Legolas Mystique: If Riv offered a limited time only, prepaid Legolas run, would you buy one?

[tc]

What's the big deal?  I have never ridden one of these unicorns, but wow, they seem to be more popular than Rodeo.  So, I'm really intrigued.  Is it simply that you can't get them any longer (or only by special order at custom prices) -- so it's appealing because you can't easily get one?  Could someone explain the use and appeal of these things?

From what I've been able to piece together, they are supreme cross bikes.  So, they're good at a lot of things.  Kinda like the Kona Jake when it came out.  

Tom

[Joe Bernard]

Thin tubes, higher BB, a name they might have decals for but can't officially provide (in fact I think they're not allowed to produce new decals). So it's a specific race bike at a custom price, which means why not just get a custom with "Rivendell" on the downtube?

[Philip Williamson]

Cross bikes are racing bikes. So most other Riv bikes would be better at more things than the Legolas, but the Legolas would be better at racing cross than most other Riv bikes.

The Legolas is a grail bike, in my opinion, because they’re just so beautiful, especially in the larger sizes. Good lugs, pretty colors, graceful spare form, and excellent graphics. The name is probably top three in the Riv pantheon.

My 45 cents, Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Mike Godwin]

The blue for the Legolas is exquisite.

Mike SLO CA

[Mark Roland]

For me, it's the look of a classic steel road-racey, drop bar skinny-tubed lugged bicycle with wide profile cantilever brakes and (relatively) skinny knobbies. Growing up with the ideal of a steel road racing bicycle, this configuration was exotic, with a good dollop of rough stuff attitude. Add Rivendell and a cool name, icing on that cake. I've only seen a couple in the wild, on group rides. Took a snapshot of this smaller size Legolas near the lunch stop porto-jonny at D2R2 2017. (If yours, claim your prize now!)

I picked up my Legolas wannabe last year, and rode it in the 2019 edition of D2R2. Mine is a Raleigh cyclocross, available "semi-production" in their early 80s catalogs, 531 with a simple lugset, rebranded and repainted in the 1984 Huffy cyclocross team racing colors. Unlike most cyclocross bikes of today, it has Rivish 44.5cm chainstays. The bottom bracket height is about 11 inches, even with the over UCI legal size 38mm Steilacoom tires (about 36mm on the skinny skinny vintage Ukai rims I used on this build). As a true racing bike, no eyelets for fenders, which would of course have rendered the bike too heavy and non-competitive. That's why my bike is faster than a Legolas, which foolishly includes them.

more photos here and also here

[John G.]

And for me (a happy Roadeo owner), the appeal lies in the idea of a similarly svelte Grant-designed bike, but with even larger tires. Fast, light bikes that preserve the manners and handling of a Rivendell are FUN. That doesn’t mean stouter, stately bikes aren’t also fun! If I could clear out my stable a bit, I’d happily order a racy custom Riv that could clear 35s and fenders. That’s basically my dream bike (based on the kind of rising my life actually allows).

[S]

Yes, that's the big deal -- they are beautiful. And maybe being racing bikes adds to the mystique. Cross was the cool bike thing to do before gravel came along.

I would buy a used Legolas if I saw one for a good price, but, all else being equal, I would rather have a custom Riv with more BB drop and clearance for bigger tires. Cross geo is for cross.

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 5:10:16 PM UTC-8, Philip Williamson wrote:

[Brian Campbell]

I ordered mine this past year when they said they had one set of decals left. and would no longer build them as anything but a custom order (different decals). I really love the ride. Steeper head and seat tube angles than my 2013 AHH, lighter build and a great ride. I couldn't say if it was "better' than another bike but I can say I love riding it. I did a 70 mile mixed surface gravel ride with it (7500 ft of climbing) and regardless of the terrain, never felt like I was on the wrong bike. Great on and off road with 32mm Compass tires.

When I ordered the frame I spoke with Mark at Riv and was able to have mounts for racks, fenders and downtube shifters added.  The second pic is with fenders (Portland Design Works) for winter riding here in SE PA. Not tons of snow but road salt is used quite a bit, so the fenders are needed for riding between December and April.. 

[S]

That's a great looking bike. Excellent choices all around, from paint to components.

[Joe Bernard]

I love that green. This matte green on Mark @ Riv's Legolas is pretty rad, too. I tried to talk myself into it for my upcoming (not a Legolas) custom but I'm not that brave!

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 11:43:50 AM UTC-8, Brian Campbell wrote:

[S]

Mark's bikes are my favorites on the Staff Bikes page. His two customs look like the Legolas, which is no surprise as Grant has referred to the Legolas as "Mark's bike."

If I were to order a custom, I would ask for the matte green Legolas, but with the changes I mentioned above. And maybe 650b.

[Joe Bernard]

His wife Amy's fuschia crosser is amazing, too. I saw it live in color once and it's shocking!

[aeroperf]

Probably not for me, because I don't bend that well anymore.

Also, you can get a wine bottle holder with these: https://www.templecycles.co.uk/  :-)

I agree the Legolas is one beautiful bike, though.

[aeroperf]

Joe made a good point - my comment was a bit obscure.

Let me ask the question a different way.  I believe (correct me if wrong) that Rivendell isn’t making Legolas decals any more because of reasons (maybe copyright)?

But you CAN get a custom with the exact same geometry, and paint job?  If you did, would it still have the “Legolas Mystique”?

So if there were a limited run (i.e. less pricey than a $4000 custom), with Legolas geometry but that had to be called something else, say, the Black Arrow, would it still have the mystique?
Because this is what I thought Tom was going for in the thread.

I posted the Temple Cycles to show that there are other beautiful fully-lugged bikes out there.

So other than collector’s value of a versatile, beautiful bike that is no longer in production, what is the thing with the Legolas?

Or is that the thing?

[Eric Norris]

Aeroperf:

Interesting thread, and I’m not sure where I fall on this one. 

For instance, I could buy a frame from a known builder (Weigle, Sachs, etc.) and pay for having a bike produced by a singular craftsman. In this scenario, you’re paying in part for the knowledge that a person—Weigle, Sachs, etc.—made that particular bike. The frame is thus more than the sum of its parts. Buying the same tubing, lugs, etc., and using the same geometry but having Joe Smith build it (assuming Joe is a skilled framebuilder) and you’re getting a nice bike, but it’s not a Sachs, for instance. 

On to the Legolas, which is more or less a production bike from Rivendell. I admit I don’t know enough about the Legolas to know if a certain builder was responsible for them, but my impression is that the frame’s “Legolas-ness” is more the result of the materials and geometry than who built it.

For a similar scenario, look to the “Rene Herse” bikes being built by Compass Cycles/Jan Heine. Jan bought the rights to make Rene Herses, and they are very nice bikes that carry on the marque’s tradition. But … if I were spending my money on one, I would look for a classic frame that actually came from the Herse shop.

So … if you copied a Legolas, what would it be? A nice bike. 

P.S. I’ve only ever seen one Legolas in the wild, in Marin County, and it was indeed very pretty.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

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[S]

You are correct -- Rivendell can no longer use the Legolas name for copyright reasons. Warner Brothers allowed Riv to use up their remaining stock of decals but that was it.

As for the mystique . . . I think everything came together perfectly on the Legolas. Geometry, graphics, lug choices. And a frame with lightweight tubing and cantis is hard to find, especially these days.

To put it another way, Rivendells are some of the most beautiful production bikes ever made and the Legolas is maybe one of their top three or four most beautiful models. Also, everyone who has a Legolas seems to love the ride, so they are more than just pretty.

Even taking into account the reservations I have about cross geometry, I regret not buying a Legolas when they were in production and cost much less than a comparable custom would now.

[tc]

Thinking out loud here, I propose that if Riv continued to offer these 5 frames, *some* of their financial worries would be diminished. Accepting the fact that I’ve enjoyed 2 glasses of Frank Family 2016 Lewis Vineyard Chardonnay:
1. Original Atlantis geo
2. Hunq
3. Legolas
4. Rodeo
5. Sam. Who on earth, who’s been right-sized, does not love this bike?? Lordy, it is so wonderfully versatile.. Canti, likely would win. OK. But sidepull is just as awesome!

I don’t care if the former Legolas is renamed. How silly to abandon an apparently bucket list design because of a copyright or trademark name issue. That’s why I’m wondering what my original post asked ... what’s the big deal? If it’s a great design, why not continue to offer it?

Wife says it’s late. Thanks for your thoughts.

Tom

[aeroperf]

OK, and I’m glad that Warner Brothers didn’t force/change the name of the bike shop, too.

I’m thinking that you folks are right about everything coming together.  Even my Sam gets compliments on the bike path by people who don’t know it’s a Rivendell, and by people who do, and it is part of the Riv attraction (though not nearly as much a part of the attraction as the ride, IMHO).  The Legolas would probably get a lot more.

And I’m right there with tc - “How silly to abandon an apparently bucket list design because of a copyright or trademark name issue.”

But re-checking the thread, I’m not finding a lot of folks who say they would sign up for the Black Arrow, even if it was a production Riv bike that was an exact duplicate of the Legolas in all but name and just as beautiful.  I guess time really does march on, and that’s not a niche that people are screaming to have filled right now.

And tc, here’s for your wine: https://www.templecycles.co.uk/collections/accessories/products/leather-wine-bottle-holder  :-)

On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 8:01:14 PM UTC-5, tc wrote:

[S]

The Hunqapillar will be offered again, in a made to order version like the Rodeo.

My understanding is that Grant retired the Legolas, Quickbeam, etc, for financial reasons. They were relatively expensive to produce and just didn't sell well enough. Rivendell has also had to move to using fewer lugs and frame sizes. That said, I hope the upcoming Charlie H Gallop is a return to the lighter, sportier Rivs of yesteryear.

[Joe Bernard]

I also had a shot at a Legolas frame held right in front of my face by the man himself (Mark) and didn't jump. I'm not even going to tell you the price because you'll be just as saw as I am right now thinking about it 😭

But would I jump on one today? Nope. They're cool, but I have no use for a cyclocross frame with 700C wheels and the flat toptube and higher BB that discipline requires. Riv makes other bikes that work better for me.

[tc]

@aeroperf, Nice wine holder!  A little classier than a king cage, isn't it.  I guess the whole Legolas thing, as you point out, seems to be so niche that it wasn't viable to offer en masse like the MIT Sam, Atlantis, Clem, -- even if the number of lugs were reduced, etc..  I, too, have gotten to the point that it would likely not be a comfortable bike for me, either.  But whenever "Legolas" is mentioned, it's like bears to honey around here.  I would have thought that Legolas (or whatever its new name would be) would be offered at a price point like the Rodeo, which is still significantly less expensive than a custom.  I guess the business case just isn't there after all.

Tom

[S]

Also, the Legolas is a racing bike and I would guess that Grant Petersen never intended to offer it long term, being as Rivendell is the "un-racer" bike company.

That said, I think a Legolas-like frame -- relatively lightweight, cantis, classic geometry -- might do well. I have wanted to buy a new frame from Riv for a while now, but I just can't get on board with the direction they have been taking, with the super long chainstays and compact geometry, etc. I know that some of these changes were forced by the market, but still, my favorite Rivs are by far the older ones, eg, All-Rounder, original Atlantis, Rambouillet, Hunqapillar, Legolas, etc.

[Bill Lindsay]

Rivendell is actively trying to drum up business for Mark Nobilette. If you’ve got a $1400 frame deposit burning a hole in your pocket and want a cyclocross race bike, I’m sure Riv will take your deposit and get your frame made for you. I’d expect the Legolas price would be really close to a Nobilette Roadeo.

BL in EC.

[Brian Campbell]

Mark Nobilette built/builds the Legolas frame set. It is Riv's design and he uses a mix of Columbus Life and Zona tubes.

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[Joe Bernard]

Bill, where is the price difference that would make Roadeo and potentially New Name Legolas cheaper than a full custom? No Joe Bell paint?

[S]

Brian should be able to answer this question, if he doesn't mind. If Bill is right, then Brian's Legolas pictured above should have cost $2,800, minus fancy paint upcharge.

[Bill Lindsay]

The price difference is in paying Grant to design a new bike. The Legolas design is done, so it’s much much cheaper than a custom. My Nobilette Legolas price was lower than the current Nobilette Roadeo. D&D did the paint.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[aeroperf]

And this thread has brought up a whole Sackville sack of questions that I’d love to see discussed by Riv folks.
This is not really the thread for it, but I’ll throw some out.

Eric’s comments about Rene Herse.
The Rivendell bikes are Riv designs whether MIT, made by Waterford, or made by Mark Nobilette.  So “Rivendells” are the design, not the shop?  Joe Smith could build it and you’re still getting a Riv?

tc and S’s comments about favorite Riv models.  Again, it appears to be the design.  Then add a number of the comments from the Long Wheel Base thread.  Specifically, changes to the design seem to put people off.  So - only some changes? 

But in his interviews and books, Grant freely speaks of going the way others don’t.  And we buy into that.  I’ve ridden an XO-1 and wouldn’t buy one, but it is certainly a classic design like we’re discussing here.  I, for one, am glad that the design has evolved.

Then there’s the aesthetic, the cachet, and the philosophy of Rivendell.  If they are having financial worries as alluded to, well, it doesn’t matter how many folks compliment a Legolas or how well it rides if Riv can’t make a profit building these types of bikes.

Will the “Legolas Mystique” apply to all lugged Riv bikes in the future?  Will Riv become mostly Clem Hs and Roadinis, leaving lugs to the customs?

Another thread for another day.  But I would buy that Fuchsia custom, above, to hang on my wall as art.  What a gorgeous bike.
 

[S]

Then that's a great deal.

[S]

Yes, Rivendells are about the design -- versatility, lugs, geometry, ride. All the builders are good, but, of course, a Nobilette frame is going to be better than, say, some of the Taiwan made frames. I have a Taiwan made frame, and even though it is nicer than 90% of the other bikes out there, there are a few brazing/finish flaws. Maybe the newer Taiwan frames are better? In any case, my Rambouillet is noticeably crisper looking.

Grant mentioned that the Clem is their best selling model, so clearly he was smart to go in that direction. All the design changes could be wonderful, for most people, they are just not my preferences.

I have never cared about any cachet or mystique Rivendell may have. I buy from them because I like their philosophy and how their bikes look and ride.

[Brian Campbell]

My frame & fork was $2,700. No additional charge for any braze-ons or paint. It has front & rear rack mounts, fender mounts, threaded rear brake bridge for fender mounting,threaded chainstay bridge for fenders, down-tube shifter mounts, pump peg and brazed on canti brake stop. The paint was done by D&D.

[Bill Lindsay]

It sounds to me like a lot of people would love a totally stock Roadeo with cantilever brakes. Riv has done canti-Roms, canti-Rams, canti-Hilsen. A canti-Roa might be the 2020 off-menu ultimate. Let’s race. First person to round up the dollars should get their order in.

BL in EC

[S]

I am hoping that is the kind of bike the Charlie H Gallop turns out to be -- lighter, shorter wheelbase, cantis.

[John G.]

EXACTLY. It’s all I want. I’m going to ask.

[S]

Theoretically, to which other models might this apply? For instance, could I order an original version Atlantis or AHH for this price?

[Bill Lindsay]

If Waterford still will build frames for Rivendell you should be able to order a Waterford Atlantis or a Waterford Hilsen. The price Rivendell charges you is the price you’d pay. Both those frames were about $2600 recently so I’m sure that’s still fairly close.

BL in EC

[S]

In case anyone else here is interested, I asked Riv and you can indeed still order a Legolas (without the name) in a standard size for less than full custom price. It is also possible to order other retired frames, eg, the Saluki.

[Roberta]

I wonder why they don't advertise that, but keep it a secret.  Perhaps put at the bottom of their bike page, next to "Custom", "Previous production frames."  Then send out an email blast.

[tc]

I agree, Roberta. This is still confusing because I was told last year by a Riv employee that I could no longer order a Hunq. So, a definitive list of specific frames would help!

Tom

[Bill Lindsay]

Tom

The problem for Rivendell is that their supplier relationships change over time.  Do you want to order a frame today?  If so, which one?  Maybe I can help you figure out how to buy what you want to buy.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito CA

[Braxton Colagross]

You can probably order nearly anything you want and I'm sure Rivendell would be happy to talk about specifics. Maybe some of the old production tubes no longer exist so it wouldn't be *exactly* the same thing but the overall design is theirs. A one-off is going to be more expensive than a stock production frame made as part of a medium size order ten years ago. But if cost is less important than getting exactly what you want...

On Friday, January 24, 2020 at 3:58:54 AM UTC-8, tc wrote:

[tc]

Thanks for the offer, Bill, but I’m good. Given Riv’s reply last year re: the Hunq, I started looking for a used one. Took a while to find one in good condition and sized right, but find one I did. Joe Bell has had it in his paint queue for a couple of months.

As for the Legolas, I was just curious.

And, as this thread has proven, there’s a lot of curiosity out there, and misinformation, about what can be ordered. The list of orderable bikes isn’t large — at least not so large that Riv couldn’t maintain such an accurate list on their web site. They are in business to sell bikes; hard to see why they wouldn’t make that as easy as possible.

Tom

[Joe Bernard]

I absolutely agree with Tom on this. If the business has bikes to sell, they should be on the website with an Add To Cart button.

[James Valiensi]

Hi,

Here is what I know.

Rivendell was asked to stop using Tolkien names after the movies came out. The lawyers agreed that the name Rivendell could remain and they could use up the remainder of the Legolas stickers, After that no more LOR references are allowed. So no more Legolas will be made. Grant doesn’t have a shortage of interesting and cool names for bikes anyways. Who names a bike Joe Appaloosa or Sam Hilborne???

Rivendell will make you a custom frame, but custom to a point. A friend of mine wanted a custom Rivendell, he loved everything about them except the sloping top tube. He wanted it dead flat (Custom road frames have a mild up-slope of 3-deg or so). They refused the order. 

Try and get disk brakes or a 1-1/8” head tube on a Rivendell custom, I doubt it will happen. 

I have a few Rivendell’s - A custom road bike, a Joe Appaloosa and a Clementine. I’ve had a Heron many years ago, but sold it. They are all great fun.  I only sell bikes because of space, otherwise I would have 50 by now.

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[Kurt Henry]

Roberta, I wonder if part of it is a desire on their part to clear the inventory they have in house.  I think Grant has mentioned needing to pay their suppliers up front for frame shipments, which is reasonable.  If they have a bunch of Clems and Hillbornes in the back and are waiting to get their money back when the frames sell, Riv would probably rather people bought those than a semi-custom at less than custom rates.  Obviously a semi-custom is better than spending nothing, for sure!  It seems like it would be a tough line to walk for them.  Do they put the information about the semi-customs out there, potentially pushing people on the fence toward something that their custom builder has to make, or do they keep it kinda quiet and hope those same people grab something off the shelf instead.

That said, I'm on the fence about the new long wheelbase Atlantis after seeing the MTB video posted recently.  I was previously turned off by the long wheelbase.  Now I'm curious.  I'd like to test ride a long wheelbase bike to see what it's like before throwing down money on one.  But a Legolas?  I've posted in the not too distant past, I think on iBob, about wanting a steel frame without disc brakes but enough clearance for 32+ (emphasis on +) and fenders.  I think a Legolas would more than cover that while being a bit racey, but I gather still not beyond what Grant would design and not something that would wear you out after 30-40 miles.  Anyone holding one care to comment on that part?  If that holds true, I gotta say I'm getting an itchy trigger finger.

Kurt Henry
Lancaster, PA

[Bill Lindsay]

Kurt

I am holding a recent Legolas. It’s got 38 knobbies on it now with nice clearance but not enough to include fenders. I’m likely going to put 35 road tires on it tonight. I’ll take a couple clearance shots of that for you if I get around to it.

Bill Lindsay
The Little Hill, Ca

[Roberta]

Kurt,

It seemed to me that if a business has something they are willing to sell (I assume at a good profit), they'd let potential buyers know. (That is just my unused marketing degree talking.  I don't mean to be armchair quarterbacking of running their business.) I wonder how many who have read this thread and now that they can put down money on their grail bike will do it.  I'd also guess that some of the potential buyers who'd want a previous model might be different buyers than those of the current models.  No company is immune from this, even the one I work for.  Some of our customers buy items from other companies because they didn't know/we didn't tell them that we ALSO sold them.

I hadn't heard of Rivendell until only a few years ago.  I test rode a few and they were all very nice.  Then, I got on the Joe Appaloosa and OMG!!!!  I purchased it right away.  I'm in Philadelphia and my Joe A. is 51 cm.  If you are nearby, I'd be happy let you ride it or my 54.5 AHH or both.  I rarely go west, but I could also meet you at Valley Forge or thereabouts.

Roberta

[Kurt Henry]

Bill, I appreciate the offer of pictures!  It you're running knobby 38s with a little breathing room, I suspect it would clear fenders around enough tire for me.  More is better, but I don't want to sound greedy!

Do you have any thoughts you can share on the ride?   I've read the Legolas billed as a race frame, but have a hard time imaging Grant designing a steep angled, high bottom bracket dedicated cross frame.  I've ridden something along those lines and really didn't enjoy it.  The whole thing of being so twitchy that it adjusted course every time I took a deep breath or pushed up my glasses made it just exhausting to ride after a bit.  If the Legolas is race-oriented by Riv standards, but still comfortable enough to take out for a few hours without feeling beat up, that sounds awesome.

Kurt Henry

Lancaster, PA

[Kurt Henry]

Roberta, I'm with you.  I'm not sure I understand the "hidden menu".  I'm sure Grant and company do it for a reason, but I don't know what it is.  My guess about pushing frames in inventory vs. made to measure is pure speculation and being curious out loud.  And I think you're right about there being some groups of people that would be in the market for one set of models and not the other.  Until recently I was firmly in the "not really interested in long wheelbase" camp.  I think I'm starting to come around, or at least around enough to be open minded about it.  

I definitely appreciate your offer of a test ride! I haven't done a good PBH measurement, but run a saddle height of ~75cm and am 5'10" (even if that darn nurse at my checkup pegged me at 5' 9-3/4" a while back, I'm claiming that extra quarter inch!!).  I suspect the sizing would be off by a bit, though maybe you've let someone my size test ride before?

Kurt Henry

Lancaster, PA

[Joe Bernard]

The trick is to imagine how Mark Abele designed his cross customs 15-20 years ago, then imagine Grant made a production model of it. This was the Rambouillet era, long before what most Rivs look like now.

[Bill Lindsay]

Kurt

As Joe correctly pointed out, Mark Abele is a very accomplish cyclocross racer, and the Legolas is 'Marks bike'.  It is still a Rivendell, no question, but It's definitely a race bike.  It's got a lower BB than some cross bikes, and it has a lot more flex and springiness than some of the ultra stiff carbon race bikes. I normally use it for familiar 1.5 - 2.5 high intensity mixed terrain rides where I want to go hard.  I sometimes use it on road rides.  I intend to use it tomorrow morning for my 40 mile hilly road commute through the east bay hills.  That's why I put the BonJon Pass Extralights on.  The East Bay trails are too mucky this time of the year.  I'll post a ride report late tomorrow morning.  I definitely don't feel beat up after riding it.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Patrick Moore]

On Sun, Jan 26, 2020 at 12:06 PM James Valiensi <jpval...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

Here is what I know.

Rivendell was asked to stop using Tolkien names after the movies came out. The lawyers agreed that the name Rivendell could remain and they could use up the remainder of the Legolas stickers,

That's actually a pretty generous concession, at least compared to modern corporate standards. I'm certainly glad that Rivendell was allowed to keep calling itself Rivendell; somehow any other name just wouldn't work.

 

...

 

Rivendell will make you a custom frame, but custom to a point. A friend of mine wanted a custom Rivendell, he loved everything about them except the sloping top tube. He wanted it dead flat (Custom road frames have a mild up-slope of 3-deg or so). They refused the order. 

Try and get disk brakes or a 1-1/8” head tube on a Rivendell custom, I doubt it will happen. 

Odd: Didn't Grant way back in the day vocally hold out for level-top tube, fistful of seapost design? I think I do recall that. Not that I care; my 2 remaining rivs have a 3* or so slope.

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 11:06:09 AM UTC-8, James Valiensi wrote:

Rivendell will make you a custom frame, but custom to a point. A friend of mine wanted a custom Rivendell, he loved everything about them except the sloping top tube. He wanted it dead flat (Custom road frames have a mild up-slope of 3-deg or so). They refused the order. 

Try and get disk brakes or a 1-1/8” head tube on a Rivendell custom, I doubt it will happen. 

Rivendell/Grant had made it clear that a custom Rivendell isn't "what the customer wants, whatever that is", but their interpretation of their style of bike, except made specifically to fit the customer's dimensions (with accoutrements like pump pegs, and other minor design features exempted). It makes sense, since part of what you're paying is your designer/builder's expertise to execute a particular design theme harmoniously, so trying to squeeze in design elements that run counter to the designer/builder's philosophy won't help things, and may in fact make things worse because you may be forcing the designer/builder to venture into territory that (s)he may not have expertise in.

[Bill Lindsay]

I have several thoughts about people's complaints about the "hidden menu".  Here's how I think about it, in the form of two parables, one made up, and one real.

Made up parable:

Imagine you owned a cheese shop.  Imagine you sell a particular goat cheese.  It's very good cheese and you have customers who like buying it and it's kind of a trademark for your business.  You call it "House Chevre".  As time passes, the supplier who sells you the cheese increases the prices steadily, and sometimes can't supply it at any price.  Your customers buy less because it is so expensive, but some are willing to order it.  Sometimes the supplier takes so long to deliver your orders that some of your customers lose patience and cancel.  It gets harder and harder to sell it.  Then, you find another vendor that has even better goat cheese.  It's flat out better (in your judgement), AND it's half the price.  The vendor is super reliable, so you have it on the shelf.  Some of your customers know there's been a change, and say "I want the old stuff, it was good"  You agree, it WAS good, but this is better and half the price.  Some of your customers insist.  Other customers of yours get annoyed that you've made it harder to buy the old overpriced cheese and complain about it on a forum.  It's true that "the customer is always right", but in the situation above, would you really keep selling the overpriced product from the unreliable vendor?  Or would you stick to your principles and continue to try to "push" the product that you sincerely believe is superior, and way cheaper?  You're kind of being a pompous jerk presuming you know more than your customers, but in reality, that's why you own the cheese shop.  

Real life parable:

In the late 1980's through early 1990's, Kona Coffee became super fashionable.  It was convincingly marketed as superior coffee.  It was super expensive, maybe $20-$25 a pound when other high-end coffees were $12-$15 a pound.  Very conspicuously, Peet's didn't sell Kona Coffee.  I knew (know) people in the upper levels of management in the Peet's organization, and those people made it clear to me why they didn't sell Kona Coffee: because it sucked.  It was objectively mediocre coffee.  Their customers demanded it, but Peet's didn't care.  They cared about curating the very best coffee in the world, (by their own judgement) and hoped enough people would appreciate their efforts enough to buy it.  They weren't going to "sell out" and supply a "just OK" product that was absurdly overpriced, despite what their customers claimed they wanted to buy.

I think Rivendell is trying to offer the best bikes they can at the best price to us.  I think they are doing things the way Peet's did things in the 1990s (Peet's has subsequently sold out on several levels, but that's another story).  I think Waterford is not a great supplier to Rivendell.  I'm not surprised Rivendell is pulling away from the Waterford models.  I owned a 56cm Bombadil, which was a good bike.  My 56cm MIT Atlantis is a better bike in every possible way and costs less than half of what a new Bombadil would cost today.  I owned a 58cm 700c MUSA Atlantis.  It was a very good bike.  The combination of my Sam Hillborne and my 650B Atlantis are better. The off-menu bikes that Rivendell should offer (and does), is the ultra fancy step-throughs: Glorious and Wilbury.  The Roadeo is out there.  The cyclocross race bike just needs a name.  I think all we're left with is a $3000 Hunqapillar frame.  Who on this thread is dying to buy a $3000 Hunqapillar.  I would not trade my 650B MIT Atlantis for a Hunqapillar in my size.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Joe Bernard]

"Odd: Didn't Grant way back in the day vocally hold out for level-top tube, fistful of seapost design? I think I do recall that. Not that I care; my 2 remaining rivs have a 3* or so slope."

Yes on a fistful of post so you could ride a level-ish toptube frame big enough to get the bars up, no on dead flat. Every Riv ever produced has at least a modicum of rise from seattube to headtube and I'm not surprised Grant wasn't going to be talked out of it. But I also doubt the story was as simple as that request...

[tc]

I think that there’s middle ground to be had here.

If Riv can find a builder that will make a frame that people are willing to pay for, and provide them with some profit (enough to make it worth it), then this is a win-win. My understanding is that already-designed frames with blueprints are simply waiting on a (quality) frame builder who has the bandwidth to make them. The “market” will decide if it’s worth it.

If I decided that I wanted a new Legolas (or whatever the new name would be), I assume the price would be somewhere between a Rodeo and a custom. It should not cost as much as a custom because the design was done long ago. It’s a matter of picking a size and colors.

I’d call Riv, ask them to pick up the phone,

[tc]

...pick up the phone, order a Legolas in size 62, color xyz, and it’d be ready in maybe 9 months. I’d get a cool bike, and Riv would make a profit. They could use that profit to run their business.

What is not realistic about that scenario?

Ford sells really cool Shelby Mustangs that cost out the wazoo. At the same time, they sell a gazillion F-150s with white paint, vinyl seats, and little base model steel wheels. They make a profit on both. They have customers for both, so they make both.

Tom

[Joe Bernard]

Which reminds me, I want a Shelby GT350 with a flat-plane crank. But I digress!

[Bill Lindsay]

As promised, this is my ride report from my first road ride on my 57cm Legolas with road slicks on the bike.  I was very impressed.  I would have no issues with using this bike as a substitute for a traditional road bike.  The Bon Jon Pass tires, which are nominally 35mm, plumped up to a full 37mm on HED Belgium C2 + rims.  The handling was stable and predictable, maybe a hair twitchier than my 59cm Roadeo.  The combination of the plump tires and the thin fork blades made for a very comfortable road feel.  I felt fresh and ready for more when I got to my office at 38 miles, 2700 feet of climbing. 

I'm attaching a couple clearance shots for those who would hypothetically want to squeeze fenders in.  If somebody was curious what it would take to get this bike off my hands, I'd sell it for $4250 without pedals and saddle.  That's substantially less than what it would cost you to build a similar bike, and such a bike would not say Legolas on it.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Brian Campbell]

This is pretty similar to my experience with my Legolas. I  am using it primarily as a road bike w/ fendrs ATM and it fits 32mm Compass tire with no issues. Mine is nit currently for sale.

[esoterica etc]

Kurt, 

I know North Carolina is still pretty far from Pennsylvania, but if you’re ever traveling south down Raleigh way, you’re totally welcome to stop by and take my 56cm MIT Atlantis for a ride. Then you can decide for yourself which side of the LWB fence you want to plant yourself on. Cheers,

~Mark 

Raleigh, NC

On Jan 26, 2020, at 14:06, 'Kurt Henry' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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