introduction and some thoughts on Riv sizing

[Joe Alter]

Hi all, 

I'm writing to you from the Roscoe Village neighborhood in Chicago.

I'm joining the group to learn more about how others are sizing their rigs. As much as I love the Clem, I’m starting to suspect I might be a better fit for a 50cm (I'm 5'6" with a shorter torso), so I’m looking forward to reading through the archives here regarding PBH and reach.

Best regards,

Joe

[Conway Bennett]

I tried reaching out via radavist too, but I'm in Chicagoland and am interested in your clem.  I just reached out via email too 

[Richard Rose]

I am not certain what the question here is? That Clem looks well sorted fit wise. Appropriate(?) amount of seat post showing with room to adjust in either direction. So the frame size seems good vertically at least? I am not a fan of PBH sizing. I know my saddle height, my preferred barometer.

Further, I am not sure what relationship there might be between PBH or saddle height & reach? 

I am 5’10” tall. My saddle height is 72.5cm. I ride a 52 Clem L with a 130mm FacePlater stem & 580 wide Bosco. I also ride a 57 Gus with a 35mm stem with a 785 wide, much less swept back (Albacore) bar. Contact points are nearly identical on both bikes with the exception of bar width. I guess my thought is if the saddle is right all else can be fine tuned via bar & stem. That said, I am no fit expert.

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On Mar 29, 2026, at 12:35 PM, Joe Alter <joe.c...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[ian m]

Hi Joe,

I previously owned a 52cm Clem (which I assume is the size of yours) and also attempted to run bullmoose bars on it when it arrived. I can also see that you have your saddle probably as far forward as you can get it, and IIRC the odd seatpost size makes finding a silver zero setback seatpost nigh impossible. 

The sad reality of the Clem is that the reach is far too much for each model size. The 2017 52cm model had an effective top tube length of 61cm(!) and amazingly they've only gotten longer. 

For comparison, my 55cm Crust Lightning Bolt (the only bike I use drops with) has a reach of 370mm. The 52cm Clem has a reach of 412.5mm. The reach on the newest models is 431mm on the 45cm model!

I was never even comfortable with Albatross bars on my Clem, and eventually sold it.

[Richard Rose]

Regarding Clem’s having too long of a Reach; not if you run Bosco’s. I am of average proportions & am running a 130 stem with Bosco’s! The reach is perfect. The Bullmoose in question has what, 90-100 extension? That combined with not much sweep would be problematic.

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On Mar 29, 2026, at 4:10 PM, ian m <darkg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Joe,

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[ian m]

Yes the Clem's were I think initially designed around using the Bosco bars. I personally am not a fan, and I would argue that a frame intended to use such extremely swept back bars would require too long of a reach to use anything else.

Worth keeping in mind for the OP if wanting to downsize to a smaller Clem: if it's a newer model you may actually end up with MORE reach than you currently have.

If you need to use an extreme swept back bar like the Bosco, you may as well try it on your current Clem to see if you like it before downsizing to find you need to do the same

[David Ross]

The bike looks like it fits to me, and well within the range that the contact points can be made to work. One thing thing to add is that you don’t really need a setback seatpost on any Rivendell due to the slack seatpost tube. You’ll be able to move the saddle forward approximately an inch with a straight post. Just an idea. Otherwise, you’ll need to experiment with different stem/bar combos. You can get really close by measuring where you want your hands to be and then backing into it. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/DAFC338C-F090-4E28-BF41-F468ACECDBC7%40gmail.com.

[Joe Bernard]

Echoing what others have said, that's the wrong bar for your height on a 52cm Clem, I'm your height with the L version of the frame and Boscos on a shorty stem are almost too far away. 

[Kim H.]

@David, 

"One thing thing to add is that you don’t really need a setback seatpost on any Rivendell due to the slack seatpost tube."

Au contrairie, I own 52cm Clem Smith Jr. "L" bicycle, I have a long torso and short limbs. This bicycle fits and suits all of my needs with Nitto Bosco bars. I have a Sakae Ringyo MTE-100 seatpost on it, This adds a lot more comfort and allows me to sit further back onto the rear wheel and not directly over the BB. Everyone has a different body and customizes their bikes to fit their body portions for comfort. 

Kim Hetzel. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CADA0aDdvDaF-Mhxeb5QfkC-cZ3haoAkuP%3D9wJy8mxFHCzz2%3DMA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Zachary Cannon]

You've asked a difficult question, because it sounds like you aren't quite comfortable on your Clem. For me, that means that your picture could be indicative of a lot of different things, not all of which would be fixed by a change in bike size. It's easier to see a bike that's been made comfortable for a rider but has a particularly long, short or high stem/saddle, and consider how the bike could be made more comfortable.

It might be worth trying to dial the fit that works for your body first, and then decide which size and model of frame best aligns. Little things make a big difference for me in fit, such as raise or lowering bars and my seat 2-3mm at.a time. Adjust stem reach and saddle setback bit by bit, along with their angles. Once you get that all dialed in through trial and error and perhaps reader up here and elsewhere on fit, it might be clear what frame optimizes the fit your want.

Having lived in Chicago for many years previously, I think it's a location that demands a good fit because the lack of hills means you tend to ride in the same position all the time. 

I hope that helps and doesn't feel like a dodge. 
Best, Zach in ABQ 

[Garth]

The Clem in question has no rider, so commenting on the bike alone doesn't say anything. Even if the owner Joe, was on it in the photo, that still doesn't say much because there isn't some sort of mythical "picture perfect posture" that everyone is supposed to model. Photos don't/can't speak to what is experienced within. 

Like many if not most cyclists, you end up trying many bar and stem combos, let alone saddles, seatposts, pedals and well everything else for the bike. Buy 'em and see what fits. Sell what doesn't fit or keept it for later when it may, or you get another bike. 

[Joe Bernard]

The owner Joe of a 52cm Clem L again verifies that the stretch to a Bullmoose on a 52 H (which I've also owned) for a 5"-6' guy is indeed too far. As Ian stated these bikes were designed around Boscos, the OP would need a 45cm Clem to use the bar he has.  

Joe Bernard 

[Richard Rose]

I was thinking the same thing- that the Clem was designed around the Bosco/Tosco. However, I think the reach on my Gus is equally long? On it I use a bar with much less backsweep (LekerLeks Albacore). In order for it to work for me I needed my stubby 35mm stem. So I think I could do something similar on the Gus? I was actually talking to Will @ Riv about this same topic. He was wanting to try a less swept back bar with a stubby stem on a Susie.

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On Mar 29, 2026, at 4:49 PM, ian m <darkg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes the Clem's were I think initially designed around using the Bosco bars. I personally am not a fan, and I would argue that a frame intended to use such extremely swept back bars would require too long of a reach to use anything else.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ef6ad48d-40b7-430d-9fa6-378ff5e43d1en%40googlegroups.com.

[Richard Rose]

Zach, very true! I am in Northwest Ohio - same topography as Chicago. And yes, I ride for hours in the same position. I am rarely out of the saddle & almost never move my hands. And yes, a lot of fiddling resulted in the current touch points. One thing that absolutely did not work for me on my Clem - a BoscoMoose! I wanted it so badly to work, but not being able to dial in the grip angle made that impossible.

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On Mar 29, 2026, at 11:51 PM, Zachary Cannon <zsca...@gmail.com> wrote:

You've asked a difficult question, because it sounds like you aren't quite comfortable on your Clem. For me, that means that your picture could be indicative of a lot of different things, not all of which would be fixed by a change in bike size. It's easier to see a bike that's been made comfortable for a rider but has a particularly long, short or high stem/saddle, and consider how the bike could be made more comfortable.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/c5941b05-ef2c-44b7-82ee-60e1313abeecn%40googlegroups.com.

[Andres Guerra]

I have the same bike in 45cm and those bars will make the 45cm reach to long even in a XS CLEM. Start with the albatross bar and get some cheap stems until u find the the right fit for u. Cheaper than buy a new bike

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On Mar 30, 2026, at 9:08 AM, Richard Rose <rmro...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was thinking the same thing- that the Clem was designed around the Bosco/Tosco. However, I think the reach on my Gus is equally long? On it I use a bar with much less backsweep (LekerLeks Albacore). In order for it to work for me I needed my stubby 35mm stem. So I think I could do something similar on the Gus? I was actually talking to Will @ Riv about this same topic. He was wanting to try a less swept back bar with a stubby stem on a Susie.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/90FC5AF9-D17B-4547-B46A-3C65EE59230F%40gmail.com.

[Joe Alter]

Hi all,

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback; there's definitely a lot to digest here. The original build actually had Bosco bars, and based on your comments, it sounds like I probably should have stayed with those. 

Best regards,

Joe

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[John Johnson]

Hi Joe,

Fellow Clem owner and also 5'6" (shorter legs, longer torso). For all the talk of "joyously upright", the Clems have a very aggressive stack/reach. You need a very swept back bar if you want to get upright. 

My experience: I had a 2019 Clem 45 H and was very comfortable with bullmoose bars (the Nitto fillet brazed version, with an "effective" 150mm stem length, 30° sweep). I tried Boscos and didn't have room for my knees. There is no way I could straddle a 52cm Clem H. 

I also have a 2019 Clem 45 L (with 26" wheels, pre the 27.5" on the 45). There was a geometry update to the Clem L in late 2019, and that's the kind I have. AFAIK, the geometry did not change on the H. With the updated geometry, the ETT on the Clem L is 625mm - the Clem H had an ETT of 575mm. Both the L and the H have a reach over 400mm. Bikes that fit great for me typically have a reach under 400mm (17" Black Mountain La Cabra or 52cm XO-1). For this longer ETT Clem L, I needed a swept back bar to make it comfortable. Albatross bars were too much of a stretch, but Toscos fit the bill (on 80cm stem). 

In summary:

I am your height, but have had 2 Clems in the size smaller than yours. 

Due to the geometry differences between the Clem H and Clem L, I could not run swept back bars on the Clem H and I cannot run bars without a significant sweep on the Clem L. 

I think you could keep your bike and try changing your bars to something more swept back. 

Or 

You could try finding a Clem H 45cm (from 2019 - I think that's the last year they were made) and you'd probably be good with the bullmoose bars you have. 

Or 

You could try a newer Clem L 45cm (could use your wheels, etc.), but you'd probably want a swept back bar. 

Cheers,

John (somewhere in the middle of France on a TGV)

[Richard Rose]

I think this is sound advice & do not disagree with any of it. But what about trying a very short stem vs. the effective extension on the bar pictured?Possibly even a “zero” extension stem like those from discord? FWIW, I rode my 52 Clem L 25 miles yesterday with the 130mm FacePlater stem & 580 wide Bosco’s. One of the things I really like about this bike/configuration is the room I have for my knees. It’s the roomiest cockpit I have experienced on any bicycle. The hand position on the Bosco’s is the “palms on table while seated” as espoused by Grant - very upright. 100% delightful! All I am suggesting is if the reach is too far in the current configuration move the bars back. With all of the stem & handlebar options available there must be one that can work for you?

Rich in Toledo, loving every millimeter of my Clem L for its first four years & 10,000 miles.:)

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On Mar 31, 2026, at 11:51 AM, John Johnson <johnemer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Joe,

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/967093a7-5b7b-43e1-85a4-25b5f0f26689n%40googlegroups.com.

[Dave Johnston]

Judging by the saddle height it looks like the standover height would be fine, the 2019 sizes were 52 and 45 (a 7cm differnce), so I think the problem is the handlebars with built in stem is limiting your ability to dial in the reach. Somebody suggested an Albatross, but I use those on normal top tube bikes, for that style bar I would recommend the Billie bar which is similar to the Albatross, but has longer hand area so comes back further towards you. Hopefully you have a stem or two to start with. I try a few and sometimes don't put grips on for awhile or just wrap the grips with drop bar type tape until I figure it out.

On Sunday, March 29, 2026 at 12:35:32 PM UTC-4 joe.c...@gmail.com wrote:

[Dave Johnston]

I see your bike on the Radivist, but I wouldn't sell you old bike until you can find a replacement, or try harder to make the Clem work for you. They don't make the Clem any more and are hard to find. If you do sell, you should consider keeping all the parts and swapping them to a new frame like the MIT 50cm Atlantis or 51cm Appaloosa both of which have shorter top tubes, but a new frame alone will be $1800 and a complete new build with the same parts you have can easily add another $2000 .

-Dave J

[Conway Bennett]

I did end up buying this bike.  I'd describe it as long, low, abd short relative to the Hunqapillar it may be replacing.

Fair winds,

Captain Conway Bennett
239.877.4119

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[Conway Bennett]

I'll add it has some nice details like the baseball bat top tube, ball and socket seat cluster, and straight seat stays.

Fair winds,

Captain Conway Bennett
239.877.4119

[Jim M.]

If you like the solid stem of the bullmoose, you might want to try the boscomoose. It's out of stock at RBW, but it looks like Blue Lug has them.

jim m

walnut creek ca