An attempted RoadUno reconfiguration failure

[Bill Lindsay]

My first instantiation of my 58cm RoadUno was as a 14-speed, as immortalized in Will's email update.  I used my wheel set which has a customized 120mm O.L.D. cassette hub which fits 7 cogs from a 9 speed cassette, updated with 10-speed spacers on what was traditionally a 5-speed spaced rear hub.  Naturally we call it 7of9with10on5.  

I had it set up that way for a Mount Diablo Summit, and having done that, I wanted to reconfigure it with the stock wheels for normal city use.  I put the stock Saint Jump wheels on there, with a White Industries freewheel, using my Suntour rear derailleur as a tensioner.  

Pics prove it:

https://flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/54022678302/in/dateposted/

Problem was that in the stand, the chain was wanting to rise off the cog on my brand new DOS ENO freewheel.  It was worse on the 19 than the 16, but clearly it wanted to rise off on both of them just pedaling.  Weird.  I attributed it in part to the goopy factory lube on a brand-new SRAM 870 chain, and lubed it up and went to bed.  In the morning, I tried it out in the stand again and it was still riding up the cog.  I went into my freewheel box and found a USED White Industries single freewheel, 18T, and fired that on.  In the stand, that was perfecto, and that's what is in the photograph linked above.  

I rode down the hill that night to the local family grocery store for cilantro and few mushrooms for a soup.  Turning back up the hill, DISASTER.  Under load, the same riding up and skipping was happening.  I took the most shallow slope back up the 400ft hill to my house, and put the bike up in the stand.  

I returned the 10-speed spaced chain on there, that I had been using with my 7of9with10on5 configuration, and rode that around the block.  Same skipping under load.  

I called it a failure and put the 7speed rear wheel back on, which is still perfecto.  

My top hypothesis is that in a tensioner configuration, the system wants more tension from the tensioner than my 35 year old Suntour RD is providing.  I may experiment with shortening the chain to the minimum length for the two-speed configuration.  Some Suntour Rear Derailleurs have two different holes for the spring, so one can effectively make the spring a little stronger.  That would be experiment #2.  Finally, I may borrow the Paul Melvin from my 3x1 Romulus, to see if that's a far better tensioner.  That Romulus 3x1 drivetrain has been perfect.  For now it's a two speed, but it is running on the 18T cog of a 7sp cassette.  

Maybe this is all just the universe telling me to buy a purple anodized Melvin?

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[P W]

That's interesting Bill. 

While finishing mine this week I ran into the same or similar issue using an 8pd chain, Paul Melvin and a White Industries 46/38 upfront.

The freewheel in question was old and not great, mind you.

I tried using an old Dura Ace RD instead of the Melvin. Same issue.

I replaced the shitty freewheel with a new White Industries 19T and reduced the chain to the shortest length I could get away with and still shift gears smoothly in the stand.

I've only ridden it around a few blocks, unloaded, so far, but it's now as smooth as smooth could be.

I'm surious to see, based on your experience, if it feels the same way tomorrow on its maiden, longer voyage... I'll throw a few things in the basket just to load it down some and put it through its paces properly...

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Philip M. Watts

(917) 514 2207

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[Edwin W]

Bill,

If god wanted you to use a tensioner with a single speed, she wouldn't have created track ends. 

Seriously, I will be interested to hear how this shakes out, and what you discover, as it is a bit baffling why a multi gear freewheel will work and a single speed freewheel would not. 

Edwin

[Ryan]

Philip after shortening chain and putting on a new 19t WI freewheel , did you use the Melvin, the Dura Ace or nothing as a tensioner?...since you're just shifting between the 2 front chainrings?

[Dan]

Have you been reading Bike Snob? He had the same skipping issue, and it boiled down to a worn freewheel. It went away when the freewheel was replaced. 

[Ryan]

Although I guess, with an 8-tooth jump on the front you do have to have some kind of tensioner

[P W]

Ryan, I stuck with the DA.

Because vibes.

P. W.

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On Sep 26, 2024, at 2:53 PM, Ryan <ryte...@mts.net> wrote:

Philip after shortening chain and putting on a new 19t WI freewheel , did you use the Melvin, the Dura Ace or nothing as a tensioner?...since you're just shifting between the 2 front chainrings?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/959442f2-ffdf-49b5-a765-e9ac57749d31n%40googlegroups.com.

[Bill Lindsay]

My first freewheel was a brand-new DOS ENO 16/19 and that was super bad in the stand with respect to wanting to climb up off the teeth.  

I've got lots of freewheels to experiment with, so that'll be on the list.  

[TP H]

And your chainline is straight and not at an angle that would make it want to roll off the freewheel I assume?

[Brent Knepper]

hey Bill I am curious if you've ruled out chain problems sans any derailleur/tensioner? like have you seen if you experience the chain wanting to jump in a traditional singlespeed configuration where there is no derailleur/tensioner, and instead the chain is tensioned by pulling the wheel back in the track dropouts? perhaps also 2 or 3 variations of the amount of slack in the chain's tension for observation's sake

I would be inclined to try that as like a control group- maybe you already have, in which case definitely get a fancy purple ano part ˘ᵕ˘

-bk en ny

[iamkeith]

This is perplexing me.  I was wondering if using a multi-speed chain (meant for shifting) on a single-speed cog tooth profile might me the issue.  I'm not sure it is, but White Industries does say that chain selection is critical.  Without doing my own mental deep dive into the specifics of your configuration, you might want to look at the following blurbs from the W.I. website.  

On some freewheels they say they have to machine nothes/troughs into the central part of the freewheel housing, between the teeth, to allow certain chains to engage fully, without riding up.  In other cases, they cannot add that notch.  In BOTH cases, only certain chain profiles will work.  Kinda sounds related to the problem you're experiencing:

Note: All freewheels can use either 3/32” or ⅛” chains except 16T ENO single and all DOS ENO double freewheels (see FAQ below)

FAQ

• Why can’t I run an ⅛” chain on the 16T freewheel? 

• • Because of the size of the driver and the bearings inside the gear, we are limited in how small we can make the diameter of the base of the gear.  On the 16T you’ll notice a groove machined on the base next to the teeth which is needed to clear even a 3/32” chain.  For an ⅛” chain that groove would need to be a bit deeper to allow the chain to fully seat down on the teeth but we can’t make the groove deeper without sacrificing the strength of the gear.  Running an ⅛” chain will prematurely wear out the chain and gear.

• Why can’t I run an ⅛” chain on DOS freewheel?
  • Because there’s not enough room in between the teeth for the wider ⅛” chains

[Bill Lindsay]

Thanks for all the responses offering suggestions.  I'm comfortable with the general approach of debugging complex systems.  When a complex system works, it means ten different subsystems work.  When a complex system does not work, it could be any number of those subsystems not working.  

Anyway, here's what I did:

I took "perfect drivetrain" 3x1 Romulus down and put it in the stand

I noted it has the identical PC870 chain as the RoadUno

I removed the 18T White Industries ENO freewheel from the Romulus 

I removed the questionable used 18T White Industries ENO freewheel from the RoadUno rear wheel

I installed questionable ENO freewheel onto the Romulus wheel and rode it around the block --> bad skipping

I installed the known good ENO freewheel onto the RoadUno and rode it around the block --> perfecto

I finished up the RoadUno into its 2x1 configuration

I disassembled the "bad" 18T ENO freewheel and will start shopping for a new drive ring from White Industries

I installed the brand new 16/19 DOS ENO onto the Romulus --> bad skipping in the stand

I installed a 16T Sturmey Archer freewheel onto the Romulus and rode that around the block --> perfecto

So, I had TWO bad White Industries freewheels.  The 18T ENO I bought used, and didn't pay much, and it's just toast.  No problem I'll buy a new drive ring for it and it'll be good as new.  It's a good opportunity to buy a different tooth-count.  The 16/19 was one I bought new from White Industries, and it was the LAST 16/19 they ever sold.  I suspect it was a drive ring they had laying around and it's actually out of spec with THICKER teeth than normal so a derailleur chain doesn't fit great on it.  It has other manufacturing glitches on it.  Maybe I can get them to give me a 16/18 DOS ENO drive ring on warranty.  I'll do some measurements first and decide how to proceed.  Either way, weird, but my bikes are all sound.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Stephen Durfee]

Bill, I'm not familiar with the DOS ENO freewheel and I don't have a Roaduno or other single, but I'm SS curious, and I've read your musings on the system you ran on a Crust LB, where you combined the 16/19 with 35/38 chainrings, and it sounded like a very cool and clever set-up as it eliminated the need for a derailleur or chain tensioner. 

Is it possible to rebuild your existing freewheel with new rings?  Also, since the 16/19 configuration is no longer available, is it possible to (cost, not-withstanding) customize a freewheel, maybe to disassemble a 16/18 and a 17/19 and turn them into a 16/19? 

[Bill Lindsay]

White Industries DOS ENO freewheels have the two cogs machined into a single monolithic piece.  There's no taking a single ring off and reassembling it into some other configuration.  See this page:  https://www.whiteind.com/product/freewheel-outer-gears/

What I'll try to do is see if White Industries will warranty the 16/19 and give me a 16/18 in its place.  I'm already going to buy one to replace this worn out single 18T.  

BL in EC

[Bill Lindsay]

I took an objective measurement on my questionable, warranty-candidate 16/19 DOS ENO freewheel.  First I removed a known-good 16/19 DOS ENO freewheel from another wheel.  I measured with my 0-1" micrometer the thickness of the 19T cog on both.  

The known good one measured 0.090"

The questionable one measured 0.100"

Note that these are both intended to take derailleur chains, known as 3/32" chains.  3/32" is 0.09375".  So the known-good one is a hair thinner than 3/32" and the questionable one is roughly two hairs thicker than 3/32".  That seems to me like an unambiguous manufacturing goof.  Hopefully my retailer (Mike V at Black Mountain Cycles) can convince White Industries to give me some kind of replacement.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[DavidP]

I'm glad you got to the bottom of the issue. It's reassuring to me that the root cause was the freewheel, as that makes for 2 of 2 cases that I've heard of 2x1 drivetrains skipping being resolved by changing out the freewheel. (Eben Weiss ran into the same thing on his Roaduno.) The fact that you had the issue with a NEW freewheel made me wonder if this was going to turn out to be a different issue, but I don't think anyone was expecting the NEW freewheel to be bad.

Too bad about the 16/19 DOS ENO though, hoping it gets sorted for you.

-Dave

[Corwin Zechar]

An 8 tooth jump between chainrings does not necessarily require a tensioner.

One example of such a build is my Quickbeam as originally delivered. The Quickbeam had 32 and 40 teeth chainrings with a 22 tooth freewheel. No need for a chain tensioner as the dropouts supplied enough travel for the rear wheel to take up all the slack in the chain with either the 32 tooth or 40 tooth chainring.

Regards,

Corwin

[Stephen Durfee]

My understanding is that the Roaduno, with its horizontal dropouts, does not allow one to slide the wheel back and forth without also requiring an adjustment to the rear brake pads. The QB, with slanted dropouts, did not have that same problem. 

I don't have either bike, I'm only repeating what I have read. 

[Isaak Oliansky]

General question here for the assembled geniuses: how are folks figuring their chainlines on 2 x 1 Melvin setups? Centering the rear cog between the two chainrings? I need to measure mine; my immediate thought is, how is one supposed to achieve a good chainline in this sort of setup where you're inherently not getting a straight chainline?!  

I have to say, for all of the apparent simplicity that a Melvin setup has been beckoning to me with, I have been spending a lot of time faffing around in the workshop! The OP has my sympathies and I wish them well in their faffing. 

[Bill Lindsay]

Front chain line on a double is the imaginary mid-point between the two rings.  You're using a 3/32" derailleur chain.  As long as you are splitting the difference you are already doing MUCH better than anybody's derailleur bike with respect to chain line.  

To MEASURE chainlink, you use a caliper.  A very cheap one is fine.  Like this:  https://www.acehardware.com/departments/tools/measure-and-marking-tools/measuring-devices/20970

Measure from the inside edge of the drive side rear drop out to the center line of the cog.  That distance is X.  The chainline is (OLD/2) - X. So on my RoadUno, the OLD is 120mm, and X is 16mm, so the rear chain line is (120/2) - 16 = 44mm which is vanilla "road" chain line.  

In front measure the distance from the seat tube to the mid line between the two rings.  That distance is Y.  The chainline is STdiam/2 + Y.  So on my RoadUno, that Y distance is 28mm and the seat tube diameter is 28.6mm, so the front chain line is (28.6/2) + 28 = 42.3mm

Within 2mm front chainline to back chainline is super.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

P.S. My "faffing" was just the bad luck of having two bad freewheels: one worn out and one an objective manufacturing defect.  

[Ray Varella]

Hey Bill,

Out of curiosity, do you know if WI machines the cogs in their Petaluma shop?

If so, would it be possible to send it to them to machined into spec. 

When I’ve been picking up freight Nextdoor to them, it looks like they have a pretty well setup shop onsite. 

It might be worth asking since that configuration is no longer available. 

Ray

[Bill Lindsay]

White Industries is a full on machine shop there in Petaluma.  

They are not set up to re-work a part.  Particularly not a discontinued part.  If they let me keep the bad one, I'll attempt the rework on my own.  I'm in the process of buying a 17/19 drive ring for one freewheel, and getting a warranty 16/18 for the other.  

BL in EC

[Bill Lindsay]

For those following the saga, there's an update.  I received a 16/18 drive ring on warranty and bought a 17/19 to restore my worn out 18T freewheel.  Both those new freewheels are built up and ready to use.  

Here's a weird pricing anomaly:  A single White Industries ENO freewheel is around $120, which is premier freewheel pricing.  A DOS ENO goes for $150.  That's a $30 premium for a second gear, which seems reasonable.  

For a replacement outer drive ring/cog, a single is $62 and a double is $74.  That's a $12 premium for a second gear.  

If anybody EVER had a worn out ENO freewheel, why would you ever NOT buy a DOS ENO outer ring?  I can't think of a reason.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Ray Varella]

One possible reason is not knowing the doubles and singles use the same body. 

Up until I read this post, I was not aware the parts were interchangeable. 

With a single chainring up front, is the chain line quite in both cogs?

Ray

[Bill Lindsay]

If I ever I build a bike with a single chain ring, I'll report back.  Do you have a reason to believe why it wouldn't be quite?  Or quiet?  We're talking about a 3/32" chain, aka a derailleur chain.  

Bill Lindsay

[CJ]

I have a bunch of singlespeed bicycles and a bunch more "traditionally" geared bikes. Dingles, 2x1, 3x1, etc. fall into an "uncanny valley" for me. As you know, with a singlespeed you're (almost) never in the right gear. You make do. With a double or triple, I know I'd find myself frustrated, always wanting to be in the "other" gear, only to find it's not right, either.

So, to answer your question, I would not buy a DOS ENO outer ring if I wore out the ENO ring.

CJ

[ian m]

I loved my eno dinglespeed I had when I lived in Oakland. A nice tooling around town gear and then switch to the inner ring and cog to climb the Berkeley hills. Then I moved to a much hillier locale and sold it almost 10 years ago. Would love to build a budget version but doesn't seem like there are any other options for cogs. Suntour made a 16/18 I think for BMX but it wants a 1/8" chain while I'm trying to run 36/38 on the outer rings of a mtn triple.

[ian m]

Also looks like WI is discontinuing the double chainrings when they run out of current stock. Too bad, may have to pick one up just incase I find a deal on cranks

On Wednesday, October 9, 2024 at 7:44:28 PM UTC-4 CJ wrote:

[Ray Varella]

Mostly out of curiosity Bill,

In the decades I’ve had fixed gear bikes I have yet to flip a wheel despite having a flip flop hub. 

I bought a Roaduno and I’ve been riding a lot and have debated putting a tensioner on it and there’s the option of a dos eno. 

I’ll likely stick with it as a single speed until the freewheel dies. 

Ray

[Bill Lindsay]

Frustration!  LOL, OK thanks for playing.  I think of them as usable consumable parts.  I think of the extra $12 for a DOS ENO outer ring is like buying double the mileage before they are both worn out.  That just seems like a good deal.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[P W]

Why do you think this?

As in: they will no longer be producing VBC rings?

P. W.

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(917) 514-2207

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On Oct 9, 2024, at 5:22 PM, ian m <darkg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Also looks like WI is discontinuing the double chainrings when they run out of current stock. Too bad, may have to pick one up just incase I find a deal on cranks

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/908d20de-bbad-4344-a11a-ade33d593419n%40googlegroups.com.

[ian m]

On Thursday, October 10, 2024 at 8:45:55 AM UTC-4 philip....@gmail.com wrote:

Why do you think this?

As in: they will no longer be producing VBC rings?

[P W]

Ah, I was worried you were referring to the VBC system.

Apologies for the thread derailment…

Carry on!

P. W.

~

(917) 514-2207

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On Oct 10, 2024, at 6:26 AM, ian m <darkg...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Thursday, October 10, 2024 at 8:45:55 AM UTC-4 philip....@gmail.com wrote:

Why do you think this?

As in: they will no longer be producing VBC rings?

<eno.jpg>

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