High and wide versus low and narrow drop bar for off road riding

[Patrick Moore]

Cross posting because, while the iBob is the bigger list, the RBW list
is the home of high-bar afficionados.

This is at the moment only an inquiry, but I wonder if I can get a
better compromise bar setup on my Matthews 1:1 to maintain comfortable
pavement cruising but gain more slow-speed, narrow-trail, sandy-soil
control.

Right now I have what for me is a wide-ish bar, a RH Maes Parallel 42
cm at hoods and 44 cm at ends set about 5-7 mm below saddle with 10 cm
stem; this compares with 38 cm MPs 3 cm below saddle with 8 cm stems
for my road bikes. All give me me very comfortable pavement positions,
with the wider, slightly higher and wider 42/44/10 cm giving a
slightly more upright position on dirt.

Is there any way I can maintain a comfortable pavement/hardpack
cruising position with a higher and wider bar that will give me better
slow speed control on narrow, bumpy, soft singletrack? I don't ride
technical stuff except, but I do encounter not infrequent narrow,
bumpy sections of acequia trails bordered closely by fences and trees
on one side and 4' dropoffs into ditches on the other side, often
eroded and crossed by tree roots.

I think of wider and closer for better slow speed control on the
hoods, with a sufficiently deep hook to allow a comfortable hard
surface cruising position. I've tried many -- at least half a dozen,
from the original WTBs to more modern, wider wide flared dirt drop
bars up to about 660 mm wide, and never liked them, even when
positioned higher than road bars, but perhaps I've not tried high
enough.

I repeat: I have repeatedly found very wide setups uncomfortable.

I may be asking for incompatible setups, but does anyone have any ideas on this?

I'd like to stick to drops.

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Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Richard Rose]

I would make an inquiry with the folks at Analog Cycles. They are the dirt drop experts, esp. regarding upright positions.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 14, 2022, at 3:23 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Cross posting because, while the iBob is the bigger list, the RBW list

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[Garth]

So it sounds like you're looking for a "just right for you" balance between a wider bar and it's height for your given bike and your inherent riding sensibilities. I word it that way because cookie cutter formulas and cliche's are really good for selling clicks on the web pages but they all fail to apply directly to any specific rider and their unique character.

I may be off here but I sense you're almost forcing yourself to ride "upright", though again that word is so generic as it implies a rigid, locked in and unforgiving position that completely ignores "the how" we all position and move as we ride a bike. Again it's that "how" that is unique to every-one, and it's never the same twice, as nothing is ever the same twice ! 

All that said, since you've tried mega wide bars, what about simply a slightly wider drop in the style you already ride ? A Salsa Cowbell Deluxe comes to mind. The flare is slight so the width in the drops is small and there's no weird brake lever angles. Having had a Nitto Dirt Drop 013 the slight wider flare of the Cowbell would be nice.

https://bikepacking.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/salsa-cowbell_1-2000x1333.jpg

https://bikepacking.com/index/gravel-bars/

Salsa Cowbell

• Width: 380, 400, 420, 440, 460mm
• Flare: 12°
• Drop/Reach: 115mm / 68mm
• Outsweep: 12° drop angle
• Full Width: 433, 453, 473, 493, 513mm

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks Richard, good idea; I'll contact Analog. In fact what got me
thinking about this was looking at someone's -- Analog's? -- very wide
but very, very short reach and drop drop bar on a very short stem. I
also want to talk to them about the Tanglefoot.

Garth: Thanks. The problem is not that I'm forcing myself to sit up
higher than the bar comfortably allows but that the bar feels too
narrow for slow speed handling, especially with the fat (61 mm), soft
(20 psi) tires. I "feel" I need more leverage. In fact, I've been
thinking I ought to try riding this one particular section (about 2'
wide, fence and big Cottonwood on West, path sloping to ditch on East,
roots and erosion) in the hooks and see if that gives me more control.

But you may be right that the solution might simply be to get the bar
a bit higher and regain the bank angle by bending my elbows more.
Perhaps flipping the -17* stem (high head tube!) upward and getting a
46 cm version of the same bar might work ...?

[Jim's stem calculator says that this will put the bar 56 mm higher
and 17 mm closer than with the stem flipped to -17*; anyone care to
guess how much reach would be regained with a bar 4 cm wider?]

At any rate, I'm looking more for others' ideas and setups and not
only bar types. I've used the Cowbell (I think; I know I've used the
Woodchipper), the On OneMary, perhaps another modern wide, flared bar,
as well as various iterations of the old WTB flared bar, its Nitto and
Specializeds cousins, as well as the Noodle up to 46 cm, and didn't
like any; BUT -- here's the reason for my question: I may find that I
like or don't mind wider bars if properly high and close; and it's for
this that I'm seeking others' thoughts.

I have a favorite "bend" at the hips when I ride the hoods and hooks
(which my current setups give me) and I'd like to keep that but -- as
I said -- with more slow speed control on sketchy sections. My brother
has fallen into one of the local irrigation ditches and I want to
avoid that fate!

[Jason Fuller]

So, I tried the Crust towel rack (narrow version) and it gave me neck pain but the 50cm Simworks SoBar (basically a 50cm Noodle) works beautifully for me; a 48cm Nitto Noodle is the closest still-available option. I have somewhat broad shoulders for my size but I'm not a big guy, so normally I'd run a 42 or so. Everyone is different, but I recommend this bar highly in as wide as your body will allow - the control of a wider drop bar off-pavement is undeniable. And the Noodle is such a classic and still hard to beat shape IMO, especially coming off a randonneur style bar 

[Benjamin Park]

Here is my setup. I use the tops for technical singletrack and steep descents. The cross levers work really well. They are Crust Towel Rack (v1) large 666mm size.

If I could tweak it I would narrow the ramps a touch and flare the drops a bit more- basically towel rack v2!

On Sunday, January 16, 2022 at 5:24:37 AM UTC-5 KenP wrote:

Crust Shaka bar, 54mm?

[Patrick Moore]

Once again, thanks all for the comments and suggestions, and for indulging me in my public ruminations on what is, after all, a very personal and idiosyncratic problem. I still hope to talk to Analog about this, and about the Tanglefoot.

Riding the bike in question today on mixed pavement and sandy dirt surfaces -- Matthews 1:1, I asked C Matthews to make me a "road bike for 60 X 662 + fenders or 584 X 76 + fenders with acceptable Q; this currently has 60s + fenders and 160 mm Q -- it just feels so right for firm surfaces, light sand, and the broader dirt paths. I am currently convincing myself that what I have been asking for for is basically incompatible, and that I will be better served saving any $$ for new bars and stems for an eventual (God willing) replacement for the Monocog, designed for upright riding with a bar wide enough for careful control in slow-speed, sketchy conditions.

Or/And: learn to handle the Matthews better. There is one particular stretch with narrow, canted surface between tree and fence and ditch, with erosion and roots, that segues into a very narrow -- 18-24" -- "crowned" surface that curves to the left along a leftside ditch, for which, riding the Matthews, I'll often get off and walk, while on the Monocog I'll breeze through it without qualm. I daresay that, if I were not quite so timid on narrow offroad surfaces, the Matthews would get me though just fine -- I am timid on technical stuff, tho' I used to be a buccaneer in traffic.

Anyway, thanks all; will report if anything of interest results.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2022 at 1:23 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Patrick Moore]

Not entirely On Topic, but not entirely Off Topic, either. Just came across this on the CR list and pass it on for those of you not subscribed. Jobst Brandt and friend on singletrack circa 1987.

Wonderful! Makes me think I simply need to Man Up.