To 10 speed or not? a compatibility question

[Drw]

ive been running shimano road bar ends, dura ace, i think, in friction mode with a 9 speed very large cassette and XT mountain derailler. Works fine, but i have a hard time dropping into a low gear when a steep spot sneaks up on me. I bought some microshift 10 speed mtn bar ends a while back, not because i want to go 10 speed, but because i wanted a bar end that would index with a mountain derailler and large cassette. i was getting ready to pull the trigger on buying a new 10 speed derailleur/cassette to pair with the 10 speed shifters...

...Then i realized microshift has their 9 speed advent line. So, questions.

-if its truly compatible, it seems the easiest thing to do would be just change out my dura-aces for the microshift advent bar ends, and keep my current cassette and derailler. They say they are shimano compatible, so that means with shimano derailler pull rations and stuff?  am i missing something? i'd rather not get into any sort of extra bits that make things compatible. id like a clean system.

-is there a benefit, im not thinking of to go 10 speed? i dont find myself lacking speeds. indexing is really what im looking for. i know that can be heresy here, but ive been frictioning for the last decade, so ive done my time. 

-anything else, im not considering?

Thanks!

[Joe Bernard]

Aside from any other compatibility issues - I believe an Advent shifter only clicks an Advent derailer - a different bar-end is not likely to solve your problem with getting into the largest cassette cog. Something else is preventing your derailer from wanting to make that stretch.

[Drw]

I shouldve been more clear. I can get into the lowest gear just fine, but in friction, searching around for those low gears, and knowing your fully in them, when you just hit an unexpected steep spot can be tricky...for me. id like to just be able to click it and know where im at. 

[Joe Bernard]

Hmm, you must not have 9-speed Shimano bar-ends then, maybe it's 8 and that's why you're not using the clicky side. In that case you need 9-speed but not Advent. You can get Shimano 9 bar-ends, or this Microshift (NOT Advent).

Be aware that both are technically for Shimano road and I've only ever used the Shimanos with mountain derailers (it works).

https://northwestbicycle.com/products/microshift-bar-end-shifter-set-9-speed-road-double-triple-shimano-compatible-silver-ld0109?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&gclid=Cj0KCQjw1Iv0BRDaARIsAGTWD1ssIAw7ffyMvbpMGqsFqjojwe6U340Z3CDdFwHbtLEMSGERrhMAC64aAq64EALw_wcB

[Drw]

I’m surprised you’ve succeeded with a 9 speed road shifters with a wide cassette and mtb derailler in index mode. My own experience with this didnt work very well (and now that I’m reading, most internet advice says this won’t work).

I’m no expert, so I’ll defer, but you are saying a shimano index 9 speed road shifter will pull the same amount of cable to work a 42t mtn cassette+xt derailler?

[Joe Bernard]

Ah, I'm probably dating myself on mtb knowledge/experience. No, a 9-speed road shifter won't click those newfangled Dynasys things, which I'm sure is what you're using to run a 42t cassette. It works on the old stuff like Riv sells.

So to go back to the beginning: If you want to use a 9-speed Advent shifter with that cassette you'll need the Advent derailer, too. I don't think any 9-speed bar-end works with your derailer, and I don't know anything at all about 10-speed stuff.

[Nick Payne]

On Wednesday, 1 April 2020 16:47:24 UTC+11, Drw wrote:

I’m no expert, so I’ll defer, but you are saying a shimano index 9 speed road shifter will pull the same amount of cable to work a 42t mtn cassette+xt derailler?

Prior to Shimano going 10-speed, road and MTB both used the same cable pull, so a 9-speed road shifter will correctly index with a 9-speed MTB derailleur across a 9-speed cassette - or vice versa.

With 10-speed, you can use a 10-speed road shifter and a 9-speed MTB derailleur to correctly index across a 10-speed cassette. I've successfully used an XT 9-speed SGS derailleur and 10-speed barend shifters to index across a 10-speed 11-40 cassette. Depending on the length of the derailleur tab on your dropout, it may work with 42t - only way to know is to try.

You can't use a 10-speed road shifter to index with 10-speed MTB derailleur, as Shimano changed the 10s cable pull for MTB components.

With 11-speed, Shimano road and MTB cable pulls are still different, and Shimano also changed the road cable pull, so the 11s road shifters won't correctly index anything with a 9- or 10-speed derailleur. However, the Ultegra and 105 GS 11-speed rear derailleurs will cope with an 11-40 cassette, though officially they are only rated to 34t. So you can use an 11-speed road shifter and road derailleur and still get pretty wide gearing. See for example, https://road.cc/content/feature/246424-how-get-ultra-low-gearing-gravel-bike-adventures.

Nick

[Steve Palincsar]

I don't know about the derailleurs capable of dealing with a 42T cassette. 

However I do know that a Deore XT M751 SGS 9 speed rear derailleur works perfectly with both 9 and 10 speed indexed bar end shifters and will work just fine on a 9 speed 12-36 cassette that has been turned into a 13-36 by replacing the 1st position 12T with a 1st position 13T sprocket.   I have two bikes with that derailleur and 9 speed bar ends with the 13-36, and I have one with 10 speed bar end shifters with a 10 speed 12-32 cassette.

I also have friends with Shadow 9 speed MTB rear derailleurs and 10 speed road shifters with 10 speed cassettes with 36T large sprockets.

On 4/1/20 1:47 AM, Drw wrote:

I’m surprised you’ve succeeded with a 9 speed road shifters with a wide cassette and mtb derailler in index mode. My own experience with this didnt work very well (and now that I’m reading, most internet advice says this won’t work). 

I’m no expert, so I’ll defer, but you are saying a shimano index 9 speed road shifter will pull the same amount of cable to work a 42t mtn cassette+xt derailler? 

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Drw]

Ok thanks all. Looks like I’ve got some tinkering to do.

[Joe Bernard]

Apologies for my not very helpful helpfulness. Sometimes my desire to help solve a bike problem runs up against the fact that 9-speed and v-brakes happened in the '90s and I'm still using that stuff. Doh!

[Drw]

It’s all helpful to me. I frequently run into issues and it’s always a toss up of whether I’m a naive mechanic or if there’s a compatibility issue. I’ve been making bikes the riv way for a while, but that way sort emphasizes mix and matchableness over understanding modern standards