Homer 6 months review and questions

[atreya...@gmail.com]

I have had my homer for 6 months . After lot of experimenting , obsessing qnd tweaking i am almost 99% there ( in the process I have a mini nitto shop with almost all variations of handlebars !which I will try to find a good home for when I get  to it ) . The more I tweak and better it gets,  more I obsesss , funny how that works !

I love this bike ! It is super comfortable but yet super responsive in handling . I am invariably smiling and instantly in a good mood every time I ride it even if just for 10 minutes! 

It feels super nimble and responsive compared to my Atlantis ( which is my first love and forever bike for different reasons ) and want to further differentiate between the two .So this brings me to my question 

1. Compared to my Atlantis it weighs just 4 lbs less (28 vs 32 ) . How much of this handling difference is due to weight compared geometry and tubing stiffness ? I am also pretty light weight between 160-165 lbs so might be little more sensitive to weight changes on bike . 
2. If it’s weight ? Is it worth to chase some more weight savings ? I want to set it up as lightweight go around town for fun type of bike while Atlantis would do longer touring/hauling , trails etc. I am surprised when I see numbers close to 25lb or under . I have no racks or fenders , so where can those weight saving come from ? I am not willing to sacrifice comfort ( pedals and leather saddle ) and definitely not my kick stand :-) . Below is my current set up 

Size : 54.5 

Wheels : pacenti brevet with son28 dynamo and 

Tires : RH squanomie pass standard (tubeless)

Shimano hub ( I have realized the use case for dynamo for my riding is pretty limited so wouldn’t mind losing it ) .

Crank : silver cranks 42-28 

Brake set up : Paul racers and canti levers

Cock pit : albatross bar , nitto talux stem .

Appreciate your thoughts !

 

[deepak atreya]

Here is pic from my evening ride today :-)

Cheers ,

Deepak

On Jul 25, 2022, at 21:14, atreya...@gmail.com <atreya...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Roberta]

Deepak,

Congratulations on your Homer/Atlantis combo. I had a Homer/Appaloosa combo, with nearly the same setup (and same order of ownership), size and impressions as as you. I think these two bikes complement each other well.  I even did the lightening up process. I’m glad I did because it helped both bikes ride better, yet still different from each other. Love the dynamo lights and tubeless.  I rode both bikes equally.  You can read about it here:

https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/pWpMrkiVUlk/m/eVByOom6CQAJ  

The only thing I changed after the project was that I put the original choco moose handlebar back on th Appa, as that bar was the perfect bar for me on that bike. 

I’m still in love with my lively riding Homer but sold the Appaloosa to have room for a Platypus. The decision to sell the Appaloosa rather than Homer was that I don’t ride off-road or tour, not that I didn’t like it’s smooth buttery ride. 

Btw, bikes can lose a lot of weight for free with lighter saddles, smaller bags, lighter or no fenders and racks. I have a 1.25 lb vs Nitto 2.5 lb rack. I changed Flyer for Selle Anatomica. Banana sac vs Carradice bag. Some items are worth the weight, like your  aforementioned kickstand—so darn practical. 

Roberta

[brendonoid]

Your Homer looks perfect and I would second everything that Roberta has just said.

Looking at your build in that photo the only things you could lose weight on are all utility comfort things.

The saddle, Dyno, kickstand and brass bell are all weight saving opportunities but also things that I personally would consider 'worth the weight'.

[Steve Cole]

Deepak,

What a wonderful ride.  I have both a Homer (Toyo) and an Atlantis (MIT).  I love them both.  First, I wonder whether the under-25 pounds figures you have seen are for Toyo (1st gen) or Waterford (2nd gen) Homers.  They had different geometry and used different tubes that may explain the gap between your 28# and the 25# yo've seen.  

Second, I often think about replying to questions about how one might cut the weight of their bike but have never replied.  I strongly believe how one builds their bike, the components they select, should reflect its intended primary use.  If going as fast as you can (e.g., racing) is paramount, cutting weight without sacrificing strength, handling or safety is sensible.  On the other hand, as is the case for me, if you ride for exercise, fun and health, I can't think of a good reason to look for ways to pare the bike's weight.  How much bike/rider weight you push around, as Grant Peterson has noted, is mostly a reflection of the rider's weight even in your case. In addition, pushing around a  25# bike is a weight savings to you of only about 1.5% of total (bike+rider) weight.  While this is pretty negligible, the added weight should be better for health, strength, stamina, etc.  Not much better, I admit, but this thinking has stopped me from focusing on weight and not the joy of riding.

I don't know whether this is any help. I hope so.

Steve Cole

Arlington, Virginia

[Jason Fuller]

Very nice!  I had the same thing happen with the Nitto parts bin :) 

Weight plays a surprisingly small part of the experience of riding a lighter bike. Most of the benefit of the lighter tubing is how it performs due to the thinner wall thickness (resulting in a "snappy" feel from light flexing), and the geometry differences between the two. The few ounces saved in the process are quite secondary. 

That said, the same logic tends to apply to other parts - even though the mass difference might not do a lot by itself, it can result in a quicker action (ie a derailleur with less inertia to its moving parts) or better feel (ie less rotating mass in your wheels, reducing the gyroscopic effects fighting your steering input) 

[Roberta]

Jason,

I often wonder how much of my lightening up project (I only did what was practical) that brought me so much more joy in riding was that I got better rims and tires, so the bike just rode better.  Many people in my original thread pointed that out.  I'm still glad I did the full project, but none of us here are weight weenies--we ride Rivs, happily, after all. 

Roberta

[atreya...@gmail.com]

Thanks Roberta. That was a very interesting read. How convinent are those kick stands? 

PS: I have choco moose on my Atlantis. I love them! It introduced me to chocos and I think they are my # favorites right now. But I am thinking of swapping to regular chocos as they dont play well with my stem bag. 

[atreya...@gmail.com]

Thanks Brendonoid. I agree! Brooks saddle, brass bell and  kickstands makes the bike so much more fun and useful.  Though I am not using the dyno nmuch I think I will leave it alone. It always there when I need it

[Max S]

Well, I made the mistake of purchasing a fish scale and weighing my bikes recently... The lightest I had was ~20 lbs, fixed gear at that, and there I was thinking it was crazy light. But they are all ~ 59 cm frames and threaded steerer forks with tall stems, fattish tires, and no krazy karbon bits (even the pair of carbon wheels I have are super deep and weigh ~1,500 g). Guess what – my fastest times up some local "climbs" are on the lightest of my bikes, especially when I am running the aero wheels. No surprises there. The nicest "feeling" bike is my fixed gear – until the week that a dirt road gets re-graded, and then the skinny 30 mm tires make it a bit too... under-bikey. An

Anyhow, I think it's fun to consider what weight savings can be obtained. People have almost always made the mistake of conflating safety with weight or comfort with weight or reliability with weight. If you read Henry Ford's biography, he talks about this quite a bit, and one of the greatest things he accomplished for breaking that conventional trade-off was to use lighter, yet stronger steel alloys. The cars got lighter, they became more reliable, less expensive to operate, etc. Much the same thing happened when people started drawing lightweight steel tubes for bicycles – using heavier-walled gas pipe does nothing to help your bike be more enjoyable, comfortable, or reliable. Same with pneumatic tires – lighter weight, more comfort than solid rubber tires. 

So, let's consider the extra weight carried by some of the "comfort / utility" driven components and decide if it's worth it... Some ballpark numbers, give or take: 

Kickstand – 0.5 lb to take it off – I rarely find kickstands increasing my enjoyment of cycling. 

Tires – 0.3 lbs for lighter (35 mm) tires – lightweight tires *can* be more comfortable and faster rolling!

Dyno – 0.6 lb to switch to regular front hub – hey, 3-10 watt savings in drag right there! 

Lights – 0.5 lb to switch to battery powered LEDs – same brightness, less weight, less bulk, occasional charging, why not? 

Bars – 0.5 lb to switch to lighter (e.g., straight bar) – some people find non-sweepy bars more comfortable, believe it or not! 

Saddle – 1 lb to switch to modern plastic / carbon saddle – some modern saddles are remarkably good! 

Seatpost – 0.25 lb for lighter options – as long as it doesn't brake and puts your saddle in the right position... 

Cranks – 0.5-1 lb to switch to lighter crank & bb (e.g., SRAM Red) – it just works. 
Cassette & Derailleur – 0.5-1 lb differential for some combos – lighter bike, now you can pedal bigger gears for those hills! 

Everything else on a "diet" (brakes, headset, bell, skewers, levers, shifters, etc.) can be futzed with to get another pound. 

So, I think you can get things lighter weight, down to about 24 lbs, with those substitutions, and it wouldn't even cost you any net extra, if you sell the items you substitute – may even come out cash positive. William Lindsey has a thread about making his Legolas sub-20 lbs with conventional components. The only real difference from his build and what the above substitutions would produce is that the Legolas frame & fork & stem combo would shave ~2-3 lbs more of yours. 

But just having lighter and skinnier tires will make it feel a lot sprightlier. 

- Max "going fast is also fun!" in A2

[atreya...@gmail.com]

Thanks Steve.  I really don't care about speed , I think the speed difference between my homer and atlantis at my level of fitness is probably 0.5 miles / hr :P . I like the nimble handling of homer and super stable /smooth feeling of atlantis  (depending on my mood )

[atreya...@gmail.com]

Bingo! Well said. I think what I am chasing is the handling or response on my homer. The actual weight I don't really care much.

[atreya...@gmail.com]

Wow thanks for the detailed response Max!

I am still on the fence with  dyno and lights ; along with that , seat post (may be Thompson masterpiece )  and cassette I think I can shave off another 2lbs without sacrificing on comfort/utility. But still debating about it.

[Roberta]

It took a few tries rearranging the stem bag connections to make mine work. 

The stickstand worked very well but wasn’t practical enough for me, when leaving and coming back home. Bikes are in my small living room behind a chair. Take off stand and move bike around chair to open area. Stand on. Open front door and gate, stand off, take bike outside (90* angle to get through narrow front door), down steps, stand on. go back to lock door and gate and then leave, stand off. The opposite to return.   

If it weren’t for the inconvenience of getting in and out my front door (THAT is my real annoyance) , I’d have kept I that stand. It worked very well and I used it for about a 1 1/2 years. I would recommend it for lighter bikes like Homer and Sam, not for longer bikes like Platypus. Greenfield kickstand now on both bikes only because it’s annoying enough just getting out the front door and easy to just kick the stand.  

I did like that the weight wasn't on the bike when I had to lift it and saved about 1/2 lb. 

[Scotty H]

I'm not a bike designer, but the weight gain seems easy to understand. Extending the chainstays for more wheelbase means having to beef up the tubing. The trade-off for a "better" ride is more weight. In other words, if you flatten out the traditional diamond frame shape, you need heavier tubes to keep the same strength.

[atreya...@gmail.com]

My Atlantis with chocolate moose is little slow steer compared to my homer . I love the moose for aesthetics and all the additional mount space . Is the slow steering function of handlebar , geometry , tires , headset ? Or all of the above .

[Patrick Moore]

As usual, hit "send" before completing the sentence. I meant to say: a very similar ~1990 top end Diamond Back rigid was very, very sweet but unexceptionable and very pleasant in the transition between straight line and turn when shod with 26 X 60 mm Big Apples ...

On Mon, Aug 1, 2022 at 5:51 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

...  OTOH, a very similar ~1990 top end Diamond Back rigid was very, very sweet but unexceptionable and very pleasant in the transition between straight line and turn; again, sedate by road handling standards, but in fact much like my second-gen (blue) Rambouillet with 29 mm Challenge Parigi Roubaix

[Patrick Moore]

Geometry, probably, but tires too can very noticeably affect handling. First instance: My 2020 Matthews 26" wheel road custom that is a clone of a 2003 Riv Road custom: I first built it up with 28 mm Elk Pass extralights (175 grams), then switched to the design-goal 42 mm Naches Pass extralights. I immediately noticed that the bike felt less "nimble," even if it didn't feel any harder to pedal. Yes, narrower tires can make a bike feel noticeably easier to change direction. I don't know how much is due to width and how much to weight: the EPs -- only come in EL -- are 175 grams, NP ELs are 300 grams.

Instance 2: I rode my brother's 26X55 mm drop bar'd mountain bike after riding my 29X2.3" drop bar Fargo -- 700C X 60 mm Big Apples. The Fargo easily kept up with the 26er on fast-ish flat and twisty singletrack, but man, what a difference in "feel" between the 2 bikes in quickness to change direction; again, "nimble."

Instance 3: 30 years ago I had hot-rodded ("all roundered") high-end fully rigid Specialized Stumpjumper Comp and Team with 3 wheelsets: 22 mm 26X1" Specialized Turbos, 32 mm 26 X 1.5" Specialized Fatboys, and 50mm 26 X 1.95" knobby dogs that you got back in the early 1990s.

They handled very nicely indeed, if rather sedately compared to road bikes, with the 50s, handled acceptably with the 32s, and with the 22s they were very awkward: didn't want to track straight, and when your turned into a fast corner, they wanted to track wide while being nervous. OTOH, a very similar ~1990 top end Diamond Back rigid was very, very sweet but unexceptionable and very pleasant in the transition between straight line and turn; again, sedate by road handling standards, but in fact much like my second-gen (blue) Rambouillet with 29 mm Challenge Parigi Roubaix.