In your opinion, what's missing from the Riv lineup?

[Jason Fuller]

Pardon the idle-mind pondering, I am home sick today and becoming bored, which has me daydreaming about a collaboration I've been trying to ignite between Ocean Air Cycles and Rivendell to bring back the Rambler as a MIT, tig-welded all-rounder that could hit that $900 - $1050 range price point based on other TIG Riv's.  

To me, there is a big hole in the lineup where a TIG frameset in the Homer / Hillborne range of sportiness belongs; something much like the OAC Rambler was (which had long stays for a non-Riv, too). I also believe this would be a strong seller, competing more directly with Crust, Surly, etc. 650B / 700c depending on size, clearance for 48's, mid-weight tubing, works with drops or swept bars. 

I imagine this kind of bike, but with modern Riv twists, is coming up soon - hopefully!

[Jason Fuller]

Also, in case it comes across otherwise, this isn't meant to imply any negativity towards the current lineup as it is - we just all have our preferences, right? Certainly one of the things that's made Rivendell what it is all these years is not worrying about too many other people's opinions!

[Chris L]

I don't know if there is any demand, but I would love to see a mid-size (mid to upper 50's in size) bike with moderate chainstay length, 26" wheels and a long ETT length.  Like an Original 56cm Atlantis stretched 3 to 5 cm on the front-end and maybe a little in the back. 

Probably only missing from RBW's lineup in regards to my personal preferences.  

[Joe Bernard]

A Clem L Cargo. Which is almost long enough to be one now, just add an integrated rack and footboards.

[Patrick Moore]

A butcher's bike. I've been waiting for this model since late 1994. This could really set the Rivendell brand apart.

Lugged, of course. With basket made by Scandinavian dwarfs.

Patrick Moore, who quite seriously has been intrigued by these things since about 1970 -- One like this used to sit outside a Nairobi butcher shop.

[Mike Packard]

Civia had a great one called Halsted that is sadly discontinued: https://civiacycles.com/bikes/archive/halsted

This one looks pretty legit: https://www.raleighusa.com/lorry/

mike

[Dave Grossman]

Single speed!

[Mark Roland]

The Crust Cargo fork looks a bit weird, but it will ride better than the vintage truck bikes.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, all. Someone else suggested a Soma Tradesman, which does indeed look more rideable than the old rod braked one, and named Yasujiru, which Googling, brought up this page; lots of choices!

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=yasujiro+mini+cargo+bike&t=ffab&atb=v167-1&ia=images&iax=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F236x%2F86%2Ff0%2F62%2F86f062f3dd8dc14b766743d89296dfac--bike-packing-cargo-bike.jpg

But alas I have 2 bike -- not quite projects, but hopes, in the queue before anything like this.

[hugh flynn]

I agree with Dave - It's the single-speed option that's missing from the line-up. 

I've been getting by with a Surly Cross Check set up as a fixed gear for the last 22 years, and I've missed every opportunity that Grant has offered to buy a SimpleOne/QuickBeam over the years, but should they return to the line up, I'd be sure to grab one. 

Hugh "hoping for one more batch of QuickBeam's for old time's sake" Flynn

Newburyport, MA 

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Hugh Flynn
Newburyport, MA

[John G.]

The 4K semi-custom completes they teased on the Blahg.

[Adam Leibow]

I think they should widen the tire clearance on a Homer, but keep the lighter tube spec. This would be an all-day rider (not a tourer) but with 2.2" clearance for extreme fire roads and easier single track, a la Crust Bombora or Black Mtn Cycles monster cross. Perfect bike for a mixed terrain brevet. 

[BSWP]

MUSA pants with solid pockets and un-weird gusset colors, that's what's missing.

- Andrew "Not bitter, just certain," Berkeley

[John Bokman]

A canti Sam Hill with 26" rubber. I find my 700C about perfect, but for one thing: I experience toe clip overlap in constant stop and start urban riding (I use fenders). I would also appreciate the quickness of getting going with 26" wheels. I realize 650B would get me the same lack of overlap, but I always liked my 26" wheeled bikes and would like to ride another one.

On Thursday, February 13, 2020 at 10:40:23 AM UTC-8, Jason Fuller wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

A new Nobilette All Rounder with 26" wheels would be cool.

[Julian Westerhout]

I'd agree with the idea that a Nobilette All-Rounder would be fine, but in 650b --- 26" is starting to fade on all but the low end. It seems good tires, etc. more likely to be found in 650b, or, as the Kool Kids say, 27.5".

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Joe Bernard]

That's an Atlantis. I was responding to the fellow imagining a new 26" wheel bike.

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

I’d be curious how many would be interested in a long tail cargo bike but based on the current Clem dimensions. My guess is the Yuba Boda Boda is about the same dimensions as a Clem.

https://yubabikes.com/cargobikestore/boda-boda

One size, 26” wheels for people 5’2”- 6’2”

A family and utility bike that has some nice esthetics, dedicated rear and from racks. Front rack would be bolt on to make shipping reasonable (bolts to headtube/frame)

The market is tiny and niche even for Riv, however.

A fat tire (50mm) single speed also sounds delicious.

[Brian Campbell]

Any touring/rough stuff frame they currently offer with disc brake option. I have no interest in disc brakes but the frame would allow folks who require them to buy a Rivendell; that would help Rivendell stay afloat financially.

[Patrick Moore]

If Grant were to put a 26" wheeled All Rounder on the market again, I wonder if that might not help initiative a return to market of decent 26" wheel tires other than knobbies and heavy "city" tires? Rivendell designs have driven trends before ...

There was a thread on the Boblist which mentioned a surprising number of decent 559 tires in the 32 to 48 mm range.

Patrick " helplessly hoping " Moore, who has an investment in 26" road wheels.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[john Bokman]

Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking. Remember when Riv was one of the few (only?) to offer a bike spec’d with 650B? They were committed to getting some tires out there, and though we had to wait a while, the industry followed their lead. If Riv wee to design another great 26” wheeled all-rounder, perhaps it would spark interest in great 26” tires. I for one don’t think 26” is dead just yet. What comes around….

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[Julian Westerhout]

The current Atlantis is not what I'd think of as an All-Rounder. The old Atlantis and the original All-rounder were. 

My proposed Nobilette All-rounder would be a 650b analog to the proposed Nobilette specials are a return to something more closely resembling the 700C Rivs of a decade ago with room for bigger tires. 

[Jason Fuller]

Toe overlap is one of my gripes with a lot of Riv bikes - while it's generally a product of appropriate geometry, rather than a design input, as mentioned wheel size is a big contributor and IMO if you've got anything more than slight overlap, then the wheel size is incorrect.  

IMO any bike with generous tire clearance should be 26" up until ~53cm, then 650B up to ~59cm, then 700C after that.  Much like chainstay length should be proportional to a frame size, so should wheel diameter.  ***Of course my cut-off sizes are totally estimated and depend on the bike.  That would mean at 5'9" I would generally ride 26" for fatter tired bikes and 650B for skinnier tires bikes.  

I'd love to see more 26" option frames from Riv as well.  Especially ones that are designed to be towards the sporty end of the Riv spectrum vs. heavy-duty.  Imagine a sporty (but comfy) 26" version of a Quickbeam that fit 2.3"!  

[Patrick Moore]

One's reaction to TCO -- or rather, "TO" -- is very personal. Grant has said more than once, in effect, "It's not a big deal." Obviously it is a big deal to some people, but it is not in itself a design defect and does not mean in it self that the wheel size is incorrect.

My personal preference is that of Grant; TCO is not a big deal for me. I've ridden fixed gears with fenders and lots of TCO in urban traffic for years with no problems more than the annoyance of having to pay a bit more attention to what I am doing. Although I ride 26" wheel road bikes -- Rivs in fact -- I prefer "twenty nine inch" for dirt; my Matthews "road bike for dirt" -- designed to have "sort of" road handling with 29 1/2" tall tires with fenders (700C X 60, fenders 85 mm wide) has about 3" of TO and I get by in dirt; not very technical, but then this is not a mountain bike, either.

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[Patrick Moore]

I should add that I've never, in what, 24 years? of riding fixed with TCO -- and even more years riding fw with TCO -- never had an accident due to TCO.

[Jason Fuller]

Fair enough Patrick, I have had bikes with varying amounts and I should have been clearer that I think some toe overlap is OK for me (ie my 51 Sam has some when I run fenders) and I've also never had an accident due to it (also rode fixed a good while on a bike with a fair bit of overlap) but I do find it an annoyance that I'd really prefer to remove from my riding experience - particularly on a bike I load up

[Chris L]

I follow R&E in Seattle almost as close as I follow RBW and tend to agree with their philosophy that there is no reason for a bike to have toe overlap.  They tend to design around wheel sizes that eliminate toe overlap and they also go the "more fork rake/less head angle" route to eliminate toe overlap.  They developed their own aluminum fork with 55mm of rake (vs the common 45mm fork) but they also build custom forks, as needed.

I think it's cool that Grant redesigned my size Atlantis with 700c wheels and a long top tube with more fork rake and less head angle.  I bet that has tons of toe clearance, even with the fattest tires that will fit.  

I'm fortunate that I ride flat bars exclusively and my proportions require a bike with a longer top tube so I can run huge tires on my Hunqapillar (much more conservative in front-end dimensions than the new Atlantis) with no toe overlap.   My grail bike is pretty much the old 26" 56cm Atlantis but I know from experience that a 57cm ETT just won't work for me.

[john Bokman]

I think overlap is “not a big deal” if I’m out on a sport ride, not hauling baggage, not constantly stopping and starting in traffic. But when I’m on an urban commute or grocery haul, it becomes, not necessarily “a problem” but a hassle I’d rather not have. Not a deal breaker, certainly, just something I’d rather avoid. 26” wheels offer lots of advantages for such riding.

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[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:02:31 AM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:

A new Nobilette All Rounder with 26" wheels would be cool.

Isn't that a SWB Atlantis nowadays?

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 9:25:52 AM UTC-8, Julian Westerhout wrote:

The current Atlantis is not what I'd think of as an All-Rounder. The old Atlantis and the original All-rounder were. 

My proposed Nobilette All-rounder would be a 650b analog to the proposed Nobilette specials are a return to something more closely resembling the 700C Rivs of a decade ago with room for bigger tires. 

AFAIK, the original short wheelbase (SWB) Atlantis is still available as a special order. Presumably, you'll get it made by Mark Nobilette. The only additional change would be to switch out the 26" or 700C wheels, depending on frame size, for 650B. I have no idea how much work that is, although there is already existing work for adapting 650B with the MIT Atlantis.

[Kevin Lindsey]

Convinced that I'd never find an original All-Rounder in my size, I recently asked Grant for permission to have Nobilette to build one for me with the original lugs, tubing, etc., and he nixed the idea.  He was very nice about it, but said that he would want to add "improvements" (not further specified), and for that reason would not authorize anyone to re-create one of the original ARs.  Which was just as well, as not a week later I found and bought a 1999 AR.  Anyway, in case anyone has the idea of seriously asking Riv to recreate the AR (or, presumably, any of the older models), expect some pretty firm push-back.

Kevin Lindsey

Alexandria, VA

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 11:36:24 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

If Grant were to put a 26" wheeled All Rounder on the market again, I wonder if that might not help initiative a return to market of decent 26" wheel tires other than knobbies and heavy "city" tires? Rivendell designs have driven trends before ...

There was a thread on the Boblist which mentioned a surprising number of decent 559 tires in the 32 to 48 mm range.

Patrick " helplessly hoping " Moore, who has an investment in 26" road wheels.

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 7:36 AM Julian Westerhout <weste...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd agree with the idea that a Nobilette All-Rounder would be fine, but in 650b --- 26" is starting to fade on all but the low end. It seems good tires, etc. more likely to be found in 650b, or, as the Kool Kids say, 27.5".

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:02:31 AM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:

A new Nobilette All Rounder with 26" wheels would be cool.

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[Joe Bernard]

To clarify, "new Nobilette All Rounder 26" to me doesn't mean an exact recreation of the original. I'm thinking in terms of Grant's proposal that the new Nobilette production frame be in-between newest and oldest designs. I'd ditch the horizontal dropouts for vertical, for example.

[Jason Fuller]

Yeah, I expect Grant could vastly improve the AR without changing or losing the plot.  While he's built some very long bikes lately, I have to assume that Grant would still make a bike with lightweight tubing, relaxed-sporty geometry including medium-length stays.  I hope so, at least! 

[dustin schaber]

I want to chime in here with my 100% agreement. My CLEM is a wonderful workhorse and even does well when pressed into AZT service. I'm going to keep this bike as long as I can. My wife has one. My stepfather rides one. I'm endlessly on the hunt for a used 45cm L-Type for a close friend, though that's proving to be a rare bird. 

Still, I'd like to pick up something spritely for commuting when I'm running behind schedule. Sport touring. I've long appreciated Rob's work under the OAC brand (like MANY others) and it also occurred to me that the Rambler would do well with a MIT production run (so much of Rob's work sought to collaborate and bring up domestic builders, which is delightful). Touring bike in front, something racier in the rear. Long. Comfortable. But springy tubing that doesn't deign to pass an EN test. The Homer approaches I suppose but I'd like to run 2" tires since the roads 'round these parts are broken up and full of vehicular wreckage swept into the path of bikes.

Anyways, I'm with you. Maybe the return of the Sam will get my wallet out. Until then, I'm going to continue considering whether or not the new 55cm Atlantis could be my "fast" bike.