3-speeding Quickbeams and SimpleOnes

[Patrick Moore]

There have been threads recently about 2- and 3-speeding Quickbeams and SimpleOnes using multiple chainrings, front derailleur, and rear chain takeup device. I'm curious why people don't use Sturmey Archer AWs? The AW has (per late '90s study by the Human Powered Vehicle Association) as little drag as a clean, well set up derailleur system, and an IGH preserves the simplicity and clean aesthetic of a ss or fixed gear, barring a small cable and shift mechanism.

Pray, why the choice of multiple rings, fd, and rear tensioner? Is it the big jumps in the AW gearing?

Long ago (1990 IIRC) I set up a beater Schwinn 3 speed as a poor man's mountain bike (my companion's Diamond Back was recent with only 6 rear cogs) with a 36 to ring to give, with the 18 t AW cog, 69", 52", and 39" gears, and it did good service on 1 well-remembered ride on very hilly jeep tracks -- and an aside: the Ashtabula crank was a miracle of cheap and durable manufacturing compared to the cottered system.

But 69"-52"-39" is a very useful gear spread.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Joe Bernard]

I think what happens is people like the bike, then gradually realize one or two lower gears might be nice. For most of us adding a derailer and tensioner is a simpler path than having the rear wheel rebuilt (folks who build their own wheels can disregard). 

[Patrick Moore]

Very good point, and one I had not considered. Yes, much easier to add rings and fd and tensioner than an IGH, and even simpler than adding 3 rear cogs since that would in most cases also require a wheel build (unless you find a rare 3-speed freewheel and respace and redish your rear wheel.

Patrick Moore, very acutely realizing the benefit of 1 or 2 lower gears in ABQ, NM.

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[Jamie Hascall]

I did like my little White Industries Dos ENO freewheel when I was commuting in Santa Fe. Bigger cog for uphill going to work, and little one for a fast ride home. I just ran across it in a box of parts and may need to find a home for it. Couldn't change while moving but it worked for me at that time.

[Jim M.]

My QB came with a double chainring and flip flop hub, so that was far easier for multi-speeding than a new S-A hub and wheel would have been. And I know it's only about a pound difference between an AW and a Shimano flip-flop hub, but I'm weenie enough not to want that extra weight. But if I had an AW wheel, I certainly would have tried it.

jim m

walnut creek

[Drew Saunders]

My orange Quickbeam came set up as a "2 speed" with 32-40-chainguard chainrings on a 74/110 triple (still has those) plus an 18t freewheel.
I immediately made it a "3 speed" with a 17/19 Dos Eno freewheel. The chain is too slack for the 32/17 to work, so only 3 options: 40/17 (99% of my riding), 40/19, 32/19.

I later added a 22T freewheel to the flip side of the flip/flop hub, which will work with the 32, but not the 40, so I have an extremely inconvenient 4-speed.

I rarely take it out of the 40/17, but the headwinds this morning made me wonder if I should have used the 40/19.

All of that was much cheaper and easier than getting an internally geared hub, and if I did go for an IGH, I'd get a modern 7 or 8 speed anyway.

On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 1:57:29 PM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

In defense of the old 3 speed igh, the drag, at least for the old SA AW, has been tested at considerably less than that of much more complex, multi-epicycle internal gear trains with 7+ gears, and my experience (considerable with 2 and 3 speed SA hubs, only a little, but some with modern 7+ gear hubs) bears this out very clearly. 

IMO, the simplicity and low drag (and lower weight) of the simpler multigear hubs makes them preferable, at least to me, to the more complex, draggier, and heavier ones.

I have a QR 17/19 Dingle wheel on my Riv 1999 fixed gear road custom and switching from the 76" to a 68" headwind gear is very easy, but I noticed that I downshifted much more often and readily with the 2 speed TC hub (76" direct and 66" underdrive), helpful when your direction into the wind or the slope of the terrain changes often. My point is not that you ("all y'all") should go get a TC -- last made in the 1940s? Mine is 1937 -- but that igh's do offer some benefits over manual "get off the bike and move the chain" shifting. 

Personally, I perfer the external simplicity of a simple igh over multiple cogs or rings, and I prefer multiple cogs over multiple rings, again for simplicity and ease of use. AAYMMAWV.

I get back to that downgeared AW Schwinn: 69", 52", 39" which for a $50-total-expenditure beater including new 36 t chainring + shop labor (1989) proved to be very versatile indeed.

[Arthur Mayfield]

I don’t know what the rear spacing is on the Quickbeams and Simple One, but my Frank Jones Sr has 120mm track dropouts. Finding a modern manufacture IGH with 120mm OLD has been a lost cause for me (and I build my own wheels). I’m sure if I pored over the possibles long and diligently enough, I’d run across one or a vintage AW, but it simply becomes easier to hop on another bike when I need the gears. I’d like to build a 3 spd wheel for my FJ, though. 

One clear advantage of IGH over other multi-gear options on single speed bikes that I haven’t seen mentioned is the ease of riding with “good” fenders. I’ve tried using a flip-flop on my FJ with full coverage, aluminum fenders, and it’s not only a pita to do on the road (as well as time-consuming), but the rear fender could never be set up to fit properly to my standards. An IGH would make that a non-issue, at least until there’s a flat. Removing wheels from bikes rigged with chain tensioners on track dropouts “in the wild” for flats or other maintenance presents yet another nest of problems, with or without fenders. Overall, I’d be happier with a nice IGH. I could even get down to one bike 😝 

[John G]

The Quickbeam does indeed have 120mm dropouts.  I sourced a new 120 Sturmey-Archer when I converted my QB to three speed in 2012.  If I can track down where I found it, I'll post it here.

Cheers,

  John G

Union Bridge, MD

[Patrick Moore]

SA still makes 3-speed hubs with OL spacing to fit a 120 mm OL frame; at least the chart shows a model for 116 mm OL spacing which with the proper anti-rotation washers between locknuts and inside face of dropouts would fit the QB perfectly. 

https://www.sturmey-archer.com/files/catalog/files/319/SPECIFICATIONS%20-%20IGH%20TS%20&%20QS.pdf

My IGH hubs are variously spaced for variously spaced frames, 114 MM TO 130 MM, but with a bit of washer fettling I get a 114 mm OL TF with 145 mm axle meant for thin plate dropouts into a 120 mm OL Riv custom road fixed frame with fat modern forged dropouts with ample room for hex bolts. I can't use the uber-cool SA proprietary wingnuts, but the axle fits securely and worry-free.

I started to adapt my S3X with 130 mm OL spacing and correspondingly long axle to 120 mm but stopped mid-project; but it's not hard to remove the spacers which make up most of the difference between 114 and 130 mm, and cut the axle as -- and if -- needed. Pull-chain shifting technology is very, very forgiving and adaptable.

And, as another aside, for me, 3 speeds is perfect for IGHs; more than that and I want a derailleur.

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[Patrick Moore]

BTW, I will add that chain tugs are not at all necessary for secure axle placement in long horizontal dropouts or track ends; hex nuts are very secure, and I've found that even wingnuts, hand tightened, keep axles in place under my preferred high-torque/low rpm pedaling with just sufficient effort given to finger tightening.

[Patrick Moore]

Duh, you don't use chain tugs with horizontals, just with track ends, but you know what I mean: hex nuts and even assiduously tightened wingnuts are secure under the modestly agressive honking of a 170-lb male.

[J L]

Strumy Archer makes a 120 OLD version of their X-RF8 8 speed internal hub. It is a modern style hub with a rotary switch rather than the chain actuated gear shift.

On Jun 20, 2023, at 9:50 AM, Arthur Mayfield <ajmay...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don’t know what the rear spacing is on the Quickbeams and Simple One, but my Frank Jones Sr has 120mm track dropouts. Finding a modern manufacture IGH with 120mm OLD has been a lost cause for me (and I build my own wheels). I’m sure if I pored over the possibles long and diligently enough, I’d run across one or a vintage AW, but it simply becomes easier to hop on another bike when I need the gears. I’d like to build a 3 spd wheel for my FJ, though. 

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[Arthur Mayfield]

I’ve seen the charts/catalogs listing 116-120mm OLD Sturmey Archer IGHs, but haven’t found one IRL. Soma Fab Shop listed hubs and complete IGH (IGGY) wheels, but they’ve been OOS forever, and by email earlier this year, they told me that was likely to remain the case for the future. Meanwhile, I keep looking and hoping. If anyone finds a hub and isn’t snagging it for themselves, I’d appreciate a tip😉

[Eric Daume]

Does this work?

https://handsomecycles.com/products/700c-silver-rear-wheel-sturmey-archer-s-rf3-3-speed-internal-handbuilt

Eric

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[Arthur Mayfield]

Yes Eric, it looks like it may just work. Thanks!

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[Arthur Mayfield]

They are sold out of wheels, but just having had them tells me that the hub is geared for 650b/700c, rather than some utility or folding bike, or a trike. They had the hubs, so I ordered one and will build a wheel. I would have jumped at a finished wheel for only $40 more, though. Worth it to try out, even if I ended up rebuilding it.