New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Sean B.]

Hey Bunch!

So I've recently set up my new MIT AHH with the albatross bars and the B17 special. I've only ridden it about half a dozen times (approx 50-60 miles). I know there's to be some breaking in for the Brooks. But I'm wondering if the B17 was the wrong choice with the upright Albatross bars. My ride this morning has my tailbone quite sore. I haven't ridden much since last summer and it could be due to shifting my weight since my sitbones were sore from a long ride on Saturday.

Does anyone else ride with this same setup? Should I wait and see how it breaks in or try another saddle like the Selle Anatomica X1?

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Drw]

Hmm. is your tailbone actually hitting the saddle? that seems like more of a fit/adjustment issue than breaking in. 

[Sean B.]

I believe it was today (hitting the saddle), as it's the only time riding this set up that I've had the issue. I was riding a bit different to lighten the load on my sit bones. I would like to move the saddle further back a bit but cant due to the rails. 

[Adam Leibow]

with upright riding positions people usually tilt the nose of the saddle up a little more than you'd expect. try that?

[Joe Bernard]

My first guess based on the bike you bought, and your desire to move the saddle further back, is you need more room than the Albatross provides. All Hilsens - MIT and otherwise - are designed as road bikes which can fit with drop bars, which is the polar opposite of what you have. I owned a Toyo 54cm AHH - the biggest one I could straddle - and the toptube was still too short for the long reachback of Albas..I had the same problem you're experiencing.

I think you'd be happier with a more forward bar like Wavie, original Bullmoose, V-O Milan, or even a Jones Loop.

[Sean B.]

Adam,

I have. The nose is pretty far up currently.

[Sean B.]

Thanks Joe! What did you end up going with?

I really like these bars, even went with a longer stem like Grant recommended. I might try another seat post. VO has one with 30mm of set back, I'm not sure what my current is so will have to measure or call. Then again I might just abandon upright-ness and go back to drops.

[John Phillips]

Sean, what is the reach of the stem you're using with the Albatross bars? And what is the setback of the seatpost you're using?

On my AHH, I'm using a Nitton S83 seatpost with 2cm setback, and Noodle bars with an 8cm stem. I think Albatross bars would have me sitting on my tailbone too unless I used a stem with a whole lot of reach.

You might need a stem with more reach, and/or as others have said, you might need other handlebars with some more reach.

John

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 10:16:30 AM UTC-7, Sean B. wrote:

[Sean B.]

John,

I'm using an 11cm stem and a seat post with a setback of at least 2cm (I'm currently unsure and unable to measure). I'm using the seat post that came with the bike. I'm also looking at a seat post that can give me a larger setback. 

[Joe Bernard]

I'm surprised an 11 was recommended, I wouldn't even THINK of using an Alba on that bike with anything less than a 13cm Tallux.

I don't remember what I did with that AHH before I sold it, but my current similar-size road bike - a Paul Taylor - was running a 13 Tallux and V-O Milan before I switched it to drops. The Milan worked.

[John Phillips]

Hi Seam,

     If I used a seatpost with more setback on my AHH, I'd also have to lower my saddle a bit to maintain the same distance to my pedals, which would move my saddle forward a bit. A different stem and handelbars combo would give you more reach for the buck.

   Have you checked out the What Bars? website: http://whatbars.com/   Great for comparing handlebars.

    I also ride a Berthoud Aspin on my AHH, which allows me to scoot my butt back a little compared to the B17 Select I used before, but again, a tiny difference, but my butt was much happier.

[Kevin Lindsey]

At the risk of sparking disagreement, I think the problem lies with the B17 saddle which, in my experience, generally doesn’t support a comfortable upright riding posture. It flares up in back which seems designed to accommodate a forward-leaning torso, not one that’s sitting more nearly vertical. It’s why so many of us have had to raise the noses of our B17s: to compensate for the fact that the back of the saddle slopes upward just at the point where the width of the saddle matches our sit bones. It’s also, I think, why so many of us complain of constantly sliding forward on our Brooks seats.
I solved this problem by gradually dumping all my Brooks saddles and replacing them with Rivet Imogenes, which are flat, relatively wide, extremely well made, and beautiful, to boot.
Kevin Lindsey
Alexandria, VA
USA

[Joe Bernard]

To be clear so there's no risk in disagreement, I tend to voice my opinions strongly, which sounds like I think they are facts. They are not facts, they are my opinions from my experiences.

[Drw]

I think both things are true. the B17 seems to have a relatively small comfortable/usable area, and the rear of it is somehow the worst. that said, i cant imagine riding a bike where my tailbone contacted the saddle on any sort of regular basis. i had a sam for a while and for about a week it had a B17 with albatross bars on one of the longer tallux stems. My feeling was that the bars were making the ride really cramped and kept making me want to scoot back or find a way to stretch out. eventually i went to the map ahearne bars and was very happy. thats just me though, and the final position was not bolt upright. i think super upright would require a different saddle for sure. 

[John Phillips]

Joe, I would concur as I have an 11cm Tallux and Alba's on my Hunqapillar (original build from RBW), and I'm thinking about moving to a 13cm stem, or maybe drops and a different stem altogether.

John

[Sean B.]

Does anyone think a seat post with an additional 1cm setback would make any difference?

[Garth]

Speaking for myself, Saddle fore/aft on a given bike is a rather fixed position, meaning there is a sweet spot of "centered-ness" within the frame. As far as I'm concerned you don't change this just top get more reach. 

Whether or not you're there , It's really an intuitive sense. You should be able to pedal no handed and feel smack dab centered in the bike, not falling forward or back.

As for getting the saddle back further if needed the best choice bar none is the Nitto S84. It has over 40mm of setback. Don't cheap out and get the lesser quality VO with only 30mm. 

As for the reach and height of bars, sheesh .... that is again is really intuitive. An Albatross bar *may* allow you to ride more upright if you wish, but the amount is also a function of frame design/reach, bar and stem and rider, all together combined. No single part exists and functions in a vacuum.... everything works with everything. 

All that said .... enjoy the ride :)

[David Bivins]

For a while, I was feeling like my 52cm Clem was too small for me. I felt like I had really achieved a good balance between bar height and saddle height. When I felt pressure on my hands, I would raise the bars. When I felt pressure on the sits bones, I would lower the bars.

But it still felt just a little cramped. I too was looking for a seatpost with more setback, but coincidentally I was having a lot of trouble with my non-moose bars and really wanted to try an integrated stem/bar so I got the chocomoose bars. Suddenly I had a little more space and a more comfortable ride. It's perfect for now.

[John A. Bennett]

The Brooks B-67 is --for most anatomies -- a better choice than the B-17 when paired with upright bars. 

Your pelvis rotates backward when you sit upright, and the B-67 (or the unfortunately discontinued B-68) makes for a better "sit-bones platform."

Leather saddles are like leather shoes, though. They require a little break-in time to mold to your body, but once they do, they're more comfortable than anything else out there. 

John (in Portland at Rivelo)

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 10:16:30 AM UTC-7, Sean B. wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

+1 about break in. It's almost impossible to describe to someone breaking in their first Brooks (I don't know if this applies to the OP) how different it will feel once the madness of break in is over. I'm still working in a B17 on a bike I don't ride much, and it's a torture rack. The broken in versions on two other bikes are so comfortable that I literally forget about them on a ride.

[Drw]

to the orignal questions re: selle anatomica.  the new models (while i am not wildly impressed with the quality, and have serious doubts about long term durability), are quite comfortable out of the box and have slightly longer rails that may get you an additional cm of setback. not sure i'd use them for fully upright though. 

[tc]

+1 for getting a 130mm reach Tallux and a setback set back post, based on your description.

Hopefully those 2 things will ensure your sit bones are over the wider hammock part of the saddle naturally.

Regardless...if you haven ridden in the last month or longer, you will be a bit sore on a b17.

I switched to the b17 Imperial, which has a cutout, and they’re so much more comfortable for me.

-Tom...who now runs an albatross with a 130 Tallux and a brooks b17 imperial on a 61 roadini

[Joe Bernard]

I have a theory about saddle-to-bar reach which I never see discussed, so I'll trot it out here where it may apply:

I think ofentimes saddle and/or hand soreness comes from our bodies trying to "reach through" the contact points to get to their natural position. For instance on that AHH I had my hands were very sore and left the impression (literally, on my palms) that I was pushing hard against bar, like I was trying to push it away. In my opinion this can lead to a soreness similar to weight lifting, where you're literally pushing that bar away from you. I've even tested this in my car with the seat to close: Yep. My hands got sore pushing on the wheel. So there ya go.

[Kevin Mulcahy]

Obviously, saddle comfort is very personal. B17s are too wide for me, even on upright bikes, and I’m not a super skinny guy. I use a carved C15 and it feels dreamy.

I think a good general rule of thumb is that you’d need a +4cm reach from your road bike to fit an alba. I think that’s Grants advice, right? I’m running that and I love the fit. It puts the forward-most hand position at the same distance as my hoods on the road bike.

[lambbo]

I ride a B17 on my Cheviot with Boscos - so very upright.  I switched from C19, which is theoretically wider, and find the B17 more comfortable.

[REC (Roberta)]

Hi Sean.

I took off my selle anatomica non slotted saddle to try one of their slotted ones (that I recently got from another poster because I was curious about slotted saddles).  So, the non slotted one is just sitting in a box.  If you would like to borrow it to check it out for the longer rails, just pm me and I'd be happy to loan it to you for a week or two, as long as you pay shipping.  It's nearly new.  I want to ride more on the slotted one before I decide which to keep on the bike.

Roberta (philadelphia)

[Ash]

What's most comfortable would vary based on your shape, size, weight etc.   That aside, in general, tuning your setup will get your B17 to 95% comfort level of that ideal saddle, whichever it is going to be.  The process of finding out which would be an expensive one :)

I started with B-17.  Later bought B-67 with theory that it is more suited for upright riding.  I have Boscos on both my bikes (Appaloosa and a road bike), which is as upright as it gets.   Ultimately I settled with B17 on one and C19 carved on another (for rain friendliness).  Moved away from B67 because once the nose-up position, setback and stems were all dialed in, B-17 felt perfectly comfortable.  It did take a few iterations to get the correct stem for each bike.  

Also, in my experience with these saddles, break in made them incrementally a little more comfy.  Once the setup was fine-tuned, they felt pretty comfortable before the break in.  I have done a few 50+ miles rides without much discomfort.

Perhaps you could post a side view picture of your bike so we get an idea how it is setup currently..

[Joe Bernard]

Yeah, I bought the hype for B67/8 being better for upright, too. Not for me, that wide "shelf" you sit on the edge of drove me crazy. All my bikes have upright positions - I ain't no racer boy! - and they all have B17.

[lconley]

Saddle sizing is mostly about perch bone (sit bone) width, just like frames are mostly about PBH. The Rivet site has a procedure for measuring your sit bone width. It is not a be-all end-all for determining the correct saddle, but knowing your sit bone width is another tool in your arsenal. If you have narrow sit bones a B17 is probably the correct seat even upright. I ride a B68 with drops (mounted fairly high) and a B67, B71, or B73 upright (I am heavy enough for the springs to be functional). But I also need a 54 cm frame with a 60 cm top tube (6' with an 83 PBH). It is the reason that I have a pile of stems and handlebars for experimentation. Not easy if you are on a budget.

Laing

Cocoa FL

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:

[Surlyprof]

I agree with Joe. I didn’t like the width of the b67 when I was riding a more upright setup. I also found my butt getting sore early in a ride on the b17 despite preferring the shape. I shifted to Flyer (sprung b17) and love it. I know everyone says the springs don’t do anything unless you weigh a lot but I disagree. I think Brooks nailed it with the really tight springs. I weigh between 165 and 170 and found the Flyer saddle to have just enough spring to make upright riding comfortable for long distances without an overly bouncey feel (which I detest). Even thinking about getting a Flyer Imperial to take the edge off my hardtail mountain bike.

John

[Patrick Moore]

Interesting about the Flyer; I installed one on a mountain bike and though I weigh about 175 I couldn't feel any give. Is it a matter of setup? I did have the bar 2 or 3 cm below saddle; does that affect its efficacy?

A Flyer would be nice on the Matthews because much of the terrain I ride is choppy.

On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 6:17 AM Surlyprof <jmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with Joe.  I didn’t like the width of the b67 when I was riding a more upright setup. I also found my butt getting sore early in a ride on the b17 despite preferring the shape.  I shifted to Flyer (sprung b17) and love it.  I know everyone says the springs don’t do anything unless you weigh a lot but I disagree.  I think Brooks nailed it with the really tight springs.  I weigh between 165 and 170 and found the Flyer saddle to have just enough spring to make upright riding comfortable for long distances without an overly bouncey feel (which I detest).  Even thinking about getting a Flyer Imperial to take the edge off my hardtail mountain bike.

John

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[Eric Myers]

Regarding the Flyer, I've found that the springs work better as suspension the more upright you are, but I always had my bars at or slightly above saddle height.  This was true back when I weighed 175+, and is still true now at about 160.  But more than the overall suspension, I found that the Flyer can rock a bit side to side, which may not be great form but can certainly make up for a saddle which is an imperfect fit or not adjusted to normal standards.  I wouldn't argue for dramatic hip rocking, but enough of us are slightly lopsided that a little accommodation goes a long way.  I can't remember which saddle company had a bunch of videos about this 10 years ago or so, was it Selle Anatomica?  Now it seems there are several options for saddles which "move".

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 6:16:43 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

Interesting about the Flyer; I installed one on a mountain bike and though I weigh about 175 I couldn't feel any give. Is it a matter of setup? I did have the bar 2 or 3 cm below saddle; does that affect its efficacy?

A Flyer would be nice on the Matthews because much of the terrain I ride is choppy.

On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 6:17 AM Surlyprof <jmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with Joe.  I didn’t like the width of the b67 when I was riding a more upright setup. I also found my butt getting sore early in a ride on the b17 despite preferring the shape.  I shifted to Flyer (sprung b17) and love it.  I know everyone says the springs don’t do anything unless you weigh a lot but I disagree.  I think Brooks nailed it with the really tight springs.  I weigh between 165 and 170 and found the Flyer saddle to have just enough spring to make upright riding comfortable for long distances without an overly bouncey feel (which I detest).  Even thinking about getting a Flyer Imperial to take the edge off my hardtail mountain bike.

John

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[phil k]

Hey Sean,

IIRC, the B17 specials have a bit thicker leather, so it takes some time to break in. If you're a lighter rider, it will probably take longer. If you haven't ridden awhile, your core muscles might not be used to biking, so your body make be tempted to shift forward to put the weight on your hands, thus you are probably sitting more towards the nose of the saddle than the saddle itself.

I suggest you put some proofhide on the saddle, let it work in the leather for a couple of days and go out for a ride. I would suggest tilting the nose of the saddle upward so it creates sort of a hammock to keep your glutes on the back of the saddle.

I usually put proof hide on, once every few months until it breaks in. Also helps to tilt saddle nose upward, so it create sort of a hammock to keep your glutes on the saddle. Raise your bars up to help with this as well. Ride like that for a couple of months and your saddle should be broken in. Your body will also adjust and get stronger, and you'll probably be able to lower your bars slowly back to where it was. If you're a lighter rider, it'll take you longer to break in the saddle. I had a Brooks swift that took me 2 years to break in.

Hope that helps!

[Sean B.]

Thanks everyone for the responses! I've tried most things. Tilting the saddle more, putting on proofide, a different saddle, and a different seatpost. I have purchased a Nitto S84 seat post and a Selle Anatomica saddle. The S84 and the B17 got it a little bit closer to where I needed it, but I wanted to try a different saddle too. I rode the Selle Anatomica on the Kalloy Uno that came with my AHH, and it still hurt my tail bone. So to get it further back, I put the Selle Anatomica on the S84. I have yet to ride it, but it does look a little ridiculously far back. I should also mention that my sitbones are nor longer sore with either setup.  

My PBH is 78.74 so the frame (51cm) should be a good size even if it's slightly small. I'm now thinking about getting a 130mm Tallux to bring it all together. But it is getting quite expensive trying to get this dialed into cycling bliss.

With that said, anyone selling a 130mm Tallux? I might make another post too.

[masmojo]

It's a delicate dance; regarding the fore/aft adjustment of the saddle, I wouldn't monkey with it too much, your knees should be properly positioned in relation to the pedals/spindles and that's it. With that set you can analyze handlebar position. I didn't see what size frame you are messing with, but on my 53 Toyo Atlantis & medium Clementine I run 100mm Technomic stems. So 110mm doesn't sound surprising.
Yes, the Brooks is going to take considerable breaking in, but should work fine assuming you don't have a very broad frame or are extremely upright, although I run B17s on a couple BMX cruisers that I sit very upright on, with no issues. I might suggest playing with stem height; a centimeter up or down can make a big difference. I don't think the Selle will solve your dilemma. Possibly a c-17 all weather carved or a C-19 carved. I personally found the regular C-19 to be overly stiff and uncomfortable over longer distances.

[Pancake]

Reading this thread makes me remember all that led up to my current setup, most of the same steps and problems. Unlike you (I suspect) I'm quite heavy (6'0" 260 lbs, though I started riding closer to 290). Like you I tried different seats and seatposts for my dropbar Sam and Bosco bar Cheviot:

Saddles:

• Brooks B67 --> modified to add a cutout and shoe laces between the sides to make an imitation "imperial" 
• Brooks Flyer Imperial ... essentially a sprung version of my next saddle the C19
• Ergon SFC3-L Gel
• Brooks C19 
• Sella Anatomica H2

Seatposts:

• Nitto S-65 23mm setback
• Velo Orange Grand Cru Long Setback MKII: 30.2mm setback
• Nitto S-84 37mm setback

I ended up needing some extra setback while on the Sam, but I'd always used all the setback I could so when I installed the seat on the S84 it was actually too far back. Never had the problem before, figured the tilt was off as it was painful in the front contact point (when I didn't have enough setback it was painful on the rear contact points / sit bones). Now with the C19 or the Flyer (nearly the exact same width) positions in the middle of hte seat rails I'm very comfy. Until I moved it forward a bit (rather than using all the setback the rails and S84 would allow) I was worried I'd never get it right. 

Based on my own mistakes, I'd suggest going back to the start and working through the usual steps of fitting the seat height, seat position forward/back, bars and seat level:

1. Correct PBH measurement and seat height? Check again.
2. Is your knee over the pedal (KOPS is flawed but an okay start point) axle at 3:00 position? It's a rough estimate of how far forward/back your seat should be, rarely ideal but often close. Finally having enough setback available but using too much of it was where I went wrong myself.
3. Positioning the bars where you want them and assuming your stem length is about right, adjust the saddle level to match the bars for comfort. I've found that to mean pointing almost at the stem clamp: if the bars are above the seat, tilt up a little but not quite pointing at the stem clamp. If the bars are below the seat, tilt the seat to about level, maybe slightly downward in front ... not a common Riv position though.
4. Still feels wrong? Different stem length, different bar width, different crank arm length, build up your core/glutes, acupuncture ... at that point consult a professional for a fit?

Good luck on the fit adventure, it's worth it when you get dialed in. All advise taking with large rocks of salt please. 

Abe

[Ron Mc]

Breaking-in Brooks saddles is an internet myth resulting from misapplication and improper adjustment.  Leather stretch is the life-limiting mechanism for Brooks saddles, and anything you do to accelerate it is simply shortening the life of the saddle.  

The B-17 is too wide for a drop-bar road bike, and a brand-new B-15 is the most invisible saddle I've ever ridden in that application.  B-17 fits me perfectly on 2 semi-upright bikes.  

If you haven't gone through different positions on the saddle nose, that's the place to start.  

Otherwise, you probably need the B-67 if B-17 isn't working for you.  

[Steve Palincsar]

And yet so many of us have used them successfully on drop bar road bikes.  In the 1926 catalog, Brooks says the B.17 is a saddle for Path Racing

-- https://cdn.brooksengland.com/media/contenttype/archive/pdf/1926_CM.pdf

And what did a "Path Racer" look like?

On 5/8/19 9:56 AM, Ron Mc wrote:

The B-17 is too wide for a drop-bar road bike,

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Eric Norris]

Huh? Let’s agree that not all butts are the same. I have B17s in almost all my bikes, which are almost entirely drop bar.

Personally, I find the Brooks Professional and other narrower Brooks variants to be *too* narrow. But that’s just me. Your pelvis may vary.

–Eric N

[tc]

Agreed, Eric. 

I would also assert that folks who think the B17 is too hard or uncomfortable -- after confirming they have it adjusted/placed correctly -- try the B17 Imperial.  The cutout does make a difference, but it still quite supportive. 

I have also tried the C19 carved.  I like the B17's flatter shape better.  The C19 is more rounded and basically has a lot of extra width that doesn't offer support under the sit bones.

Tom 

[Patrick Moore]

FWIW, long ago when I was still experimenting with Brookses, I found the B17 N more comfortable than the B17 regular; this for drop bars 3" and more below saddle -- the regular 17 was too wide for me and the skirts chafed. The Pro was even nicer feeling.

The Flyer, B17 on springs, was fine on a slightly more upright drop-barred mtb, but I couldn't get the springs to workd.

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[Lester Lammers]

I had issues with a Berthoud Aspin on my MIT Atlantis with Billie bars. I got a Brooks Cambium C-19 carved. Problem solved.

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 3:01:51 PM UTC-4, Kevin Lindsey wrote:

At the risk of sparking disagreement, I think the problem lies with the B17 saddle which, in my experience, generally doesn’t support a comfortable upright riding posture.  It flares up in back which seems designed to accommodate a forward-leaning torso, not one that’s sitting more nearly vertical.  It’s why so many of us have had to raise the noses of our B17s: to compensate for the fact that the back of the saddle slopes upward just at the point where the width of the saddle matches our sit bones.  It’s also, I think, why so many of us complain of constantly sliding forward on our Brooks seats.
I solved this problem by gradually dumping all my Brooks saddles and replacing them with Rivet Imogenes, which are flat, relatively wide, extremely well made, and beautiful, to boot.  
Kevin Lindsey
Alexandria, VA
USA

[Ron Mc]

Internet incredulity notwithstanding, if your new Brooks saddle hurts, you either have the wrong saddle or have it in the wrong position.  

[Tim Bantham]

In referring back to the original post I too had a similar dilemma. I ride a Sam with an Albatross and a Appaloosa with Billie's. I had a B-17 on both. I have made a choice to not use animal products so I decided to sell the leather Brooks. I since tried replacing them with every variation of the Cambium series in the carved variety but just did not agree with any of them. For me the takeaway is this. Nobody other than you can decide which saddle is right for you. The only way to know is to try a variety of choices until you find one that works with you anatomy. I would suggest focusing on saddle shape as a primary factor. If you are looking for choices try to find some with different shapes. At the advice of my friend James @Analog cycles I settled on a WTB SST that they stopped making the mid 90's. Luckily for me they made these by the gazillions so there are a ton to choose from hanging around on eBay. I wouldn't have expected this saddle to be "the one" but it goes to show you that you have to try a variety before finding what works for YOU. Good luck in your search.  

[Chris Birkenmaier]

I think we can all agree that everyone is different and therefore saddles vary as to suitability.  I have  B17s and B68s on my various bikes and all are set up with alt bars and pretty upright riding position.  I'm perfectly fine with the B17 in that usage..  For the most part I don't have that painful period for breaking in unless I go longer miles on an outing.  Also agreed - for me - the Cambium is too rounded and makes for a very uncomfortable saddle.  I also enjoy the Berthoud Mente and the newer Albruis which both have the flat back portion.  For my folders I use the WTB Sports Comfort saddle and have had good results.

[Lester Lammers]

In summary, there is a seat for every butt but butts are different.