Center pull braze on brake questions

[Robert Blunt]

Hello everyone,

I just snagged an elephant frame whose geometry is modeled on the NFE (650B), but with center pull braze ons rather than disc brakes. I am looking for recommendations for brakes. From what I can gather, I basically can have the Herse or Compass center pulls if go new, and Mafac raids if I go old. I think the Paul racers won’t work since they are designed around a different diameter braze on. I would love to know if I am wrong about this as Pauls would be my go to. Anyway, the Saluki was last winter’s project and the elephant will be this winter’s fun. Thanks in advance for any anecdotes about any of the first three brakes mentioned or whether Pauls could work.

—Robert Blunt

Pennington, NJ

[Eric Norris]

Both of my Alex Singer bicycles came from the shop with Mafac Racers.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Robert

I have RH centerpulls and they were a PITA to adjust the brake pads and also required a lot of time.  Once you losses the nuts, the pad can move up/down, in/out and rotate making adjustment tedious and time consuming.   There is supposed to be a tool to hold the pad, but it is not available AFAIK.

The braking is nice but not any better than Shimano dual pivots.  They do allow allow a 52mm fender without indenting the fender sides.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Robert Blunt]

I had some of the RH cantis on my Terraferma rando bike and got completely fed up with them after several months and switched to Paul touring cantis instead. 

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[Oliver Moss]

Ah, so you're the one who picked that Elephant. That looked sweet! 

I've not used the Mafacs, but I know there are definitely people who love them. The Pauls are good, but if you have to use the Mafacs I bet they'll be great.

[Peter Adler]

MAFACs have the virtue of being widely available (cannibalized off 70s bikes, if nothing else) and therefore cheap. If you have none of your own, and there's no abandoned 70s bikes out on the sidewalk in your area to cannibalize, your town is between Princeton and Trenton; surely they have community bike shops with scavenged components.

Paul centerpulls (which they're apparently making in both original and "medium" style again, after discontinuing them for a while a couple of years ago) use the same pivot post diameter as MAFAC centerpulls; it's that: 1) Paul's centerpull/canti pivots are longer than normal centerpull pivots, to accommodate the  pivot booster and 2)  centerpull posts have a different placement from cantilever posts*.

So you can't mount Paul centerpulls on posts for cantilever brakes, and vice versa. I'm unclear what would happen if you tried to mount Paul calipers on standard-length posts; personally, I'd want to phone Paul and talk to a person who could tell me, before committing $300+ to a brakeset.

Usually, the spacing between the posts is also wrong for switching brake designs, and this is a place where the selection of centerpull brake comes into play. The spacing between all the non-RAID MAFAC models is 62-83 mm C-C, while the 650B-centric RAID is 75 mm (the adjustable reach Top 63 is 73 mm, but they're very rare). Measure your posts and see what you need, with the understanding that there are Dia-Compes (some branded as Grand Bois or Rene Herse) that fit those spacings.

Here's a Google Docs spreadsheet (snitched from Bike Forums) with a breakdown on different centerpull models, including post diameters, post spacings and caliper reach:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ze6QFPgZFbBQmgM8ATWDE5JStRur-Q3-Mmr4hMtclRg/edit?gid=295272010#gid=295272010

If I were in your position - well, I'd sample several of my vast hoard of MAFAC brakes (Dural Forge, Racer, Competition, GT, RAID) to see what fit the pivot posts and gave sufficient clearance for the wheels. If you have no such stash, local bike kitchens are the logical place to find candidates. Find out if there's a cheap salvaged brake that will work, before committing sizable money to new calipers; at least that way, you have a bailout option.

* cantilevers place the brake pads above the pivot; centerpulls place the pads below the pivot; to fit the same size wheel, direct mount centerpull pivots need to be placed higher than cantilever posts. Typically, you can distinguish the two post placements by the distance between the posts and the fork crown/rear brake bridge; centerpull posts are usually placed so high you couldn't mount cantilever brakes on the post at all, as the crown/bridge would block the pads

Peter Adler

Berkeley, CA

On Sunday, November 3, 2024 at 5:54:55 PM UTC-8 Oliver Moss wrote:

Ah, so you're the one who picked that Elephant. That looked sweet! 

[Robert Blunt]

Peter Adler,

THANK YOU! I have a fantastic mechanic up in the Water Gap who has spare Mafacs laying around (Racer and Raids) so as soon as the frame gets here, we will try every Mafac he has in stock. I think I will give Paul a call and ask them if they might work. These are definitely not canti-posts so if I were able to make the Pauls work I would invest in them. I have them on my saluki and I am pretty blown away by their power. Do you or anyone else have any experience with Dia Comp Gran Compe centerpulls? 

--Rob

Pennington, NJ

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[P W]

Let’s see this Elephant then!

P. W.

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(917) 514-2207

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On Nov 4, 2024, at 2:32 PM, Robert Blunt <rwbl...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Robert Blunt]

As soon as I get it I will post pictures. It's on its way.

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[Robert Blunt]

Here is a shot of the Elephant National Forest Express I recently nabbed on the bay (apologies for all the shadows on the bike). I went with Mafac raids as a friend had a set and the price was right. Albatross bars, silver shifters, Paul levers, VO zeppelin fenders, grand bois rims to shimano silent hubs, grad bois double crank, VO constructeur rack, grand bois hetrres, Berthoud touring saddle, Riv setback seatpost, Riv lugged stem, cork grips, grand bois flashlight, alumalite rear light. It is not a heavy bike. 

Robert Blunt

Pennington, NJ

[Oliver Moss]

Looks great. I hadn't seen those Grand Bois cranks before, they're cool. How does the bike ride?

[Robert Blunt]

It’s low trail with no weight on the front end yet so steering is a little squirrelly but it is spry feeling. The tube set is quite light I think. I am unaccustomed to the albatross bars so time will tell whether they stay. I won’t be able to properly put the bike through its paces until it warms up a bit. It’s currently around fifteen degrees in NJ!

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[Will Boericke]

I have the Gran Compes but no experience with direct mount.   I like them a lot.

Will near Boston

[Mike Godwin]

I ran Gran Comps on my Roadeo and liked them too. With Yokozuna pads.

Mike SLO CA 

[Jerry Lynn]

Bought a pair of Paul Racers/direct-mount for my BlueDog project...