Roadini 650b conversion

[Kushan]

Hi all -

I currently own a 2020 Roadini (61 cm) with 38 mm slick tires. I have tried 32 mm and 35 mm in past but find 38 mm perfect in terms of comfort vs. speed trade off. I am planning to move to the land of daily rain (Seattle!!) in a near future and have been told that permanent fenders are a must have for getting any real use out of the bike. 

The problem is that I don't want to use 32 mm tires (which is the advertised max clearance with fenders) for this frame. I am contemplating if conversion to 650b wheels will give me sufficient clearance for 38 mm tires with fender (smaller frame 650b Roadinis are known to clear upto 42 mm). 

My questions to the group are:

- Is this even an option or would the chain/seat stays and fork will simply not cover this much tire + fenders?

- Based on Rivendell 650b conversion guide, the conversion should be straightforward by switching to long reach caliper brakes and bottom bracket will have sufficient clearance for 170 mm cranks. However, I wanted to see if anyone has attempted this conversion before and what their experience was. 

Best

Kushan

[Joe Bernard]

The first problem you'll run into involves a bit of history: 

When Grant started messing about with trying to put fatter tires on 700c road bikes all he had available in caliper brakes was short-reach, approximately 40-50mm depending on manufacturer (I think some were a smidge longer, maybe 52). This wasn't helpful so he talked Shimano into making a 47-57 reach brake, which is the size that works on Rambouillet, Romulus and Roadini. 

Later he reintroduced 650b to the US and got Tektro to make a 55-73 caliper to make lots of room on his new 650b Saluki frame. This also created a market for replacing those old short-reach brakes and 700c wheels on '80s-'90s road bikes with the Tektro R559 brake and 650b wheels. 

SO. Your frame already has 47-57 mid-reach brakes and clearance for fattish 700c tires, adding R559 isn't going to reach far enough to hit a 650b rim. 

BUT. My understanding is center-pull brakes like Paul and Dia-Compe have enough reach to work, so your project is (probably) doable if you're ok with adding brake hangers. The easy sidepull caliper swap won't work. 

Joe "this all makes sense in my head somehow" Bernard

[RichS]

Kushan:

Keep in mind the bottom bracket will be lower so the likelihood of pedal strike will be present when you lean the bike into a turn. Pedal selection plays a part too; shorter cranks (165 / 160) would be a consideration to help reduce pedal strike. This was my experience with a mid-80s Trek I converted from 700 to 650b. Ultimately the bike felt better with the 700 wheel size. Good luck with your experiment if you pursue it. 

Best,

Rich in ATL

[Fullylugged]

I ride a '95 Riv Road size 54.5 which is too tall for me in 700c. The long reach Tektro/Silver calipers do work with 650B wheels and I have only ridden it that way. It will take 38mm tires w/o fenders.  I know Joe said it won't help your Roadini, but if you can borrow a caliper and do a test fit, I would.  170 arms are not  too long and the bike rides great.  YMMV.

Bruce

[Joe Bernard]

Bruce, I believe your Riv Road started with short-reach caliper brakes. The mid-reach variety thst Shimano made and Riv put on the Rambouillet didn't exist yet. 

Joe Bernard

[Eric Daume]

Long reach calipers + wet rims = no noticeable stopping power.  Not recommended, even if you can live with a very low bottom bracket. 

Eric

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[Kushan]

Thanks all for your thoughts so far. This is shaping up to be a more complicated change than I thought (but then again, aren't all bike changes are?) ... 

Joe - I like your suggestion of using centerpulls. I actually thought that center pull required dedicated braze-on on frames but a quick research indicated that they can be fork crown mounted similar to calipers.

Eric - The discussion so far is definately dissudaing me but out of curiousity - does your take on low stopping power with long reach calipers + wet rims extend to center pull brakes as well? I am wondering if it woul be better off getting a disc braked bike (e.g. VO Pass Hunter) instead of mucking around with 650bs on Roadini. 

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 10:15:12 AM UTC-8 Eric Daume wrote:

Long reach calipers + wet rims = no noticeable stopping power.  Not recommended, even if you can live with a very low bottom bracket. 

Eric

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021, Kushan <kth...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all -

I currently own a 2020 Roadini (61 cm) with 38 mm slick tires. I have tried 32 mm and 35 mm in past but find 38 mm perfect in terms of comfort vs. speed trade off. I am planning to move to the land of daily rain (Seattle!!) in a near future and have been told that permanent fenders are a must have for getting any real use out of the bike. 

The problem is that I don't want to use 32 mm tires (which is the advertised max clearance with fenders) for this frame. I am contemplating if conversion to 650b wheels will give me sufficient clearance for 38 mm tires with fender (smaller frame 650b Roadinis are known to clear upto 42 mm). 

My questions to the group are:

- Is this even an option or would the chain/seat stays and fork will simply not cover this much tire + fenders?

- Based on Rivendell 650b conversion guide, the conversion should be straightforward by switching to long reach caliper brakes and bottom bracket will have sufficient clearance for 170 mm cranks. However, I wanted to see if anyone has attempted this conversion before and what their experience was. 

Best

Kushan

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[Eric Daume]

My experience with long reach sidepull and center pull brakes on wet rims is that they both suck. 

I did a rough experiment: I sprayed my rim with my water bottle, accelerated to about 15 mph, and grabbed the front brake as hard as I could.  The long reach brake bike took about twice the stopping distance of the V brake bike. No thanks. 

Eric

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021, Kushan <kth...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks all for your thoughts so far. This is shaping up to be a more complicated change than I thought (but then again, aren't all bike changes are?) ... 

Joe - I like your suggestion of using centerpulls. I actually thought that center pull required dedicated braze-on on frames but a quick research indicated that they can be fork crown mounted similar to calipers.

Eric - The discussion so far is definately dissudaing me but out of curiousity - does your take on low stopping power with long reach calipers + wet rims extend to center pull brakes as well? I am wondering if it woul be better off getting a disc braked bike (e.g. VO Pass Hunter) instead of mucking around with 650bs on Roadini. 

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 10:15:12 AM UTC-8 Eric Daume wrote:

Long reach calipers + wet rims = no noticeable stopping power.  Not recommended, even if you can live with a very low bottom bracket. 

Eric

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021, Kushan <kth...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all -

I currently own a 2020 Roadini (61 cm) with 38 mm slick tires. I have tried 32 mm and 35 mm in past but find 38 mm perfect in terms of comfort vs. speed trade off. I am planning to move to the land of daily rain (Seattle!!) in a near future and have been told that permanent fenders are a must have for getting any real use out of the bike. 

The problem is that I don't want to use 32 mm tires (which is the advertised max clearance with fenders) for this frame. I am contemplating if conversion to 650b wheels will give me sufficient clearance for 38 mm tires with fender (smaller frame 650b Roadinis are known to clear upto 42 mm). 

My questions to the group are:

- Is this even an option or would the chain/seat stays and fork will simply not cover this much tire + fenders?

- Based on Rivendell 650b conversion guide, the conversion should be straightforward by switching to long reach caliper brakes and bottom bracket will have sufficient clearance for 170 mm cranks. However, I wanted to see if anyone has attempted this conversion before and what their experience was. 

Best

Kushan

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[Joe Bernard]

I know you asked Eric but I'll chime in anyway, it's what I do!

I think the Roadini is a fine road bike as is, and will work great for someone else if your needs have changed and you need bigger tires, fenders, and brakes that will work with both in wet weather. There's a lot of v-brake Rivs that fit that picture, plus disc bikes like the Pass Hunter. You're gettin' a new bike! 

Joe Bernard

[Kushan]

Thanks Joe and Eric. I guess my Roadini will be going up for sale soon :) 

[Brian Campbell]

I have a 61cm,  2011, A. Homer Hilsen with braze-on Paul racers, internal wiring, custom paint that runs 38mm with full fenders. I am the only owner since I bought the frame from Riv. It will be going up for sale soon to help offset a long over-due kitchen renovation. Let me know if you have interest and I can send a set of pictures. I am near Philadelphia.

[golden...@embarqmail.com]

Here's a pic of my 650B Roadini with 42c Rene Herse knobbies. The brakes were the hardest issue to

solve. I tried the long reach Dia Compe center pulls. They had no power. I tried Paul Racers, they didn’t 

quite have enough reach. I ended up using Rene Herse center pulls, really expensive but really are nice 

brakes with plenty of power. It’s a really fun bike to ride

[Paul C. Brodek]

TL;DR:

1. You kinda can't be sure unless you try it.

2. Google "650b 700c conversion" for hours of reading/listening pleasure.

3. 19mm is your magic number; 584/650b rim center will sit 19mm lower than 622/700c. If your current reach is 57-59mm, you'll need ~80mm for 650b. That's long.

4. There are cheap/flexy sidepulls and pricier/stiffer sidepulls. Best IMHO are Paul Racers, which are $$$, and 73mm max drop.

5. There are better/crappier brake shoes; Grant's current favorites are KoolStop gray E-pads.

6. Eric isn't wrong, but folks have been riding longer-reach brakes in wet weather for decades without asploding. See #1 above.

7. If a Roadini 650b conversion won't work for you, it's either ride narrower 700c tires or get a new frame. The correct answer is almost always get an additional frame/bike.

Maybe I don't need much add'l verbiage/blather? I haven't done your particular conversion, but I had my 650b conversion jollies a decade or more back, and for me it seldom seemed worth the trouble. Biggest issue for me was usually the post-conversion 650b bb being too low, with resultant pedal strikes.  Where it worked best was if I started out with a fairly high bb/shallow drop, and if the pre-conv brake drop was shallow it was aces. I don't remember numbers exactly, but my synapses kinda recall a bb drop deeper than 70mm already being problematic.

My only current/remaining 650b conversions are a '71 Raleigh Team Pro with 584/34mm,  with a drop of only 53mm, and a thoroughly modern (for me) 2016 Wraith Paycheck at 584/48mm, with stupid-wide clearances, designed/built to be 700c/650b convertible. Neither of those bikes are fendered. Your Roadini doesn't fit either of those slots.  

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Kushan]

Hey all - I wanted to post an update here for someone who might be trying the same thing in future.

650b wheels with long reach (Tektro R559) wheels on a Roadini is definitely a no-go. Note that this only applies to larger size Roadinis that were designed for 700c wheels and mid-reach.

I have decided to just keep mine for now. Based on pictures from other RBW owners on this forums (Special thanks to Bones!), I got inspired to just keep it with a few changes. I changed the tires to 33mm Soma Shikoro (which were really difficult to source) and outfitted them with SKS fenders that I had in my parts bin. For now, I have kept the mid-reach Shimano caliper brakes (which fit with the fenders well). Depending on braking power I experience in the wetter weather, I might consider either changing to the Koo-Stop Salmon pads or changing to stiffer center-pull (center-bolt mounted) brakes. 

Here is the picture of the final look. I am quite pleased with how the bike looks with brown walled tires and the silver fenders and kind of slapping my head over why I didn't do this before. 

[Craig Montgomery]

Shikoros are very nice tires and in many instances can even handle the more benign dirt roads of Washington state (compared to the sharp rock strewn killer dirt roads of AZ). Looks like you came up with an enjoyable compromise. One suggestion for Seattle. Get a plastic gallon water or bleach bottle and cut out some fender skirts. Your feet and ankles with be glad you did. 

Craig in Tucson

[Jim Bronson]

Interesting thread.   My 90s Road is converted to 650Bx38 and I would not want to trade the 38s for 32s.  But on the other hand there was not clearance for fenders with any 700c tire with the short reach brake,  so it was either convert or get a different bike since fenders are a requirement for me.  

I am using the Tektro 55-73 brakes and the stopping power is not great, but I've gotten used to it.   A pad upgrade would probably help. 

The bottom bracket is indeed very low,  solution is not pedaling through corners.  I do scrape every once in a while when I resume pedaling too soon, which happened most recently a few days ago while turning around in a cul-de-sac.  Overall,  it's a compromise I'm willing to live with. I like the bike the way it is and would not go back. 

Jim

Leander,  TX

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[Bones]

Looks great Kushan! Glad to help. It's such a fun bike.

Bones

[Kushan]

Thanks Craig. What are fender skirts and how do I make them? My quick google search yields some interesting results (none of them look like mudflaps - which is what I thought you meant by fender skirts).

[Craig Montgomery]

Yes, mudflaps. I had "fender skirts" on the brain and couldn't come up with mudflaps quick enough. Had just been explaining to my daughter about Uncle Ed's '54 Chevy with fender skirts, curb feelers, sun visor (exterior) and push button starter. 

I've made a few plastic mudflaps for plastic fenders. Usually attached them with M5's or zip ties. Gallon water bottles make wide flat ones while bleach bottles make curvy ones. 

Craig in Tucson