Analyzing After the Crash

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Something happened this week and I want to talk about it with bike people, but I am running the risk of causing an all-out brawl. I hope we can be civil and offer good information and points of view, even experiences. But let’s not fight. Even if we wholeheartedly disagree and have 5 engineering degrees and a license for neurosurgery we’ll be respectful.

Firstly, I was not in this crash, and what I tell you is hearsay from other group members and friends. It happened on the Monday Night Ride to a faster group I don’t ride with. The group was riding at speed on somewhat of a descent. They were riding in neat lines. In the shadows of that descent, a sizeable pothole was lying in wait. The riders in the front called it out, but somewhere in the middle, the riders didn’t locate it in time and hit it, squarely. 4 riders went down. The last of those two were not seriously injured; they were able to ride, bruised and bleeding, back to the park and leave. But the first two left the scene by ambulance. One of them suffered broken ribs, collarbone and hip and required surgery. He has since been transferred to a rehab center in a larger city. When he writes on our club page, he sounds like maybe he also sustained a head injury. 

The other rider has been in the ICU ever since. He sustained fractures of his cervical spine at C4,5,6 and 7. He has had surgery to stabilize the spine and alleviate compression from his spinal cord. Though his sedation has been discontinued, he has remains in a coma. We do not know if he can move. 

This has really shaken our cycling community. To be riding on a normal summer night and then this…we are all reeling, whether we knew him or not. It seems like one of those things that cannot be avoided; the group had good etiquette and the hazard was called out - what else can you do? 

I wondered whether equipment could have saved him from this. I don’t know what tires he was running, but I wonder if wide tires and upright bars could have withstood that pothole. I wondered if my Charlie Gallop would have sailed over that hole or if it just wouldn’t have mattered. I do have a photo of the pothole with someone’s Garmin jammed into it for scale, if we all want to see it. I thought about being leaned over with more weight forward of the bike, on a bike with a shorter wheelbase. Could that have made him more at risk to crash? Did it make him more likely to be pitched headfirst?

I think about safety more as I age. Some injuries you don’t get a second chance to come back from. I love to group ride, but if I thought I would one day wake up a quadriplegic, I wouldn’t say it was worth it. This man was set to ride coast to coast with a friend of mine next summer. He was a good, strong rider and a nice man. Just one fluke on his ride and now everything has changed. It has haunted me since I heard.

Leah

[Andrew Scherer]

My prayers go out to the injured parties, I hope their healing is swift and complete. 

I am blessed to be riding in my 54th consecutive season, and I don't want anything except self-selection to stop me. The x-factor, as I refer to it, is a reality, anything can happen at any time and it's always present, on or off the bike. We each have to find our comfort level with the conditions we choose to ride in, and to your point, there should be zero judgement of anyone's choice. 

I don't think it's material what my personal choices are in terms of being examples of how to "do it right". Perhaps gear matters, but in truth the number of variables involved in any situation are too numerous. Decades ago one of my fellow club riders, an older gent (ha! younger than I am now) with decades of miles under his belt was rolling to a stop, and by his description, his front wheel felt like it got grabbed by something and he went down at less that 5 mph. Fractured a cervical vertebrae, was in a halo for weeks. He never knew what caused it. 

I would suggest that working on handling skills can help one stay vertical in sketchy circumstances, but I believe the most reliable rule is to trust your instinct in the moment. If you need more space in a group, take it. If you need to slow down on a descent, do it. If you don't want to ride in rain or busy streets, don't. Do what is going to help assure that you can ride tomorrow. 

Andy Scherer

Manhattan and Woodstock, NY

[Gabe]

 

I’m so sorry to hear about that accident and wish the best for all the individuals involved. I can imagine how much that could shake up the local cycling community, even those not directly involved. 

 

Like many worthy activities, cycling has some inherent risks that come with it (obviously) and different kinds of riding come with different risk profiles. Personally, I believe group road riding, especially group rides with drafting, has pros and cons. Obvious pros include camaraderie and the group being easier for cars to see. For people that care, it’s also a lot easier to go “faster” by sucking someone else’s wheel. For me, as someone that likes to enjoy the view while I’m riding, having my wheel five inches from someone’s rear wheel is more of a con, even if my average speed goes up when compared with a solo ride or a group ride where drafting is less prioritized. I just have to look right down at their wheel to feel safe.  I remember one ride through a pretty part of the Salinas valley and the whole group was drafting off of a fast tandem… and I just looked at someone’s back tire for 30 minutes straight. Not exactly my ideal! But other people liked getting the speed bump. I don’t mean to knock hauling ass as a group! I totally think it’s fun to try to go fast (obviously a relative term). But most days I actually enjoy being a little spread out where everyone can see in front of them and their own thus saving my vocal cords from all the “car back,” “car up” yelling and need for constant hand signals flagging random road detritus.

 

I’ve definitely hit potholes with my larger tire bikes (38mm to 48mm tires) and thought “I’m glad that wasn’t on the 28mm tires on my road bike!” but I also think that every situation is different and blanket statements about how something would have played out differently with different gear are hard to make and probably not very useful, given the multitude of variables involved. My road bike has about 2500 miles on it and I’ve never crashed it once. But that’s just luck of the draw, NOT because of skill.  I’ve definitely had to hop the road bike over potholes I’ve seen too late! But those were potholes I could see, and I wasn’t drafting, so even that was situationally specific. I think if people are tightly grouped and someone hits a significant pothole head on, that’s going to cause an abrupt change to the lead bike’s speed and trajectory, even if the person stays in the saddle. Once bikes start piling up, longer wheel bases and fatter tires (or steel frames, lugs or the latest Riv handlebar) are unlikely to make much of a difference. That being said, sure, if I was riding along alone and hitting a pothole that I hadn’t seen… I’d definitely rather do that with 48mm tires than 28mm, any day of the week. Then again, it would be even better to hit it with my hardtail with 2.6” tires on 700c wheels and a suspension fork. And even BETTER would be a full suspension mountain bike that wouldn’t even notice the pothole. All of these things exist on a continuum. Most people don't do group road rides on FS MTBs.

 

Unfortunately, accidents do happen and in different situations, slight changes in inputs could result in very different outcomes. But I like to think that most of the time, if we go out there with an attitude of reasonable caution, we’ll have a pretty good chance of coming home with a smile on our face. And for me, for most rides, that means I’m gonna grab a steel bike with big tires and, for me, ride at a speed I can sustain myself rather than by riding someone’s wheel. Let’s me see what’s going on better and enjoy the view. 

 

Wear helmets. Wear visible clothing. Be cautious. Hope for the best. Have fun. Be kind. Pet your cat. 

 - gabe 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Ted Durant]

On Sunday, June 21, 2026 at 5:28:52 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

This has really shaken our cycling community. To be riding on a normal summer night and then this…we are all reeling, whether we knew him or not. It seems like one of those things that cannot be avoided; the group had good etiquette and the hazard was called out - what else can you do? 

I used to ride with a fast group and this happened to us once. A municipality had dug out a section of road at the bottom of a hill and failed to block it. They had left about a 4" drop into gravel. It's a weekday evening ride and getting later in the summer so the light is fading. The first few riders swerved around it but one rider didn't get the message and went straight into it. He also left the scene in an ambulance, after the local police handed him a ticket for speeding. Luckily he was not as seriously injured as your club mate. (But, alas, cancer reached up and snatched him a couple of years later.)

We had a far more serious incident than that, though. Our team sponsored a race as part of a two-week set of races in Wisconsin. It was a new race on a new course, flat and fast criterium. An ambulance returned to the course from taking a crash victim to the hospital and, inexplicably, the driver pulled onto the course, then started reversing to go into the parking lot where they had been staged. That was about 50 yards beyond the final corner of the circuit, and the Cat 1-2 group was on their final lap. The lead rider coming around the final corner put his head down and sprinted hard for the finish. Apparently he never saw the ambulance, plowing into it head first at 40+. There's a stage of Tour of America's Dairyland named in his memory, now.

My experience is that, typically, the first few riders get the message from the leaders, but the farther back in the peloton the less likely people get the warning. The worst possible place to be in the peloton is 5-10 riders back. As you get even farther back, you have the chance to see and hear the carnage beginning.

 

I wondered whether equipment could have saved him from this. I don’t know what tires he was running, but I wonder if wide tires and upright bars could have withstood that pothole. I wondered if my Charlie Gallop would have sailed over that hole or if it just wouldn’t have mattered. I do have a photo of the pothole with someone’s Garmin jammed into it for scale, if we all want to see it. I thought about being leaned over with more weight forward of the bike, on a bike with a shorter wheelbase. Could that have made him more at risk to crash? Did it make him more likely to be pitched headfirst?

It certainly would feel worthwhile to speculate about whether you face similar risks, but that's a lot of counterfactuals. If he had been riding a Charlie Gallup with an upright setup would he have been going that fast? Would you have been going that fast on your Charlie?  As somebody who built probabilistic models for a living, my mantra is "all probabilities are conditional." There are many factors that would significantly change the probabilities and severity of the event, including speed, the ability of the bike and all its parts to handle the stress (not just the tires - the whole system), the rider's position going into the event and how (if) the rider reacted (braking, other attempts at weight transfer, crash positioning and management). 

I think about safety more as I age. Some injuries you don’t get a second chance to come back from. I love to group ride, but if I thought I would one day wake up a quadriplegic, I wouldn’t say it was worth it. This man was set to ride coast to coast with a friend of mine next summer. He was a good, strong rider and a nice man. Just one fluke on his ride and now everything has changed. It has haunted me since I heard.

There are lots of reasons I haven't done much group riding in years, but one of the big ones is risk management. I get very nervous riding with people I don't know well, and I don't have a lot to gain from doing big, fast group rides. Knowing how much you have gained from your group rides, I can believe this is a really big deal to you, Leah. Hopefully your group can work together to keep riding in a way that feels safe. All else equal, I think it's reasonable to say that you are safer on Charlie than you would be on a typical road racing bike with low handlebars and skinny tires, especially because you would have to spend a lot of time riding a bike like that to develop reactions that would help you avoid a crash or serious injury in the event of a crash.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Valerie Yates]

That is deeply unsettling. I hope the injured riders are able to heal and return to fulfilling lives. Catastrophic crashes have happened often enough in Boulder that I know that wish is often not the outcome. 

I think the factors you are proposing are relevant to handling if you are riding on your own. When you are riding in a paceline, you are at the mercy of everyone in front of you. I don’t think fat tires or upright bars will stop you from crashing if someone has crashed in front of you. The distances are too tight. It is not worth the risk, for me. Cycling had many dangerous aspects but one that can be controlled is groups riding more spread out.  I don’t even want anyone riding next to me as that inhibits my ability to react to whatever hazard I see in the road. 

Lots of sympathy for the anguish in your community.

Val in Boulder CO

[Joe Bernard]

I agree with Valerie. Theoretically - in my mind - my long flexy Clem with slack fork angle, high bars and fat tires is more likely to push through a pothole than a short-coupled aluminum or carbon road bike with steep carbon fork, low bars and skinny tires, but the element of surprise is the dealbreaker. If I don't see that hazard 'til my front wheel is in it I'm not having any kind of "pull up and back" reaction, my full forward steam is going straight in. Conclusion: A different bike in the same situation would have crashed, too. 

Joe Bernard 

Clearlake CA 

[Leah Peterson]



I’m really getting a lot out of all of these replies. I am so sorry about the rider who died in that race, Ted. Unreal. And I’m sure there were plenty of traumatized witnesses. I can’t even imagine what the medics thought when they realized what had just happened.

I ride with a woman who survived the ‘16 crash that killed 5 of her friends (impaired driver); that one made national news and Lance Armstrong came to Kalamazoo and did a memorial ride. Her injuries were severe and lasting. She’s 6 years older than me, a fast rider and I marvel that she did not give up group riding. In reading your responses, several of you have decided against group riding for safety reasons; did that happen naturally as you got older and your preferences changed or did something happen to make you choose solo riding? 

I really like group riding. I used to just ride with anyone because it was such a joy to be with other bike people after years of lone wolfing, but now I find myself more particular. The MNR draws a huge crowd and you never know who will be in your group week to week. I’m going to get controversial and say that the co-ed rides feel riskier to me. I have noticed that men are far less likely to call out hazards; in my women’s groups we call them out and point. So, “Hole, middle” or “Debris, right” and so on. I remember being furious one MNR ride when I  hit an entire turtle shell because the men in front of me didn’t call it out. Stayed rubber side down, though.

I really enjoy conquering a route with a group, watching my stats improve over the season, even just the sounds our bikes make as we wheel across the landscape. I like a standing appointment to ride bikes and I like to chat with the rider next to me. I don’t like to think of giving this up, but I’m also pretty risk-averse. I just didn’t think of these rides as a risky thing until this crash happened. Yes, always we fear cars, but I didn’t really consider things like potholes.

I have spent no small amount of money trying to be safe, either. I have dyno so that I always have lights. Garmin has gotten a lot of money out of me with 2 radars (I gave last year’s model to my friend and got the new Varia, which has better/safer EVERYTHING) and an Edge computer so that I know what is coming up behind me. I have Oakleys with “Road Prizm” lenses to see defects in the road better. Outside of these and good awareness, I’m not sure I can make myself much safer. 

If I had a best friend to ride with I would maybe give up all the group riding. MAYBE. I got plugged into my community when we arrived in Michigan 4 years ago by joining the bike club, and while I’ve met friends and had tons of great rides, I did not get a Riv friend. I’m moving to Columbus next year and will be on the hunt for just such a pal. After touring and bike camping with my son last summer, I could be persuaded to do less road riding if I got to do more touring. 

Keep these excellent posts coming; I am really interested and finding it good to analyze. Ironically, I am going to sign off so I can get my weights done and then head out for a group ride around the lake. I’ve been doing this smaller group instead of the MNR on Mondays that I don’t work.

Thanks,

Leah

On Jun 22, 2026, at 2:26 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with Valerie. Theoretically - in my mind - my long flexy Clem with slack fork angle, high bars and fat tires is more likely to push through a pothole than a short-coupled aluminum or carbon road bike with steep carbon fork, low bars and skinny tires, but the element of surprise is the dealbreaker. If I don't see that hazard 'til my front wheel is in it I'm not having any kind of "pull up and back" reaction, my full forward steam is going straight in. Conclusion: A different bike in the same situation would have crashed, too. 

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[Valerie Yates]

You can safely ride is a group that is spaced out adequately so everyone can see and react to road hazards. You will still see your stats improve over the season and have the shared experiences of views, weather,  climbs, descents, flats, etc. to discuss and savor. You will still be a presence for drivers to see on the road.

I rode with a few different clubs in early days Boulder and it seemed the entire focus was on riding progressively faster and tighter. I ride for fun. While naturally get faster and go longer over the course of the summer, I am not trying to hit any targets. 

The most talented, most miles ridden, most vertical feet ascended, worldwide climbing mega-achiever man I’ve ever ridden with would tell me that he considered bike paths  the biggest danger because of random holes, two-way direction, people of various skill levels, and many not paying attention. He was supreme at looking ahead and pointing out hazards. He died on a tour while on the lead out bike path where he did not see the fixed divider pole in the middle of the path. Crashed, flipped, and broke his neck. My guess is that the group obscured his view and he had no time to react when he saw it. He may have been riding adjacent to someone and chatting on the carefree-seeming start to the day.

My aversion to pacelines came from poor road quality in Boulder and the too-frequent crashes here and in the news that made me prioritize safety. Also, being introverted, having people around can be nice but is definitely not necessary and can easily be too much. 

Maybe identify 5- 20 riders who are like minded and set up your own spaced out riding group? Physically, not mentally. Or just hang way back off the peloton of your regular rides with a few friends. 😎

Safety first!

Val in Boulder CO

[Patrick Moore]

I did not realize that bike path cycling was considered so dangerous. I’ve very sorry to hear of this and the other death.

OTOH, I’ve had 3 accidents involving other cyclists, all on bike paths, dating back to one in WDC circa 1986, when a speeding young jerk oncoming in my lane thought he did not need to cede the right of way. I braked hard and avoided the head-on, he fell over, I cussed him out. The last was about 4 years ago when an inattentive rider apparently trying to draft me (I didn’t know he was there)  rear-ended me hard enough to bend my rear wheel — talk about not paying attention! The most serious circa 2000 when a child darted into our lane when my then-wife and I were on our inaugural tandem ride and I braked hard, the steerer snapped (apparent brazing defect on 531C normal gauge Orbit racing tandem, wrong bike for neophyte riders wagged like a dog’s tail) and I went over wife and bar and got severe bruising; wife merely scared.

On Mon, Jun 22, 2026 at 8:29 AM Valerie Yates <vya...@gmail.com> wrote:

… The most talented, most miles ridden, most vertical feet ascended, worldwide climbing mega-achiever man I’ve ever ridden with would tell me that he considered bike paths  the biggest danger because of random holes, two-way direction, people of various skill levels, and many not paying attention. He was supreme at looking ahead and pointing out hazards. He died on a tour while on the lead out bike path where he did not see the fixed divider pole in the middle of the path. Crashed, flipped, and broke his neck. My guess is that the group obscured his view and he had no time to react when he saw it. He may have been riding adjacent to someone and chatting on the carefree-seeming start to the day.

[Ron Mc]

Large road groups make greenway cycling dangerous - there's already a mix of baby carriages and ear-bud runners.  Long strings going too fast too often herd before they think.  

Normal speed limits on greenways are 15 mph.  Two bikes I've built expressly for greenways will both stop from 12 mph in 10 feet, which I've used more than once.  

More important, I limit my greenway gears to 15 mph.  

[ascpgh]

Firstly, and above all, may those injured have good and speedy recoveries. To you as well, Leah. Who you are and what you do has been hurt, even if you weren't there. May your recovery be full and timely also.

In group rides, or when riding in a group, there is an intoxication that comes with the motion and cohesion of the riders around you. When something happens, that seemingly integrated unit fractures immediately back into individuals. There is no way to account for the time delay of the response traveling through a pack when the front experiences and reacts to something abrupt. Their short-notice action and call out of the thing come after very short time delays as they visually process, act, and alert others. The same time delay between individuals through the group creates the caterpillar effect, leaving those in the middle and rear unable to navigate the already fallen, not to mention the initiating obstacle. 

When I began cycling as an adult,  I was invited by experienced racers who wished to share routes and places with novice riders to grow interest in cycling. They coached us up climbs, through unpaved sections, on hydrating and eating. They taught us. They rode behind us on descents and advised us as we coasted down the mountains. We saw the space they let between riders and imprinted it. We weren't racing, but rather enjoying long rides safely. 

Two years ago, I detected a motivation among new riders in the group I've ridden with for over twenty years to go faster. The discrimination of "A", "B", or "C" groups became common in the weekly emails, and I finally backed off after realizing that there were riders who were strong and there were riders who were competent. I was no longer comfortable in tighter groups of riders whose skills I hadn't watched and trusted in that proximity. Something was going to happen when that groupthink took over. It's the Abilene Paradox.

Two weeks ago, while I was riding with a friend for five days on the GAP and C&O to DC, the "A" group of my local ride had a similar crash to yours. Frighteningly similar: speedy descent with a sharp turn followed by a sharper second turn that riders were not ready for. Abrupt braking, turning suddenly beyond the tires' adhesion, whatever. Several went down, and one went under the guardrail,  hitting several of the uprights. There were ambulances, hospitalization, broken ribs, collarbones, and vertebral fractures. 

I am glad for my good examples, mentorship, and influence of insightful riders stronger and more experienced than me who droned about how trust in proximity on bikes is only slowly earned and deeply valued when in play, to everyone's benefit. 

Knowing your limits and resisting the enticement of groupthink isn't taught or valued enough. When you know enough, you ride so the caterpillar can't get you. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Richard Rose]

Andy, so true. I’ve been cycling for 50 years. My experience mirrors yours. Closest I get to a group ride these days are casual dirt road rides to a campsite. No close proximity & no hurry. I had a lot of close calls over the years while others around me did not fare so well. Not sure how I escaped. These days I treasure solitude on my rides.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 22, 2026, at 10:18 PM, ascpgh <asc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Firstly, and above all, may those injured have good and speedy recoveries. To you as well, Leah. Who you are and what you do has been hurt, even if you weren't there. May your recovery be full and timely also.

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[Joe Bernard]

I don't understand how a weekly group ride would be surprised by a pothole. If you're out there head down and hammering so fast that you can't adequately worn of a hazardous on a familiar road, you're doing something wrong. 

[Leah Peterson]



Joe, that’s not fair. There are more potholes than anyone can even count on Michigan roads. We don’t ride the same routes every time. The hole was called out but partially obscured by shadows. It did not even look like all that menacing:

No one is to blame here. It was the perfect storm of events. The riders were 2-abreast in neat lines. The pothole was called out. 

Leah

On Jun 23, 2026, at 1:41 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't understand how a weekly group ride would be surprised by a pothole. If you're out there head down and hammering so fast that you can't adequately worn of a hazardous on a familiar road, you're doing something wrong. 

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[Jonathan Carmack]

DC will definitely grow potholes literally overnight.  Our roads are an embarrassment but not a problem unique to us.  You add some big rain storms, traffic, and they can form in hours.  It plagues are riders as well, lost many a spoke.

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[Joe Bernard]

My apologies, Leah. I don't do group rides, I had no business commenting on this topic at all. 

[Mathias Steiner]

Leah, 

I'm really sorry to hear about this accident.

That's not much of a pothole -- but there's a metal tab sticking up from the pavement in the top of the picture. 
THAT will knock anyone on their butt, I don't care what they're riding. What is that doing in the roadway???

That's the real cause for all this; the pothole alone, everyone would have bounced through and probably been OK.

Group rides are fun, and I do one with friends every week. In that group, there's two guys I'll draft closely, because I've known them for decades and I trust them. Everybody else I keep my distance because I don't know what they're going to do. Not that they're unsafe, they just didn't come up with group rides and club rules. I got a snake-bite flat once because the guys in front of me didn't know to call out a nasty pothole and I went right through it and cut my 28 mm tire. More pressure would have made this a non-event; I like fatter tires now but I don't think they're safer. 

Pacelines, where a dozen or more riders act as one entity, are exhilarating and great fun. But they're dangerous because if anything goes wrong, there's no margin for error. I just don't do that anymore because I take too long to heal in my sixties.. and because I'm too slow for a credible effort. But man was it fun 30 years ago, hammering along at 20 mph and not slowing down for anything. 

I don't normally wear a helmet, except on group rides and otherwise dangerous conditions. Three times in my life I could have benefited from a helmet, and all three times I was wearing one: two group rides where someone screwed up and the dominoes fell. And one ride in the snow where I took a spill slipping on a lip between the bike path and the walking path that was iced over and I didn't know it was there. 

Passive safety is not really a thing on a bicycle. Paying attention helps. Experience helps. If you need a helmet, you're already deeply in trouble. But I have friends who probably would not be alive today without theirs. The risk goes up hugely when riding with other people, either in your group, or all around you. It's not the equipment keeps you safe, and certainly not big tires or big wheelbase, it's a mixture of luck and paying attention and using the stuff between your ears.

And I agree on the dangers of the bike path. They're fun. Slow down. MUP racers are the worst.

cheers -mathias

[who knows from Michigan potholes]

[Will Boericke]

I don't do group rides for this (and other) reasons.  Riding with even one other person where I live (dense suburbs) stresses me out - too many variables that I can't control.  

[Leah Peterson]

Matthias - you’re not going to believe me but it really was that pothole that took those riders down. That object in the photo, that “metal tab” as you see it, is someone’s Garmin, set inside for scale. Who knew potholes could be this dangerous - I certainly didn’t! New fears unlocked. 

On Jun 23, 2026, at 9:28 AM, Mathias Steiner <mathiass...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Brian Turner]

Everyone rides for their own reasons, in their own personal style / mode. This certainly could've happened to anyone, at any speed, on any surface. However, all of the potential risk factors involved with fast group riding in a paceline like this is precisely why it has never appealed to me. But I do understand why it appeals to other cyclists... I'm just not one of them.

Here's wishing a quick recovery and return to riding to all involved!

Brian

Lexington KY

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[Leah Peterson]

So much of this resonates, Andy. Yes, there is a magic that happens when moving in synchrony, at speed, in a group. I didn’t consider group riding to be dangerous; it’s rare to hear of a crash, and mostly I’d associate that with cars. I certainly did not consider that the price could be life-long paralysis and brain damage. I love so much about group riding; the standing appointment, chatting with whoever is next to me, knocking out 25-35 miles in one ride…. 

Yesterday I did a Monday morning ride with a small group, one of them is a Chain Gang crash survivor. She has been devastated over this injured rider; he was to lead their US Coast to Coast ride next summer. He has been a huge supporter of the surviving Chain Gang members and has been dear to my friend. I asked her, “If you knew this was the price you’d have to pay, would you still group ride?” With only 5 seconds of consideration she said yes. I was blown away; that would not be my answer. As a nurse, I have cared for quadriplegics; there is nothing quite like it. If I knew his fate was waiting for me, I’d quit today and ride solo.

Later that day my other friend asked if instead of riding the Monday Night Ride, did I want to do an ice cream ride with her? Neither of us are ready to go back to the park and do that ride, and neither of us wants to say we’re now apprehensive about it. It’s almost like superstition, and we’re not proud of it. But the MNR just seems tainted now, for reasons we can’t quite put to words. 

I’m moving next June and will have to start all over finding a place in the local cycling community. I have felt safe (maybe foolishly) here with the groups I ride in, and I don’t know what awaits me in the new place. Maybe it will be unsafe or unwelcoming. Maybe I’ll never do another club ride again. Hopefully I find a Riv Best Friend and we can do our rides and cut down on some of the risk inherent to groups.

Leah

On Jun 22, 2026, at 10:18 PM, ascpgh <asc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Firstly, and above all, may those injured have good and speedy recoveries. To you as well, Leah. Who you are and what you do has been hurt, even if you weren't there. May your recovery be full and timely also.

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[Bill Lindsay]

The pothole may have been the initiator of the whole event, but we're also talking about a cluster of four riders who went down together.  If it's two abreast and the four riders are in two rows abreast, then it's physically impossible for all four of them to hit the pothole.  If it was four riders in single file, it's physically possible that all four hit the pothole, but riders 2, 3 and 4 would also be hitting humans and bikes, and that's a larger and more random hazard.  It would be interesting to know how many of the four hit the pothole at all, and whether the most severely injured rider hit the pothole or plowed into a fellow club rider.  I doubt that the pothole itself was the singular cause of all four crashes.  

Fellow riders falling in directly in front of me is a big hazard, and there's not a lot I can do in bike selection to handle that hazard.  The main way to mitigate that hazard is to not follow closely behind other riders.  Otherwise, I just have to trust it's rare and live with that small risk.  Bringing bigger tires and a more rear-biased fit may give me a little margin against being the first one down when I hit a pothole.  Once I'm down, I'm a hazard to the rider right behind me.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[George Schick]

To begin with I hope for the best possible recovery for the victims of this horrible crash.  This thread seems to be divided into two major categories: potholes (or any road obstacle) and group rides.
First of all, there are potholes and then there are potholes.  That is to say, not all potholes are the same and not all are as deadly as others.  Potholes occurring on gravel roads are usually more or less shallow (though not always!) and often have gradually sloping sides due to the action of automobile tires "squeezing" gravel from the ever increasing hole out to the sides.  These are less deadly (most of the time). Potholes occurring on paved surfaces are generally formed by the freezing and thawing of the asphalt surface of the road by Winter thaw/freeze cycles (and this past Winter was a bad one for that in this part of the country). Water creeping into and under the asphalt surface to the media underneath freezes and forces out big chunks of the pavement in various places, forming the pothole.  These are the most hazardous because the forced-out pavement segments leave behind steep, sharp edges that form the hole.  The pic of the one that led to this accident is one of the worst because it was created adjacent to a manhole cover, the two different substances - the iron and asphalt - work to accelerate the damage.  It's not uncommon for today's automobiles with their very large wheels/rims/whatever you call them made from non-ferris alloys having very low profiles tires mounted to incur wheel breakage during a high-speed encounter with some of these.

Then there's the group ride issue. Not all group rides are the same.  I occasionally run across groups of seniors out for a ride and a stop at favorite restaurant afterward for lunch.  These are mostly on paths and the riders are usually spread apart by a considerable distance.  Nothing much to worry about.  Then there are group "training" rides that consist of head's down pace lines.  I see 'em go by my house almost daily during the Summer months. Many of these have this "eye of the tiger" mentality to see who can out distance who.  That's where the potentially dangerous close following comes into play.  The lead cyclist is creating a draft for the ones behind him and when he has had enough he slowly drops to the back of the bunch and the one who was behind him takes the lead.  I know, I used to ride in them during week day evenings back in the late 70's/early 80's.  But not any more as I approach my 77th birthday in a couple of weeks.  No way.  I'm too old and too concerned about injuries and too far beyond the physical condition that I'd need to do it.  And as Bill points out, it's not just the road obstacle itself that can lead to multiple crashes, it's the other riders behind the one who went down that can pile up the injuries.  Might be started by a pothole, could be a squirrel or rabbit or even a loose dog that got in the way, or even a blown out tire.  Doesn't matter, once it happens it happens and at microsecond reaction times where it's all over before anyone is even aware of it.

[Steve]

Interesting thread - especially as an old guy in my mid 70s who once upon a time was all about pace lines and drafting. I had the good fortune to never go down in a mass pile up but have seen a few occur in the first mile of mass start endurance events.  

 I did crash hard once glancing off a water line cover strategically placed in the roadway. Being young enough to still be stupid I rode another 90 miles that day. It took a good two months for my right hand to stop hurting.  (On second thought, are you ever old enough to avoid stupidity?!?)

Most crashes I've witnessed have resulted in road rash and a few bruises. Leah, the crash you described is a sad tragedy. BTW, that round metal object in your picture of the pothole must be a super heavy duty fully armored Garmin(?)  Steve in AVL

[Joe Bernard]

I want to clarify something about my ill-advised comment. I think it may have been perceived as critical of the injured rider, it was not..I was discussing the ride leader. I may come across as a mean old crank at times but I would not say something derogatory about a person in the hospital with very serious injuries. 

The whole post was a bad idea but it's here in perpetuity now, I don't want it heard as something different than I intended. 

Joe "never learns to stfu" Bernard

Clearlake CA 

[Ted Durant]

On Jun 23, 2026, at 6:00 AM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

There are more potholes than anyone can even count on Michigan roads. We don’t ride the same routes every time. The hole was called out but partially obscured by shadows. It did not even look like all that menacing:

If you’ve had some of the spring torrential rain we have been having on this side of the lake, it wouldn’t surprise me to find potholes that have suddenly become bigger.

But, oof, that photo changes my perspective on this. I have to say, I’m surprised that was enough to cause the amount of carnage that occurred, and it raises my mental probability of equipment failure contributing to the severity.  What was the direction of travel?

[Leah Peterson]

It was reported that they hit the pothole from the bottom of the pic, traveling upwards to that arrowhead shape that the Garmin sits in. And I had the same thought, Ted. “THAT caused this man to break his neck 4 times?” It’s so scary!

On Jun 23, 2026, at 6:13 PM, Ted Durant <tedd...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Gordon Stam]

Anytime you combine speed, hard surfaces, and human bodies there's the potential for injury. Bicycling is relatively safe, in and of itself, but you add higher speeds and the proximity of other cyclists, going your same direction or the other direction, as with a bicycle path, and the risk goes up. Maybe I'm just pointing out the obvious. 

I ride solo these days. My biggest risk is from other cyclists, mainly e-bikes, plus on occasion my own intoxication with going fast, usually downhill. Going downhill you've got gravity working against you, as well as time; you don't have as much time to react and avoid an obstacle. Add in a group of riders around you and evrything gets chancier. I was thinking today on my ride that maybe it would be wise to invoke the three second rule on group rides: give the person in front of you 3 seconds of space. It works in a car, it oughta work on a bike.

Back in the day we used to ride in pacelines. On a big, long ride that little bit of draftring made a difference. Perhaps it's had to change our habits but for a rec ride of 25 miles or so there's no real need to draft. But people do as people do. As for myself if I ever find myself in a group ride I (like to think) I try and allow lots of space between me and the riders around me and advise others to do the same. But sometimes that just doesnt work.

Condolences of course to the injured riders. It sucks. Your active life has taken a radical turn. I hope the fellow in ICU can get back on the bike someday. Maybe back on something like a Clem.  But it's something of a fact of life that occasionally your number comes up and there's not much you can do about. In retrospect we can identify all the ways the accident could have been avoided but we don't live in retrospect. Going forward, however, use that 3 second rule, Play it safe, if possible.

[ascpgh]

The catalyst of the subsequent events shouldn't be scaled; it's best appreciated after the fact for what it is, and how nominal it can be compared to the mgnitude of outcomes.

While riding down some mountain switchbacks in my early days riding in groups, one of the experienced riders called for caution in the shaded switchbacks. What those of us less experienced appreciated was that absent direct sunlight, trickles of water that may be crossing the road, draining from the high ground on the outside of the turn, down the pitch of the roadway to the lower inside of the U-turn. 

It wasn't the sudden entry to the shade that was dangerous, given the speed of adjustment of your eyes to seeing in the lower light; it was the moss that thrived at the edges of those seemingly innocent wet spots that were like grease. Not to be taken lightly when rolling into a nice, radiused turn on a beautiful descent. When a crash occurred because of that sort of discrete loss of traction, a look back could never make you feel like THAT was what set off an unrecoverable slip that became a big crash.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Tyler Johnson]

"Anytime you combine speed, hard surfaces, and human bodies there's the potential for injury."

Add to those variables that they were group riding at night. 

Yikes. 

[George Schick]

!!!! I missed that in the OP!  Since that was the longest daylight of the year I hope "at night" simply means during early evening hours when it was still daylight.  Otherwise, it'd just be asking for trouble.

[Leah Peterson]

It is never dark on the MNR. We have daylight the entirety of our ride.

On Jun 24, 2026, at 1:25 PM, George Schick <bhi...@gmail.com> wrote:

!!!! I missed that in the OP!  Since that was the longest daylight of the year I hope "at night" simply means during early evening hours when it was still daylight.  Otherwise, it'd just be asking for trouble.

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[Christopher Young]

Leah, 

I am so sorry to hear this. It's terrible for the people that got hurt, and also hard on their friends and family. I had no idea that people in this group have lost people they cared about to bike accidents.

I wanted to add my own related experience, because it's particularly appropriate for this forum. Almost 2 years ago (this happened in July) I was riding a paved bikes only path (no cars = no problems, right?) and managed to get in a pretty bad accident. I was drafting behind a couple of riders that had passed me going just a little faster, so I thought I'd tuck in behind them, because I'd done that with other riders in the past and had fun. The one just ahead of me seemed like a teenager, and he wasn't riding that smoothly, so maybe that should have been a tipoff. Then, another rider came by and tucked in right in front of me, though there wasn't a lot of room. I'm still not sure what happened next, but I looked over my shoulder to see if there were other riders coming up, and when I looked back, all 3 riders ahead of me had stopped. And I was going full speed with less than a bike length to impact. I hit the brakes then hit the back wheel of the bike ahead of me (I swerved to minimize the impact) and somersaulted over my handlebars onto the pavement, whacking and scraping everything thing on the left side of my body (so glad I had on gloves, arm covers, and leg covers!). I thought I had broken my leg, but Xrays didn't show a fracture. However, I could barely walk for the first week afterwards and it took more than 6 months to get full movement back in my knee. And of course all of that is nothing compared to what Leah's friends suffered. I didn't hit my head or injure my spine.

The more important part of this story is that once I discovered that I was still alive and that the other 3 riders (a dad with his two teenage kids) were as well (only the last one had any injuries, and it was just a minor scrape), I asked myself why at 62 years old (then) I had put myself in such a dangerous situation? What was I trying to accomplish? I decided that this was a wakeup call for me and that I needed to make changes, starting with never riding aggressively on a bike path that is often crowded. I'm still not sure whose fault this accident was, but for sure I could have made some different choices that would have prevented it from happening.

And then a few months later the "Art of Taking It Slow" New Yorker article came out, I read it, and I knew the change I wanted to make. I had the Riv guys help me choose a bike. I told them that although I would mostly be riding pavement, I wanted to slow things down a bit. I ended up with an AHH with albatross handlebars and 48 mm tires. I didn't immediately get rid of my carbon road bike with the aerobars, but I rode it less and less and then I realized I didn't want to ride it anymore and gave it away. 

I'm not saying that people shouldn't do group rides, especially if you love them and your still young enough to take a tumble on the pavement, but I think it's important for us all to keep a broader perspective on why we ride and what is most important. For me, I realized that I could make choices that would make it very likely that I'd be able to ride many more years, or I could keep riding the way I had been and roll the dice. And it's all worked out far better than I could have imagined. I ride more and further than I did before, but I don't worry about how fast I'm going, and I'm very wary of riding close behind someone at high speed, particularly if I don't know them. Mostly, I ride by myself, or with one or two other trusted friends.

Leah, I hope you make whatever is the best choice for you, and that your friends heal and are able to get back on their bikes soon. 

Enjoy and be safe!

regards,

Chris Young

ABQ

[Bill Lindsay]

It's true that when you grab a wheel you are putting your own safety into the hands of that rider right in front of you.  In that situation, it's important that the rider in front of you knows you are there, and then it's on you to determine whether that rider is giving you a good wheel.  Your story made clear that the youngster was not giving you a good wheel, and the group behaved AS IF they didn't know you were there.  Did you make it clear to them you were getting on their wheel?  That's pretty important for all of us out there.  Don't silently grab a wheel because that rider might not know you are there.  They can't look out for your safety if they don't know you are there.  Announce yourself.  If you're too shy to do that, don't grab the wheel.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, June 24, 2026 at 4:59:17 PM UTC-5 Christopher Young wrote:

Almost 2 years ago (this happened in July) I was riding a paved bikes only path (no cars = no problems, right?) and managed to get in a pretty bad accident. I was drafting behind a couple of riders that had passed me going just a little faster, so I thought I'd tuck in behind them, because I'd done that with other riders in the past and had fun.

Riding fast on a path is generally a bad idea. A group of people riding fast in a pace line on a path is a very bad idea. I call those people Pathholes.

Not necessarily calling you out here, Chris, because it sounds like you got caught up in an enthusiastic moment, paid the price, and learned your lesson. But, in the spirit of "analyzing after the crash", my strong suggestion is that if people want to ride fast in a group, they should keep it on roads designed for speed and build their skills accordingly.

Also, in the words of the crazy Italian driver in Gumball Rally as he throws the rear view mirror out of the car, "What is behind us is not important." If you are drafting someone, those are wise words. (Except, of course, for letting the group know that there is a car behind and trying to overtake.)

[Christopher Young]

I agree with both Bill and Ted. I don't think I ever learned to do this properly, but I had done it occasionally for many years without problems, had fun, and probably built a false sense of security. The thing is that when I thought about it after this incident I realized I don't particularly need to ride in groups and not doing that makes me safer. I think what you guys are saying is that if you want to ride in groups then you need to know what the risks are and how to mitigate them and you need to ride with people that also know that stuff. Or you will eventually have a problem. BTW, the only other significant accident I've had was on the same bike path with a big group (10?) coming straight towards me on the other side of the path and then having one of them pop out to move to the front just as we were about to pass each other. I guess it never occurred to him that there might be people coming the other way on the path. I had to either hit him head on or ride onto a soft dirt shoulder at top speed. Easy choice. I hit the ground hard, but the dirt was soft and only my pride was hurt.

Anyway, after my accident 2 years ago I could have joined up with one of the many road riding groups in town and found better people to do that sort of riding with, but I chose to go in a completely different direction and get as far from that stuff as I possibly could. At 62, that was a great choice for me, and i don't miss the fast road riding at all, but I respect people that want to keep riding in groups and I hope you can do that as safely as possible. I know it's fun to go fast and riding with others of a similar ability helps us to get in better shape. I used to run with a track club many years ago and loved those workouts for that reason. But you don't break your neck if you get tangled up in someone's feet running. Biking can be dangerous and we all need to remember that, and it's not always cars that hurt us. That's what Leah's story made me realize. if you are riding in a group, there are dangers, no matter how experienced you are.

Keep having fun riding, and be safe everyone. And know that one person in ABQ who probably never fully understood about riding in tight packs doesn't do it anymore. Maybe I can consider that an act of community service.

Chris

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[Leah Peterson]

I’m glad you’re ok and have found a new-more-better form of riding, Chris. 

I really have enjoyed reading every post on this thread. There are things to be considered that I hadn’t. It is useful to me to learn from other crashes and heed wise counsel from those of you who have been riding for as long as I’ve been alive. It’s also causing me to reevaluate some of my own choices. I don’t think I’ll ride the MNR anymore. The group is new every time and you really don’t know who will be in front of/behind you on any given night. The women’s groups I ride with on Tues and Fri are women I know and they are careful riders with nothing to prove, speed-wise. If I’m off on a Monday, there’s a smaller group of women (whom I already ride with Fri) and their husbands who ride in the mornings, and I’m invited to join them.

Maybe I’ll make more changes over time, but for now, I’m going to pay better attention to the road conditions and ride with safer groups.

On Jun 24, 2026, at 10:27 PM, Christopher Young <nmtr...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jay]

I think it's wise to revaluate a situation after a turning point.  In some situations it doesn't mean we run away from something, but consider what makes sense for yourself, taking into account some new information or perspective.  You assessment of the women's group ride, vs. the MNR ride, is so practical.

A few years after I started cycling, my brother-in-law and I became your typical roadies, wearing Livestrong bracelets and riding on 23-25mm tires.  We joined a very meaningful 4-day charity ride, with donations going towards sending kids with cancer to camp for part of the summer.  In the 4-day ride, we spent two nights at different camps.  That experience totally made up for tumble on day 1.  220km ride, in groups based on avg speed, and the leaders walked us all through how to pace line as this was a long ride and many of us new to that kind of distance.  The draft and energy of the group was amazing, until it wasn't.  I was trying to pry one of those old Powerbar's out of it's package, overlapped wheels with the rider in front and I went down.   Not a bad fall, but scraped and bruised and 160km to go made for challenging ride.  Thankfully I was 30 and faster to heal.  Rest of the days were fine.  I heard of a couple of other incidents.  What I really learned though, is if you have to ride in a group to cover the distance, not for me, I'll ride a shorter distance.  If you have to ride in a pace line because it's what the ride is about, not for me.  I do ride with up to a couple of friends and we'll ride either side-by-side or behind one another, but we know each other well.  We all have Varia or equiv and just know how to maneuver based on cars coming from behind, obstacles ahead, calling out turns, etc.

[Leah Peterson]

One of the first things they told me when I joined was “Don’t cross wheels. If you do, YOU’LL be going down.” I’ve seen it once or twice and it was 100% true. I don’t know why but I know it holds. Glad you were ok, Jay!

Eating on the bike…a longtime rider in our club had a nasty crash this season while trying to eat a banana. It was a man. In the women’s groups we only eat when stopped. If we want to stop, we say, “Stop-Stop at the stop sign.” Then you can shed a layer, water up, eat a quick snack, etc.

I talked to someone at my Tuesday ride who attended the MNR. She said the huddle was deep into etiquette. Asking pointedly to new faces, “Have you ever ridden with a group?” Also, whoever was the speaker said, “We do not ride on the yellow line. The person who did that is here tonight and if we see it you won’t be riding with us anymore.” That was new. I don’t think riding on the yellow line influenced the crash I’ve told you about… 

L

On Jun 25, 2026, at 9:55 PM, Jay <jason....@gmail.com> wrote:

I think it's wise to revaluate a situation after a turning point.  In some situations it doesn't mean we run away from something, but consider what makes sense for yourself, taking into account some new information or perspective.  You assessment of the women's group ride, vs. the MNR ride, is so practical.

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[Ted Durant]

On Thursday, June 25, 2026 at 9:23:48 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

One of the first things they told me when I joined was “Don’t cross wheels. If you do, YOU’LL be going down.” I’ve seen it once or twice and it was 100% true. I don’t know why but I know it holds. 

Ok, confession time. Riding with Lael a few weeks ago, somebody behind me asked me a question. I dropped back, I thought enough that Lael got well ahead of me, and turned to answer. Unfortunately, Lael also slowed a bit, and my front tire touched her back tire. The person who had asked me the question could not believe that I was able to recover and nobody went down. So, touching tires isn't necessarily a crash, but I don't recommend trying it, unless you're doing what the old timers used to do. Go out with some buddies on a grass field and practice touching wheels and bumping into each other.

[ascpgh]

This thread, seen through the lens of my riding and other experiences, reminds me of a topic of conversation with the medical and safety director of my hospital. He finds event review to be a science, in healthcare or otherwise. We've had some very good talks about how these develop.

No event happens because of "a thing". When reviewed out of the emotion of the moment, there is always a chain of much lesser oversights or allowances outside the standard that add up to the final thing having an outcome of a surprising magnitude. 

I said there is an intoxicating sense of unity when riding in a group at pace, like it is a singular thing. That is true, but when you think of the skills and experience of all the riders, their ability to cope and react to little disruptions without being disturbing to the group and that flow, it makes sense. The enticement draws people past their individual limits, and it is discrete, until it isn't.

How do $35M aircraft roll off an aircraft carrier, into the ocean? They do this aviation at sea thing professionally. It wasn't an event of "something" that happened, but rather a chain of very nominal oversights or individual decisions rationalized as "it'll be fine" that raised the consequences until they were catastrophic. 

I don't want to make light of anyone's injuries or skills by this simplification. I have been on root cause analysis panels in the military and healthcare, and when examined, rarely was an event of a single catastrophic cause versus a chain of nominal but active oversights and decisions that built toward an outcome that was big.

We are conned by our mind, calming us beyond things that should alarm us in little ways, but are rewarded by everything being fine. It's when they aren't that things happen that have an impact. Like driving without a seatbelt.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Jay LePree]

All:
First and foremost, my thoughts and prayers are with those who were injured, as well as those who witnessed the crashes. That kind of experience can be very unsettling.

As I approach my 59th trip around the sun, I’ve noticed that I ride with a greater sense of caution, particularly around cars, but also increasingly around younger riders on electric bikes. (Here in NJ, licensure and insurance requirements are now being introduced for riders 15 and under.)

I’ve always enjoyed group rides in the past, but over time I’ve grown more concerned about the variability in skills within the group. It may just be my perception, but with the rise of Zwift and indoor training, riders are often stronger and faster without necessarily having the same level of real-world bike handling skills. That mismatch can make group riding feel unpredictable, and at times, risky.

I live along what Bikesnob NYC calls the “Great Fredscape” out of NYC, and I’ve had more than a few encounters with large, aggressive groups heading toward Nyack. To be candid, those situations sometimes make me more uneasy than riding in traffic. There can be a strong “pack mentality,” and I’ve experienced moments where it felt like there was little regard for surrounding riders—being pushed toward curbs or obstacles.

I think it is a natural progression to be more risk adverse as we age, and presumably become wiser, although my wife may beg to differ on the wiser note.

My advice, follow your instincts, be cautious, but never lose the joy of being on a bicycle.

Kindest regards,

Jay LePree

Demarest, NJ

[Leah Peterson]

Ok, well, today I drove to that same park to do the women’s ride that I so love. The last Friday of the month we do a long ride. We had a 44 mile route planned and 11 riders. We have been SO careful, you guys. SO CAREFUL. Calling out all the road things, “car back” and all that. I had taken my pull and was towards the back when I heard barking. And then I saw it, a huge dog, running across a farmyard with everything it had. Women started yelling out and trying to discourage it, but now it was upon us. It lowered it’s head and gave chase to the woman on the end and I thought of this thread and thought, “Please, no, after everything we discussed and after what happened last week, not again.” 

Nobody was doing anything so I was going to have to. Now, I do have pepper spray but it is in my Randi Jo bag and not easily accessible. I did not want to cause an accident fumbling around so I abandoned that idea. The dog was right on Sue’s wheel and I just exploded; I don’t even know what came over me. I was so angry and I  just screamed. Like, the most horrific, angry, primal scream you can imagine. The kind of scream that you’d never let anyone hear you make. I yelled so hard my throat burned for the rest of that ride. It was, “GET OUT OF HERE NOW!” but came out more like..well, snarling… but it was a language the dog understood. Stunned, it just stopped, right there on the highway and looked at us.  

Sue was jubilant. Everybody else was shook because they believed the screaming meant the dog got us. I’m glad nobody panicked and crashed. The rest of the ride was lovely and uneventful.

Leah

On Jun 26, 2026, at 8:13 AM, Jay LePree <jayml...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Bill Lindsay]

That's some alpha energy right there.  Approve.

BL in EC

[Ted Durant]

On Jun 26, 2026, at 1:36 PM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

the dog was right on Sue’s wheel and I just exploded; I don’t even know what came over me. I was so angry and I  just screamed. Like, the most horrific, angry, primal scream you can imagine. The kind of scream that you’d never let anyone hear you make. I yelled so hard my throat burned for the rest of that ride. It was, “GET OUT OF HERE NOW!” but came out more like..well, snarling… but it was a language the dog understood. Stunned, it just stopped, right there on the highway and looked at us.

That made my day. Well played!

My wife can probably understand. She once scared away a couple of coyotes closing in our cat in our back yard, and she says she has no idea where the sound she made came from.

I always yell “GO HOME!” at dogs, and I’ve successfully used a squirt of water from my water bottle to make a dog back off. If I tried pepper spray I’m confident I’d hit myself and other riders with it, and miss the dog.

[Eric Floden]

I read somewhere (likely here) that yelling GET OFF THE COUCH confuses and slows them.

The one time I tried it, it worked...

EricF

[Gabe]

Good work Leah! I'm glad you were able to speak dog and get the creature to back off. The last time a dog went for me, I kicked it in the jaw, which was actually pretty effective. However, that winding up action for the kick would not have worked well in a pace line. 

Horses for courses! 

- gabe 

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[George Schick]

Back in the day, so to speak, I rode routes along country roads where there were a few dogs here and there who would run out and chase me. I tried everything from yelling to throwing rocks I'd carried in a fanny pack to swinging at them with a Silca frame pump I'd reconfigured with thin wall electrical conduit to replace the plastic.  Nothing really worked very well.  Then I got the idea to carry bits of beef jerky in the fanny pack that I'd throw whenever a dog came running out, kinda like the chaff that air force planes use when their automatic detection systems encounter a missile. It worked great!  The dogs would immediately stop to sniff and see what that was and, of course, chomp in down.  Next time down that stretch of road the dog would come out with its head up instead of down and snarling to see what treat it was going to get ;-).

[Garth]

Besides purposely running into stuff and all that, there's nothing like riding rollers for riding in a straight line and getting to know how every little movement on the bike can change the bikes direction, and how to correct your line with minimal movement. I know most people love their trainers that don't involve the front wheel or actual riding, but rollers are for riders who like the feel of riding while it's snowing outside. Once you hit the road your ability to ride straight and narrow is easy. 

The type of bike doesn't matter when riding by yourself or a group, either you can maneurver it as needed or you can't. A really skilled rider is fine with any type of bike, an unskilled one is a menace with every bike. I consider myself adequately skilled, enough that I don't crash, but not enough to try to crash and see if I csn avoid it, hah hah ! 

Then there's the tech/blinky lights factor. I wonder if every rider in that MNR group was riding with blinkey lights on their rear. If so that must be silently maddening and distracting. A group of riders doesn't need any tail lights. I have a tail light too, and personally doubt it helps. A driver may see it, but that doesn't mean a driver can drive, as in pass me safely. I say this because I've been side swiped twice in the last year, and many close calls, and two nut jobs trying to hit me and/or run me off the road. It's all like a bad dream ..... may be .... so it is. 

I also wonder about  'puters/phones on their stem, riders are always looking at them. They can't resist it and it's distracting. Like your modern car with all it's electronic distractions that are sold as "safety" and "convenience", hah hah, who you kidding ? Eyes on the road, basic and non-negotiable rule of riding and driving. I'm all for the technology of a home computer as way of communication and commerce, but that's about it. When riding it's 360 degree awareness. 

Still, crap happens. Bad drivers, bad roads. I feel safer on the large highways with big shoulders than I do on local 2 lane roads with no shoulder. Not as pleasant of scenery, but drivers don't have to pass me because many drivers are clueless how to pass anyone correctly anymore. 

Today I rode real early AM and took some back roads that are residential but few cars if ever are present. That lead to a downhill stretch I've ridden up before, but downhill is walking as it's very steep, loose, broken rock and gravel over a rocky and varied limestone bed. Howz that for fun ?!  I don't hink anyone makes videos on how to ride down that. If I had a mtb with a dropper post and discs I'd try it more often. As it is it's a no-go as with canti's it's either lock up or too much speed. I digress though. The point being just how peaceful it was back there, dense forest, birds singing away, not a car sound to be had, just real peaceful. Yeah, I'm right on the edge of buying me a Surly Grappler frame and building it up. I had a Susie but sold it without even riding it as I knew it wasn't quite what I wanted. The Grappler is more like it, and the name makes me laugh as it reminds me of All-Star Wrestling from Minneapolis on TV every Sunday AM as a kid and one the wrestlers would use "the grappler" to subdue his opponents ! Seeing Surly is a MN company, and the graphic on the bike showing the hand, they are thinking the same thing and that inspired the name. How cool is that. 

[Jason Noonievut]

Leah, it’s like the situation in the original post and all the subsequent posts helped you prepare for this situation with the dog, which might’ve gone worse. Glad it didn’t.

Jason

On Jun 26, 2026, at 3:32 PM, George Schick <bhi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Back in the day, so to speak, I rode routes along country roads where there were a few dogs here and there who would run out and chase me. I tried everything from yelling to throwing rocks I'd carried in a fanny pack to swinging at them with a Silca frame pump I'd reconfigured with thin wall electrical conduit to replace the plastic.  Nothing really worked very well.  Then I got the idea to carry bits of beef jerky in the fanny pack that I'd throw whenever a dog came running out, kinda like the chaff that air force planes use when their automatic detection systems encounter a missile. It worked great!  The dogs would immediately stop to sniff and see what that was and, of course, chomp in down.  Next time down that stretch of road the dog would come out with its head up instead of down and snarling to see what treat it was going to get ;-).

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[Eric Daume]

I'm going to disagree with Garth that the bike doesn't matter.

From my mountain biker perspective, mtbs have changed a lot over the last 30 years. The old NORBA position, similar to a road bike with a lot of weight on the (skinny) front wheel, is gone. Now the front end is kicked way forward, the tires are bigger, wheels are bigger, suspension is better. A modern mountain bike wouldn't even have noticed that pothole.

Then again, that modern mountain bike also wouldn't have been on that group ride. 

Eric

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[John Dewey]

Interesting discussion. 

I learned to ride more than seven decades ago, joyful then and maybe even more joyful now…if that’s possible. The hours and miles roll by and I never tire of even a ride around the block. 

Until quite recently, however I was a regular on 15 / 18mph ‘peloton’ rides. Often groups of a dozen or so strong riders. The thrill is intoxicating. 

Then one day not too long ago I sort of instinctively and abruptly gave it all up. 

Not sure how this happened, but I was made somehow totally aware of the danger. One blink of the eye at wrong time, a mere brush of wheels, a nasty pothole—disaster awaits. The pavement is hard…my body these days is soft and likely rather brittle. 

I miss it, the speed, the exhilaration, the comradery, but I’m pretty sure I’ve made the right call. 

And it’s not just the body…as I really don’t want to destroy one of my beautiful bikes. I’m a bit anal when it comes to chipped paint…or worse, like a nasty dent. Not good. 

There are no guarantees, of course, but I expect we all have ‘a line in the sand’ out there somewhere. 

Jock

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[Ted Durant]

On Jun 26, 2026, at 3:30 PM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

Besides purposely running into stuff and all that, there's nothing like riding rollers for riding in a straight line and getting to know how every little movement on the bike can change the bikes direction, and how to correct your line with minimal movement. I know most people love their trainers that don't involve the front wheel or actual riding, but rollers are for riders who like the feel of riding while it's snowing outside. Once you hit the road your ability to ride straight and narrow is easy. 

+1  rollers have been a big help to me, being a naturally uncoordinated person. 

[George Schick]

Yeah, well I've been trying to get rid of rollers that I've had for many years and have posted on this blog site, but with no responses. So apparently there's little interest in those nowadays.

[ascpgh]

Leah, congratulations, you have another riding skill in your quiver.

Riders I looked up to when I was getting my riding going weren't worthy from going fast or racing; it was their collective experience and insight from riding lots of miles. They never would have learned lessons from just grinding out miles to better their racing; those folks just loved riding, and the places only a bike can take you. The positivity they communicated when giving advice was obvious, and their fondness for riding was obvious. You are becoming that rider.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh