Silver crank surprise and the weight of things

[Richard Rose]

I am in the middle of a cold weather tear down / deep cleaning of my Clem L. This project started with ordering a new chain & large chainring to replace worn units. I start taking things apart and am unable to stop. Bottom bracket felt crappy so took it out and everything was just really dirty so I did not stop until I had a bare frame. In the process a couple of interesting things were discovered.

First item pertains to the new chainring for my Silver wide / low crank. Its aluminum of course as described by Riv. What is interesting is the original was steel and a relative boat anchor! This discovery led me down a rabbit hole of weighing everything. I have never been a weight weenie even less so since getting my Rivs. But, armed with a very accurate scale and a driveway covered in snow I started taking notes...

That aluminum chainring saved me 85 grams weighing in at a scant 58.5 grams vs the originals 163.5. Held in ones hand that felt like at least a pound. I am curious about when Riv started making the larger rings out of aluminum?

The size 52 Clem L bare frame with headset cups installed weighs 2,932 grams or 6lbs. 7.4 ounces, topping my list of things I did not need to know.

The bare fork is 1,063 grams or 2lbs. 5.5 ounces. I feel certain the fork on my large Gus is twice that!

My 650b cliffhanger wheels built with 36 hole deore hubs shod with Simworks Homage tires mounted with tubes come out to 4lbs. 7.1 ounces rear and 4lbs. 0.3 ounces front. Cassette and q.r. skewers not included.

I will be weighing everything else before assembly but probably will not bore the group with the details. I will say this; I am very interested in why my Gus weighs at least 32lbs. while another guy's weighs 26! I must find out why.:)

[Kim H.]

The quest for knowledge continues to grow with anticipation and wonder.

Kim Hetzel.

[Ed Fausto]

Hi Richard (I hope I got your name right),

Please provide more details.  Like you I have a 51 Gus and it weighs 40lbs and I am having second thoughts of bringing it to my next big trip.
I am thinking of bringing my 48 Hunqapillar but I prefer the ride quality of my Gus.
I also consider myself not a weight weenie when buying parts and accessories.
But after getting my Gus, it felt heavy compared to my 48 Hunqapillar (26"), 50 Atlantis (26") and 51 Appaloosa (650b).

Thanks Richard!

[Richard Rose]

Good Morning. First, I’d never really weighed either my Clem or Gus. Only thing I did was weigh myself on bathroom scale then repeat while holding the bike. If memory serves I was about 32lbs. for Clem & 34lbs. for Gus. I will finish putting the Clem back together while recording each of the component weights. I will then try to record an accurate total bike weight. If this cold spell continues I may do the same with the Gus. One motivation for this is the following Gus review;

Ron has a nice Instagram with nice details on his Gus build. But, he claims 26-27 lbs.!!!

I questioned him about this expressing my dismay. His bike is a large as is mine. We have the same wheels (cliffhangers) but his hubs are lighter than mine I think. His tires (Ehline) are lighter than my Honchos. His is a modern 1x drivetrain (10 or 11?) with a White Industries crank. Mine is a Riv standard Silver wide/low with 7 speed Jim cassette. Both have B17’s. His post is a Thompson, mine is a Kalloy. We both have a Paul Boxcar stem. His persuader handlebar is aluminum, my Albacore is Chromo.

In short, I have a hard time seeing a 7-8lb. Difference given these differences. But, I now am beginning to comprehend how little things can add up. Whatever my Gus weighs I adore riding it. I might be over the moon if I could lose 7 lbs.!! And before anyone suggests I’d be better off just losing 7lbs. my weight is pretty optimized now.:)

I hope this helps.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 13, 2024, at 12:57 AM, Ed Fausto <emfa...@gmail.com> wrote:



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/af4305ad-a041-4e6c-905c-4c6285c1a34fn%40googlegroups.com.

[Ryan Frahm]

I will say I was surprised when I weighed my 2 piece Silver crank (double) vs the White Industries single that I planned to put on my Susie. The Sliver was over a pound heavier. I think my Susie was under 30lbs but I never weighed it. 

I  usually don’t think much about the weight because of the racks and loads I’m always carrying but some parts really are just crazy heavy!

[Ron Mc]

Kinda like alloy rims vs. steel, you'll notice the inertia difference between a heavy and light crank when climbing.  

[brendonoid]

This thread made me finally weigh my 59cm Susie and it came in 15.9kg. which is more than I thought tbh. It would be 17kg normally I guess but currently doesn't have front rack and basket.

There are a lot of places I could save weight I suppose. I have straight guage spokes, and b17 flyer, dyno with rear light. The R14 weighs over 800grams, the old M565 LX hub is hefty...

Oh dear...

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

You guys are going to make me want to fall down the rabbit hole again and find little ways to lighten up my raspberry Platypus. And I have now just practically sent an invitation for people to tell me that weight doesn’t matter and I should think about the engine (me) and so on  but not even they can discourage me! I can have one bike to be irrational about.

I did do a version of this of the Formerly Mine Clem. I got aluminum bars and new wheels and tires, got rid of the basket rack and it did make a difference. I was riding that thing for all purposes, including for fast exercise kind of rides. Dumb, but whatever. 

I don’t know about this White Industries stuff but I suppose I’ll go read about them now.

Thanks a lot you guys. Yikes.

Leah

[Johnny Alien]

Does the raspberry Platy still have a dyno hub? If so that would be a big gain as far as weight loss and lessening drag. Otherwise you have it set up fairly light from what I remember about your posts. Paul components will sure help shave some grams.

When weight is brought up the first thing Grant would say is take weight off the engine. Well I just took a massive amount of weight off the engine so I feel that I am now free and clear to be a weight weenie about the bike. :)

[Sarah Carlson]

Leah,  now you will probably chime in with me and Joe on the conversations when we discuss how a crank can also be beautiful..... Because once you recognize it you won't be able to unsee it!

Sarah

[Richard Rose]

Which circles back to original post. Having disassembled my Silver crank I have a new appreciation for it. It’s quite beautifully manufactured and now lighter thanks to the aluminum chainring. White Industries square taper crank in comparison is also beautiful & MUSA. But, complete with chainrings weighs 624 grams & cost $521.00. Silver crank complete with chainguard weighs 781 grams & cost $280.00. So for your extra $241.00 you save 157 grams or .346 lb.

At the end of the day (kind of hate that phrase, not sure why?) as Riv owners our frames are heavy especially in my case (Clem & Gus) as are our wheels particularly if you are running larger tires & dynamo hubs. That leaves the remainder of the components where any marginal gains are expensive.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 14, 2024, at 9:09 AM, Sarah Carlson <sarahlik...@gmail.com> wrote:



--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/69b71767-24b3-4479-8016-25db4c3769e5n%40googlegroups.com.

[Leah Peterson]



It will always have a dyno hub. I just can’t give up that kind of practicality. I didn’t know Paul components would save me any weight but I’m glad if they do. My Velo Orange levers were pretty feather-light already though. 

I probably do have the Platy set up as light as I dare, save the drivetrain stuff from White Industries. And Richard has a good point that all that money would only save me a third of a pound.

On Jan 14, 2024, at 8:40 AM, Johnny Alien <johnny....@gmail.com> wrote:

Does the raspberry Platy still have a dyno hub? If so that would be a big gain as far as weight loss and lessening drag. Otherwise you have it set up fairly light from what I remember about your posts. Paul components will sure help shave some grams.

When weight is brought up the first thing Grant would say is take weight off the engine. Well I just took a massive amount of weight off the engine so I feel that I am now free and clear to be a weight weenie about the bike. :)

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/eReNb9qsX94/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/fd92245f-6eec-4430-b9c2-c4f2996b8b8bn%40googlegroups.com.

[Chris Fly]

I think weight matters and one of the main reasons I LOVE looking at the Riv site and Riv bikes. but currently only own my Dad's AHH that was given to me when he passed.. I would never quibble over a couple pounds here or there, but reading through this thread and seeing the OP's frame/fork/wheels weigh 18# (if I read it correctly) is insane to me.. I fully believe a 15# weight difference WILL make a fairly big difference on a ride, esp one with hills.. at least for how I like to ride. I got my first Riv back in 2008ish and Grant certainly wasn't worrying about weight then as my Bleriot I had was certainly overbuilt for sure, but it wasn't too crazy.. 

Anyway, I'm certain I'm the outlier here in my thinking and that's ok, I still love looking at the classic Rivs and enjoy riding my Dad's AHH. 

Chris in Sonoma County 

[Patrick Moore]

It's interesting to view a moderately weight weenie thread on this list!  expect Rivendell make their frames as heavy as they are largely to avoid breakage and resulting costs of return or repairs; that's a guess. 

But reviewers of even the Clem, which I gather from list discussions is built with heavier tubing than the Platypus, describe it as feeling agile and fast; I recall Patrick O'Grady's very favorable review of his new Clem some years ago I can't find it right now but I did come across a surprising number of positive reviews of the Clem in the -- well, perhaps not mainstream but certainly not RBW-list media.

I do think weight matters to how fast (or to put the same thing another way, how easy to pedal) a bike feels, but IME it's not the only or even the most determining factor, as some of the fastest "feeling" bikes I've owned have been relative tanks, and even had rather heavy wheels, tho' none had f+f+wheels. weighing 18 lb.

But I've certainly owned frames much lighter than Rivendells that seemed as able to carry loads and be durable and, in some cases, consistently feel faster than the Rivs they replaced - tho' I've owned heavy frames that also felt faster than comparable Rivendells.

On Sun, Jan 14, 2024 at 10:19 AM Chris Fly <four...@gmail.com> wrote:

... I fully believe a 15# weight difference WILL make a fairly big difference on a ride, esp one with hills.. at least for how I like to ride. I got my first Riv back in 2008ish and Grant certainly wasn't worrying about weight then as my Bleriot I had was certainly overbuilt for sure, but it wasn't too crazy.. 

[Kim H.]

I am not a weight weenie. I will take the beauty over the weight. I have enough low gears to not even think about.

Kim Hetzel

...loving my beautiful retirement bicycle.

[Ron Mc]

The scalar involved here, 6 lbs, and 15 lbs, hardly fits into weight weenie discussion.  

But I do remember a thread about why some bikes feel faster.  Less energy going into changing the rotational speed of components means more energy going directly into drive.  

[Armand Kizirian]

The key here is to avoid the numbers, and focus on what the threshold is for experience. Let's investigate.

Weight is traditionally discussed for going faster, but we are all "enlightened" enough to know to not spoil our riding experience with such matters. However, there are merits to the pleasure of the riding experience being improved, as it relates to weight.

IF one routinely rides longer distances, particularly with lots of elevation gain, weight should be considered, but not fraught over. For shorter rides, particularly with minimal elevation change, weight has significantly less potential to interfere with the pleasure of our rides. So far, these examples are equating pleasure with reduced effort.

However, the merits of a lightweight bicycle can be thoroughly enjoyed even within a ride as short as a few miles, with zero elevation change. This may depend on how much we care to engage with the bicycle, through spirited riding. All these factors depend on where we ride, how we ride, and where are thresholds lie for what is considered a "long" ride or one with "lots of climbing" (read: mental/physical fitness). 

I will say that our intuition for what things weigh, is naturally, quite terrible. It is far too easy to unnecessarily weigh a bicycle down when you have convenient means of carrying personal items. When it comes to the bicycle itself, most are not technically minded enough to consider the net effects of choosing various (beautiful) parts in a system, that may or may not result in a bicycle weighing over 30, 35, or 40 pounds.  Lastly, the gyroscopic forces of wheels are a worthy consideration, in the pursuit and feel of a well-riding bicycle. Sensibly lightweight rims, tires, and tubes (yes, tubes) will make the most difference. Note that I have not listed hubs there, as they do not participate in the gryoscopic forces of wheels.

I am currently conducting an experiment with my recently acquired Platypus. I have purchased it as a complete, which I'll be enjoying for some time. I will then strip it down and put an incredibly "balleur" build kit onto it, with significant weight reduction in nearly every component. For example, as it relates to this thread, I will be maintaining a 110/74bcd triple crankset, but will be saving half a pound even compared to the Silver cranks.

My experiment is for the following reasons:

1. To discover to what extent my Platypus can replace my drop-bar bicycle for longer distance riding.

2. The value of a $750 build kit vs a $2500+ build kit as a matter of experience.

2. A fun experiment in seeing how light a commuter can be (no compromise to functionality by the way, front and rear racks w/ dynamo lighting and kickstand will be present)

3. Lightweight parts happen to also be incredibly beautiful, well made, and in many circumstances, more durable and resilient.

Thanks for reading.
Armand
Santa Monica, CA

[Richard Rose]

Armand, yes, yes & yes! Your documentation will no doubt be very interesting. Let’s start with which triple crank will save you a full 1/2 pound?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 14, 2024, at 3:21 PM, Armand Kizirian <kiziria...@gmail.com> wrote:

The key here is to avoid the numbers, and focus on what the threshold is for experience. Let's investigate.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/0bb42cb8-93bd-4ceb-a422-0479280abf88n%40googlegroups.com.

[Patrick Moore]

I'll be very interested in hearing more about your experiences with the 2 build kits. Please be sure to itemize the individual components and describe how much you think each affected your riding experience. Also, I'll be interested to learn how light you can get a Platypus (what size?) with a top-end, presumably stripped down build.

My funnest bike is the lightest one, but I have and have had some almost as fun that are, or were, much heavier.

"Balleur." Am I right in thinking that this is a facetious francophon-ization of a common slang word for "all out"?

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/0bb42cb8-93bd-4ceb-a422-0479280abf88n%40googlegroups.com.

--

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing services

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When thou didst not, savage, know thine own meaning,

But wouldst gabble like a thing most brutish,

I endowed thy purposes with words that made them known.

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

During a appearance on The Opiniated Cyclist, Richard Schwinn stated the following:  Reducing the bike weight by 12 lbm, increases your speed by 1 mph, given the same power input from testing Schwinn did.    

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Richard Rose]

12 pounds?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 14, 2024, at 7:49 PM, 'John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

During a appearance on The Opiniated Cyclist, Richard Schwinn stated the following:  Reducing the bike weight by 12 lbm, increases your speed by 1 mph, given the same power input from testing Schwinn did.    

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/aab1c280-b31d-4a10-94c2-d1d2c2f3cdeen%40googlegroups.com.

[Chris Fly]

if you just look at the numbers, you can go down a long rabbit hole and certainly justify a heavy bike.. I agree 1mph isn't anything.. what you can't justify with numbers is what a heavy bike feels like when riding.. some heavier bikes certainly can "ride light", but many don't in my experience.. same with heavier wheels or tires, my 650b Hilsen with Rich-built wheels and 42mm Compass tires do NOT feel like they spin up as well as my Serotta with HED Belgium tires with 28mm Vittoria Corsas on it.. 

I would never begrudge someone riding what they want to ride, but often, heavy is just that.. heavy..

[John Hawrylak]

Yes, that is what I remember.  I dont know if the lady still has the podcast.   She had a shop in Cleveland, so if someone is from the area, maybe they can chime in.   

She also said if you feel like you want to push yourself back on the saddle, your distance to the bars is too great.  Counterintuitive, but I found it to be true, at least for drop bars.   

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/3FA91767-82F1-4E81-99D1-A66F975291B8%40gmail.com

.

[John Hawrylak]

Chris made some good points.   I am not justifying a heavy bike, merely pointing out what you can expect if you take that trip & 'go down the rabbit hole' wrt to reducing frame weight and overall weight including the rims/tires.  You may not get your kicks on Rt 66 ('when you take that CA trip...")

Good point on wheels.   If you maintain a constant speed, you minimize the acceleration and reduce the effect wheels have.   But real world riding has a lot of acceleration , so lighter wheels help.  The biggest effect was probably the change from STEEL RIMS to AL RIMS in rotational inertial.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/84184ce2-e6a8-4df1-8f50-375ce2d12e7cn%40googlegroups.com

.

[Ron Mc]

What makes a bike joyous is not 1 mph, 15 mph, or 23 mph, but the dynamic changes between those velocities.  

[Richard Rose]

This (to me) is especially true when mountain biking. The trails I like most have a LOT of short but very punchy climbs. The whole experience is one of doing intervals, blasting the downhills but gathering strength for the next climb. My road rides these days are much more chill, without any of the fast accelerations in the pack from my youth. Odd then that my heaviest bike is the one I ride on the trails. Alas & so it goes.:)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 14, 2024, at 9:03 PM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

What makes a bike joyous is not 1 mph, 15 mph, or 23 mph, but the dynamic changes between those velocities.  

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/c7af7996-f72b-4e01-b1d7-ade186c730dan%40googlegroups.com.

[Ryan Frahm]

To me, I don’t notice the weight on my normal rides and commutes, I have racks and gear and pull a trailer everywhere so weight is what it is. I do notice the weight when the trail disappears on a weekend trip and I’m lifting the bike and all my gear over or pushing/pulling under down trees. If I can save 12 lbs, I will have more fun on my trip. 

[Armand Kizirian]

@rmro...@gmail.com: The crank is a vintage middleburn triple road crank. Not really available anywhere. Nothing states the model either.  It has a highly machined spider and very scalloped arms. I'll be swapping the guard/42/30 rings from the Silver cranks onto it.