Saddle Position Question

[Andrew Nussbaum]

I'm in the process of dialing in the fit on my Toyo Atlantis and am in need of the group's advice on saddle positioning. I'm using albatross bars for a more upright position--a choice which I've come to love.  But when I sit more upright, I'm noticing that I slide "down" on my B17 saddle. I have positioned the saddle to be parallel to the ground, with perhaps a slight upward tilt.  I'd like my sit bones to be resting on the rear of the saddle.  Should I simply give the saddle a more upward tilt?  Any thoughts are welcome.  

[tc]

Yep, continue tilting the nose up no more than 1/8” at a time till it feels right. I know that doesn’t sound like much, but you need to do this in small increments. You’ll know it when you’ve reached the right tilt for you. Everyone’s different...

Tom

[Joe Bernard]

What Tom said, plus you may find that what looks and feels almost comically up-tilted at first becomes the thing you like. I find the rear portion of a broken-in B17 to be as comfy as a couch, and with the saddle tilted way back so there isn't even a hint of sliding forward/down towards the bars. Rich @ Riv uses this position, and you can get a look at mine on my "eClem again" thread.

[John Rinker]

'Comically up-tilted' is where it's at. Several years ago I remember reading about mimicking the saddle on a horse, and I've never been more comfortable on my well-loved B17.

Cheers. 

[Patrick Moore]

Saddle choice and setup is as personal as love, so I offer this FWIW. But my experience is that tilt is as crucial to comfort as height and sit bones and fore/aft position, and that a bad position will have to sliding forward to put excessive weight on shoulders, arms, and hands.

I've tried the following Brooks saddles, at least one of each, with some, multiple iterations.

B 17

B 17 N

Pro

Flyer

B 67

The situp-and-beg model like the B 67 but without the springs

Also:

Sugino Belt

Ideal of some sort, at least 1 if not 2 of these.

For all of them, I found that tilt was crucial to comfort (and I'm not using "crucial" in any sly secret way), far more so than with any other of the many other makes and models I've used.

I found that, on road bikes, the Pro was the most comfortable; the B 17 and even B 17 N chafed. But while the Pro was comfortable in butt and thighs, I could never get the tilt right, and this was even after I invested in an infinitely-adjustable-tile post -- forget name -- that had an easily rotated tilt separate from the fore/aft adjustment. The Pro was as comfortable, tilt apart, as the original issue Flites I now use, but I could never get it adjusted just right to avoid sliding forward and getting goosed.

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 9:41 AM Andrew Nussbaum <nus...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm in the process of dialing in the fit on my Toyo Atlantis and am in need of the group's advice on saddle positioning. I'm using albatross bars for a more upright position--a choice which I've come to love.  But when I sit more upright, I'm noticing that I slide "down" on my B17 saddle. I have positioned the saddle to be parallel to the ground, with perhaps a slight upward tilt.  I'd like my sit bones to be resting on the rear of the saddle.  Should I simply give the saddle a more upward tilt?  Any thoughts are welcome.  

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Andrew Nussbaum]

Any thoughts on the lateral position of the saddle?  Should I move it forward or back?

[Patrick Moore]

I and others I've talked to have found that, sometimes, sliding your saddle back alleviates weight on your hands. Once again, see Peter Jon White's essay on bike fit.

Contrary to popular belief, sitting upright and close to a high bar is not always as comfortable as having the saddle shoved back, and having the bar sufficiently distant and sufficiently low relative to your saddle position. Read the PJW essay.

Patrick "butt-back/low-bar comfortable, high-and-close uncomfortable" Moore

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[Peter White]

https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.php

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 11:41 AM Andrew Nussbaum <nus...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm in the process of dialing in the fit on my Toyo Atlantis and am in need of the group's advice on saddle positioning. I'm using albatross bars for a more upright position--a choice which I've come to love.  But when I sit more upright, I'm noticing that I slide "down" on my B17 saddle. I have positioned the saddle to be parallel to the ground, with perhaps a slight upward tilt.  I'd like my sit bones to be resting on the rear of the saddle.  Should I simply give the saddle a more upward tilt?  Any thoughts are welcome.  

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Peter White

[Tom Norton]

My B17 tilt,in the words of Doug Fattic,is an aberation!! But it has to be there or I slide forward.

[John Rinker]

[Deacon Patrick]

A quick way to test the concept of nose up/down is to set it to an extreme up position, ride it and get as used to it as you can for a few blocks, then half the angle down and see if that's better or worse. Keep halving as desired, so the incrimental change is less and less, riding them a bit longer as it gets more dialed in. Only change one aspect at a time (so do the same thing with fore/aft adjustment, but only after you have the angle at least close to where you want it and ride it for a while.). 

I find this approach to comfort adjustments better than the death by wee changes approach, where I can 't tell if it's improved or not. 

With abandon,

Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

Yes, I would agree with Patrick the Deacon. I discovered my way-up tilt by accident after it slipped on a ride and I decided to just put up with it until I got home. By the time I got there I realized it felt weird at first, then I completely forgotten about my saddle. That's the Holy Grail, baby..if you aren't thinking about how the saddle feels, it works!

[Curtis McKenzie]

The best words of 2020:

Holy Grail, baby..if you aren't thinking about how the saddle feels, it works!

               •Joe Bearnard

Thanks Joe,

Curtis

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020, 4:40 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, I would agree with Patrick the Deacon. I discovered my way-up tilt by accident after it slipped on a ride and I decided to just put up with it until I got home. By the time I got there I realized it felt weird at first, then I completely forgotten about my saddle. That's the Holy Grail, baby..if you aren't thinking about how the saddle feels, it works!

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[Andrew Nussbaum]

I had never read Peter's article. Very helpful. Thanks for sharing!

And I have some homework from Deacon Patrick!

[ascpgh]

I focus on the location my sit bones spend the most time on my saddles. I have B-17s across the fleet and I have them all in the same position relative to the cranks in elevation, rear offset and angle. What I have found about the angle (upward tilt) is that this saddle's architecture requires it to have the sweet spot of ishial tuberosity contact and support to be level. 

Look at your satisfactorily adjusted Brooks' through a paper towel core and focus on that points where your pelvis points are supported, ignoring the rest of the saddle and bike. They are probably level. The rest is just outcome. The resultant posture of a Brooks is completely unlike the "Drewed" CL listings with bars in a 120mm stem, 5" below the saddle with downward tilt aiming its nose at the bar clamp. That's clown-like. 

Absolutely no relationship to seller. 30 seconds to find the image. (Sorry to those in SF, it was easier hunting) 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Drw]

Someone At a bike thing saw my saddle up tilt and said “you may want to have kids some day”. I forgave it because it really did have the look of crotch weapon.

[George Schick]

"... I could never get the tilt right, and this was even after I invested in an infinitely-adjustable-tile post -- forget name -- that had an easily rotated tilt separate from the fore/aft adjustment ..."

Patrick - was it a Salsa Shaft?  I've got one of those on two different bikes and they're the most "finely tunable" seat post I've ever owned.  

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:59:38 AM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:

Saddle choice and setup is as personal as love, so I offer this FWIW. But my experience is that tilt is as crucial to comfort as height and sit bones and fore/aft position, and that a bad position will have to sliding forward to put excessive weight on shoulders, arms, and hands.

I've tried the following Brooks saddles, at least one of each, with some, multiple iterations.

B 17

B 17 N

Pro

Flyer

B 67

The situp-and-beg model like the B 67 but without the springs

Also:

Sugino Belt

Ideal of some sort, at least 1 if not 2 of these.

For all of them, I found that tilt was crucial to comfort (and I'm not using "crucial" in any sly secret way), far more so than with any other of the many other makes and models I've used.

I found that, on road bikes, the Pro was the most comfortable; the B 17 and even B 17 N chafed. But while the Pro was comfortable in butt and thighs, I could never get the tilt right, and this was even after I invested in an infinitely-adjustable-tile post -- forget name -- that had an easily rotated tilt separate from the fore/aft adjustment. The Pro was as comfortable, tilt apart, as the original issue Flites I now use, but I could never get it adjusted just right to avoid sliding forward and getting goosed.

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 9:41 AM Andrew Nussbaum <nus...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm in the process of dialing in the fit on my Toyo Atlantis and am in need of the group's advice on saddle positioning. I'm using albatross bars for a more upright position--a choice which I've come to love.  But when I sit more upright, I'm noticing that I slide "down" on my B17 saddle. I have positioned the saddle to be parallel to the ground, with perhaps a slight upward tilt.  I'd like my sit bones to be resting on the rear of the saddle.  Should I simply give the saddle a more upward tilt?  Any thoughts are welcome.  

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[Patrick Moore]

I don't recall the name, but I don't think it was Salsa, since this maker (I used the post with a Pro some 10+ years ago) was from a small, boutique maker. I do recall the the design included a stubby tube at the top of the shaft, and the cradle rotating around this stub, with a separate bolt for rotation and a separate one for saddle rail position in the clamps. All was silver. IIRC, there was only moderate setback, but it wasn't a zero-setback post like the earlier Sycros I owned.

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