Brake levers for setting up Canti front and V for rear wheel

[Ash]

Generally I have no problems with v-brakes.  I like them.  When I used them on my last 2 Riv builds, I felt like they can a bit too abrupt for front wheels at times.  A modulator solved that problem.  Since I do not go on mountain biking or on technical trails, a little mushiness the modulator introduces is not an issue.

However, I like experimenting.  Will at Riv had once mentioned in passing that Canti for front ant v for back would be ideal.  That idea stuck with me.  My new Susie is going to be built that way.  Ideally I would like the brake levers on left and right to have the same feel.  Is there a v-brake lever that has a similarly shaped canti counterpart?  Or are there levers that support both modes? 

[Garth]

Yep, Tektro's 354AG and MT2.1 are for both linear and canti, they adjust inside the lever body. They are also often rebranded, like mine are Forte brand but they are Tektro made.

[Patrick Moore]

Since V brakes are often (not always!) more powerful (meaning, here, brake harder for given hand pressure) than cantilevers, I'd say that you are wasting your time thinking of a V for the rear. I can see a V for the front, leaving aside modulation, if you want a higher stopping power-to-hand pressure, but in the rear, anything works, IME -- even the most horribly ineffective brakes I've used in front worked fine in the rear.

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:16 PM Ash <ash...@gmail.com> wrote:

Generally I have no problems with v-brakes.  I like them.  When I used them on my last 2 Riv builds, I felt like they can a bit too abrupt for front wheels at times.  A modulator solved that problem.  Since I do not go on mountain biking or on technical trails, a little mushiness the modulator introduces is not an issue.

However, I like experimenting.  Will at Riv had once mentioned in passing that Canti for front ant v for back would be ideal.  That idea stuck with me.  My new Susie is going to be built that way.  Ideally I would like the brake levers on left and right to have the same feel.  Is there a v-brake lever that has a similarly shaped canti counterpart?  Or are there levers that support both modes? 

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Brewster Fong]

Agree. I had the cheapest mini-v brakes up front (Tektro 926al) and a Suntour XC Pro canti brake in the rear and worked well. The problem I had with canti up front was it would squeal, shudder and had almost no stopping power. I changed pads to Kool stop salmon and that helped, but the problems persisted. I was consistently adjusting the front canti and it would work for like 5 minutes or maybe one ride. In the end, my LBS suggested giving the cheap v-brake a shot and WOW, all of a sudden I had stopping power without any shuddering or squealing! 

Of course, I later learned that one option that might have helped would be to use a fork cable hanger as it might have stopped the squealing and shuddering, maybe...it looks like this:

Of course, YMMV!

Good Luck!

On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 1:34:12 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

Since V brakes are often (not always!) more powerful (meaning, here, brake harder for given hand pressure) than cantilevers, I'd say that you are wasting your time thinking of a V for the rear. I can see a V for the front, leaving aside modulation, if you want a higher stopping power-to-hand pressure, but in the rear, anything works, IME -- even the most horribly ineffective brakes I've used in front worked fine in the rear.

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:16 PM Ash <ash...@gmail.com> wrote:

Generally I have no problems with v-brakes.  I like them.  When I used them on my last 2 Riv builds, I felt like they can a bit too abrupt for front wheels at times.  A modulator solved that problem.  Since I do not go on mountain biking or on technical trails, a little mushiness the modulator introduces is not an issue.

However, I like experimenting.  Will at Riv had once mentioned in passing that Canti for front ant v for back would be ideal.  That idea stuck with me.  My new Susie is going to be built that way.  Ideally I would like the brake levers on left and right to have the same feel.  Is there a v-brake lever that has a similarly shaped canti counterpart?  Or are there levers that support both modes? 

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[Joe Bernard]

I'm with Patrick on this, if you're going to use a canti front then I don't see how a v rear helps anything.

[Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 1:33:19 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote:

Yep, Tektro's 354AG and MT2.1 are for both linear and canti, they adjust inside the lever body. They are also often rebranded, like mine are Forte brand but they are Tektro made.

If you're going high-zoot, Paul levers come in both flavors of cable pull (Canti and Love), but are visually similar.

I'm not sure I agree with Will on this canti front/V-brake rear setup though. I would have recommended the other way around because:

1. I like having a stronger brake up front. Yes, cantilevers can be adjusted to have high braking power, but it's a compromise with tire clearance, and it's convenient to have the front brake default to high power.
2. You can eliminate the cable hanger required for use with a cantilever brake. It makes for a cleaner look, and…
3. If you suffer from front brake judder, not having a long run of brake cable between the hanger and the cantilever straddle cable may solve that.

[Garth]

I totally relate to Ash and Will on the preference for a stronger rear brake, as my Bombadil is set up this way using 2 different models of cantis on it. On my local back roads many are unpaved and rather primitive, and all them very hilly, some of which are well over 20 percent grades. Going downhill on these with loose rocks and dirt over over hard larger rocky/limestone surface can be very tricky to say the least. There's no way I'd want a v-brake on front that could lock up, ever !! If the front brake has no modulation, it's worthless to me.

The beauty of canti is there are endless models and infinite ways of setting them up. You can use short or long pads, thin or thick, and they all work. I rather prefer the smooth post style also.

On the front you can exchange the stem mounted cable stop for the Tektro fork mounted one, which allows for a cleaner direct-cable look, if that matters, and those hangers from my experience made an already good brake into an outstanding one. (XC Pro canti on my Frankllin). I have one of these hangers for my Bombadil also but haven't gotten around to putting it on yet, hah !

I'm referring to these :

[masmojo]

Sorry, maybe I missed it, but you don't say what type of bar you're running?
I assume a flat or non drop bar?
Tektro makes an adjustable mountain lever, I believe it's called the switchblade ( or something like that) they have a little knob that adjusts the cable pull from long to short (or in between) they work well, but they are a little "techy" looking & to my mind don't suit my Rivendell aesthetic.

The bigger issue as others have eluded is the brakes themselves.
The majority of you stopping power is in the front; if you put a cantilever in the front & V-brake in the back, I'm afraid you'll be locking the back brake a lot.
My suggestion would be to hunt down a pair of early XTR Cantilever brakes, they had different arm lengths front and rear for more balanced braking. I run these on several bikes, you can typically find them on Epay, but pricing varies widely under $50 is OK. They might need new pads!
They aren't quite as good as the Paul's, but they are low profile, quite pretty & light.

[Ginz]

If you are are riding really rocky, rooty, steep trails where rear brake is primary, then I can certainly understand v brake on the rear. (On my Small Hunqapillar, the rear cable stop is in such a tight spot I gave up and put v brake on).

Now, on the front, my hunqapillar has terrible shutter. I tried various things. The only thing that worked was the tektro crown-mounted stop. So, I’m using a canti in the front.

I have mismatched levers and two bar setups with cable breakers. So— I set up albatross one way and bullmoose the other. This only works because I like right-front braking for road riding. The tektro levers someone mentioned would solve this problem!

Short story is sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. I’d much prefer both v brakes or both cantis.

[Ash]

@Garthn - bingo!  Those were the kind of levers I wanted.  Wish they were all-black, but for my experiment phase I'd be happy to go with those.  Also sold on the fork-mounted cable-stop.  Thanks for both recommendations.

[Dave Johnston]

I used those forte (tektro) dual pull position levers for awhile with canti brakes and found they sucked. Even in the short pull mode they pulled too much cable for cantis so the offered a really stiff feel with very little modulation.

I can't see any reason to run V brakes in the rear unless there is some funky cable routing like on a Mixte, and in that case use V brakes front and rear.

Also what cable housing are you using? If you want a  little more modulation don't use "compressionless" housing.

I really like Avid Speed dial levers for V-brakes as you can adjust the pull with a knob to the feel you prefer.

[Ash]

Patrick, Benz, bfd, Joe, Ginz, Dave et al,

More than an anything, this is an itch I've had for while.  As much as I like riding, 50% of this hobby is about satisfying my need to tinker with things.  Appreciate you sharing your points of view.  They will be handy during my ongoing journey through the world of brakes.

 Most likely I'll end up with V for both front and back, but I'll be sure to report on the observations from the experiment!

I started with Cantis when I build my first Riv.  For aesthetics, braking feel, shudder and squeal reasons I went through 4 or 5 different pairs of cantis (including VO Grand Cru, Avid Shorty Ultimate, Tektro 510 or 710, Shimano Altus..).  Once I learned setting them up right, VO and Avid worked just fine (for my use).  One day I felt like I had developed an OCD for adjusting the straddle cable length and switch to v-brakes.  Been kind of happy ever since :) 

For the kind of rides I do though, some modulation in the front and powerful braking in the rear seems to make sense.  Besides, after two of my acquaintances have had real bad accidents going over the handlebar, I am overly sensitive to the possibility of front wheel locking up.  I have a spare pair of Avid Shorty's.  Hence I figured I'd build Susie with those.  The way the rear brake cable routing in Susie, using Cantis for the back would require too many bends and curves in the cable path.  I have not tried yet, but visually it feels like the braking power would be compromised somewhat.  The top tube/seat stay design feels perfect for v-brakes.  This situation finally gave me an excuse to try canti/v combo.   (Cliffhangers have been in short supply.  I've been waiting for last 4 weeks for my wheels.  An idle mind has a tendency to become devil's workshop.. or something like that)

[Ash]

Here's my work-in-progress Susie, rocking V-Canti combo.

Rich is still waiting for the front rim.   Temporarily I used my road bike's (now that it is Riv-fied with Bosco, 650b and R559, I call it 'City bike')  Pacenti Brevets.  Did a few rides last weekend with Avid Sing Digit 7 V-brakes both front and back.  Then a few rides with Avid Shorty ultimate in the front.  IMO,  there's no comparison when it comes to modulation.  With the Cantis it feels like I can go smoothly 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 and 100% brake power based on how hard I squeeze the lever.  V brake without the modulator felt like 10, 40, 90, 100% and a little different (mushy) with the modulator that's hard to describe.

Given that the full power this particular Canti gives upon full squeeze of the lever is quite close to that with the V, current setup feels right for the types of rides I go on (70% of the time flat roads/trails, occasional hilly rides, rarely wet conditions).  However, the asymmetry is starting to bother me a little.  Not sure yet what setup I will settle with when the build is complete.

[Ed Fausto]

Hi Ash,

What size is your Susie and is that your correct seat height?

Very nice looking :-)

Edgar

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[Ash]

Hi Ed,  this is small size.   It seems like this model 'runs big'.  I'm 5'7" and this bike feel a bit bigger than I need.

Yes that's the height I keep the seat at.

[David Johnston]

I thought of something else you can try with V-brakes: Use shorter
cross style pads.
Sometimes the long tail of typical V-Brakes can sort of twist into the
rims causing a self-energizing effect that makes them grabby. A
shorter pad may help.

Safety note: The Surly pack rack was recalled. If you use, make sure
all bolts are tightened well, thread-locked and use a Many Strap from
the Rack to the handlebars. Since its a loosen issue and not a
breakage issue I would still use the rack myself as the incidents were
probably installation error or overloaded racks. The design problem is
that the Surly rack uses a lot of bolts that could loosen to keep it
in place. This is true of most Front racks.

https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2019/surly-bikes-recalls-bicycle-racks-due-to-crash-and-injury-hazards

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[Ash]

Dave,

Thanks for the reminder about the safety recall.  I do check on those bolts frequently, but no excuse not to use the Many Strap.  Actually I find this front rack clunky.  I'll be getting rid of them soon.  I'm waiting on a back Nitto F32 from Analog.