measured speed differences between road and touring bikes

[Clark Fitzgerald]

What is the difference in speed between a conventional road bike and an unloaded touring bike set up in typical Rivendell style? I'm asking for measurements and data, simply because I'm curious.

My touring bike (Riv Atlantis) was 82% of the speed of my road bike (Bianchi San Jose) on my rides last week, about 3 mph difference.

I rode both bikes on the same 40 mile loop with 1100 feet elevation gain. I wore tight spandex and clipless shoes on the road bike, and averaged 16.4 mph. After one rest day, I wore casual clothes on the touring bike, and averaged 13.5 mph on the same loop. I worked a little harder on the road bike because of the more aggressive position.

Here are the two bikes for reference.

[Clark Fitzgerald]

PS - No drafting allowed! 😁

[Fullylugged]

YTD data: My Crit racer avg is 14.64 mph with 25'/mile avg elev

                         Upright bars Rambouillet is 14.51 mph with 19'/mi elv

                         Brevet Bike is 14.13 mph with 28'/mile.

The amount of climbing seems to have more effect than anything else for me.  BTW, my overall avg for 20 yrs,13 different bikes and 62,000 miles  is 14.26.  My avg YTD (as of my latest ride yesterday) in 2021 is 14.26.  It has varied over the years slightly but never more than 1 mph or so.  I think the motor has more to do with pace then the bike. Likewise how comfortable you are on the bike. You waste energy fighting a bad position.

[Joel Levin]

I'd venture that the geared vs. singlespeed difference is playing a major role.

I'm always much faster on singlespeeds when the route involves climbing. 

[Clark Fitzgerald]

Joel - Could be. The Bianchi is fixed. When I did own a geared road bike, however, I was always about the same speed on a fixed gear on a flat route like this one.

FullyLugged- Wow, you're consistent!

[Patrick Moore]

In my own experience, fixed versus multispeed freewheel alone won't make a huge difference between bikes similar in other respects, at least on the flat -- assuming adequate gearing on the fixed bike; differences come from tires, frame and rider fit, and wind resistance. On hills, of course, lighter with lighter wheels does make a difference.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[John Hawrylak]

About 7 years ago on the Opinionated Cyclist podcast (Diana R?), Richard Schwinn stated Schwinn did testing with a university to determine the speed difference due to frame weight.  The result was a 12 lb increase in frame weight resulted in a 1 mph difference.   I believe the wheels were constant (so constant angular momentum) since Schwinn was interested in frame weights. 

Richard Schwinn implied the results was not significant for 'normal' riders, but is significant in a race or a timed ride over a long distance, i.e., the rider on the lighter frame would cross the line earlier than one on a heavier frame and the time difference is calculatable (assuming each rider has the same power output).

The testing was done with college level athletics, to obtain a constant power output.

You should be able to use this to compensate your results for different weights.    However, this does not include the angular momentum differences of different wheel weights.  

Perhaps testing over a flatter course would minimize the rotational effects of different wheels

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ  

On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 12:12:34 AM UTC-4 Clark Fitzgerald wrote:

[Nick Payne]

Cyclingabout recently published an article on the subject of bike weight, and how little it matters: https://www.cyclingabout.com/why-we-should-stop-our-obsession-with-bike-and-gear-weight/.

Nick

[Patrick Moore]

John: do you know if this weight difference was tested on a flat course on one that included hills? Steady state or start and stop? I daresay 12 lb would slow acceleration noticeably, but IME, as a very non-pro-level rider (No!) weight itself, even 10 lb weight differences, make little average speed differences for steady state rolling, tires being more or less equal. At least, my 30 1/2 lb Matthews 1:1 with 62 mm EL Big Ones seems to roll as fast on the flats -- judging by ease of maintaining cadence in similar gears -- as my 18 lb Riv custom with 28 mm EL Elk Passes. (Big Ones are 450 grams each, Elk Passes are 175 grams each.)

[John Hawrylak]

Patrick

I do not know the specifics, only what Richard Schwinn stated on the podcast.  He also stated the weight difference would affect the average time in a stage type race, due to affecting the velocites (t=d/v).   I simply assumed, given his background, he knew what he was talking about

I are suggesting using it to correct for weight and see if the average velocities are due to a frame/fork/wheel difference or are other factors affecting the average velocity.   One key point he made was the use of college athletics to obtain consistent power inputs.   Today, Power Meters would used to ensure and correct for power differences. 

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Patrick Moore]

Just for the record, this is not my experience, in 25 years of riding fixed and 60+ years of riding ss and multispeed freewheel bikes (I started riding 2-wheelers at age 4-5).

Now, my "fastest feeling", judging by easy of maintaining a given cadence in a given gear in given conditions" -- is indeed my 76" gear Rivendell gofast fixed gear custom, but OTOH, when I actually bothered measuring times-for-distance, I'd often be just as fast in rolling conditions on much heavier derailleur bikes with inferior tires (notably Salsa Fargo), simply because I could coast downhill at 35 mph instead of spinning madly at 30 mph; more than that, I could often climb as fast on a bike 13 lb heavier with a variety of lower gears than in the one-and-only 76" gear of the 18 lb gofast.

I do think that ss and fixed gear (species of genus ss) are, all-else-equal, likely to be faster simply because there is slightly (3 w?) less drivetrain friction and a wee bit less weight, but in real life riding, this disappears in the tumult of all the other things affecting one's riding.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, John. Yes, I would really like to see Powermeter comparisons between light and heavy bikes with similar builds, wheels, and tires. Of course, nowadays, at my age, this is far, far less important that I used to imagine it to be back when I was a greenhorn 40-something, and really, nowadays, what makes one bike feel delightful compared to other bikes is merely the fit and "feel" of efficient pedaling, this last due IME to the fit of the bike to the rider, the way the bike positions the rider to the saddle, cranks and bar, the quality of the tires and perhaps of the wheels, and in last place ("last" is deliberate), the quality of the frame tubes, in a way I won't try to describe; only some frames, even heavy, seem to encourage "1 cog smaller".

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[Patrick Moore]

I just read the article whose url Nick posted; enlightening! Now at an average 30 mph (yes, extreme case to make my point) over 100K/60 miles, a single KG would add 48 seconds to the time, and of course, that is more than huge in a race's outcome. Heck, extrapolating wildly, an eight of KG, a mere 4 oz, would by this calculation add 6 seconds, which in a race is more than a big deal. So, for pros, yes, I can see that, all else equal, even a few oz are important. But for us mere mortals, No Big Deal.

[Clark Fitzgerald]

Interesting discussion! OP here- Let me make my original question / request more precise:

What is the difference in speed between when you ride the same ride on a road bike vs a bike set up in the Rivendell touring style? Ride a pavement route that favors the road bike, don't draft, wear the style of clothes you would normally wear on that particular bike, and don't worry about power output. Rest a day or two, and ride the same route with the other bike and report the relative difference in speed.

Our goal is to collect many experiences from many diverse riders so we can come away with some kind of rule of thumb, for example it could turn out that: "most people ride a Riv style touring bike at around 75 - 90% of their speed on a conventional road bike".

There are so many possible reasons for the difference in speed: body position on the bike, power output, gearing, aerodynamics of clothing and gear, tires, bike weight, etc. All of these are different in my two bikes. A typical scientific approach would focus on exactly one of these differences, and try to hold everything else fixed so that we can understand the effect of that one difference. Instead, the goal here is to quantify the cumulative effect of all these differences under real world riding conditions.

Of course, our bikes won't be exactly set up the same way, and we don't ride the same way, so our numbers will be different. This is a good thing, because it shows how people actually ride. For example, my road bike is a fixed gear, and that certainly has at least some effect.

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[Patrick Moore]

I've not made any rigorous measurements, but casual measurements that don't isolate all non-riding time pauses, as stoplights, stops to adjust a shoe or consult a phone, or weed out all the pre-ride shuffling and preparation after I set Cycle meeter in motion, but don't include any very large pauses like 20 minutes in a store, seem to back up my seat-of-pants impression that ss is not itself a cause of large speed differences.

I've recently ridden my 1999 Joe Starck light (18 lb) gofast 76" gear fixie shod with ineffably nice Elk Pass tires and yes, it does indeed seem particularly fast, faster than my 2020 Matthews 2:1 build along same lines but ~8 lb heavier, Naches Pass Regular instead of EP ELs, and with AM hub epicyclic and SON 20R dynohub powering Edeluxe1 and 2 small tail lights. It feels faster, as in ease of maintaining a cadence in a given gear in given terrain.

BUT! Riding my 2015 Matthews 1:1 "road bike for dirt" with 2X10 drivetrain and 700C X 61 mm Big One extra lights: nope, this bike feels just as fast as the 1999 Joe, and such times I've recorded on Cyclemeter indicate that it's not slower in average speed. 

This proves nothing at all, but it might indicate that there are causes of speed differentials amongst which the slightly lower friction of a ss drivetrain simply disappears.

Now, as to handling, there's not question which is "better."

On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 8:28 AM Joel Levin <joelm...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

I meant to add qualifications: flat terrain, paved surfaces, negligible wind -- the huge, almost 30" tall tires, and 80 mm fenders on the Matthews 1:1 do indeed seem to catch the wind more than the stripped, 24 3/4", 28 mm wheeled gofast.

[A. Douglas M.]

Between my drop bar Bianchi Virata on 650b38 (parimotia) and my Bianchi Volpe with albatross bars and a porteur rack and bag, the difference was notable. The Volpe was comfortable and a blast around town. When I tried to go on long rides with it, it seemed to fight me after 40 miles or so.

The Virata was fast and smooth and only my posterior hurt. But the drop bars weren’t as comfortable around town. Worse visibility too. 

I think the biggest difference is just position and wind resistance.

I do find it easy to go faster riding fixed gear, at least on the flats. The only time I could ride with the weekly A group was fixed.

Best,

Aaron

[aeroperf]

Road bike: 1982 Team Fuji with all 2018 equipment (3x9-spd Sora w/105 brakes, 622x28 tires, drops)
Riv bike: 2015 Sam Hillborn set up per factory (3x9-spd Suguino/Shimano w/Tektro rim brakes, 622x42 tires, Albatross)
Both bikes had Sigma BC.12.12 computers which were calibrated.

The road bike averaged 11.6 mph on 5 trials and the Sam averaged 11.2 mph on 5 trials.

To me, the big differences seemed to be in the gearing and rider position.  The Fuji has a 50 tooth big chainring, while my Sam has a 46 tooth.
Weight seemed at best a secondary effect.  The Fuji is 28 lb while the Sam is 30.5 lb., but I’m 210 lb.
For another comparison, my 31.5 pound Soma Saga Disc heavy touring bike averaged just less than 11.1 mph on the same 5 trials.  It’s big chainring has 44 teeth.

[A. Douglas M.]

Aeroperf,

We’re you exerting the same effort each time? I find myself not wanting to go fast on my albatross bikes. I think that plays a big part in it. I can match speeds on my 29+ but it’s not as fun and it’s not the point of the bike. So unless I was purposely trying to match speeds, I never would.

Best,

Aaron

P.s. Nice Fuji.

[John Hawrylak]

aeroprof

The 2.5 lb weight difference (Fuji vs Sam) is worth 0.2 mph (1lb =12 mph) and would correct the LIGHTER Fuji time by subtracting 0.2mph to compare to the Sam, or 

Fuji corrected = 11.4 mph     Sam = 11.2 mph

The 0.2mph seems insignificant, probably within the statistical variation of 5 trials

It would seem the Sam's riding position is not a large negative effect.   Perhaps the Sam is not as upright as the Soma

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Clark Fitzgerald]

Thanks aeroperf! So on your touring style Rivendell you were 100 * 11.2 / 11.6 = 96.5% as fast as your road bike. Now we have three data points! I hope to see some more...

Rider, PercentSpeed

Clark, 82

Fullylugged, 99

aeroperf, 96.5

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[aeroperf]

Aaron - Yes, it was about the same amount of effort.  I wasn’t trying to match speeds, and didn’t.  I live on a rails-to-trails and know it pretty well, and I don’t match day to day on a given bike.  Some days are windier, some are hotter.  On the Sam I’ve done the same ride at 10.9 mph and 11.6 mph over the years.  So I picked “the last 5 rides to the caboose” for all bikes and took an average.

John - The riding position, for me, is most uncomfortable on the road bike, because I just don’t bend that well anymore.  I ride the hoods, and very rarely try to ride the drops.  Also, since the photo, I’ve lowered the Soma’s Osprey bars 2 inches, because it was just too upright for comfort on a long trip.  So over the years my bikes are all trending towards the same rider position.

The Sam is my favorite - I spent three years trying different gearing and saddles and wearing it into shape.  So I’m surprised that the Fuji beat it.  115 psi tires versus 50 psi tires?  Anyway, keep those data points coming.

[John Hawrylak]

Clark

I suggest aeroprof ratio is 98.2% after correcting for the weight difference.   It agrees very well with Fully Lugged's ratio, showing little effect

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ.

[Clark Fitzgerald]

John,

Good idea to correct for weight differences. Better to record the data as it appears as a new variable, and then apply any corrections later to the entire data set after the fact, so we have:

Rider, PercentSpeed, WeightDiffLbs

Clark, 82, 15

Fullylugged, 99, NA

aeroperf, 96.5, 2.5

Yes, my touring bike is at least 15 lbs heavier than my road bike.

We could take this "recording more variables" idea much further and make tables for rider, bike, route, and ride, and record all kinds of variables for each one. If I had infinite time...

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