ISO Better Bar-End Friction Shifting!

[Caroline Golum]

Currently running 1x10 and friction bar-end shifting. The chain keeps coming off my crank, not hitting the right gear in the rear, etc. I've had the derailleur serviced, it's fine, etc.

Time to get a new shifter? Switch to indexed shifting? Switch to an 8/9spd in the rear? The bar-end shifter is RBW's Shifter - Silver2. 

[Eliot Balogh]

That sounds like an issue with chain retention and not the shifter. Clutch RD ? New rings ? New chain ?

On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 10:32 AM Caroline Golum <carolin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Currently running 1x10 and friction bar-end shifting. The chain keeps coming off my crank, not hitting the right gear in the rear, etc. I've had the derailleur serviced, it's fine, etc.

Time to get a new shifter? Switch to indexed shifting? Switch to an 8/9spd in the rear? The bar-end shifter is RBW's Shifter - Silver2. 

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[lconley]

Did the derailleur service include verification that the derailleur hanger is straight?

Agree that it is unlikely to be a shifter issue.

Laing

[Caroline Golum]

Thanks everyone! I had the chain + cassette replaced in February, both new parts, so I'm assuming they both have plenty of life left. 

The last mechanic I spoke with assured me the limits on my derailleur were good. FWIW I've had the same Shimano 105 rear derailleur since I built the bike in 2009. 

[lconley]

I will take that as a no, the derailleur hanger was not checked. I would make sure that the derailleur hanger was straight.

Laing

[Caroline Golum]

Thanks Laing, appreciate it <3

[Piaw Na]

If the chain is coming off the crank, my experience is (1) you need a narrow-wide chainring -- if you don't have one, you need to get one. (2) the rear derailleur might not have a clutch. (3) you might have excessive chain length. Too much chain and your 1x setup will be prone to derailling.

[Garth]

So the "chain keeps coming off the crank" ..... where ? (inner ring or outer or both ?) When ? (any particular cogs or all of them, terrains, bumps, etc ? )

What bike frame and how long are chainstays ? Which crank and ring ?

Without knowing that offhand, myfirst thoughts are also the derailleur hanger, and the position of the chainring relative to the cassette. Is the chain relatively straight in which cog, 5 or 6 ?  If you have something long, thin and straight that may help to "see straight".

If the chain is not staying put in a given gear though that really points to a crooked hanger, at least initially.

Check the proper chain length easily here https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/chain-length

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Caroline

Might want to consider installing a N-Gear Jump Stop or similar chain stop device on the seat tube to prevent the chain from coming off.  Sounds like when you shift, you develop a wave in the chain which takes it off the ring

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Caroline Golum]

Part of this issue too, FWIW, is my ongoing frustration with hitting specific gears with a friction shifter. If the chain slack is the culprit or the derailleur hanger then it takes care of two problems and I don't hate that!

[Ted W]

I agree with the other folks here, if it’s popping off the chainring, is it popping off inside or outside? Was the bike originally a 1x or did you do a conversion? If you converted it, did you reuse an old double/triple crank? Did you put the ring on the inside or outside of the spider? Did you use a narrow-wide chainring?

All of these things are important and can affect the reliability of the chain staying on the chainring. Usually this will either be because of, as others have said, chain tension or lack of a clutched derailer if it’s popping off over bumps. If it’s popping off when shifting, I’d be suspicious of your chain line.

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Ted Wood < ted.l...@gmail.com >

[lconley]

The reason I suggest the chain hanger is that on one of my 1x bikes, recently, the chain suddenly started not wanting to stay on the chainring (VO chainring on SunXCD cranks - low miles on both). I got to looking at it and the chain appeared to be twisted where it got to the chainring. Further inspection revealed that the chain appeared to be twisted everywhere, then I looked at the bike from the rear, and the derailleur was obviously slanted in relation to the freewheel. I got out the hanger tool and straightened out the hanger - problem solved. The bike had apparently fallen over and bent the hanger in, the large pulley Altus derailleur was fine though. 

Laing

On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 1:32:44 PM UTC-4 Caroline Golum wrote:

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Caroline

You could quickly check if your chain length (# of links) is correct by using this formula:

# links = 2 * {(2*ChainStay Length (inches)) + 1/4*(# ChainRing Teeth + # Largest Cog) + 1}

You can measure the chainstay length or if your frame is a RBW, look it up in the geo charts.   Older RBW's tend to have 44 to 45 cm stays (17.3 to 17.7 inches).  Since you have a 1 x drive train, you dont have to worry about which ring to use.

If your actual # links is much greater than this value, your chain may have too much slack.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 1:32:44 PM UTC-4 Caroline Golum wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

I searched the list history and Caroline Golum has traditionally been riding a 2009 era Betty Foy.  It was their only bike and a daily rider, so we may be talking about a Betty Foy (and a 105 Rear Derailleur) with upwards of 50,000 miles on it.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Wesley]

Caroline,

If you recently had the chain and cassette replace, then your problems with the chain dropping may be because the chainring is worn. Most chainrings are aluminum, which wears faster than steel cogs. And since the same chainring is used for all riding while the cogs are changed by shifting, the wear is more concentrated on the chainring. Both of these lead to chainrings wiring out faster than cogs, and a worn chainring will not hold the chain securely. This can act in combination with problems others hav suggested here - especially bent detailer hanger and too-slack chain - to drop the chain off the chainring.

-Wes

[Piaw Na]

You mean like this? 

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 4:03:37 PM UTC-7 KenP wrote:

sometimes a chainring gets bumped and half bent out of alignment

[iamkeith]

If I understand correctly that the problems began iafter february, when you had the cassette and chain replaced, I wonder if something was done wrong or poorly, or even just different. For instance:  

- Does the chain width (referred to by the number of rear sprockets it is intended to work with) match the rest of drivetrain?  Including the derailleurs (width of shift cage), chainrings (width of rings and spacing between them) and cassette (number of cogs plus same width/spacing concerns as with rings).  One of the benefits of friction shifting is that you can usually get away with mixing and matching a bit.  For instance, a 9 speed chain on rings spaced for an 8 speed era drivetrain, or a 10 speed cassette.  Or a narrower 10 speed chain working on an otherwise all-9 speed system.  Etc., etc.  But if you're not super comfortable with friction, you're going to be better off if everything matches.  

- is there a wobble in the cassette when the wheel is spinning?  Maybe it got installed with some dirt behind it, or with the lockring not fully secured?

Otherwise, I agree with many of the above suggestions as place to start and things to rule out, and that it doesn't strike me as a "shifter" issue at all:  Hanger alignment; possibility that you're simply worn out the chainrings or rear derailleur.  (The former woul appear as "shart-fin" tooth profiles, and the latter would be evidenced by any play in the mechanism if you try to wiggle it.)

Lastly,  make sure your drive-side crank arm isn't working loose from the bottom bracket spindle.

[JohnS]

This thread is getting kind of long, so excuse me if this has already been mentioned, but has the derailleur cable and it's housing been replaced recently? Over time some dirt can build up and cause friction, which can cause poor shifting, especially for bar end shifters. Also, one time I had a cable strand come un-wound when I slid the cable into the short section of cable housing between the frame and the derailleur. That caused a lot of poor shifting until I replaced the cable. It wasn't obvious since the unwound cable strand was inside of the housing.

JohnS