Travel bikes

[Jay Lonner]

I'm interested in building up travel bikes for my wife and me. Our intended use is credit card touring in continental Europe and the British Isles. We also have a developing interest in cruising the Salish Sea, so I'd like something small enough to store belowdecks out of the corrosive marine environment, and that would be easy to get ashore via dinghy.

It seems that there are many ways to proceed, ranging from S&S couplers to 20" wheel designs like Bike Friday to rinko. All have their proponents and detractors. My priorities are comfort, ease of assembly/disassembly, avoidance of proprietary/specialized parts, and the ability to fit racks, fenders, and lights. I prefer plodding utilitarian considerations to zippy performance.

While our daily rides embrace Riv-approved technologies such as rim brakes and friction shifting, I am open to other options for these proposed travel bikes. When we're away from home I'm really looking for something bombproof. Rear derailleurs strike me as a particular vulnerability, especially on bikes with 20" wheels. At the moment I'm leaning towards designs that utilize a Rohloff hub.

Anyway, so many choices, so many tradeoffs - I'm stuck! What would you do within the design constraints outlined above, if budget weren't really a consideration? (That's one of the nice things about bikes - even an extravagant build is super affordable compared to boats.)

Help me RBW collective, you're my only hope!

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

[Joe Bernard]

Brompton covers bombproof, fenders and good bag carrying ability, easy/small fold and no derailleurs. But it's such an obvious first choice that I suspect you're looking for something that isn't a Brompton.

[Eric Norris]

If you’re just noodling around, how about Brompton? You can get bags and racks and really load them down if you like, or keep it simple for riding around town. Standard hard case meets the max size requirement for checked baggage on Southwest and other airlines. Quick and easy to fold/unfold.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[Eric Norris]

P.S. Russ and Laura at PathLessPedaled have used Bromptons for fully loaded touring, proving that it *can* be done:

https://www.youtube.com./watch?v=PxCOB_EKOGc&list=PLlwgJTJiCVEbOsbCVK920Pm8_UQyYy3rR 

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

On Jun 18, 2020, at 4:41 PM, Jay Lonner <jay.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Jay Lonner]

My understanding is that Bromptons would collide with my criterion of "avoidance of proprietary/specialized parts." Also, I have regarded Bromptons as great city bikes, but not necessarily optimized for multiday 40+ mile tours. But it's been a while, so I'll take another look.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/6E28FCCC-5F01-4979-BF0B-C75C467E674D%40me.com.

[Steven Sweedler]

Jay, here is a link to a couple I met while touring the Yucatan. They had a Bike Friday Pocket   Llama and NWT with at least one Rohloff hub. 20 x  2” tires that did ok on some roads with soft sand. He had to plead with BF to sell him the bare frame, not sure if that is still the case.   Steve

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=1mr&page_id=492841&v=AN

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:41 PM Jay Lonner <jay.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm interested in building up travel bikes for my wife and me. Our intended use is credit card touring in continental Europe and the British Isles. We also have a developing interest in cruising the Salish Sea, so I'd like something small enough to store belowdecks out of the corrosive marine environment, and that would be easy to get ashore via dinghy.

It seems that there are many ways to proceed, ranging from S&S couplers to 20" wheel designs like Bike Friday to rinko. All have their proponents and detractors. My priorities are comfort, ease of assembly/disassembly, avoidance of proprietary/specialized parts, and the ability to fit racks, fenders, and lights. I prefer plodding utilitarian consider

While our daily rides embrace Riv-approved technologies such as rim brakes and friction shifting, I am open to other options for these proposed travel bikes. When we're away from home I'm really looking for something bombproof. Rear derailleurs strike me as a particular vulnerability, especially on bikes with 20" wheels. At the moment I'm leaning towards designs that utilize a Rohloff hub.

Anyway, so many choices, so many tradeoffs - I'm stuck! What would you do within the design constraints outlined above, if budget weren't really a consideration? (That's one of the nice things about bikes - even an extravagant build is super affordable compared to boats.)

Help me RBW collective, you're my only hope!

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[Drw]

I’m kinda in this same boat. I had a brompton for about a year, purchased for similar reasons, and just sold it a couple of weeks ago.
Number one reason is that I couldn’t see riding a brompton much of a distance. People do, and that’s great. I could not ever really appreciate the ride quality. The 16” wheels + skinny tires were the main issue, and I want the option to go off road sometimes. For putting around town or multi modal transport, id definitely go with a brompton. It kind of boggles my mind that brompton doesn’t offer a bike with more tire clearance, but they are super successful, so what do I know.
Right now I’m More or less set on a bike Friday. Packing the bike up a little slower than a brompton isn’t a problem for my intentions and they offer a full range from racey to expedition. Also you can use mostly normal bike parts, and drop bars are a huge plus for me. Pretty sure they do rohloff also.

[Drw]

Also to Steve’s point. I’ve been in recent contact with BF, I wouldn’t say you have to plead to get a bare frame, but they definitely Do try to steer you to their build.

[Robert Tilley]

I avoided Brompton's for the same reason. I wanted to avoid proprietary parts and went with Bike Friday bikes. I had a New World Tourist, a Tikit and a Project Q tandem at various times in the past. I found them all to be a bit fiddly and all required more maintenance than typical bikes would.

I then picked up a Brompton and have been very impressed with the bike. So much so that I now have two. I have over 3,000 miles on one and just over 2,000 miles on the other and nothing has needed to be done to them outside of replacing tires on one. They have been extremely reliable for me. I wouldn't worry about the proprietary parts aspect of the Brompton.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

Sent from my BlackBerry - the most secure mobile device

From: jay.l...@gmail.com Sent: June 18, 2020 5:07 PM To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com Reply-to: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [RBW] Travel bikes

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[Joe Bernard]

There's the BF Pakit. It's a 16-inch-wheeler like Brompton and folds down almost as compact, but lighter and uses less propietary parts. I haven't seen one with a Rohloff but I'm sure it can be done, they sell one with an Alfine IGH.

[Lyman Labry]

I own two Bike Fridays.  Pocket LLama and a Pocket Rocket Pro.  I’ve used both for touring in Europe, North America, and UK.   On road and off road with Llama.  Was preparing for Vietnam when Covid struck. 

Standard chain ring and derailleur setup.  Easy to repair anywhere.  I’d avoid disc brakes. Super comfortable bikes for multi mile days. The PRP uses 20” 451 tires so maybe not ideal if taking abroad in out of the way places.  I pack a foldable spare though. The NWT is probably your best friend.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:55 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

There's the BF Pakit. It's a 16-inch-wheeler like Brompton and folds down almost as compact, but lighter and uses less propietary parts. I haven't seen one with a Rohloff but I'm sure it can be done, they sell one with an Alfine IGH.

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[Ian A]

Have you also considered a Moulton? I don't own one and have never ridden one, so others would need to weigh in. But, I had a great chat with a fellow on the road the other day. He has a new (Pashley) Moulton, 20" wheels. The bike splits in two for travel. A lot more money than a Bike Friday or Brompton, but a good sealed road distance bike. Proprietory parts though.

FWIW he is very happy with it.

IanA Alberta Canada

[Joe Bernard]

Oh, I forgot to mention why I specified the Pakit. Other Bike Fridays I've owned - the New World Tourist style most of their 20" wheel bikes use - were a lot more cumbersome to fold. They really are travel bikes for breaking down and packing into cases if that's what you're looking for. Which you might, they're good riding bikes for the longer distances you plan to do.

Or just get Velo-Orange Neutrinos. They don't fold or split, but the 20" inch wheels may make them compact enough.

[Drw]

Why would you avoid discs? Just curious

[Bill Schairer]

I have a BF NWT and have done two one week semi-loaded tours on Route 66 with it, used it Australia, British Columbia on trails even, in Austria, and commuted on it folding and unfolding it every day to ride in the elevator with me (I didn’t like my outdoor locking options). Was going to take it to Japan in March but COVID struck. The bike has served me well.

Bill S

[Lyman Labry]

In my experience, the rotors may be bent when the suitcase is roughly handled by airlines. I solved that by removing and packing them separately. 

But that’s time consuming. 

Also: Heavy and I don’t think they’re necessary. I found I was spending a lot of time tweaking after transport.  Often in an airport. Drag. 

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:31 PM Drw <drewbe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why would you avoid discs? Just curious

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[Christopher Murray]

I would get a Bike Friday NWT. At the end of the day, I think it is the best compromise between quality, fit, convenience, and price. 

I love my Brompton but would never tour on it. Yes, it can be done but anything can be done. That doesn’t make it enjoyable. When we were riding cross country (Seattle to Boston) we met a guy going the other way (Boston to Seattle) on a UNICYCLE. Yes, it can be done but....

Coupled bikes are just too expensive. You can get a Bike Friday for the price of the couplers and installation. Plus the case always seems huge and heavy. Maybe there are some better cases out their but not that I’ve seen. 

Let us know what you decide! 

Cheers,

Chris

[Reid Echols]

I wonder if the Velo Orange Neutron is worth considering? Or, if you’re ok with some creative or just plain stubborn gearing, the Crust breakaway Lightning Bolt?

[Nate in Oakland]

While there, are you planning on using transportation that would not allow a full sized bike on board? On my tours, I just box my riv and fly it with me. Many airlines have very affordable rates for bike box luggage. Why not have your best moments on your favorite bike?

Nate

[Jay Lonner]

So the Neutrino is on my radar and has many appealing qualities. However, I would need size XXL, which per the website is too big to qualify as regular packed luggage. So that got me thinking about adding S&S couplers, but in that case might I be better off with something like the Surly Troll? The permutations add up quickly. BF is a safe choice, since this is their bread and butter, but I can't help but consider alternatives.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:20 PM Reid Echols <reide...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wonder if the Velo Orange Neutron is worth considering? Or, if you’re ok with some creative or just plain stubborn gearing, the Crust breakaway Lightning Bolt?

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[Jay Lonner]

My favorite bike is a 62cm Hunqapillar with a Pass and Stow porteur rack and 710mm Jones bars. I love it, but it is a beast. It is not optimized for travel. I wouldn't even try to fit it into a dinghy for island explorations - I have a hard enough time getting it onto the roof rack of my Jetta.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

[Shoji Takahashi]

Have you considered Ritchey Breakaway frames? I don't have direct experience with them. When I've seen them and spoke to the riders, they like them. I think the breakaway system is elegant.

shoji

Arlington MA

On Thursday, June 18, 2020 at 10:47:39 PM UTC-4, Jay Lonner wrote:

My favorite bike is a 62cm Hunqapillar with a Pass and Stow porteur rack and 710mm Jones bars. I love it, but it is a beast. It is not optimized for travel. I wouldn't even try to fit it into a dinghy for island explorations - I have a hard enough time getting it onto the roof rack of my Jetta.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:37 PM Jay Lonner <jay....@gmail.com> wrote:

So the Neutrino is on my radar and has many appealing qualities. However, I would need size XXL, which per the website is too big to qualify as regular packed luggage. So that got me thinking about adding S&S couplers, but in that case might I be better off with something like the Surly Troll? The permutations add up quickly. BF is a safe choice, since this is their bread and butter, but I can't help but consider alternatives.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:20 PM Reid Echols <reide...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wonder if the Velo Orange Neutron is worth considering? Or, if you’re ok with some creative or just plain stubborn gearing, the Crust breakaway Lightning Bolt?

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[Joe Bernard]

Ok, here's my plan. A TIGed Clem-ish Riv 20" wheel bike with Ritchey couplers. It'll size down to a kids bike which is something Grant wanted to do, plus be an all-growed-up mini velo travel bike. Whaddyathink? 🙂

[Drw]

In

[Kent Peterson -- Eugene, Oregon]

OK, bias alert. I work in the service department of Bike Friday. I've logged a hell of a lot of miles on New World Tourists and I've seen what people manage to bust on tours.

I'd like to point out one contradiction in your inclinations: You want to avoid proprietary parts but you are leaning towards a a Rohloff hub. The Rohloff is a lovely piece of work that rarely fails, but can fail. It has a proprietary shifter with proprietary cables.

Many of our customers who get Rohloffs or Alfines also get Gates belt drives. Again, proprietary. If you bend a Gates cog, good luck finding one at a local bike shop.

If I was building a bike for myself for your use case scenario, I'd go with either a New World Tourist or a Pocket Llama. With a conventional derailler drivetrain. When I pack it in the suitcase, I'd unbolt the rear derailler. More bikes get messed up in the suitcase than get messed up on the road.

Anyway, that's my $.02

BTW, Bike Friday is running a skeleton crew under partial COVID lockdown & deliveries across our supply chains are shot to hell. Delivery times for new bikes are out into the fall right now.

Kent Peterson
Eugene, OR USA

[Lyman Labry]

I’ll second Kent’s comments especially the one that “more bikes get messed up in a suitcase than messed up on the road”.  

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[Abcyclehank]

Jay,

Knowing your regular bike size and your wife's makes a huge difference especially regarding comfort! I am 6’6” once had a 66cm bike Friday which road comfortably and surprisingly like my other full size bikes. Yet my wife thought I looked like a bear on a bike in a circus. The packing took just as long almost as assembling and packing a bike with S&S couplers. If you can invest 20 minutes on each end only a break away bike will ride with the comfort and familiarity I would want CC touring 40+ mile days slowly exploring.
I have had 3 Rivs with couplers. A 62cm Custom, a 68cm Atlantis, and a 53cm Atlantis for my wife. All are packable in a 26x26 x8 case. Only the Atlantis took over 20 minutes.
I have ridden a Brompton and BF 16” wheeled bikes and would only use in urban situations and if using public transportation.
Anyone under 6’ has a very different perspective because the difference between their foldable bike is not that drastically different as one would be to a 62cm Hunq.
Maybe I am more susceptible to the variation than many others.
The boat trip is a separate beast. More like a bus I would want a folder (maybe a Brompton) but could never see myself exceeding 25+ miles a day on one.

Good luck. Biking is an amazing activity to combine with vacationing. Something about the pace of exploring and observing a new place.

Sincerely,
Ryan Hankinson
West Michigan

[Joe Bernard]

That's a good point, Ryan. I'm a short guy and my Brompton is just on the cusp of too big for me.

[Andrew Letton]

We have a Bike Friday Pocket Llama and an AirGlide, both mid- to late-90's vintage. I grew up on Dad's salmon troller and have spent much of my life "messing about in boats", so when I bought the AirGlide, I did not order the BF suitcase, but rather a very large Pelican Case. The AirGlide is no longer sold, and I don't know which other BFs will fit in a Pelican, but I'm sure some models of BF fit in some models of Pelican. If you want a truly waterproof case for your bike, Pelican will do it. The Pelicans are admittedly heavy, and I sometimes have to put some of the bike (seat/post or crankset) in my other luggage to keep it under the airline weight limit, but that's never been a big issue for me. Looking at the Pelican site, I see that there are SO many more options available now than there were 20+ years ago when I bought mine, including a whole new line of lighter weight cases. I think mine is a 1650, but the iM2950 seems to be about the same size and 1.5kg lighter, and the Pelican Air cases are even lighter. One more thing to note: my AirGlide has 406 wheels, and they barely fit in the 1650 case (I must deflate the tires to fit), so a 451 wheel would probably not fit.

One more plug for Bike Friday: IME, they are great people and provide the best customer service of ANY company I've ever purchased anything from...OK; I'll say on-par with RBW. :-)

Have fun spec'ing and riding whatever you choose!

cheers,

Andrew

On Friday, June 19, 2020, 09:41:32 AM GMT+10, Jay Lonner <jay.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm interested in building up travel bikes for my wife and me. Our intended use is credit card touring in continental Europe and the British Isles. We also have a developing interest in cruising the Salish Sea, so I'd like something small enough to store belowdecks out of the corrosive marine environment, and that would be easy to get ashore via dinghy.

It seems that there are many ways to proceed, ranging from S&S couplers to 20" wheel designs like Bike Friday to rinko. All have their proponents and detractors. My priorities are comfort, ease of assembly/disassembly, avoidance of proprietary/specialized parts, and the ability to fit racks, fenders, and lights. I prefer plodding utilitarian considerations to zippy performance.

While our daily rides embrace Riv-approved technologies such as rim brakes and friction shifting, I am open to other options for these proposed travel bikes. When we're away from home I'm really looking for something bombproof. Rear derailleurs strike me as a particular vulnerability, especially on bikes with 20" wheels. At the moment I'm leaning towards designs that utilize a Rohloff hub.

Anyway, so many choices, so many tradeoffs - I'm stuck! What would you do within the design constraints outlined above, if budget weren't really a consideration? (That's one of the nice things about bikes - even an extravagant build is super affordable compared to boats.)

Help me RBW collective, you're my only hope!

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

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[Chris L]

If cost were not an option, I would look at R&E's UTB with travel option and Rohloff.  It's a 26" wheel bike that fits in a 26" x 26" case.  Not inexpensive but it's a normal bike when put together.  

https://www.rodbikes.com/catalog/utb/utb-main.html

[Steven Sweedler]

There are two Rojloff Bike Friday’s on eBay a small and a large Steve

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[Eric Daume]

I'm becoming a BF fan. I have a Crusoe that I really enjoy riding--it's actually my main roadish bike. My only folding of it is to throw it in my car trunk occasionally, but it works OK for that. It does ride very much like a normal bike.

At 6'3", most standard one-sized folders are too small for me; BF's available sizing is helpful.

I also have a Swift Xootr. It's fun in it's own way, more solid feeling than the BF, but not nearly so spirited to ride. And the fold is much, much bigger. But both bikes take normal hubs, stems, bars, etc. That makes them easy to service and fun to tinker with.

By comparison, the Dahon I had before the BF and Xootr felt like a loose collection of parts going down the road.

Eric

On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:41 PM Jay Lonner <jay.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm interested in building up travel bikes for my wife and me. Our intended use is credit card touring in continental Europe and the British Isles. We also have a developing interest in cruising the Salish Sea, so I'd like something small enough to store belowdecks out of the corrosive marine environment, and that would be easy to get ashore via dinghy.

It seems that there are many ways to proceed, ranging from S&S couplers to 20" wheel designs like Bike Friday to rinko. All have their proponents and detractors. My priorities are comfort, ease of assembly/disassembly, avoidance of proprietary/specialized parts, and the ability to fit racks, fenders, and lights. I prefer plodding utilitarian considerations to zippy performance.

While our daily rides embrace Riv-approved technologies such as rim brakes and friction shifting, I am open to other options for these proposed travel bikes. When we're away from home I'm really looking for something bombproof. Rear derailleurs strike me as a particular vulnerability, especially on bikes with 20" wheels. At the moment I'm leaning towards designs that utilize a Rohloff hub.

Anyway, so many choices, so many tradeoffs - I'm stuck! What would you do within the design constraints outlined above, if budget weren't really a consideration? (That's one of the nice things about bikes - even an extravagant build is super affordable compared to boats.)

Help me RBW collective, you're my only hope!

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

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[Robb]

I've owned several BF, S&S coupled Surly LHT & Salsa Vaya Travel, Ritchie BreakAway and a Brompton each with a different purpose and each with some issues. Recently built a Velo-Orange Neutrino Mini-Velo. If you do not need an XL which is outsize then it is a good option with relatively short packing/assembly/un-assembly time compared to some of the others yet as stable as a RBW ride. You can build it anyway you want provided to go with disc brakes.

[Jay Lonner]

I concede that Rohloff uses proprietary components that would be challenging to service in the field. I take some inspiration from the folks at Tumbleweed, who prefer them for bikepacking - I figure if they’re reliable enough for the Gobi desert I should be OK riding one around Mallorca. And I’ll fess up that I’m tempted by the gee-whiz aspect as well.

Still, the point stands that I’m most comfortable with legacy tech like friction-shifted derailleurs and rim brakes, and there is value in being able to troubleshoot and service my own gear. How much customization does BF allow - will they balk at Silver shifters and Paul Motolites?

I’m in no hurry to get this project off the ground - I’m in the contemplation and planning stage. My touring plans are on hold indefinitely while Covid plays out, and to some extent planning a build like this is a surrogate for the trips I’m not taking this year.

Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA

Sent from my Atari 400

> On Jun 18, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Kent Peterson -- Eugene, Oregon <kent...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> OK, bias alert. I work in the service department of Bike Friday. I've logged a hell of a lot of miles on New World Tourists and I've seen what people manage to bust on tours.

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[Eric Daume]

You may be able to order a frame from BF. I’ve talked to them about this in the past, but never proceeded. Their frame cost was only about $400 cheaper than their cheapest build model. And they seem to really hit you hard to upgrade components. If you can’t order a frame, I would suggest ordering the cheapest build and then upgrading parts on your own. 

Eric

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[Kent Peterson -- Eugene, Oregon]

Jay,

Bike Friday allows an INSANE amount of customization. I sometimes say that we have over 40,000 "one-offs" out in the world. Damn near every bike that goes out the door has something unique that was specified to meet a customer's requirement or request.

Your best bet is to call Bike Friday and talk to Walter. He's the sales guy who is the most into geeking out on components. With the pandemic he's working from home now but I think you still just call 800-777-0258 & things get routed. At the very least you leave a number and Walter calls you back.

Kent Peterson

Eugene, OR USA

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[aeroperf]

After living in Europe for years and then going over for tours for years, I got tired of rent-a-bikes.  For a while I used Nate in Oakland’s solution and shipped my Sam.  Finally I built up what I consider a perfect credit card touring bike, and based it over there.
So - a Soma Saga with Shimano T-6000 drive, 700c wheels/tires, and Tektro brakes.  All common parts over there.
I keep it with a friend, and if I don’t stop at their place first, have them ship it to an LBS wherever I tour.  You could also keep it at an LBS over there.

If budget is not a consideration, get a separate bike for cruising the Salish Sea.

[Joe Bernard]

You can build a BF with friction and MotoLites for sure. If you don't start with frame-only you can always get the complete 'basic build' NWT with v-brakes and be annoyed at how well it works before ditching the parts for stuff you prefer.

[Wyatt]

I'm going to be the third to chime in with Nate and Aeroperf. I was living in Southeast Asia for most of the past couple of years and have found airlines, in general, are very accommodating to the standard bicycle in a cardboard box. Some airlines even include it in the price, depending on your ticket and destination. Having realized how simple that process is (get your bike packed up at a LBS, basic reassembly at your destination, etc.) I can't imagine buying a folding travel bike or 20" wheel build, which always seems like a compromise in terms of riding. Would much rather just be on my own ideal bike.

As for sea travel, I suppose that's harder to say. A dinghy, in my experience, is a lot like a pick-up truck bed. If you can throw your bike in a pick-up truck, you should be able to throw it in a dinghy. Space concerns for "below deck" at sea seem nebulous and hard to quantify, so maybe that's the rub? But it still seems like a small problem to solve. Again, I'd rather just go with whatever is the best bike for the riding you're doing, pack it up well in a cardboard box on the way there and back.

[John A. Bennett]

Interesting Rivendell-related footnote:

The Bleriot decals and head badge were originally designed for a take-apart travel bike (along the lines of the Ritchey "break-away"). 

Never happened, and when the opportunity to make a frame in collaboration with QBP came up, the Bleriot decals, etc. were appropriated for that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Bl%C3%A9riot

Bon Soir,

John in Portland, Ore. 

[Joe Bernard]

John, didn't that turn into a Dahon project? I vaguely recall a Breakaway road bike from them that was referenced as having some design influence from Grant.

[Jay Lonner]

Follow up question - when flying with a bike of any sort there’s the question of what to do with the case. I know that BF offers a trailer conversion but I prefer panniers. People also talk about shipping the empty case to your destination, or even using a cardboard box that you dispose of upon arrival, and scrounging up a new one prior to departure. Is using a minimalist soft case (like a rinko bag) in checked luggage just a terribad idea, or are there clever ways to make it work?

Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA

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> On Jun 19, 2020, at 4:19 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> John, didn't that turn into a Dahon project? I vaguely recall a Breakaway road bike from them that was referenced as having some design influence from Grant.

>
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[John A. Bennett]

I don't remember that, Joe. Not saying it didn't happen; I just don't have a memory of it. 

The only bike I recall Grant having direct input on was the SOMA San Marcos, which we sold at RBW. 

He did give some advice to XtraCycle about head-tube angles early on, as I recall. Don't quote me on that, though.

 

John

[Julian Westerhout]

Jay, this thread got me interested in doing a comparison. I own a Brompton, and have a good friend with a Bike Friday NWT. I asked him if i could borrow the BF for a few extended test rides and comparison -- he said sure. 

I've now done a few short rides on the BF, and think it rides well -- perhaps a bit more responsive than my Brompton, but pretty comparable. 

I then compared the relative fit of both to my 68 cm Atlantis (I'm on the outer edge of small folder fit) -- I was surprised to note that the seat, feet, and hands positions are all fairly close for my setups. 

The BF and Brompton are a very small amount shorter than the Atlantis in saddle to bar distance, although both could be tweaked a little. I will note that for me both the Brompton and BF fit and ride far better than other folders I've tried (DaHon, etc.) -- I think in in large part because they are not too far off "regular" bike fit on the three contact points.  YMMV. 

I've attached a photo that sort of shows the comparison. 

IMHO, the Brompton is amazing for quick, compact folds -- so if folding is something you'd do a time or two a day it's the way to go. The BF is very nicely made, and seems to be a very nice machine. 

FWIW, my friend has this one (a large) and a smaller (medium) blue one, both in pristine condition with cases, and I think he's possibly ready to move them along (they no longer do bike travel) -- if anyone has interest I can enquire and post more on them. 

Regards, 

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Bill Schairer]

Julian,
Do the Bromptons have the same gear range as the BF? The only folder I’ve ever ridden is my BF NWT with gearing range comparable to my “regular” bikes. I’ve been under the impression, possibly false, that most folders don’t have that capability. As far as folding and unfolding, I have no comparisons to make but, as I mentioned earlier, I folded and unfolded my BF every day when I used it for a commuter, which is to say it was easy enough that it didn’t discourage use. I believe mine even required an additional step from the normal process. Now, if I were to go out and try to fold mine now, I would fumble around a bit but if one is doing it regularly, it really isn’t any big deal.

Bill S

[Joe Bernard]

What I found fiddly to the point of unlivable with my NWT (derailer model) when folding was it was a project to keep the chain on, and the stem/mast just popped off and you rested it on the bike. Brompton folds efficiently and startlingly small into one easy-carry package.

I wouldn't claim - and don't know the numbers - that a 6-speed Brommie has the full gear range of a BF triple, but it's a pretty wide range. My Brom has a smaller than standard chainring to climb my hill and the top gear is still taller than I usually ride.

[Joe Bernard]

But of course - circling back to the OP - Brompton is a great folder that rides. Bike Friday is a better bike for long distance that can also be folded and packed. I'm not doing 40 miles on my Brompton, and probably not 10.

[eddietheflay]

the Dahon Tournado was rumored to have had input from Grant:

https://www.fawkes-cycles.co.uk/1547710/products/dahon-tournado-700c-bike.aspx

[Joe Bernard]

There it is! I don't know if GP had any hand in the geometry but the high bars and component list are certainly mid-'00s Riv Country Bike stuff, which still wasn't a widespread thing back then.

[Julian Westerhout]

Bill, 

I think that depends upon how you have both bikes set up. The Brompton is available with 1to 6 gears, and i think the BF is available with 1 to 21 gears, with widely varying ratios., 

In my case I have a 6-speed Brompton (3-speed internal plus a 2 speed freewheel), my friend's BF has 18 gears (3 speed internal plus a 9 speed cassette). I've not checked the actual gear inch range of both, but my seat of the pants feeling is that the overall range is similar, but with bigger jumps between gears on the Brompton, and that both have pretty wide range gearing suitable for most types of terrain one would likely encounter -- similar to what i'd regard as a well set up "regular" bike. 

It is of course possible to get either with very different gearing, so...

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Julian Westerhout]

In my relatively short tests I  was surprised how similar both the Brompton and BF felt to me -- the smaller wheel and narrower tire on the Brompton gave a bit more bumpiness, but the elastomer rear end on the Brompton smoothed that out. I was expecting a bigger =difference -- but at least in my case i found both a pleasure to ride and neither of them created any "geez, what am I doing" moments. If you are a large fellow like me you will look like a curcus bear on ewither one -- but that's not bad -- both bikes drew equally large numbers of smiles and friendly comments from folks on the MUT. 

I cannot comment of 40+ mile rides loaded on either, but I'd imagine I'd be good on either one. For me the difference would probably come down to how often i'd want to fold it and how quickly -- if the fold is key the Brompton is hard to beat. 

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Robert Tilley]

The standard 6 speed Brompton has a gear range of 33 - 100 gear inches so just above a 300% range. The -12% runs 29 - 88 gear inches. I have one of each of those currently.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

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From: weste...@gmail.com Sent: June 21, 2020 4:01 PM To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com Reply-to: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com Subject: [RBW] Re: Travel bikes

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[Bill Schairer]

Julian,

That sort of confirms my suspicion.  Six speeds wouldn’t do it for me.  I want range and smallish steps which is why all my bikes are 3x.  1x doesn’t interest me, 2x I hate.  In the end I can play with my BF gearing just as much as any of my other bikes and so it can always sub in.  For me, it is that versatility that is most important, while for Joe, it seems foldability is more important.  The joys of having choices!

Bill S

I can get this guy down into the teens:

[lconley]

I have ridden my seven speed Bike Friday Pocket Metro on rides as long as a two day Double Century (TOSRV). Here it is on Ascension Island - my only bike to have been ridden south of the equator.

I have planned on converting to the Shimano Altus rear derailleur as it keeps the chain further from the ground. 

Laing

 

[Joe Bernard]

"...while for Joe, it seems foldability is more important."

Yes, and I started at the OP wanting a travel bike he could occasionally toss (two of them) into a dinghy. That sounds like "compact and easy to fold" to me, but everyone has their own tolerance of how big and complex a fold can be. After owning a dozen (at least) different folders my tolerance is smallest/easiest!

[Jay Lonner]

Thanks for taking the time to do this and report back. I love the picture of the Brompton, BF, and Atlantis lined up next to one another!

I'm increasingly leaning toward BF as being the best all-around compromise for my needs. The quick fold option seems just fine for throwing in the back of a car or stowing belowdecks on a boat cruise. The more extensive breakdown is workable for infrequent overseas travel.

Your friend's bikes are tempting, but over the years I've spent a lot of money trying to save a buck buying used gear. When I factor in the costs of retrofitting my preferred components/gearing I suspect that I'll be better off just ordering new. Part of this has to do with how custom the bikes truly are though - on their ordering page BF gives the impression that their frames are custom built to your unique dimensions and specifications. Now if their idea of custom sizing is using an off-the-rack frame and swapping in seatposts and stems to suit then I may have to revisit this idea. Kent, perhaps you could weigh in here?

I find myself with a free week of vacation this August due to other plans falling through thanks to Covid. I am thinking of setting up an appointment and driving to Eugene for a personalized consultation and fitting. Good idea or overkill do you think? I just noticed that BF is offering a 20% discount for frames delivered this fall, so if I can get in on that I may just go for it.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

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[Drw]

I keep hoping brompton is gonna get a model out that capitalizes on the gravel wave before it dies down. The brompton fold is pretty amazing. I feel like it wouldn’t be super hard to get us more tire clearance or to release a 20” model. Wishful thinking.

[Joe Bernard]

They did a cosmetic attempt recently with a sand/orange color scheme, a nifty front bag and spares you can take along on your big Brompton expedition, but it was the same 6-speed M or H model. It looked cool! 👍

[Kent Peterson -- Eugene, Oregon]

The frames themselves are sized. The length of the maintube, seatmast, and stem riser are all custom specified. Things like Rohloff dropouts and special cable guides and braze-ons can be specified as well.

These steps involve real conversations with real people, not just filling out a form on a website. Especially now with global disruptions to the supply chains & various businesses being temporarily (and in some cases permanently) closed, actual conversations are needed to accurately figure out what can and can't be done and in what time frame.

If you want a Rivendell or a Bike Friday or any other bike with any degree of customization, call up and talk to a human.

[Abcyclehank]

Jay,

There are two really nice slightly used NWT Bike Friday’s with Rohloff hubs (2 previous European Tours). One large one Small, designed for 6’2” male rider and a 5’3” female rider.

Possibly the seller could give your relevant info about your travel desires as well.

Could Buy both Now for $5000 plus $80 shipping each.
Almost $10000 of bikes with most of the modifications you would want.

I agree frequently making modifications can eat up the cost difference from going new but in this case either your new bikes will depreciate significantly for you or you could essentially try these with little additional depreciation.

If you each are within 2-4 inches of the original owners I would believe you could dial these in based on my experience getting a Bike Friday modified easily for me at 6’7”.

Just a option. I would offer the seller $4000 for both and you might have 2 bikes for the price of less than one 👍.

Sincerely,
Ryan Hankinson
West Michigan

[Jay Lonner]

Ryan, thanks for the heads up - not sure what bikes you’re referring to though. Are these on eBay or Craigslist or ...?

Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA

Sent from my Atari 400

> On Jun 22, 2020, at 11:41 AM, 'Abcyclehank' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Jay,

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[alan lavine]

I have a Dahon Tournado, bought off CL locally. It’s the only one I’ve ever seen, clearly made by Richey. It’s a very comfortable real, regular bike that gets frequent use around town. Just so happens you can take the frame apart....I’ve traveled with it 3-4 times and never paid for oversized or bike fees (what’s in it? Bike parts for display).
I would buy a Breakaway in a heartbeat if something happened to this one.
Does anyone have any more information about this Dahon?
Thanks
Alan nyc

[Steven Sweedler]

Jay, they are on ebay, Steve

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[eddietheflay]

Dahon Tournado info:

https://www.adventurecycling.org/sites/default/assets/resources/200806_Cyclesense_Schubert.pdf

[eddietheflay]

or Dahon Allegro:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/dahon-allegro-breakaway-folding-bike-194833770

[Eric Norris]

This bike has the same problem that my Dahon Speedhound had: It’s too big when folded to count as checked baggage. 

Southwest Airlines (and I think most airlines have similar policies) counts anything larger than 62 inches when height, width and length are combined *or* more than 50 pounds as “oversize” or “overweight” and therefore subject to fees. This particular bike would be 77 inches (folded size 14 x 27 x 36 = 77) and would be charged the same as a full-sized non-folding bike in a full-sized box. 

The only advantage, I guess, is that the Allegro would be easier to handle between airport and ground transport. Other than that, you’re still going to pay a lot to take this on an airplane—$150 to $200 per trip. That adds up.

My Brompton, by the way, goes into a hard case that’s 25 x 25 x 12 (total of 62 inches, just at the limit) and weights 48 pounds with the bike, saddle bag, and a floor pump. Southwest just puts it on the plane with no argument and no fee.

If I’m doing a very long ride at my destination (like a brevet or PBP), I will bring a full-sized bike and pay the fee. If I’m just riding for fun, I bring the Brompton.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[Mark Roland]

What is this "Just riding for fun" you refer to? Blasphemy. (Just ride;^)

On Monday, June 22, 2020 at 7:44:38 PM UTC-4, Eric Norris wrote: If I’m doing a very long ride at my destination (like a brevet or PBP), I will bring a full-sized bike and pay the fee. If I’m just riding for fun, I bring the Brompton.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

On Jun 22, 2020, at 3:25 PM, eddietheflay <eddiet...@gmail.com> wrote:

or Dahon Allegro:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/dahon-allegro-breakaway-folding-bike-194833770

On Thursday, June 18, 2020 at 4:41:28 PM UTC-7, Jay Lonner wrote:

I'm interested in building up travel bikes for my wife and me. Our intended use is credit card touring in continental Europe and the British Isles. We also have a developing interest in cruising the Salish Sea, so I'd like something small enough to store belowdecks out of the corrosive marine environment, and that would be easy to get ashore via dinghy.

It seems that there are many ways to proceed, ranging from S&S couplers to 20" wheel designs like Bike Friday to rinko. All have their proponents and detractors. My priorities are comfort, ease of assembly/disassembly, avoidance of proprietary/specialized parts, and the ability to fit racks, fenders, and lights. I prefer plodding utilitarian considerations to zippy performance.

While our daily rides embrace Riv-approved technologies such as rim brakes and friction shifting, I am open to other options for these proposed travel bikes. When we're away from home I'm really looking for something bombproof. Rear derailleurs strike me as a particular vulnerability, especially on bikes with 20" wheels. At the moment I'm leaning towards designs that utilize a Rohloff hub.

Anyway, so many choices, so many tradeoffs - I'm stuck! What would you do within the design constraints outlined above, if budget weren't really a consideration? (That's one of the nice things about bikes - even an extravagant build is super affordable compared to boats.)

Help me RBW collective, you're my only hope!

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

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[Jay Lonner]

Well I’ve traded a few emails with a rep from BF and he is in the process of generating a quote. Here’s what I told him:

- Dropouts, brazeons, cable guides etc. for disc brakes, linear pull brakes, derailleurs, and Rohloff rear hubs. Maximum Frankenbike flexibility basically, to allow for experimentation. 

- Cliffhanger rims and the fattest tires that can handle fenders. Big Apples 406x60 would be ideal. SON28 front hubs and LX or XT rear hubs. 36 spokes front and rear. 

- 110/74 triple cranks, Sugino or Silver, 170mm. 9 speed cassette. Short cage rear derailleur if possible, for ground clearance. A range of 15-90 gear inches. 

- Paul Klamper brakes, Paul levers, Silver2 shifters. Jones loop h-bars. (I’m still torn on the brakes - I’m biased in favor of rim brakes but he’s making a good case for discs, and I guess I am curious to try them out.)

- Chris King headsets, UN72 bottom brackets. 

- Rear racks equipped, front decaleur compatible. 

- Electric assist for my wife. 

So that’s my first stab at a potential build, but I’d welcome feedback from the list. Any glaring problems or missed opportunities that I should be thinking about? I’ve never ordered a custom bike before - it’s kind of fun to consider the possibilities...

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

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On Jun 23, 2020, at 5:51 AM, Mark Roland <absolut...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Bill Schairer]

Two bikes?  I’m having trouble picturing those tires.  Mine are 32mm and I have to let some air out to get them in the suitcase.  I’m wondering if you would have to remove the tires to fit the suitcase, or are you not going for a suitcase?  Looks like great build(s)!  Those should be able to most anything at all.

Bill S

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[Ian A]

Jay,

I would urge you to take a look at the Moulton options. The Moulton SST uses discs and is optimised for IGH. The frame separates into two, so not a folder. The link shows UK prices which include VAT, so outside EU price the 20% VAT is deducted. The UK £ is a bargain right now which makes a lot of UK homegrown products a bargain.

BF also excellent and a US company. The Moulton is just a different option and a favourite among long distance riders (travelling or not).

https://www.traditionalcycleshop.co.uk/moulton-bicycles/moulton-sst-11

IanA Alberta Canada

[Eric Daume]

With the Bike Fridays now, they have two folding options: the regular option has the main hinge rear of the bottom bracket, so the crank is fixed to the main frame. The forward hinge (I think that's the name) puts the hinge forward of the bottom bracket, so the whole drivetrain folds as a unit. This should really reduce the instances where the chain drops off the front ring while folding (which is almost always on my rear hinged Crusoe), at the expense of a slightly bigger packed size.

If you're getting Rohloff compatibility, it might default to forward hinge, but I would want to get this regardless.

What's strange is I don't see where this is on the website, but their site isn't the best.

You can also choose a removable seat mast assembly, or one that folds forward. Mine is removable, along with the stem, so it's pretty much a collection of loose parts when I fold it. I would recommend the folding seat mast.

They also have a light frame option on the NWT, for riders up to 190 pounds. I think this would end up very similar to my Crusoe, which is indeed a very lively bike.

Eric

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[Drw]

Jay,
Are you thinking NWT or diamond llama?

[Jay Lonner]

Diamond Llama.

Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA

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> On Jun 23, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Drw <drewbe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Jay,

> Are you thinking NWT or diamond llama?
>

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[Jay Lonner]

The Moultons are lovely bikes but I do like the quick fold option offered by BF. I also like that BF is located just down I5 from me - I’m happy to support the regional economy, especially when it comes to cycling infrastructure. I also imagine that being in the same time zone and customs regime will greatly ease any customer service and/or warranty issues.

Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA

Sent from my Atari 400

> On Jun 23, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Drw <drewbe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> Jay,

> Are you thinking NWT or diamond llama?
>

[Kent Peterson -- Eugene, Oregon]

Jones loop h-bars are lovely and a total bitch to pack in the suitcase. If you're not suitcase packing, don't worry about it.

If you're getting e-assist on your wife's bike, there won't be a SON hub on it. The e-assist motor is in the front wheel.

I tend do favor quick folding and using the soft bag (with cardboard padding if If I'm taking the bike on Amtrak or something). The soft bags are bigger and much easier to pack into than the Samsonite, which rewards you if you've spent years playing Tetris or solving jigsaw puzzles.

Kent Peterson

Eugene, OR USA

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 11:52:22 AM UTC-7, Jay Lonner wrote:

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[Drw]

Well this thread now has me going to check out a bike Friday llama (not diamond) off Craigslist tomorrow. I think it’s maybe a 2014. Is there anything in particular I should be looking at/for?

[Lyman Labry]

I own a 2013 Llama.  It’s been an amazing versatile bike for me.  On and off road touring and bike camping. 

Lyman in Austin

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 7:43 PM Drw <drewbe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well this thread now has me going to check out a bike Friday llama (not diamond) off Craigslist tomorrow. I think it’s maybe a 2014. Is there anything in particular I should be looking at/for?

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[Jay Lonner]

So I'm now well on my way to ordering up some Bikes Friday and thought I'd report back on what I've learned. While the email correspondence has been prompt and professional, I'd like to emphasize Kent's point that interacting with an actual human being in real time is invaluable. I had the first of what I'm sure will prove to be several phone calls with a BF rep today (who btw was totally conversant with Grant and all things Riv) and here are some interesting things that I've learned:

- For any sort of serious touring the options boil down to the New World Tourist or the Diamond Llama.

- The Diamond Llama offers three benefits. 1) Can accommodate heavier riders 2) Can handle tires up to 2.1" regardless of brakes (NWT limited to 1.75" with rim brakes), 3) Aesthetics.

- The Diamond Llama cannot accommodate belt drives, while the NWT can.

- The Diamond Llama does not allow for a folding configuration where the drivetrain remains in one unit, creating the potential for the chain falling off during folding.

In light of the above I'm leaning strongly toward the NWT.

More to come as the conversation advances. Many thanks to those who have weighed in.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 8:42:25 AM UTC-7, Tirebiter ATX wrote:

I own a 2013 Llama.  It’s been an amazing versatile bike for me.  On and off road touring and bike camping. 

Lyman in Austin

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 7:43 PM Drw <drewbe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well this thread now has me going to check out a bike Friday llama (not diamond) off Craigslist tomorrow. I think it’s maybe a 2014. Is there anything in particular I should be looking at/for?

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[Nick Payne]

When I was travelling a lot for work about 20 years ago, I bought myself a 2nd hand Air Friday, and took it on a large number of business trips. It came with it's own medium size hard shell suitcase into which it packed for transport. Unpacking and assembling it from the suitcase took 10-15 minutes, packing about five minutes longer.

It rode pretty much like a normal bike - the longest ride I can remember taking it on was about 160km from Lyon to Aix-Les-Bains (caught the train back to Lyon). With the saddle cantilevered at the end of a titanium suspension beam, the ride was actually more comfortable than on a standard frame, in spite of the small wheels and skinny tyres, and I never really noticed any bounce from sitting at the end of the beam. As well as complete disassembly, it also had a pivot at the bottom bracket that allowed the frame to fold in half in about 30 seconds to get it into a car boot.

Nick