Roadini fendering at 32mm?

[Matt D]

My 61 Roadini is set up with 17mm Alexrims G6000 rims, Panaracer Gravelking 32c tires (which run true to size), and Tektro R539 brakes. I'm headed to merrie olde England in June with bicycle in tow and I'd like to prepare for the rain that seems to go along with the island but I'm not sure I can fit them.

My research has only turned up this - Paul Gong on a RBWOB facebook group says:

"I have a Roadeo which has the same designed-in clearances. I can just fit Jack Browns and SKS P45 Longboards with careful installation. This was a combo that Rivendell often featured on their website and Instagram. I'm pretty certain metal fenders like VO and Honjo wouldn't fit with Jack Browns. Their design and hardware require more clearance than Longboards."

Jack Browns, of course, being 33.3mm. That makes me suspect that Rivendell's limit of 28 with fenders might be a little conservative. I don't intend to ride many loose surfaces or gravel so I'm not all too worried about things getting caught under it. Is anyone else running fenders above 28mm on their Roadini or Roadeo and if so, what do you suggest I use?

[Paul G]

Rivendell used to market their Roadeos with Jack Browns and SKS P45s (Chromoplastics or Longboards) all the time. Perhaps they are no longer comfortable with that combination and limit the use of fenders with 28mm wide tires to protect themselves if a customer had a crash because something got caught in the front fender and flipped the bike.

I've been running the combo for going on four years with no problems other than a leaf getting caught in the front fender on occasion. But I'm careful to avoid going over sticks and such. And they must be installed carefully with attention to maximizing the available clearance. That means cramming the fender as high as possible under the brake calipers. By the way, this renders the wide opening of the R539 brakes useless as the fenders get in the way when opening them. I have to let almost all the air out to remove a wheel past the calipers.

Remember that the SKS fenders have more clearance potential than metal fenders. Honjos or similar styles may allow a 30mm at the most. Also, different people have differing levels of what their comfortable with regarding fender/tire clearance.

[Paul G]

Check out the Roadeo that Rivendell sent to Bicycling Magazine to testing. Jack Brown Greens and SKS Longboard fenders.

[lconley]

The idea that metal fenders have less clearance than SKS is false. You can buy wider metal fenders than you can plastic. You can press/pound a recess into metal fenders at the fork crown, front brake area to increase the overall clearance in other areas. Some Honjo fenders can be had pre-clearanced for this purpose. You cannot put a recess in the SKS plastic fenders without cutting. If you want to maximize clearance, you can always cut the fenders (plastic or metal) at the fork crown, front brake area, this cures the open brake - fender interference issue. The forward part of the fender can be held in place with a modified "diving board" rack mount, fender stay, rack or some combination thereof. Rivendell will even do this for you.

Laing

Cocoa, FL

[Ian A]

The SKS do come with breakaway mounts for the front fender stays, which are good to have when there is limited clearance.

IanA

[Bill Lindsay]

The idea that metal fenders have less clearance than SKS generally stems from the fact that most metal fenders have bulky hardware that you run inside the fender to attach the stays.  SKS fenders have that flat plate riveted to the fender, so there's almost nothing inside the fender in the way of hardware.  In virtually all cases, the stay is held in place by a daruma bolt.  There's a nut inside at least.  Some people run a washer inside as well.  Some run the daruma cups inside.  The stack up of that standard hardware is at least 4mm tall.  In my experience Velo Orange daruma bolts are over-long, so if you don't scrub off the excess, that stack up could be taller.  

Additionally, the rolled edge of most metal fenders can be another issue, particularly through the fork crown.  That edge in a SKS fender is much flatter.  People like Jan recommend a 10mm gap (or more) from the fender surface to the tire, everywhere.  Bulky hardware eats into that 10mm in spots.  The rolled edge may drop that 10mm to 7mm, but that's OK.  

People who don't actually care about fender clearance and instead want to find the larger possible tire they can run with fenders with no rubbing, generally find that combination with plastic fenders.  I don't think I've ever heard a mechanic claim they could make room for fatter tires by swapping from plastic fenders to metal.  

On my 57cm Leo Roadini, I run 28mm tires when the bike has metal fenders on it.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[lconley]

I mount my own fenders. I can put a metal fender on any of my bikes and equal or better the clearance of a plastic fender. You can use crimp on mounts anywhere on a metal fender - you can even cut off the crimp and rivet them to the outside of the fender and presto! - more clearance than a plastic. Through bolts are NOT required. 

I rode plastic fenders in the 70s and 80s. I prefer metal, but I have a lot of tools and have been collecting fender hardware for years and I have been working on bikes for 50 years. If you prefer to have plastic fenders good for you, but don't spread falsehoods about metal fenders.

Laing

Cocoa, FL

[LBleriot]

I think 28mm tires is the widest you're gonna be able to safely run on the Roadini.  I tried a couple of plastic and metal fenders and found that with Soma Vitesse tires Handsome's metal fenders gave me the most clearance, but the difference between metal and plastic was negligible; it's all tight.

On Monday, May 13, 2019 at 9:24:28 PM UTC-4, Matt D wrote:

[Jeremy Till]

I don't think Bill is spreading falsehoods about metal fenders. He is not saying that plastic fenders absolutely have more clearance than metal fenders. I think that he is saying in the situation of trying to cram as large a tire as possible and a fender into a given frame/brake combination, and considering the stock hardware that comes with most fenders (which, on metal fenders, often involves darumas or bolts with nuts on the inside of the fender), it may be easier to achieve the desired result with the current SKS fenders than the current commonly available metal fenders. 

I certainly agree that with metal fenders, especially those that aren't pre-drilled for hardware, are much more adaptable in terms of how you mount them. If you have access to riveting tools you can rivet L-brackets to them. You can bolt them to dedicated mounts on the frame and racks (assuming your frame and racks were built with them) with button head bolts. My wife's bike (Heron Touring) has some Honjo fenders that came to me with special plates to attach the fender stays rather than darumas, and those definitely take up relatively little space on the inside of the fender (I see them now on the SimWorks website, listed as the "Stay Band Set": https://sim.works/collections/small-parts-simworks-by-honjo). But all of this is a lot more customization and effort when compared to what it takes to install a pair of SKS fenders.  

I am in a similar situation to the OP: my Rambouillet (an older Rivendell road bike that also used 47-57mm reach brakes) came with 28mm tires and hammered Honjo fenders. The fenders are the narrowest Honjos I've seen but the daruma bolts at the fork crown and stay mounts are definitely the limiting factor. I could cut down threaded ends of the darumas and maybe use thinner nuts, but I'd still probably be hesitant to run anything much wider than 28mm. I've thought about switching the fenders out for some 45mm longboards I have and seeing if I could run 32-33mm tires. At the same time, my primary motivation for going to larger tires is riding gravel and dirt, so maybe it's better to just ditch the fenders entirely and run tires in the 35mm range. I live in California and rain isn't a year-round phenomenon here.  

-Jeremy Till

Sacramento, CA

[Bill Lindsay]

It's true that when you buy metal fenders, you are free to throw away the existing hardware and make your own.  Laing, if you are willing to educate the group how to make replacement mounting hardware to exceed the clearance of SKS fenders, I bet a lot of folks would be grateful for the info.

For starters, I don't know what you are talking about when you say "crimp on mounts".  I know what a crimp is, but I don't know what a crimp on mount is in the context of metal fender setup.  I also have a lot of tools but I've only been working on biked for 40 years, so I'm still learning.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, Ca

On Tuesday, May 14, 2019 at 11:01:07 AM UTC-7, lconley wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

I expect he means one of these. I've used on for the VO hammered rear on my 2003 Road -- since I stripped the brake bridge fender threading.

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 5:21 PM Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

[Patrick Moore]

I forgot to add that this device does not improve clearance over bolting the fender directly to the brake bridge. It's not bad, but not as good as a direct bolt.

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Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique

[John G.]

If anyone has pics and tips for fendering a Roadeo with 32mm tires, please send ‘em my way. Oh, but wait, I just remembered that 28 is the new 32!

[Matt D]

Quick word on how cool it is to have this community - mention a facebook post from someone who fendered a 33mm Roadeo and then get advice from the guy himself. You don't get this sort of thing with Trek or Specialized (of course) or even other smaller frame manufacturers. Thanks, guys!

Yes, so it does seem like it's a sketchy fit but Longboards are the best bet (excluding futzing with metal hardware) because of something or other about how they're mounted. Ours is not to question why, I suppose. Are there by any chance any less-than-full-coverage fenders that won't look too cheap and nasty to leave on? Ass Savers and things like that seem like a decent solution but I think they might end up being either too cheaply made or techno-futuristic to be appropriate for regular use.

Hey Patrick - Христос воскресе!

[Collin A]

You could try some flat honjo fenders, but vertical clearance with mounting bolts may still be a problem as others have noted: https://sim.works/collections/fenders-simworks-by-honjo/products/flat42

You could also try these as an alternate, but they won't do much to protect the drivetrain (should protect your back side and headset though):

https://ass-savers.com/products/fendor-bendor-big-detour

https://ass-savers.com/products/mudder-mini-detour

[sameness]

Any interest in a Reacharound?

Jeff "Risky Click" Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

[Patrick Moore]

Does the Roadeo have the same tire/fender clearance as the blue Rambouillets? If so, I got 32-actual/35-labeled tires (Kojaks) under SKS fenders without cutting things too fine. I daresay the right-sized Honjos or Berthouds or VO metals would have worked as well.

[Paul G]

Lots of good ideas here and from others. Yes, I was assuming stock supplied hardware but obviously one does not have to use it. When using the stock mounting hardware on some of the traditionally styled metal fenders, the hardware itself is what can limit vertical clearance. Some modern metal fender designs do seem to encroach upon the tire less.

Since the OP is referring to the Roadini, we assume a fender width limit of about 45mm. The rolled edges of popular traditionally styled metal fenders, combined with limited vertical clearance due to 57 mm reach caliper brakes, can limit the width of the tire more than an SKS P45 Longboard. I have VO 45mm fenders on another bike. I haven't tried mounting them on the Roadeo, but eyeballing them leads me to my conclusions. Maybe one day, I'll give it a go just to see what I can get away with tire-wise. And if Iconley/Laing is willing to share some more tricks, maybe we'll be surprised at what's achievable.

Paul

On Tuesday, May 14, 2019 at 6:20:03 AM UTC-7, lconley wrote:

[ted]

The berthoud fender stays are very nice. They bolt directly to the fender and you can put the small button head end on the inside. I’ve replaced the stock stays on longboards with berthoud ones and I think it gives a stiffer result as well as eliminating the internal hardware that some folks claim sends water from inside the fender onto your feet. If I ever try metal fenders I’ll probably want to use berthoud stays regardless of who makes the fenders.

[Paul G]

I'd say it's probably very similar since Grant likes to maximize clearance for whatever (caliper) brake reach is being spec'ed. And I suppose it also depends on how much tolerance the respective builders have. 

The Roadeo's big problem is at the chainstay bridge area. The bridge is a tiny thing that is actually part of the bottom bracket shell and the chainstays themselves are quite beefy and thick at this juncture. The chainstays have sizeable dents on the insides to allow the fattest tire possible to pass through but leaves little room for a fender without modification. A fairly long spacer is required for the fender to attach to the chainstay bridge while maintaining a good fender line.

[lconley]

Exactly. Put the panhead bolt head or hex button head inside the fender and the nut on the outside. If you have daruma style stays, buy a $5 L-bracket from VO (or the sliding crimp fitting that comes standard with most metal fenders and some plastic fenders, crimp it to the fender or cut it up to make your own L-bracket)  - mount one side to the fender and the other to the daruma bolt (play with the orientation for best appearance. Can also use pop rivets ($4 with coupon for rivet gun, $4.80 for 500 rivets with coupon at Harbor Freight) to attach to fender for maximum clearance (use the aluminum rivets and pound or press them flat). You can also get aluminum angle at Lowes or Home Depot and make really nice aluminum L-brackets with a hacksaw, file and drill. If you have a bench grinder, it goes quicker. With a rat tail file, you can make a squiggly point an the bracket to match your lugs. Boulder Bike used to sell nice L-brackets (may have been Berthouds) , they still have some beautiful diamond shaped fender reinforcements.

The most difficult thing that I am putting fenders on is a Hubbuhubbuh with 2.3 tires and linear brakes. The center stays at the rear have very little side clearance and the linear brake cables are just above the tires. The fenders will need to be cut or narrowed at the center stays and probably cut (or possibly slotted) at the brake cables. Honjo H95s (I believe the SimWorks are the same) are plenty wide enough. They are wide and use two darumas - you just put the darumas to the outside of each side of the fender to avoid the center of the tire, or I could use two L-brackets.

I am also putting H95s on my Bombadil - it has so much clearance to the 57 mm G-Ones that nothing special needs to be done.

Laing

Cocoa, FL

On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 1:21:03 PM UTC-4, ted wrote:

[M G]

The planet bike metal 65mm fenders are a perfect fit on the hubbuhhubbuh tandem.

[M G]

[Laing Conley]

Too narrow for 60mm tires.

 

 

Laing Conley 

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[Eamon Nordquist]

I am currently running a pair of R539 brakes on my '83 Trek, and at least in the front, they are the limiting factor in fender/tire clearance. Dia Compe 610's offer several millimeters of additional clearance over the 539's. I think if you want maximize clearance with that kind of brake reach, you need to go to centerpulls (or have canti posts brazed on).

I have had a front fender accordion on me before, so I like conservative clearance with fenders. Others may be more comfortable pushing the limits.

Eamon

Seattle

[Bill Lindsay]

Laing described ways to avoid having bulky hardware inside the fender at the places the fender attaches to the rear brake bridge and fork crown.  In that description, he repeatedly used the word "stays".  

I think we're misunderstanding each other.  I wasn't talking about clearance at bridges.  I was talking about fender stay hardware.  I think 'fender stays' are an actual thing.  These are fender stays:

Fender stays attach to the fender at one end and near the rear drop out or fork tip on the other end.  The typical hardware that is used to attach fender stays to the metal fender is one or two daruma bolts.  The daruma bolts that come with Honjo, Velo Orange, and Berthoud metal fenders have a fairly tall height inside the fender.  Depending on the vendor and the setup the internal daruma hardware will be 4mm to 8mm tall, inside the fender.  Often, when I correctly install metal fenders with correct equal spacing to the tire all around, the place most likely to rub the tire will be the fender stay hardware touching the tire in this area.  One could re-shape the fender to not have proper clearance at the fender stays, but that can cause other problems: it looks bad, you have more front TCO, and you increase the risk of sucking a stick into a big gap that decreases as the wheel rolls.  The "falsehood" I was spreading was just a statement of fact: most metal fenders come with round fender stays.  Most metal fenders come with daruma bolts to attach the stays to the fender.  Unmodified daruma bolts intrude on the interior space of the fender at the fender stays.  

Plastic fenders have a flat piece of metal pop-riveted to the fender, protruding only 1mm or 2mm into the interior of the fender.  This area is where I think plastic fenders always have more clearance.  If there is a good solution for attaching fender stays to metal fenders with no interior hardware I would be interested to learn about that hardware.  I imagine I could design and fashion a fender stay mounting object that replaces darumas that has this feature, but if there is already a part or an established method to solve this area, I'd be happy to learn about it.  

Possibly the easiest method would be to run Berthoud brand fender stays.  Those are typically squished flat at the point that they attach to the metal fender and drilled for bolts.  Run a pan head inside the fender and a nut outside.  That solves the interior hardware problem, you just have to buy extra stays (or always buy Berthoud fenders).  It's only money.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Laing Conley]

I was talking about the stays. The L bracket attaches to the fender with the thick hardware facing out, thin button head or rivet head inside the fender. The daruma is rotated 90 degrees on the stay and goes through the L bracket instead of the fender – the daruma never touches the fender. The daruma is parallel to the fender, not perpendicular.

 

Laing

 

 

 

 

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Bill Lindsay
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 10:12 AM
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [RBW] Re: Roadini fendering at 32mm?

 

Laing described ways to avoid having bulky hardware inside the fender at the places the fender attaches to the rear brake bridge and fork crown.  In that description, he repeatedly used the word "stays".  

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[Paul G]

Fascinating. A picture of this setup would be great if you have one, Laing.

Paul

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[Laing Conley]

I will take some this weekend.

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