Brooks vs Berthoud Saddle Setback

[Nate in Oakland]

Hey all! I just converted my Atlantis to drops and now I’m finding that I can’t get my trusty B17 far enough back for comfort. I’ve been lusting after/looking for an excuse to buy a Berthoud saddle for a while, and now I’m wondering if one would fix my setback issue. Someone out there must have experience with both!

Btw, I know I could get a whacky looking seat post like the one in the Blahg, but would rather not!

Thanks,
Nate

[Craig Montgomery]

The answer is yes I have experience with both and yes you can get further back (it's why I converted) on the Berthoud Aspin compared to the B17 and yes I just happen to have a black Aspin for sale in excellent condition for $100 shipped. What else do you want to know? 

Craig in Tucson

[Nate in Oakland]

What a dream!!! I'm vegan, so I try not to buy new leather saddles but I wasn't having any luck on Ebay.  My preferred color too!  I'll DM you.

Nate

[John Hawrylak]

Craig

Do you how much further back the spin goes than the B17?

I measured the distance in the rails available for travel in a B17 and a VO Model 3 and got

VO Mod 3,   8.4cm of total distance

B17,             6.4cm total distance

or the VO had 2.0cm more travel.  Of course the post clamp width affects the actual distance the saddle can move.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Craig Montgomery]

Well John, this is what my butt knows...Brooks have a metal based cantle which gives the saddle a concave shape. With a steep seat tube angle that cantel moves forward and I sit on it like it was an arched 2x4. With a shallow seat tube angle it moves back and my backside sits forward of that cantle and it's quite comfortable. I use Brooks on the bikes with 72 degree and less STA's. With the Berthoud Aspin that cantle plate isn't there. The saddle rises up and then curves over like a cresting wave. You can slide you derriere back without coming against an upturned cantle, and then slide back to ride with the inside of your thighs on a smooth rounded shape. For me that's better on 73+ degree STA's. That's about as well as I can explain it. I use a Brooks on my Jack Taylor Sports with has a 74 degree STA. But with an SR MTE1000 adjustable seat post. 

Craig in Tucson

         '38 Bates with 70 degree STA-Comfy                          73 degree STA with an Aspin, Comfy                              Same bike with a Brooks and MTE1000: 71 STA. Comfy.

[John Phillips]

  First, which seat post do you have on there now?

  If you already like your saddle, I would suggest trying a seat post with more set back, such as the lugged Nitto S84 (4cm set back?). I have a Nitto S84 under my Berthoud saddle, set all the way back, on my Hunqapillar, with a 12cm Nitto NP stem and Albatross bars set at seat height up front. My hands gravitate to the forward sections of the bars, so I really like the set back on the S84 seat post. But I'm not one to like sitting too upright either.

John

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 9:48:08 AM UTC-7, Nate in Oakland wrote:

[Drurad (Sacramento)]

And here's what Craig's saddle will look like on your bike.  Highly recommend.  Plenty of setback for me.   

-Andrew

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 3:15:15 PM UTC-7, Craig Montgomery wrote:

[Nate in Oakland]

Hi John,
I currently have the S83 (26.8) on my Atlantis. I actually own a beautifully lugged S84, but that lives on my Sam since it is a 27.2 and won’t fit in my Atlantis’ seat tube. That’s probably why I don’t have this issue with my Sam on drop bars!

Andrew,
Gorgeous! Can’t wait to get Craig’s saddle!

Nate

[John Hawrylak]

Andrew

Just for reference, do you know the STA of your Atlantis or the frame size (looks to be 53cm) and year.  Like to know if it <72°.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Bill Schairer]

I’ve never paid any attention to STA but all the discussions I’ve seen of it has me curious. I just found this video on an angle finder app for smart phones - https://youtu.be/zNuGgBwirQ4

I think I’ll have to check it out.

Bill S

[John Hawrylak]

Bill

I think those phone apps angle finders are pretty good.  I would just check using a 2' bubble level.

Place the level on a table and shim the level to get the bubble centered.  Then place the phone on it to see if it reads 0.0°.  I not it has a small offset you can account for.  You could also check it with a square on the level and it should read 90° or a 30-60 right drafting triangle on the level.

I zero my Wixely 3000 digitial angle finder on a shimmed level.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Craig Montgomery]

This whole angle app thing is really great. Never knew it existed. Thanks for the tip John. I'm about to become an angle maniac. 

Craig in Tucson

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[John Hawrylak]

Craig

Just remember to shim the level to center the bubble. 

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 5:35:44 PM UTC-4, Craig Montgomery wrote:

This whole angle app thing is really great. Never knew it existed. Thanks for the tip John. I'm about to become an angle maniac. 

Craig in Tucson

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 8:47 AM 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Bill

I think those phone apps angle finders are pretty good.  I would just check using a 2' bubble level.

Place the level on a table and shim the level to get the bubble centered.  Then place the phone on it to see if it reads 0.0°.  I not it has a small offset you can account for.  You could also check it with a square on the level and it should read 90° or a 30-60 right drafting triangle on the level.

I zero my Wixely 3000 digitial angle finder on a shimmed level.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 8:51:46 AM UTC-4, Bill Schairer wrote:

I’ve never paid any attention to STA but all the discussions I’ve seen of it has me curious.  I just found this video on an angle finder app for smart phones - https://youtu.be/zNuGgBwirQ4

I think I’ll have to check it out.

Bill S

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[Nate in Oakland]

Well, I got the saddle super fast (thanks Craig!) and took if for a 4-5 hour ride with plenty of climbing and some mixed terrain.

Initial thoughts:

-The saddle is wayy stiffer that my B17.  Before putting it on the bike, I had some serious doubts about the comfort level.

-I measured the distance from my quill bolt to the furthest back usable area on both saddles (with same saddle height/angle).  It turns out that the two saddles have exactly the same measurement!  Maybe the B17 gets a little further back. 

On the ride:

-Sit bones really sit on top of this saddle rather than sink into it.  In the more upright positions, this is definitely less comfortable than the B17 (at first).

-In drop position, I actually am able to scoot further back and am much more comfortable than the B17.  The whole point of this build was a super comfortable drop position, so mission accomplished!  I think that my sitbone indentations were so strong in the B17 that I had to slide forward into them and couldn't really get to the furthest back position.  

-The firmness/skinniness of the Berthoud really leaves the legs feeling more open and less rubbed (didn't even know this was an issue before).

-As the ride progressed and the saddle/butt relationship was formed, all positions became comfortable.

I would not use this saddle on an upright bike.  Next tour, chocos or boscos go back on along side with the b17.  For day rides with lots of drop position time, really great.  Posting some pics of the setup from yesterdays ride.

Nate

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 9:48:08 AM UTC-7, Nate in Oakland wrote:

[John Phillips]

Hi Nate,

    Gotcha. My first thought was that I like my Berthoud saddle, but it wouldn't have given me enough room to move back without the S84 seat post.

If you need still more setback with the Berthoud, maybe look into the IRD Wayback Seatpost? Comes in diameters 26.8mm, 27.0mm & 27.2mm.

https://www.interlocracing.com/shop/product/ird-seatpost-wayback-2418?search=seatpost

Good luck!

John

[Nate in Oakland]

Hey John,

Thanks for the link.  Despite what the numbers say, I'm actually really happy with the Berthoud in the current setup.  If I change my mind, I'll probably buy the IRD part from Riv when they stock it.

Nate