Back In The Riv Saddle With A '98 Custom Starck-Riv

[Paul Brodek]

Took a little while, but I finally landed Ray Foss' '98 Custom Starck-Riv Road frameset. Ray got it from the original owner, but with many other awesome mounts to choose from, Ray never managed to build it up. Doesn't look like Art M., the original owner, rode it much before selling it to Ray. I did manage to build it up, but haven't managed to ride it yet. Maybe tomorrow?

It's only my second Riv, the first was an even earlier '95 Waterford-Riv Road. Bought that one from Peter B. maybe 7-8yrs ago, sold it last year-ish. If I do the math, gaining 3yrs every Riv buy over an 8yr stretch, in about 64yrs I'll have myself a '21! I'm catching up!

I mulled over the build while reeling it in, decided on this first go-round to do a period-correct-ish Riv quasi-tribute, all silver components, nothing insanely current. The frame came with Silver dt shifters, so they had to stay. Very few silver-rimmed wheelsets under my roof, at least ones that are modern-enough to have a 130mm rear OLN. All I had was a clean set of Ultegra tri-color hubs on Mavic Reflex SUP. 'Sup? Then I found a decent amount of Dura-Ace 7x00-series silver stuff, so rder/brakes/cranks/stem are D-A. The top tube is a little on the long side for me, 60.5cm, so the D-A stem is only 90mm. Tried a D-A post, but there's not a lot of post showing, and the bottom of the flutes on the D-A post sat below the lugline, providing a possible water incursion route, so a cut-short Thomson Elite works for now. Been saving the green Brooks B-17 Champion standard for something, turns out it was this.

I wanted non-aero brake cable routing, but I'm no longer thrilled with those smaller vintage lever bodies. Then I remembered a pair of Campy C-Record dual-routing levers were....somewhere...and they turned up. Pairing them with the D-A 7800 dual-pivots is a little weird, I'm wishing the caliper spring tension was higher, but it oughta work OK.

It's geared for now with a 38/24 compact double, using a Peter White-sourced TA Zephyr K tripelizer ring, mounted on the inside position. 11-28t 8spd cassette in the rear, so I still get a decent low gear and can use the med-cage D-A rder. The Shimano CX-70 fder sits a little high over the outer ring, can't get it any lower without scraping the top of the chainstay, but it shifts fine in the stand. I didn't have a BBG bashguard small enough to use in the outer position, I'd have to raise the fder even higher for that, so there's a weird BBG spacer thingie there. Coulda just used track chainring bolts, but I guess I was looking for more silvery bling, and an unused outer chainring ledge just looks a little lonely.

The frame's built around 49mm-reach brakes, and the 33mm Soma Supple Vitesse SLs at about 30mm on the narrow Mavic rims are close to max. Pinch point is under the calipers, as it should be on a well-designed 49mm-reach frame, so wider would work OK, but taller would get too tight.

Having never shifted an 8spd cog range in friction mode before, I'm looking forward to a nice ride with a fair amount of cussing.

Flickr album here:

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmQTkD5A

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Brian Campbell]

Very nice!

[Andrew Letton]

Lovely build, Paul!

Same year and color as my Riv Road:  1998 Rivendell Road

1998 Rivendell Road Explore this photo album by letton on Flickr!

Enjoy the ride!

cheers,

Andrew

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[Joel]

Beautiful, enjoy. 

[Andy Beichler]

I love that color.  The bottom bracket looks low.  Had Grant started to use the 80mm of drop then or is it just the angle of the picture?

[RichS]

Riv Road bike day! What a great looking pair of classic Rivs. Paul, congratulations on your acquisition.

Best,

Rich in ATL

On Sunday, September 20, 2020 at 8:59:10 PM UTC-4 Paul Brodek wrote:

[True Golden]

That's a terrific looking vintage Riv Custom!

Good job on the pics with that white background.

Paul in Dallas 

who had a blue 1999 Riv Custom built new for me and wishes he had it back.

[Paul Brodek]

Thanks, all! I'm happy with how it turned out.

I was in such a rush to put it together that I forgot to measure the bb drop and the standover height. The bb drop does look large/low, I figured without even measuring that if I tried 650b wheels I'd be scraping pedals pretty easily, since the frame probably couldn't fit wider than 42-584 or so.

I really oughta get myself one of those Rene Herse tire width guagey thingies, if they've still got them.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Trevor Bradshaw]

Paul I might have your Riv. What color was it? Size?

[Peter Bridge]

On Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 9:12:30 AM UTC-7 foolis...@gmail.com wrote:

Paul I might have your Riv. What color was it? Size?

From my vague memory, kinda caramel maybe?  Maybe with an area that had been sanded on the down tube?  Can't remember the color of the head tube.  Unless PB2 repainted it.

Oh here we go, it's on Paul's flickr: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/26383479@N04/albums/72157637897698005 

~pb1   

[Paul Brodek]

Thanks for linking it, Peter. If Trevor has it now, it went from Peter to me to Trevor.

Peter asked me earlier offlist if the frame had been a little small for me, and looking at my notes on the frame dims I said probably not. But now looking at the built pix on flickr, yeah, definitely closer to "a little too little" for me.

All I've managed with the new Starck Riv so far is a coupla round-the-block sweeps, which it handled nicely. I detected slight notes of lemongrass, with a subtle smoky finish.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Paul Brodek]

Actually, come to think of it, if it was mine there's always the possibility there was an intermediary caretaker between me and Trevor.

I'm pretty sure the color was considered a Burnt Orange. Frame size was 58.5cm square c-c, def a bit lower than I like. There were some paint flaws down near the seat tube bottle bosses that were sanded away, visible in the naked frame photos.

I have nothing against simplicity, but I think I like the curlier head lugs on the '95 Road better than the simpler lines on the Starck.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Paul Brodek]

So I actually got a reasonable ride yesterday on this puppy. Evidence of late-night/rookie misses was the twisty/sliding saddle----undertightened binder bolt, and the handlebars rotating downward drastically on the first hard stop---undertensioned stem. The stem was a minor issue because it's a Dura-Ace stem, which requires a long/thin 6mm wrench to reach the short internal bolt. That leaves you with the short end of an L-wrench hanging out the back, which is very difficult to torque to spec. Fortunately I had a small 9-10mm wrench with one end closed, so I could use that for added torque.

Then I had a flat about 3min from home, too close to bother with a roadside fix, so I ignominiously walked it home despite having all the repair fixin's in my bag. The lightweight tube had punctured due to older hardened velox tape leaving too deep a scoop above the spoke ferrules, which I didn't discover till after the longish walk home, but that meant if I had repaired it on the road, I would have had to redo it when I got home anyway to replace the rim tape. I do remember during assembly thinking I should probably replace that rim tape, but when it's late and I'm tired I usually think that inner voice is stupid. Did the rear at home, in the stand, still oughta replace the front rim strip as well. Cleaned up some somewhat oxidized spoke nipples while I was at it.

Seat/handlebar slips and flat rear tire followed by a walk home. You know what? All in all it was still a very nice ride....

Riv rides good. Didn't particularly "feel fast," yet I made very good time. It corners faster than I expected, not at all a bad thing. The 30mm actual width Soma SV SLs felt great, until the rear flat.

It felt like it wanted to shimmy pretty quickly if I took my hands off the bars, but then I remembered the front wheel dish was way off, and...I hadn't dealt with that.

I guess that's what shakedown rides are for.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

[islaysteve]

That's a great-looking bike and a nice build, Paul.  I'm sure you will get the post-build kinks out in time for the second ride.  Enjoy your new Riv!

[Patrick Moore]

Please let us have more ride reports after you get the new bike sorted. 

Curious: Did Joe S braze a wee little "wing" strut between chainstay lugs just aft of seat tube and forward of cs bridge? He did on my 1999 gofast fixie custom (half-assed photo attached).

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Paul Brodek]

Thanks!

I did forget to mention that shifting the 8spd cassette with a dt friction shifter was both less and more annoying than I anticipated. Meaning that I had fewer issues and mis-shifts than I expected, so there were a lot of "gee, this ain't so bad after all" moments, but when the mis-shifts happened---instant rage. Might grin and bear it, might look for an 8spd Shimano indexed rear dt shifter, or I could install the 10spd dt Dura-Ace dt shifter I have and switch to 10spd in the rear.

The gearing did work well as 1x-granny, and since the route didn't have much climbing, I never really needed the 24t ring. I did shift a few times just to make sure the chain didn't dump, but didn't actually ride it.

I did order up a 40t Zephyr ring from Peter White to raise the gearing a hair. That should also let me use the BBG guard I have on hand in the outer position, so it'll look a little less weird.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA 

[Paul Brodek]

Hey Patrick,

My frame doesn't have the Little Wing (Well she's walking/thru the clouds...), but I'm pretty sure what you've got there is a cast bb shell, with the wing integral to the casting. Can't remember who makes it, but I've seen 'em before.

Oh, and I bit the bullet and changed the front rim strip as well. Then the tube burst in the stand, pulling it I saw it had already gotten distorted/damaged by the Velox tape, so it was waiting for fail.

It should be said, though, that the tubes are Q-Tubes Extralights, made by Kenda, which I have used for years without any particular problems. But over the past year or two I've had more than a few rim-side failures with these. Fortunately usually not on the road. Kinda feel like I maybe fell into a bad batch.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

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[Eric Norris]

There’s a maker whose name starts with “W” (can’t recall the name at the moment) who makes BB shells like that. My Richard Sachs has one:

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[lconley]

Pretty sure that is an "M" for Maxway.

I have that same feature on my Maxway single speed frame. I believe that they made some frames for Rivendell at some point, located in Taiwan.

Laing

Delray Beach FL

[lconley]

Not saying they made the frame, just the lug.

Laing

[Paul Brodek]

That bb shell w/shelf-wing design isn't uncommon, fwiw, and the one on Patrick's frame isn't the same shell as the Richard Sachs bb. Richard has been designing his own lugs for a long time now, but I'm not very familiar with who his suppliers have been over the years. So I don't know who made the bb shell in Eric's frame, but it's almost certainly an exclusive Sachs design.

Maxway is a Taiwanese framebuilding company, but I don't think they make their own lugs. They're the go-to shop in Taiwan for higher-end steel frame mfr. They made the Kogswells, wouldn't be surprised if that's who Riv is using for their Taiwan production. The recent Raleigh Team Pro 40th Anniv/Tribute frameset is made by Maxway.

The two better-/best-known lug mfrs in Taiwan are Allotec and Long Shen. I don't know much about Allotec, but the 40th Anniv Raleigh Team Pro uses lugs made by Allotec.

Long Shen was/is better known, I think, but it seems like they're closing/closed. Riv said something about "a sister company" taking over production so they weren't worried. Richard Sachs said he placed a "big m-f order" with Long Shen when he heard the news. He did not abbreviate "m-f."

Long Shen was making the current Sachs lugs, dropouts and probably other frame fittings as well, but they were/are Richard's own designs. He owns the molds/tooling, so potentially he could find someone else to make them, but he ordered enough to likely last till his last hurrah.

Long Shen made lugs for other folks, too, so those folks would have had to scramble to fine new suppliers. The Pacenti lugs/drops, now owned by Framebuilder Supply, were from both Long Shen and Allotec.

I _think_ there's still cast lugs being made in Japan. I'm pretty sure that's where Mark DiNucci gets his lugs/bits made.

Many years ago I visited Nikko Lugs in Japan, with Trek's big (in many senses of the word) buyer Fred Drenhouse (RIP). Fred was so big/tall many just called him "Big Fred." To me he was Fred De House. Sorry for the drift. Nikko still seems to be in business, still making lugs, but they're a bulge-forming company, don't think they do casting. That bb design has to be cast, can't get that wing with bulge-forming, afaik.

Richard Sachs designed some lugs for Grant @ BS USA in the early '90s, with Grant intending Nikko to make them for the RB series. Don't know if those ever went into production.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Eric Norris]

Legend has it that Sachs designed lugs for Bridgestone that ended up being used on the first Road Standards. Any truth to that?

–Eric N

On Sep 28, 2020, at 7:14 PM, Paul Brodek <pcb....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joel Stern]

Sachs did design the lugs for Rivendell.  Don’t know about the Bridgestone part.  

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[Patrick Moore]

Shoot, I thought Joe had thought that little thing up just for me. It's a nice little oddity, but serves no purpose that I can see. 

Speaking of oddities, I had Chauncey braze a wire "L" onto the right seatstay just below the bridge, made I think from an old spoke. This is a chain hook, tho' Joe put an elegant little shelf on the chainstay for this purpose just for'ard of the dropout; but that shelf -- a kind of metalsmith's version of the Columbine hanger  -- doesn't work well, since there is no derailleur to hold the chain taut; the chain just slips off. But the "L" does hold it up out of the sand (no pretty grass verges here) when I have to remove the rear wheel by the side of the road.

I'd guess that the L's upright is about 1/2" long. When he made the 2003 Curt replacement (the Curt didn't have that little chainstay lug wing) I asked him to make the upright longer. He did that. It's about 1 1/2" long, comically long. But it does work; you can skewer both runs of chain on it with room to spare. 

Both of these are really hidden from sight behind the seatstay; you have to crane your neck and peer closely to see them.

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[Todd G.]

Beautiful bike, Paul. Looks very well thought out and I’m sure it rides as good as it looks. Enjoy!

[Paul Brodek]

Looks like Sachs carved the lugs for Bridgestone, which Grant couldn't get them to use. Grant then used them on his first Riv frames.

'93 fax from Grant to Richard re: lug progress @ BS:

https://www.richardsachs.com/a-fax-from-bridgestone/

Jan Heine blog mention, he also says there's more early Riv info in a BQ:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/1995-rivendell-turning-the-tide/

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

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[Paul Brodek]

Thanks, Todd.

I got the 40t Zephyr K ring today, pulled the drive-side crankarm off to install it, and when I tried to switch the rings realized what I actually needed was an Alize K ring, not a Zephry K. Alize is 130bcd, Zephyr is 110bcd. So not even close.

So for all the stuff I wrote in previous posts about the Zephyr K tripelizer ring, should've read Alize K tripelizer ring.

Sheesh. If it's not one thing, it's another.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Joel Stern]

Thanks Paul, I never knew that.

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[Paul Brodek]

Sent back the Zephyr, got the Alize, slapped it on along with the BBG bash guard, raised the fder a hair, and it all works. The slightly higher gearing with the 40t ring is fine, the CX-70 fder shifts the 40-24t gap well. Bottom of the fder cage is closer to the teeth, weird alloy spacer thingie is replaced with something functional. Also got a little bit more cage clearance above the chainstay.

It's all a little less shiny overall, might get a BBG in silver. Maybe sacrifice a 41t ring? Snap off the teeth and file. Though that involves more work...

Second ride, now with the new gearing and all bolts & stuff tightened, was fun. It's a keeper.

But friction shifting the 8spd cassette is, forgive me fellow listers, for da boids. Too fiddly for this old codger, I prefer clicking to cover this many cogs to fishing for gears. Got some Shimano Sora 8spd downtube clickers on the way. I'll probably leave the Silver on the front, Sora for the rear. Every deluxe Riv build should have at least one entry-/mid-range piece on it anyways.

Apologies for the messy background....

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA 

[Joel Stern]

Looks very nice Paul. 

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[Jake P]

Paul,

Love the color. I believe my 2001 All-Rounder is the same. Beautiful dark green, in the shade - but in the sun so much sparkle and star dust it practically glows. Love love love it.

[Richard Sachs]

On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 11:27:53 PM UTC-4 campyo...@me.com wrote:

Legend has it that Sachs designed lugs for Bridgestone that ended up being used on the first Road Standards. Any truth to that?

I did (design these for Bridgestone.)

On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 5:54:04 PM UTC-4 lconley wrote:

Pretty sure that is an "M" for Maxway.

The W is for Walter. 

e-RICHIE

Deep River, CT

[lconley]

I stand corrected.

Laing

[Paul Brodek]

Late reply, but I did manage to measure the bb drop t'other day: 76mm, so not quite 80mm, but deep.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

On Monday, September 21, 2020 at 10:37:50 AM UTC-4, Andy Beichler wrote:

I love that color.  The bottom bracket looks low.  Had Grant started to use the 80mm of drop then or is it just the angle of the picture?

On Monday, September 21, 2020 at 10:11:47 AM UTC-4 Joel wrote:

Beautiful, enjoy. 

On Monday, September 21, 2020 at 12:56:34 AM UTC-4 Andrew Letton wrote:

Lovely build, Paul!

Same year and color as my Riv Road:  1998 Rivendell Road

1998 Rivendell Road Explore this photo album by letton on Flickr!

Enjoy the ride!

cheers,

Andrew

On Monday, September 21, 2020, 11:03:29 AM GMT+10, Paul Brodek <pcb....@gmail.com> wrote:

Took a little while, but I finally landed Ray Foss' '98 Custom Starck-Riv Road frameset. Ray got it from the original owner, but with many other awesome mounts to choose from, Ray never managed to build it up. Doesn't look like Art M., the original owner, rode it much before selling it to Ray. I did manage to build it up, but haven't managed to ride it yet. Maybe tomorrow?

It's only my second Riv, the first was an even earlier '95 Waterford-Riv Road. Bought that one from Peter B. maybe 7-8yrs ago, sold it last year-ish. If I do the math, gaining 3yrs every Riv buy over an 8yr stretch, in about 64yrs I'll have myself a '21! I'm catching up!

I mulled over the build while reeling it in, decided on this first go-round to do a period-correct-ish Riv quasi-tribute, all silver components, nothing insanely current. The frame came with Silver dt shifters, so they had to stay. Very few silver-rimmed wheelsets under my roof, at least ones that are modern-enough to have a 130mm rear OLN. All I had was a clean set of Ultegra tri-color hubs on Mavic Reflex SUP. 'Sup? Then I found a decent amount of Dura-Ace 7x00-series silver stuff, so rder/brakes/cranks/stem are D-A. The top tube is a little on the long side for me, 60.5cm, so the D-A stem is only 90mm. Tried a D-A post, but there's not a lot of post showing, and the bottom of the flutes on the D-A post sat below the lugline, providing a possible water incursion route, so a cut-short Thomson Elite works for now. Been saving the green Brooks B-17 Champion standard for something, turns out it was this.

I wanted non-aero brake cable routing, but I'm no longer thrilled with those smaller vintage lever bodies. Then I remembered a pair of Campy C-Record dual-routing levers were....somewhere...and they turned up. Pairing them with the D-A 7800 dual-pivots is a little weird, I'm wishing the caliper spring tension was higher, but it oughta work OK.

It's geared for now with a 38/24 compact double, using a Peter White-sourced TA Zephyr K tripelizer ring, mounted on the inside position. 11-28t 8spd cassette in the rear, so I still get a decent low gear and can use the med-cage D-A rder. The Shimano CX-70 fder sits a little high over the outer ring, can't get it any lower without scraping the top of the chainstay, but it shifts fine in the stand. I didn't have a BBG bashguard small enough to use in the outer position, I'd have to raise the fder even higher for that, so there's a weird BBG spacer thingie there. Coulda just used track chainring bolts, but I guess I was looking for more silvery bling, and an unused outer chainring ledge just looks a little lonely.

The frame's built around 49mm-reach brakes, and the 33mm Soma Supple Vitesse SLs at about 30mm on the narrow Mavic rims are close to max. Pinch point is under the calipers, as it should be on a well-designed 49mm-reach frame, so wider would work OK, but taller would get too tight.

Having never shifted an 8spd cog range in friction mode before, I'm looking forward to a nice ride with a fair amount of cussing.

Flickr album here:

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmQTkD5A

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

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[Paul Brodek]

Okeley-dokeleys, I'm calling it done fer now. D-A 7800 10spd-only cassette hub/s, Velocity Aerohead rims, 12-30t 10spd, D-A 7900 10spd indexed dt shifters. 40/24t chainrings, with TA Alize-K tripleizer and BBG bash guard.

Good night, nurse.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

On Sunday, September 20, 2020 at 8:59:10 PM UTC-4, Paul Brodek wrote:

Took a little while, but I finally landed Ray Foss' '98 Custom Starck-Riv Road frameset. Ray got it from the original owner, but with many other awesome mounts to choose from, Ray never managed to build it up. Doesn't look like Art M., the original owner, rode it much before selling it to Ray. I did manage to build it up, but haven't managed to ride it yet. Maybe tomorrow?

[snip]