Lighten Up: Clem Edition

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I’m not fully committing to this yet. Roberta and I get into trouble because we talk on Marco Polo and then we get ideas and then we like each other’s ideas and the next thing we know our wallets are on fire.

So, I am ordering a Cheviot, and I am spending extra $ to build it with light parts. But that bike is a long way off, months, in fact. Meanwhile, Roberta is giving her beloved Appaloosa a makeover and it is getting lots of new parts and she’s having all the fun. And since we’re #Rivsisters and I’m like that little sister who wants what her sister has, I want to explore what it would take to lighten up my Clem L, which is my only bike at present, and which is quite heavy. You’ll have heard me mention this in Joe’s What Is A Cheviot thread. If my Clem could lose a little weight it would be the most perfect bike anyone could dream up. A Susie version of Clems would be just so ideal - someone should tell Riv.

Anyway, if I got aluminum Bosco bars, and new wheels (don’t ask me what kind, how would I know?) would this make my bike feel considerably lighter? I don’t think I can give up my front derailleur because I use it for Killer Hill. And what if I wanted to add dyno while I was at it? Would that negate my weight savings? Also, I’m keeping my racks; I can’t part with those. Maybe I’m not the best candidate for this...

Has anyone built a Clem up with lighter parts? Does it make a big difference? As in, is it worth the money?

Thanks!
Leah

[J Imler]

I decided to use the lightest rear rack (aluminum old school Trek USA) in my rack collection during my quarantine Clem build. The build began as a Boeshield frame spray so I really got a feel for the weight of the frame. Mines a 59, so large. I’m sticking to only one rack, no fenders. Utility trail bike is what I’m going for.

[LeRoy]

Here is your basic question: "Has anyone built a Clem up with lighter parts? Does it make a big difference? As in, is it worth the money?"

To pick an analogy, in the world of race cars, the adage is that "Speed costs money." The question of how much money it costs can be turned on its head by asking, "How fast do you want to go?"

Putting that query to use in the case of making a lighter Clem, the question becomes, "How light do you want to get?" The simple answer is that making a (meaningfully) lighter Clem could get very expensive. And the question would remain, have you made it meaningfully lighter?

The fact that any Clem starts life with a very robust frame and fork is a hindrance in the quest for lightness. The desire to retain the front derailleur makes that weight non-negotiable. The same would be true with retaining the racks. Not to mention adding a front dyno. And what about the bags? This leaves a huge share of the existing mass intact and relatively few parts to change. You could skip fenders entirely (you're already half way there!) and replace your wheels and tires with the lightest parts that would serve your needs. Almost everything else is really small potatoes in its cumulative potential for weight reduction and absurdly expensive for the meager grams of weight-saving.

This is my long-winded way of saying that, sadly, a Clem is an unlikely candidate for light-weighting, especially with the equipment you'd like to retain. The one area that might help to enhance a feeling of lightness would be a very light wheel and tire combination. That would at least fee more spritely when accelerating.

The best answer might be to leave your Clem in its satisfyingly competent configuration for its current uses. Then, build your upcoming Cheviot as the lightweight. It's simply a better start in that direction.

Bob Sharp - owner of an embarrassingly heavy Clem

[Joe Bernard]

I sort of agree with LeRoy EXCEPT I see no reason not to spend some cash on the wheels for the Clem, even if you'll go all in on the Cheviot later.

Most of the weight you *feel* on a Clem while pedaling - especially up hill - is in those hefty budget hoops, I think you would get a kick out of really nice wheels on it. Even with a nice Schmidt SON hub they'll probably be lighter overall, and certainly so in the rear. So wheels yes..I probably wouldn't dive too deep into replacing other stuff.

[Joe Bernard]

I should clarify, I agree with everything he said about parts and wheels. I'm just more on the side of do the wheels AND fancy up your Cheviot later. I think you'll love them on the Clem, and that's still your main bike for the better part of this year from what I can see.

[franklyn]

I would say that there are still things you can do now. Do the Clem L and Cheviot have the same wheel size? If so, I would go ahead and spec a light wheels for the Cheviot now, but use it on the Clem until the Cheviot arrives. Besides the frame set, wheels probably are the next big ticket item both in terms of cost, as well as proportion of the overall weight.

Tires are next. What tires do you use? For example, one Schwalbe Big Ben wired tire in 650b can weigh up to 850g! Whereas a similar width Thunder Burt can weigh as little as 460g. For a pair of tires that's 800g or almost 2 lbs! Using lightweight Schwalbe tubes in those size can easily save you another 100g for a pair.

I think you have a golden opportunity to conduct an experiment to see if the weight saving ok your Clem is worth your money. Go ahead and buy the lightweight parts for your Cheviot now and use them on your Clem until your Cheriot arrives. This way you can see how your Clem feels a little lighter and decide if it's worth it for you to have light parts on your Clem. If not, just take the light weight parts off and put them on the Cheviot.

Franklyn

[Mark Roland]

Buying the wheelset now for the Chev and running them on the Clem is a great idea. Unfortunately, I believe the new Chevs are going to be 700c in Leah's size. I could be wrong. But if they are, maybe buying a used 650B is the answer--from someone who would like to go to the new 700c size, perhaps? I am still puzzled why the recently sold Betty would not have fit this bill (but I am certainly not opposed to getting a new bike, and a quest is a quest!)

Around 1991, I bought a Kellog Spectrum titanium racing bike, one of the earliest semi-production models, from Tom Kellog in Pennsylvania. Back then they still did not have the machining to do bottom bracket threads in titanium, so it came with press fit bb. With a tubular wheelset, I guess it was pretty light (I was racing at the time, and understood light to be "better", but never weighed the thing or sought out too many extra-light parts--I think I bought some fancy ti Salsa or somebody skewers.)

A stripped-down lighter bicycle definitely is a different riding experience, and can be lots of fun. But, aside from rando bikes (which a Chev or Clem will never be) once you start talking about racks and fenders and bags and lights and such, your weight reduction cause is pretty much hopeless. Enjoy the Caddy experience.

For the Cheviot build, as Joe and others have mentioned, your biggest difference will be in the wheelset. But even there, I assume you want a certain width of tire, and I am not sure what lightweight rim brake rims are out there that are good for, say, a 40-50mm tire--though I run Steilacoom nominal 38mm tires on skinny vintage Ukai rims, I doubt you'll be spec'ing anything so narrow. Maybe others on the list have an idea of an appropriate rim/hub combo that will be significantly lighter than the stock Alex/? wheels. I know the Atlas aren't all that much lighter, if any.

I'll hazard a guess and say you can get the Chev to be 6-8 pounds lighter than the Clem without too much effort. But a lot of that will be no rack or fenders, and more expensive tires. I doubt there is more than a pound difference in the frame/fork between the two. Still, with that pared-down setup (okay, you can have a basket), whatever lightish wheels you can configure, lightweight saddle (start looking and testing now!) and a Rene Herse crankset, you will definitely get a distinctly different ride, and have a fabulous Riv mixte to boot.

Re, will switching to aluminum Boscos make a big diff. This is from the description on the website, and referring to what I assume would be the next size up from your width, meaning you will see less weight savings by moving from cromo:

Get the aluminum 58 if you are tempted to ask the weight difference. Get the 55 CrMo if you don’t care about the few-ounces weight difference, and want o save a few $ or so.

It's all cumulative, of course, so just switching bars, no. But in combo with saddle, wheels, seatpost, cranks, tires, yes.

Or, you could just send all your parts to someone like J.P. Weigle and have him do this.

Or, sell your Clem L and get a Suzie and trick it out. Good luck have fun!

[Mark Roland]

Edit: I doubt there is more than a pound or maybe two difference in the frame/fork between them

[Surlyprof]

A few years ago, I traded a pair of aluminum bosco bars for CrMo ones despite the weight gain. Although I prefer the finish on CrMo Nitto bars, the main reason I did the trade was pliability. I find almost anything aluminum to be too stiff. I thought this was particularly noticeable on the handlebars. I felt the little bit of extra weight was worth the comfort and beauty.

John
Niles, CA

[Roberta]

Leah,

Would you also consider putting on just one rack rather than two on your Chev?  Since it won't be your "hauling" bike, that might do you just fine. Do you know if those Nitto racks are heavy or lighter than a similar rack (they certainly are prettier)?  That would also lighten it up by two Backabike bags.

Roberta

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 12:02:00 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

[Reid Echols]

When I swapped the stock tires on my old Clem for thunder burts I think I lost a good 3-4 pounds, and in a place that really affected the way it feels while riding. Cheapest/easiest place to lose weight (besides the “engine”) is getting a lighter set of tires, and maybe, as has been suggested, wheels.

Reid in TX

[maxcr]

On your dyno question, I once asked the same thing and here's what James at Analog Cycles said:

"Out of curiosity, I weighed both systems.

I put a standard front hub, good  rechargeable headlight, and battery powered tail light on the postal scale.  17 oz.  

I put a Schmidt hub and headlight and wired schmidt tail light on the same scale.  17.5 oz. "

So, I would definitely add a dyno if it's within budget!

Max

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 12:02:00 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

[James / Analog Cycles]

The wheels we're building and tire change on Roberta's bike alone save 3lbs.  The 1x conversion will save even more.  I told her to ditch her kickstand, because you can lean your bike or use a curb / pedal kickstand easily.   The bike will never be light, but lighter wheels will make it feel very light, and if we save 5 lbs, she can heft it easier onto the train.   If I could convince her to go tubeless, we'd save another 200+ grams...  

-James / Analog Cycles / Get Enlightened.  

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 12:02:00 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

See? I’m glad i asked because there are so many good points here. Let me see if I can respond to a few of the points/questions here.

New 55 Chev has 700 c wheels, so I can’t swap.

Roberta - YES, I will only have a rear rack and a Randi Jo bag on my bars. This will not be my hauling bike. The noble Clem can do that. (I cringe hearing myself say it because that’s pretty big talk. I’m probably strapping bags on and bringing treasures with me, who am I kidding.)

Franklyn, I have 2 inch Big Bens on that Clem right now, which, as you mentioned, are heavy.

LeRoy, you made a lot of solid points, and I think you’re right, I’m not changing the Clem with small, expensive parts swapping, so I’ll leave those bars and components alone. The DNA of the Clem is hard to buck. Also, I laughed at your fender reference. Leah Peterson is saving weight on her Clem - one fender!

Mark - I knew you would say this! Once you have known and loved long chainstays, you can’t go back. Well, I can’t. If I had the Betty and only the Betty, it’d have been content because I’d not have known the difference. But once I had the Clem and I had the choice, I chose the long, comfortable Clem every single time. That poor Betz sat parked. I think the longer Cheviot is going be be an improvement. Plus, I am partial to the name, headbadge and decals and always have been. I knew nothing about bikes when I bought my Betty. I got whatever Rivendell put on there. And now I know enough to ask for what I want and it’s going to be the first bike I’ve ever had say over and I cannot wait.

But I do think the one thing to come out of this is that wheels make a difference, which Joe and Franklyn also allude to. I’d be open to buying new wheels/tires if it made me a little lighter and thus faster. Plus, I know I’m getting dyno on the Cheviot and I have been thinking about it for the Clem. It’s $$$ but bikes are my one extravagance.

Surlyprof mentioned difference between aluminum and steel - I wouldn’t have known. That is really helpful.

Well, carry on. I have really enjoyed the opinions here.

Thanks so much for sharing your wisdom,
Leah

[franklyn]

Some of these lighter but more "expensive" things can be had more cheaply with some astute shopping. That's part of the reason these online groups are helpful as we can swap and upgrade to good used parts and sometimes get good intel on sale of new parts! 

For example, these 650b Schwalbe Thunder Burts tires are now only $29 per at Universal. Were you using 50mm Big Ben? If you can fit Thunder Burts, you will shave 2 lbs off just by changing out the tires. Not only that, these Burts are "supple" and great for mixed terrain riding also, and are known to roll well even on pavement. 

What James is doing with Roberta's bike is exactly how I would go about it if I were try to shave weight off my own bike.

Franklyn

[Brian Campbell]

Buy a Roadeo and put upright bars on it. I guarantee your Clem will be relegated to "shopping bike" status afterward.

[ted]

James wrote "If I could convince her to go tubeless, we'd save another 200+ grams...  "

James would you mind breaking that down, and detailing what you are including in each alternative?

[Brian Campbell]

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 10:31:22 AM UTC-4, Brian Campbell wrote:

Buy a Roadeo and put upright bars on it. I guarantee your Clem will be relegated to "shopping bike" status afterward. 

D'oh hit post before I finished! I have an AHH (old version) that with fenders,dyno lights weighs 26lbs. I had the same bike built up with racks and bags that I rarely used. When I removed them I save 8lbs and it made a huge difference for me. To me having two bikes that are significantly different makes sense. Having a non-mixte style bike might be something you really enjoy. 

I can tell you from my own experience riding a lighter bike can be more enjoyable. It simply depends on what you are using the bike for.

[Leah Peterson]

8 pounds, wow! That would feel like a huge difference. 

Nope, I’ll never not enjoy a mixte-style bike. I just cannot give up the freedom of not being constrained by a top tube. YOU should buy a Cheviot. Because having two bikes that are significantly different makes sense! 😜😂 All the cool kid are buying Cheviots.

But wow, 26 pounds would be great! 

In fun,

Leah

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On Apr 8, 2020, at 7:43 AM, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Lyman Labry]

Hello,

 I’m new to Rivendell family and enjoying this discussion on ways to lighten your bike through wheel sets.  

Can anyone comment on the Rivendell 700c Velocity built Standard Atlas wheel set in terms of lightness and comparison to other possibilities?

Thanks,

Lyman ATX

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[Leah Peterson]

Franklyn - I know nothings bout Thunder Burts but I’m tempted to buy them because that is CHEAP. 

Are they pretty resistant to flats? Flats are not my thing. They scare me and I don’t know how to change them 😬😜

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On Apr 8, 2020, at 7:31 AM, franklyn <sin...@msn.com> wrote:



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[ted]

Which should be motivating you to do that experiment.

Ride your bike, weigh it, strip off the bags, racks, fenders, kick stand, etc., weigh it again, and ride it again.

Note how many lbs you removed and how different (or similar) the striped bike is to the original configuration.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 7:50:08 AM UTC-7, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

8 pounds, wow! That would feel like a huge difference. 

Nope, I’ll never not enjoy a mixte-style bike. I just cannot give up the freedom of not being constrained by a top tube. YOU should buy a Cheviot. Because having two bikes that are significantly different makes sense! 😜😂 All the cool kid are buying Cheviots.

But wow, 26 pounds would be great! 

In fun,

Leah

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 8, 2020, at 7:43 AM, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 10:31:22 AM UTC-4, Brian Campbell wrote:

Buy a Roadeo and put upright bars on it. I guarantee your Clem will be relegated to "shopping bike" status afterward. 

D'oh hit post before I finished! I have an AHH (old version) that with fenders,dyno lights weighs 26lbs. I had the same bike built up with racks and bags that I rarely used. When I removed them I save 8lbs and it made a huge difference for me. To me having two bikes that are significantly different makes sense. Having a non-mixte style bike might be something you really enjoy. 

I can tell you from my own experience riding a lighter bike can be more enjoyable. It simply depends on what you are using the bike for.

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[franklyn]

Compared to road slicks, Thunder Burts are definitely more "burly", but they don't have the protective belts like Marathon or Big Bens do. 

three thoughts about flats:

1. Jan Heine's opinion is that when you use supple tires and run them at a reasonably low pressure, your chance of getting a flat us significantly lower. I have similar practice and tended to have similar luck as he does. Even when I was commuting daily through the debris-strewn streets of San Francisco I rarely had flat on my supple wide 650b tires.

2. Go tubeless as James suggested. If your rims are tubeless compatible, then tubeless improves on both situations. You are a lighter AND more puncture resistant. Tubeless sealant can seal most punctures you encounter on the road. There was a flickr picture of lister David removing goatheads from his tires at home but he didn't flat from them!

3. If your wheels are not tubeless compatible at the moment, you can put tubeless sealant in your inner tubes. At the lowish pressure (35psi) these wide tires run, most punctures will also be sealed by sealant-in-tube. You might experience a drop in pressure when the puncture takes place, but it won't flat. Just pump it up and you are good to go. 

Franklyn

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[Brian Campbell]

Ha! I have a heavy mixte already. ;-) 1970's Raleigh Super Course mixte frame with fenders, rack and a 7 speed internal geared hub.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 10:50:08 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

8 pounds, wow! That would feel like a huge difference. 

Nope, I’ll never not enjoy a mixte-style bike. I just cannot give up the freedom of not being constrained by a top tube. YOU should buy a Cheviot. Because having two bikes that are significantly different makes sense! 😜😂 All the cool kid are buying Cheviots.

But wow, 26 pounds would be great! 

In fun,

Leah

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 8, 2020, at 7:43 AM, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 10:31:22 AM UTC-4, Brian Campbell wrote:

Buy a Roadeo and put upright bars on it. I guarantee your Clem will be relegated to "shopping bike" status afterward. 

D'oh hit post before I finished! I have an AHH (old version) that with fenders,dyno lights weighs 26lbs. I had the same bike built up with racks and bags that I rarely used. When I removed them I save 8lbs and it made a huge difference for me. To me having two bikes that are significantly different makes sense. Having a non-mixte style bike might be something you really enjoy. 

I can tell you from my own experience riding a lighter bike can be more enjoyable. It simply depends on what you are using the bike for.

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[Bill Schairer]

I would suggest that another way to change the feel of your bike would be to play with the gearing. If you are currently geared for hauling your steps between gears may make finding that perfect, effortless gear more difficult than if you had smaller steps between gears. Gear the bike for how you want to use it. That could mean changing cassette, chainrings, and even derailleurs and crank. So much opportunity for fun experimentation.

Bill S

[Roberta]

James,  I guess I listen too.  :)  I just imagine tubeless goo all over the place if it leaks. Let's talk.  Also, black sidewalls, not tan.

Roberta

[Ahmed Elgasseir]

I’m with you Roberta! :-D

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[ted]

Roberta,

I am an old dog, and slow to learn new tricks. With decades of riding on light tires I'm familiar and comfortable with fixing flats roadside, and skeptical of the purported wounderfulness of tubeless, particularly with higher pressure lower volume roadie tires. However last fall I got yet another bike and opted for a tubeless setup. Now 6 months in I'll say:

   i  I've had zero trouble with my tubless tires

  ii  My tubless tires don't hold air as well as my tires with tubes in them (absent flats of course)

 iii  I've yet to need to mess with my tubeless tires during a ride.

 iv  I find I tend to ride my tubless bike after it rains (rain washes more stuff onto the roads and flats seem more frequent)

  v  I'm much more relaxed riding along trails that have "goat head" producing flora all over the place with the tubeless tires

 vi  It's time to add more sealant to my tires. Apparently this is a "cost" of tubless, the sealant dries up over time. Something to be aware of going in.

If you won't tolerate flats, and you don't like the ride of uber stout tires or want to shave weight by running light tires I'd say giving the tubeless thing a go is probably a good idea.

[lconley]

I put a set of Fatty Rumpkin Greens on my Clementine, and they definitely make for a more responsive ride than the Big Bens.

Reduction of rotating weight always pays the greatest dividend of any lightening efforts. With cars the rule-of-thumb is that 1 lb. off the wheels/tires is equal to 10 lb. off any non-rotating part of the car - especially important on low power vehicles. I put wheels and tires on my Honda Fit that were a total of 40 lbs. lighter than the stock equipment and it is noticeably quicker. 

Laing

Delray Beach FL 

[Melanie]

James and Roberta - what lighter 650B wheels are you recommending?

[Joe Bernard]

I'm a Tubeless Denier because I've had miserable luck mounting them with a floor pump and I'm not willing to pay for a noisy compressor to do the job, but I've been fixing flats for more decades than I care to number here and consider it part of the cycling deal. For folks who are not me and aren't fixing/mounting tires anyway, tubeless seems the way to go for lightness and less flats. I had them on a Crust Lightning Bolt I got from James and Candice @ Analog and they were light and plush.

Roberta: I did get one puncture which sent some goo flying because I didn't use fenders, but it sealed up right away and got me back home. I had some cleanup to do later but it was a lot less work than if I'd had to stop and swap tubes on the road.

Conclusion: Don't be like Old School Joe, go tubeless, be light with no flats!

[James / Analog Cycles]

Melanie, we don't just recommend wheels randomly, we build quotes based on rider weight, bike style, gear weight, where the riding is taking place, and what kind of weather it will be ridden in.   Roberta's wheelset might not be suitable to you, and visa versa.  Feel free to email me if you have any other questions!  

-James   

[Leah Peterson]

I hope Rivendell is reading some of these threads and that they will design bikes that are more accessible to the female of the species. Like the Susie. Typically we women don’t have the upper body strength of men, and we tend to be lighter. So, when people say “make the bike lighter, focus on the engine” it doesn’t do me any good. 

Actually, this came up just yesterday. The boys have surrogate grandparents here in Vegas. They are a lovely couple in their mid-70s who don’t have grandchildren and so have claimed my boys. This couple is active and they like to ride their bikes together. Yesterday the wife called me and she asked me where I got my bike and how did I find that company? She wants to get her bars up higher and she wants a lighter bike. I was so deflated because there is not one Riv I could recommend to her - she is maybe 5’2” and 105 pounds. I cannot see her on a Clem L or a Cheviot because they are just too unwieldy. She doesn’t want a diamond frame, so the Roadini is out. She is not going to spend $6k on a custom. They take their bikes on their bike rack and we have really steep hills here and I just know the Clem/Cheviot are not the right choice for her. I love Rivendell best of all bikes in existence but I cannot recommend a Rivendell to her.

I’d like to see a little more diversity in the Riv lineup so that it would be more inclusive. I know who the customer base is and that I’m in the minority, and that’s fine, but there are more people like me and Roberta and Melanie and Ann now, and it would be nice to buy Rivs that we don’t have to beat into submission to accommodate our female-ness. 

I hope that didn’t come off as harsh. I don’t mean it to be. I really want Rivendell to do well; I love that company. I’d like to see it grow.

Leah

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On Apr 8, 2020, at 9:05 AM, Melanie <myo...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[franklyn]

Joe,

Tubeless sealant in inner tubes is a good compromise if you don't want to worry about compressors, but want to have the benefits of the sealant. I have two bikes with tubeless and 3 with tubes. I also don't have a compressor. With new tubeless tires I have had good luck using my floor pump to seat the beads. With used tires, I go to a nearby gas station and use a valve converter and a quarter to inflate quickly! 

Franklyn

[franklyn]

The combination that will fulfill these functions features are pretty unique: non-diamond frame, lightweight tubes, long wheelbase, wide tires. Even the Betty and Cheviot, which are lighter than the Clem Ls, are not considered light, especially not for folks who are in the weight range you are talking about. My wife is ~ 125 lbs and Betty would have been too stout for her, even if she carries a full commuting or camping load. 

There are other companies who make small batches mixte frames. I have a soft spot for Jitensha because I have an Ebisu and it is on the same street as my house in Berkeley. It makes a beautiful mixte (scroll down half way). You can pick your custom color. It is $1000 more than a Cheviot, but not as expensive as a custom. It will be lighter than Betty, but I doubt Hiroshi-san (the proprietor there) would spec anyone long seat stays in the neighborhood of more recent Rivs. 

At mid-$2000 range, you can find a competent custom builder to build you something that ticks all those boxes.

Franklyn

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[Mike Packard]

I agree with the notion that new tires are probably the easiest way to improve the ride. But I must respectfully disagree with the light & supple knobby tire (e.g. Thunder Burt) advice for the type of bikes and riding we're talking about in this thread. For myself I start with the fastest, plushest smooth tires and then only downgrade to knobbies only if the riding really needs it, which it never does. I have Barlow Pass (700x38) on my Homer and they can handle anything I do on that bike, including trails.

Flats: The trick is to run them at a pressure where I look down and they are slightly deflected while riding. I went over a year with no flats on a pair. This applies to all tires BTW.

Price: Maybe more than some other tires but I'm riding a Rivendell because I am want the best possible riding experience. The tires last years and are probably the most noticeable improvement in ride I made to my bike. It's a total bargain to me.

(Disclaimer: I am not a prolific tire tester; I have not tried the other smooth tires like horizons and somas and g-ones and such; I'm sure some of the others are just as good, I just don't have personal experience with them.) 

[Joe Bernard]

"The combination that will fulfill these functions features are pretty unique: non-diamond frame, lightweight tubes, long wheelbase, wide tires."

Whether there's actually a market for them worth Grant/Riv's trouble is above my pay grade, but I see Leah's point of wanting to recommend a Riv to her neighbors and not feeling like she could. My 45cm Clem L was pretty stout for such a small step-thru frame..great for short-not-125-lbs. me, but really how many guys are looking for that frame? I think a 45 Clem fitting the criteria in your quote makes more sense.

[DHans]

My recommendation would be to move away from gendered names and gendered marketing and just build bikes that are lighter weight, heavier weight and let the buyer choose which suits them best. Society seems to be moving in this direction and why not follow that path for the better of all. A big strong person may want a lighter bike for their own reasons and may not be comfortable buying a Susie or a Frankie or whatever for what ever reason, doesn't really matter. Variety is the spice of life, right? I'm sure offering more frames is costly but like Leah said, we all like Rivendell Bike Works and want them to be successful. If they can find a way to offer more bike selections I think sales would increase. I'm a bit of an impulse buyer, unfortunately, and when a frame is "out of stock" I may not be ready to buy in six months. I hope Riv succeeds and can make more options for folks.

Doug

[Joe Bernard]

Totally agree about the names. It was pointed out to me recently that when the Clementine name was dropped so it wouldn't be a "girl's bike", we were still left with a guy name for all of them. And guess who didn't notice because I'm a guy?? I was embarrassed by that 🤦

[Kent Peterson -- Eugene, Oregon]

Joe (and others),

You don't need a compressor if you decide to go tubeless. Just get a good pump with a reserve tank, like this one:

https://amzn.to/3c0Ck88

You pump up the tank to a very high pressure, the flip a switch & whoosh the air goes into your tire super fast. It's very nifty & entirely human powered.

Kent Peterson
Eugene, OR USA

[ted]

I’ve long thought it odd that boats are female but bikes aren’t.
Have you ever known a guy who wouldn’t own a boat with female name?

[Joe Bernard]

Honestly Ted the gendered name thing for vehicles has always eluded me. Some guys refer to their cars as "her" and...I don't get it. It's metal, it's an it.

[ted]

No argument, though how do you feel about Romance languages where everything is gendered?
With boats I’d say it’s just cultural tradition dating way back, and any rationalization would likely seem sexist.
Alls I’m saying is I think the notion that giving a conveyance a female name makes it ill suited for male use or ownership seems odd to me.

[Joe Bernard]

I guess I have no feeling about Romance languages and have gone off on quite a lockdown-induced tangent. I should probably go ride my very light Frank Jones Señor! 😉

[Eric Floden]

this one from BSNY?

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Well, whatever you think of the gendered bike names, I feel really sorry for the person who has to report their bike missing/stolen one day and tell the police it’s a Wolbis Slugstone.

[in Dallas nick]

Way to go Leah!

A friend and I can't stop laughing at your remarks

We are both big Riv fans as well but that is a strange name in my view.

Put in the situation of reporting it stolen might cause the policeman to want to do a breathalyzer test on the one reporting.

Laughter is good medicine,

Paul in Dallas 

"Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!

[Leah Peterson]

When I took my bikes in for service at REI the mechanics would always ask, “Well, why is this one a Clem Smith Jr and this one a Clementine? What’s the difference?” Oh, the naming thing was just so hard.

I was never fond of “Betty Foy”, either. But I loved the color scheme. I think they did a good job with Cheviot. Cheviot is great.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 8, 2020, at 1:52 PM, in Dallas nick <trueg...@att.net> wrote:



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[Joe Bernard]

I'm pro Cheviot. Great name, great sheep. I liked Saluki, too.

[James / Analog Cycles]

A Soma Mixte with light wheels and a 1x drivetrain probably fits the bill.  Happy to help with one if needed.

Best, james

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[Adam Leibow]

As someone who's had both the Cheviot and the Clem L, I don't understand the comments about the Cheviot being lighter or faster. My Cheviot was neither compared to my Clem L, and it wasn't because of a difference of part weight or the presence of a rack or not. The builds were almost identical. I found the Clem L to be more springy and light (maybe not in actual weight, but in pedal stroke sensation / effort). 

However, it could have been the tires. The Cheviot had 2.0" Big Bens and the Clem L had Compass Antelope Hills (~2.3"). The Big Bens are much heavier and have more rolling resistance. Perhaps try a lighter, suppler tire like the Antelope Hill or the Schwalbe G One? 

As someone who owns an actually light bike (sub-20lb titanium road bike with carbon fork and no cargo whatsoever), I really don't see making the Clem L meaningfully lighter, unless you're talking about big differences like "front and rear steel racks vs. no racks". 

Ride characteristics of a frame and bike fit are just as important to your speed as sheer bike weight. 

[Roberta]

Joe and Franklin--Is the compressor for only originally seating the tire, or is it for ongoing pumping in air?  So, if I have James mount the tire, i'm OK with my standard floor pump for pumping air in?

Ted--when you say it doesn't hold air as well, are you talking pumping on a daily or hourly basis instead of weekly, or is it in the same ballpark, but just slightly more often?

Thanks,

Roberta

[Joe Bernard]

Roberta, it's for seating the tire. I had some tubeless tires on wheels not on a bike (the SimWorks tires we briefly discussed) and I made the lame mistake of letting them go flat from non use. I couldn't get them seated again with my floor pump to save my life. Which connects to you next question...

They need to be checked every other day or so, especially if you run the lower pressures they allow. I'm used to checking tubed tires once a week.

Conclusion: If you get them seated and pumped up from James and stay on it, you're good with tubeless tires.

[ted]

Roberta,

Re air retention of my tubeless tire setup:

  Caveats/context:

    I have WTB byway tires (650b 48mm) on WTB rims set up with orange seal (pretty sure) by Mike at Black Mountain Cycles.

    I weigh between 150 and 160 lbs.

    I tend to run what I think is pretty low pressure in them, like 25/30 psi for all pavement. A bit less if heading onto trails/fire roads.

    I'm a bit over obsessive about tire pressure.

  Leakage:

    Absent doing a poor job patching a tube, I am used to going several days without a measurable change in tire pressure.

    With my tubeless wheels at first it seemed like they might be loosing about 1 psi a day, but I don't keep good records so ...

    I got in the habit of topping up the tires with a floor pump most every time I ride that bike (usually I don't ride that one every day).

    The other day when I went to ride it the rear was much lower than the front. I don't know if that is related to a self sealed leak I never noticed or not.

    I've heard and read that after 6 months or so you may need to add some fresh sealant, and I've had that bike ~6 months now so ...

  My opinion:

    If one were to let your bike sit for weeks on end without riding it (which I don't think you do) tubeless might not hold air as well as desired.

    For near daily use (or even just weekly) its a non issue but something to be aware of, particularly if you are in the habit of ignoring your tires.

    If you don't already have a nice floor pump with an integrated gauge, buy one immediately. They last a long time and are way worth it.

regards

ted

[Jason Fuller]

Funny, I'm going through a similar process with my Clem H. I swapped over everything from my upgraded vintage MTB city 'beater', so it's a somewhat eclectic mix of mostly economy-based parts, with a good sprinkling of fancy parts as well.  The result is a pretty heavy bike - and it's mostly due to the wheels. Similarly, for you, I would suggest that as light of weight tires and wheels as you can reasonably accept (based on the trade-off of potential flats and maintenance) will be the best bang for the buck... not that nice wheelsets are cheap. 

[Abcyclehank]

Leah,

I have a wonderful 650B velocity wheel set you may try.  Also have g-ones tires and Hetras you could try.  A different size rim will require an adjustment to brake pads.

It does frustrate me slightly that you ignore my advice about wheel and tire improvement on ride and weight until 4-5 others state the same claim.  Oh well what do I know.

For the record the least expensive option would have been to simply swap parts wheels etc from the Betz build over to the Clem to see which modifications were worth the build.

However since you boxed up the bike before trying the other wheels and had no mechanic to help you with the swap and now the Benz has a new owner; therefore shopping for and buying new parts (wheels and tires 1st) buying used parts or borrowing some from me is really your only options.

Sincerely,

Ryan Hankinson

West Michigan

[franklyn]

Roberta,

I think like all things, how long your tubeless tires will hold air depends on many factors. Some of it depends on the tires. The supple tires I like to ride from Rene Herse/Compass have side walls weaved from fabrics. Air leaks from the interface between the rim and the tire as well as the sidewalls, slowly. With sealants inside, the leaking air pushes the sealant toward the crevices, thereby sealing them. The first 1-3 days of setting up a tubeless tire involves a rinse-repeat cycle of pumping up the tire, spinning it to distribute the sealant, letting the crevices get sealed up, adding sealant and pumping up. After a handful or less of this cycle, the tire I have typically holds air very well.

I work about two hours from my house, and before the pandemic, I would travel to my office, stay for 3 nights, and come home for the weekend. I would need to pump my tires, once set up properly, maybe twice in 3 weeks. I ride 48mm RH/Compass tires are 30-35 psi and I am just north of 200 lbs. I top off sealant (through the valve with the core taken off) every 5-6 months. I heard from a local shop that Orange Seal's endurance variety can last longer. I bought a bottle and will give it a try.

The difficulty in seating only happens at set up. Afterward even if the tire is completely flat you can pump it back up no problem.

In case you need to replace your tire, or use an used tire on another tubeless set up, there are ways without going to the shop. Another person already mentioned that they have floor pumps nowadays that has a reservoir that unleashes a big volume of air at once. I don't have that, but I just go down to the neighborhood gas station with my Schrader to presto valve converter, throw in a quarter and use the compressor there.

Just for reference. I had a tire that I set up once and never had to worry about seating the bead until it was time to replace the tire.

Franklyn

[Leah Peterson]

Oh Ryan, so salty. I didn’t know you had 650B - I did know you had 700 c. I am thinking of getting dyno though...would need to have dyno compatibility...do you have those in your basement somewhere too? 😜

I’m not good at pulling parts off one bike and installing on another! It was better to just sell the whole Betz. Don’t you think I deserve some new wheels? Betz is 8 year old now. And not compatible with dyno.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 8, 2020, at 7:13 PM, 'Abcyclehank' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Joe Bernard]

"The difficulty in seating only happens at set up. Afterward even if the tire is completely flat you can pump it back up no problem."

This was not my experience. I had two go flat (because I let them sit) and couldn't reseat them with my floor pump.

[Brian Campbell]

Now I don't want get in to the middle of a fray but why would a dyno hub not work on a Betty Foy?

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[Leah Peterson]

It would but my wheels on the Foy weren’t built for dyno. I want dyno on my Clem, I’m fairly certain, so I don’t want the Betz wheels on there.

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On Apr 8, 2020, at 8:02 PM, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[franklyn]

Interesting. Every time I top off sealant (through the valve with the core off) the tire is completely flat, and usually it comes right back up with floor pump. How long did you leave your tires completely flat?

[Brian Campbell]

Thumbs up emoji!

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[Joe Bernard]

Franklyn, it was a few weeks, they weren't on a bike and I started ignoring them. But my digression on this isn't really helpful to Roberta or Leah anyway, neither would be mounting tires on rims. The wheels will come from James or whoever all mounted up with tires and they would simply keep them pumped, so I'm rather spectacularly wasting their time with issues I have with tubeless. Joe Bernard, time waster!

[Max S]

On the dynamo hubs, anyone have experience with the one Riv is selling, compared to Shutter Precision, or Shimano 72 or something in that range? Intended use is general riding and commuting at speeds between 12 and 20 mph, on 650 or 700c wheels with rim brakes, oftentimes in dirt roads, rider + bike + gear weight around 200-220 lbs.

- Max “dyno-curious” in A2

[franklyn]

Can someone confirm my suspicion that the Kaisai hubs Riv is selling are just rebadged SP's?

If they are, SP/Kaisai are significantly lighter and more efficient than Shimano DN-3N7x or 3N80 dynamos. They are pretty close to Schimdt SON hubs in terms of weight and efficiency but are about half the price. SON hubs have some advantages:

1. SON produces a wide body version that makes wheel build stronger because they ate less dished.
2. SON has a version. That allows you to have wires built into your fork legs and therefore looks like there is no wire sticking out from the hub
3. SON hubs can rotate in either directions so the electrode can be either on the drive or line-drive side to allow flexibility I options in where you want to mount your lamp.
4. SON hubs have this nifty pressurized hub chamber to prevent moisture from building up.

That being said, these benefits are marginal for my use cases so all but one of my and my wife's dynamo set ups (and we have 7 bikes between the two of us that have dynamos) use SP hubs.

Franklyn

[Joe Bernard]

One more benefit to SON hubs: they look *smashing* in polished silver. I insist that's what Leah gets and will pay half for it if that's what it takes to push her over the edge! 😁

[Leah Peterson]

Woah. Ok, good luck with your sales.

Best,

Leah

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 8, 2020, at 9:55 PM, 'Abcyclehank' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Leah wants SON dyno hubs apparently on both her current Clem 650B and future Cheviot 700c now.  Everyone is wasting their time proposing otherwise.  This is her dream bikes are her vice.  Don’t try to save her money.  Just tell her what to have Rich build up for her.

And Yes Leah I have wheel sets that would likely perfectly meet your needs.  Since you would not sell me your Benz I will just get around to posting a major  FS post for others benefit.  

Ryan “not salty just 4 miles from fresh watered shark free Lake Michigan” Hankinson

Just ride just swim just enjoy the flowers when they bloom

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 12:02:00 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I’m not fully committing to this yet. Roberta and I get into trouble because we talk on Marco Polo and then we get ideas and then we like each other’s ideas and the next thing we know our wallets are on fire.

So, I am ordering a Cheviot, and I am spending extra $ to build it with light parts. But that bike is a long way off, months, in fact. Meanwhile, Roberta is giving her beloved Appaloosa a makeover and it is getting lots of new parts and she’s having all the fun. And since we’re #Rivsisters and I’m like that little sister who wants what her sister has, I want to explore what it would take to lighten up my Clem L, which is my only bike at present, and which is quite heavy. You’ll have heard me mention this in Joe’s What Is A Cheviot thread. If my Clem could lose a little weight it would be the most perfect bike anyone could dream up. A Susie version of Clems would be just so ideal - someone should tell Riv.

Anyway, if I got aluminum Bosco bars, and new wheels (don’t ask me what kind, how would I know?) would this make my bike feel considerably lighter? I don’t think I can give up my front derailleur because I use it for Killer Hill. And what if I wanted to add dyno while I was at it? Would that negate my weight savings? Also, I’m keeping my racks; I can’t part with those. Maybe I’m not the best candidate for this...

Has anyone built a Clem up with lighter parts? Does it make a big difference? As in, is it worth the money?

Thanks!
Leah

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[Joe Bernard]

See Ken, this is where I just can't get into tubeless. I've owned a couple bikes that cake to me that way, which was dandy because they were already seated and pumped up; but then I needed sealant, a tool to unscrew the valve to add sealant, and tire plugs. Ok so what do I take as tire repair stuff? Whelp, I guess I could take all this in case I need it, plus a tube and tire levers if the trick to getting home after a puncture is to pop a tube in there. Then when it's time to seat a tire I'm going to need a machine because my very good Topeak floor pump isn't good enough, or I'm not good enough at pumping.

So I get the advantages in ride, lightness and puncture resistance of tubeless, but for a Luddite like me who does all his own work all I see is more stuff and more work. I'm not into it.

[Joe Bernard]

Getting back to Adam's question - which kinda got lost in tubeless arguments and peculiar shenanigans - having owned both I would agree that a Cheviot is not *significantly* lighter than a Clem L. I think there's other things going on there with full lugs and a different style - mixte v. step-thru - that make it appealing as an aspirational frame to hang lighter/fancier parts on.

As for tires being a big player in all this, OH yeah. I've run various Schwalbe Marathons and Big Apples and such with all their flat-protection goodies, and they're straight-up boat anchors compared to the Compass/RH Barlow Pass on my Frank Jones. ALL Rivs - Clem, Chev, et al - benefit from nice light tires.

[Kelly]

We have a Dyno hub on our Betty foy 

[DHans]

I like the idea of dyno hubs but portable LED lights are so good and long lasting now I just don’t see the advantage unless you are touring. And isn’t there a slight drag as compared to a standard hub?
Doug

[Ian A]

Doug wrote "I like the idea of dyno hubs but portable LED lights are so good and long lasting now I just don’t see the advantage unless you are touring. And isn’t there a slight drag as compared to a standard hub?"

The drag is in practical terms zero, even with lights on. The modern hubs are incredibly efficient. I'd argue dynamo systems come into their own for commuting and randonneuring, but are also brilliant if you just popped out to buy bread, bumped into friends and found yourself coming home in the wee hours. The lights are on the bike - no need to plan ahead.

There's some awesome battery lights available too, especially from some German manufacturers like B&M and Trelock. Those awesome lights are not cheap though and go a long way to paying for a dynamo set up.

The best system would be good dynamo lighting and a good battery set up. But, if a person could only choose one, my bias would be firmly on the dynamo option.

IanA Alberta Canada

[lconley]

Just an FYI about batteries - Battery technology can be some of the dirtiest technology that there is. Many types of batteries are made of poisons and/or carcinogens - lead and cadmium for example. Many rechargeable batteries use lithium ion batteries. Google "lithium battery environmental impact". Most of the coal that the US burns is to make the electricity that you use to recharge the battery. I'll stick with dyno hubs.

Laing

Delray Beach FL

[Rob Kristoff]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but dynamo can also be used to charge cell phones and other USB devices. Always handy.

Rob

[James / Analog Cycles]

Some clarity might be in order.

Joe's Simworks tires were not tubeless tires.  I know cause I mounted them.  They work for tubeless, but the tolerances are not as tight, so they leak air more.  

I've left many tubeless tires fallow all winter and come back to very minimal pressure but an intact tire seal.  

Pumping a tubeless tire is no different than pumping a normal tire.  If you can do one you can do the other. 

Schmidt hubs, besides the benefits mentioned, also have better bearings (50k mile warranty), a stiffer and stronger axle, thicker flanges, counter sunk spoke holes.  They also CAN have a superior wire to hub connection in the form of a Coaxial adapter.  SP hubs are fine, but if you meet any of the following criteria, consider Schmidt:  Heavy rider, heavy loads, bad roads, big miles, bad weather...Sure looks count too.  But there are practical advantages to a Schmidt hub that are not about finish.   

Having sold both Kasai and SP hubs, I'd say quality seems similar, but the Kasai hub body looks quite different in person.  Maybe the guts are the same.  

-James / Analog Cycles / Tanglefoot Cycles / Discord Components / Fifth Season Canvas.  

[Dexter]

Probably more than 10 years ago Grant had this huge, beat up saddle bag on his commuter and he wrote a really funny piece about all the stuff that accumulated in there.  I can't remember if it was in a Reader or the web site.  There were normal bike things like tools and locks, but enough for five different bikes.  Then there was crazy stuff like a big Channellock he took home to fix his water heater and forgot about, cans of fish and all kinds of other junk you would never need on a bike ride.  I'm sure it weighed more than the bike.  It was tongue in cheek and even he admitted it was ridiculous to haul around so much weight for no reason.   If I was good at finding things on the internet I'd look for it, but I'm not. 

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 7:58:50 AM UTC-7, ted wrote:

Which should be motivating you to do that experiment.

Ride your bike, weigh it, strip off the bags, racks, fenders, kick stand, etc., weigh it again, and ride it again.

Note how many lbs you removed and how different (or similar) the striped bike is to the original configuration.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 7:50:08 AM UTC-7, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

8 pounds, wow! That would feel like a huge difference. 

Nope, I’ll never not enjoy a mixte-style bike. I just cannot give up the freedom of not being constrained by a top tube. YOU should buy a Cheviot. Because having two bikes that are significantly different makes sense! 😜😂 All the cool kid are buying Cheviots.

But wow, 26 pounds would be great! 

In fun,

Leah

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On Apr 8, 2020, at 7:43 AM, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 10:31:22 AM UTC-4, Brian Campbell wrote:

Buy a Roadeo and put upright bars on it. I guarantee your Clem will be relegated to "shopping bike" status afterward. 

D'oh hit post before I finished! I have an AHH (old version) that with fenders,dyno lights weighs 26lbs. I had the same bike built up with racks and bags that I rarely used. When I removed them I save 8lbs and it made a huge difference for me. To me having two bikes that are significantly different makes sense. Having a non-mixte style bike might be something you really enjoy. 

I can tell you from my own experience riding a lighter bike can be more enjoyable. It simply depends on what you are using the bike for.

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[kim young]

Thank you for this conversation.

Tube or tubeless ....that has been my question!

(IMHO)

there’s gonna be infrastructure one way or the other. w tubeless for me i was intimidated due to the learning curve. 

But I do like learning and once I got through some of that, tubeless isn’t any more complicated than learning how to patch, etc. It’s just different. I have bikes running both. 

The thing with tubeless is that IF I get a flat I feel like it’s gonna be more trouble (maybe due to inexperience. )

Yet I don’t get flats with tubeless- (I know it can happen, just that I haven’t yet in a year or more ).

I have lost a lot of air a few times, so that my tubeless go squishy. (I learned the old frame pump won’t  inflate enough. Now I have a lezyne pump I bring w.)

With the tube tires and where I ride, I am flat or slowly leaking - at least once a month.  So there’s gonna be a flat, but I know how to fix it. It’s easier and I‘m ready. I just have to do so way more often. What i have to be prepped for with tubes is the probability that I need to be. 

There’s hardly ever flats with tubeless - so it’s the differential in the maintenance reality of the two systems that I think about. 

(W tubeless I fill up w stans no-flow whenever the tubeless won’t hold their air overnight. I have the m12 makita portable mini compressor. It’s smaller than a 6pack. I use it for the cars and wheelbarrow tires too.

But I don’t Re-fill my tubeless that much more often than my tube tires. )

kim in az

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 10:43 AM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

See Ken, this is where I just can't get into tubeless. I've owned a couple bikes that cake to me that way, which was dandy because they were already seated and pumped up; but then I needed sealant, a tool to unscrew the valve to add sealant, and tire plugs. Ok so what do I take as tire repair stuff? Whelp, I guess I could take all this in case I need it, plus a tube and tire levers if the trick to getting home after a puncture is to pop a tube in there. Then when it's time to seat a tire I'm going to need a machine because my very good Topeak floor pump isn't good enough, or I'm not good enough at pumping.

So I get the advantages in ride, lightness and puncture resistance of tubeless, but for a Luddite like me who does all his own work all I see is more stuff and more work. I'm not into it.

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[Leah Peterson]

I’m new to tubeless, but today I signed off with James at Analog to try it out. Get ready to see my Clem all jazzed up with Analog’s light wheels and vivid color schemes. It will be wild!

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On Apr 10, 2020, at 7:42 AM, kim young <kimyo...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Dorothy C]

Re: dynamos. I got one on my Cheviot as it was the only 650b wheelset Riv had in at the time, and I have found a big benefit for me is that 1. I don’t have to remember to turn lights on and off, so they never discharge if forgotten and 2. when I go grocery shopping and park the bike I don’t have to detach and reattach the lights to prevent theft.
In fact those were such big plusses, I had the local bike shop rebuild my Alex rim on my Appaloosa to have a dynamo too

[ted]

I had a similar experience. I was commuting on my simple one with battery lights and thought that was just fine. I saw a pair of used single speed wheels with a son hub for sale on the list here and decided to give the dynamo thing a try. I found I appreciated the set it and forget it nature of the dynamo system way more than I would ever have guessed. Maybe I'm just extra lazy but once freed of dealing with batteries I'd not go back.

[David Bivins]

I have a dynamo on my cargo bike (Tern/Xtracycle Cargo Node) and it's the best thing ever. I live on the 4th floor, and if I've forgotten my lights for my Clem (if I had to charge them) after I've gotten it out of my basement and brought it outside, etc. I then have to lock up, go back upstairs, etc.

And no, there's not an extra outlet in the shared basement for me to keep charged lights. 

Someday!

David

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[DHans]

I have to admit, many of the points here I hadn't thought much about regarding dyno lights. Dorothy, you experience is particularly helpful in that you weren't switching to dyno lighting except that a wheel you bought included it. And, you found it useful and have since bought other wheel sets with dyno. I think based on all of this feedback maybe I don't know what I'm missing out on and should give it a go. Thanks all.

Doug

[ted]

re: The thing with tubeless is that IF I get a flat I feel like it’s gonna be more trouble (maybe due to inexperience. )

I had similar concerns. After a bit of googling i've opted for carrying a repair kit with: one tube, two tire levers, a few tire plugs, and a plug tool.

To be more ready for anything bring some gel super glue and gorilla tape for patching side wall cuts. I've read just laying the bike on its side and patching sidewalls from the outside (which alleviates messing with the beads) works well.

For now I'm packing two co2 cartridges and a mini inflater but I think I may go back to a full sized frame pump.

To date (~ half a year) i've never needed to deal with any of that on the road/trail.

kim in az

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[Eric Norris]

One alternative to a standard donohue setup is an external generator. Velogical, a Germany company, came out a few years ago with a modern interpretation of the old bottle generators used in years past:

http://www.velogical-engineering.com 

I’ve been using one for about six months now, and I’m totally sold. I use mine to power two LED headlights and one LED taillight, and it works perfectly. Virtually silent, virtually drag-free … and it works with your current wheels! No need for a new front wheel.

Cost is less than a top-quality dyno hub (e.g., Schmidt) but far less than the total cost of a new wheel (hub + rim + spokes + wheel building). 

I watched their YouTube installation video and was able to install mine in less than an hour. As I noted, no problems whatsoever in six months of use.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

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[DHans]

Wow, that is way cool, Eric. German engineering is so good and innovative,

Doug

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[Leah Peterson]

Ooh, dynamo. I forgot to add that I got that with my wheel set, too! New wheels new lights who dis?!?

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 10, 2020, at 10:21 AM, DHans <dhansf...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[DHans]

Leah, you seem to be getting all the cool mods on your bike. I'm a lil envious.  Who knew bikes could be so customized? 

Doug 

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[ted]

Son wide flange? Wide flange -> shorter axel stubs-> better aesthetics.

[Corwin]

Hi Leah -

I'm not here to quibble with your decision/preference to sell the Betz for a Cheviot. I do seriously doubt that any Betz is incompatible with dyno. I have several bikes with dyno - most of them from Rivendell. The only way the Betz could be incompatible with dyno is if you turned it into a unicycle. I will grant you that converting the Betz to dyno would require a new front wheel. But that does not constitute incompatibility in my opinion.

Thanks,

Corwin

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 7:51:02 PM UTC-7, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

Oh Ryan, so salty. I didn’t know you had 650B - I did know you had 700 c. I am thinking of getting dyno though...would need to have dyno compatibility...do you have those in your basement somewhere too? 😜

I’m not good at pulling parts off one bike and installing on another! It was better to just sell the whole Betz. Don’t you think I deserve some new wheels? Betz is 8 year old now. And not compatible with dyno.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 8, 2020, at 7:13 PM, 'Abcyclehank' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Leah,

I have a wonderful 650B velocity wheel set you may try.  Also have g-ones tires and Hetras you could try.  A different size rim will require an adjustment to brake pads.

It does frustrate me slightly that you ignore my advice about wheel and tire improvement on ride and weight until 4-5 others state the same claim.  Oh well what do I know.

For the record the least expensive option would have been to simply swap parts wheels etc from the Betz build over to the Clem to see which modifications were worth the build.

However since you boxed up the bike before trying the other wheels and had no mechanic to help you with the swap and now the Benz has a new owner; therefore shopping for and buying new parts (wheels and tires 1st) buying used parts or borrowing some from me is really your only options.

Sincerely,

Ryan Hankinson

West Michigan

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 12:02:00 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I’m not fully committing to this yet. Roberta and I get into trouble because we talk on Marco Polo and then we get ideas and then we like each other’s ideas and the next thing we know our wallets are on fire.

So, I am ordering a Cheviot, and I am spending extra $ to build it with light parts. But that bike is a long way off, months, in fact. Meanwhile, Roberta is giving her beloved Appaloosa a makeover and it is getting lots of new parts and she’s having all the fun. And since we’re #Rivsisters and I’m like that little sister who wants what her sister has, I want to explore what it would take to lighten up my Clem L, which is my only bike at present, and which is quite heavy. You’ll have heard me mention this in Joe’s What Is A Cheviot thread. If my Clem could lose a little weight it would be the most perfect bike anyone could dream up. A Susie version of Clems would be just so ideal - someone should tell Riv.

Anyway, if I got aluminum Bosco bars, and new wheels (don’t ask me what kind, how would I know?) would this make my bike feel considerably lighter? I don’t think I can give up my front derailleur because I use it for Killer Hill. And what if I wanted to add dyno while I was at it? Would that negate my weight savings? Also, I’m keeping my racks; I can’t part with those. Maybe I’m not the best candidate for this...

Has anyone built a Clem up with lighter parts? Does it make a big difference? As in, is it worth the money?

Thanks!
Leah

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[Leah Peterson]

Doug, who would have guessed? I’m a fairly conservative spender; I don’t color my hair or get my nails done or spend time at the spa (but I will spend good money on great shoes). I have historically made only small, inexpensive changes on my bikes. Big ticket items for me would be Nitto racks. I’ve always ridden stock wheels and with the exception of my Big Bens, I’ve always ridden stock tires. My Rivendells were such a noticeable improvement from Walmart that I was sublimely happy. What would I possibly change?

But, the more you learn the more aware you become of options. You discover you have *preferences.* You develop wish lists. 

I have long wanted dyno. I started riding at night this year and found that it really, really did something for me. I would listen to music and I would sing. On my bike. Who knows who heard? There is likely a Nextdoor thread wondering about my state of mind somewhere. I don’t care. All the things I hadn’t made time to process or feelings I didn’t let myself feel would be processed on those night rides. Sometimes my sense of humor would come alive and I would make goofy videos and set them to music (you’ve seen them on Instagram). I came to really depend on those rides. 

But I had these battery lights. The rechargeable Cygolite is just the worst. It would start flickering, threatening to die on me after only 45 minutes of use. I hate it. Plus, it’s taking up real estate on my already crowded bars. I will say my rack light that is battery operated is ok, but it’s cheap plastic and I’m pretty sure if I bump it into anything it’s going to shatter. Well, the thrill of those night rides was being impeded by the fear of running out of battery and being stranded without light. Not the end of the world on my well-lit MUP up Killer Hill but a total deal breaker for when I’m in the bike lane on the street.

I will never worry about running out of light again. And that’s really something.

[Leah Peterson]

Hi Corwin,

Sigh. I will explain this again. 

*I don’t like how the Betty rides compared to the longer chainstay bikes. A Cheviot has longer chainstays. 

* I find the decals/headbadge/name of the Cheviot superior. I like it better.

* I love Rivendell mixtes and want a Cheviot to go along with my Clem.

*I don’t mean that the Betty can’t take dyno. I mean I would need new wheels. Ryan suggested I put the Betty wheels on my Clem. I don’t want the Betty wheels because they don’t take dyno.

Leah

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On Apr 10, 2020, at 10:58 AM, Corwin <ern...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[DHans]

I love that video, it's so funny. I'm guessing you could entertain yourself well as a child. I had one of each, my younger son would play and become his toys...loved hearing him voice his action figures. My older son would look at me like, what are we doing next? Ha

I have rarely ridden at night but I think it would be so cool!! I'm getting dyno-fever.

Doug

[Joe Bernard]

"Leah, you seem to be getting all the cool mods on your bike. I'm a lil envious. Who knew bikes could be so customized?"

Right?? I suspect her example is about to make the build on my soon-to-be-here-hopefully custom MUCH more expensive. I have a basic silver wheelset planned for it and here's how that's going to go: "Wow, Leah's wheels from James with all the colors sure are pretty. My gray w/red frame needs red hubs!" 💸💸💸

[ted]

And red spoke nipples too

[Joe Bernard]

"And red spoke nipples too."

Absolutely!

[Corwin]

Hi Leah -

Thanks for the explanation. I think life's too short to spend time riding a bike that's less than perfect - even if it's just because you found a better bike.

And having used dyno lighs for over a decade, I heartily applaud you for making the switch. I would never go back given the convenience and reliability.

Enjoy your Cheviot!

Namaste,

Corwin

Leah

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[masmojo]

Leah, I guess lighten up applies in a couple ways and I confess to just seeing this thread this morning so a little late to the party.

Some good suggestions here. I am sure the new wheels will be epic.
Maybe I missed it, but what did you end up getting?
The Clem is heavy, but you don't have many places to save weight outside of the aforementioned wheels/tires, especially when you consider that certain components are not negotiable (like the seat)
That said, weight that serves no function and can be permanently removed will be a long term benefit. My Clementine was built up from a frame so I naturally built it up with lighter weight parts.
Aside from the wheels/tires the thing I would look at is the seatpost. I know the Clem is a different diameter, but the seat post that came with my Clementine was a boat anchor AND really long. I got as light a post as I could and then chopped about 4 or 5 inches of the excess length off. You could lose close to half a pound this way!

Listening to your comments it seems you might not fully understand:
A) Dynamos & B) 1X gearing setups (that's cool, we're all learning)

Dynamo fitment is strictly a function of matching the number of spoke holes in the hub to the number of spoke holes in the rim. If you've got 32 hole rims all you need is a 32 hole hub. Simple. Many times if I am building a budget bike I'll buy budget wheels off the interwebs, a Dynamo hub and replace the front hub myself.

Regarding, 1X going to 1X won't really have a big effect on your ability to climb big hills. The biggest thing you will notice is you NEVER have to worry about "trimming" the front derailleur to stop it from rubbing. There are rare exceptions, but I pretty much only build 1x bikes now. Because Rivendells are pretty much standard 135mm spacing it does sort of limit you to a maximum of 10 gears, but that's probably equivalent to what you had with a 2X or 3X set up you might have had before. Those result in a lot of ratios that are basically duplicates anywayz.

Regarding tubeless, well things do get a bit more fuzzy with tubeless, but as I am assuming you don't change your own flats, it'll only be a plus for you.
I've been converting to tubeless over the last few months for several reasons:
A) Most new tires are made to be run tubeless.
B) Most new rims are optimized for tubeless (this is especially true of carbon rims, noting that's a nonstarter on a Rivendell)
C) Unless you are running a shallow box section rim 650b tubes with a long enough valve stem are almost non-existent. Even if you can find a tube, mounting it can be next to impossible.

Mounting tubeless is part magic and part technique & some mount easier than others, but by the 4th or 5th one I had it figured out & with all the cacti in you neck of the woods I think you would definitely benefit from the light weight & ability to run lower pressure. I only recommend tubeless for bikes that will be ridden constantly & not sit for long periods of time or for people the swap tires a lot.

Lightweight wheels with tubeless tires & dynamo hubs!? You won't likely believe how good it'll be! 😉