Friction Shifting Issues with my Old Clem

[Vincent Tamer]

I have an on going issue with my friction shifting setup on my 2016 complete Clem.

I believe this will be my third cassette replacement now. Each time the two smallest cogs are damaged/stripped for some reason, so that when I pedal there is some crunching & ghost shifting. I cannot pedal with full force on the first two gears.

I’ve had issues with this since day one and I have a feeling it is due to the 2016 complete clem’s shifting setup even though I’ve had it adjusted and have explained to two different bike technicians.

The shifter setup is odd, Riv even commented on how it was a little strange in the Clem intro Pdf that was floating around for the longest time (cannot find it now). I'm hoping someone knows what I'm talking about!

These suntour shifters are set up in a reverse position and that they have some kind of ratcheting mech in them. The clicks don’t always coincide with a shift and maybe that has created some bad friction shifting form on my part. Outside of that I’m at a loss for why I am having issues with stripped cogs. 

I’m considering switching to an indexed set up even though I don’t want to but before I do, does any one have any wisdom they can shed on this situation? Thank you!

Pics are attached, of the whole bike (for fun) and of the shifter. I'll grab some shots of the gears as well when I can.

[Garth]

Vinvent, the Sunrace shifters ratcheting is there only as part of the tension holding friction mechanism. It was in use well before indexed came to be in use. That indexed shifters happen to click once per shift change in unrelated to the ratcheting clicks of the friction variety. I've not used those shifters in particular, I've only used Sun Tour Power ratchets and other pure friction shifters. My best "advice" for those Sunrace shifters is to forget about the clicks altogther as they are not designed for one click per gear shift. Just adjust the lever by feel and sound of the cogs. If you've never used friction shifters before this I can see how the clicking may appear confusing if mistaking the friction ratcheting sound with indexing clicks, but they're two distinctly different mechanisms. Some readers here have ended up replacing those particular Sunrace shifters with a more normal ratcheting friction shifters on the outside, like the Riv Silver or Microshift or vintage Sun Tour. 

The grinding and wear of the two smallest cogs appears from varying angles of the chain as you use a given ring with a given cog. It's called "cross-chaining". For example, riding in the smallest ring of triple crank like yours and the smallest cogs of the cassette is asking the chain to flex laterally to angles past their limits of efficiency. Even the middle ring and smallest two cogs has a fair amount of friction from the angles, depending on the chainline(how far the center-rings are from the center of the seat tube). Hence, you'll hear and feel what you describe and will wear the cogs down faster than usual if consistently ridden that way. 

Here's cross-chaing explained : https://wickwerks.com/support/crosschaining/

[Joe Bernard]

Those SunRace shifters force indexing that doesn't line up with all the cogs. Technically you can trim them to work as a friction shifter but it'll drive you crazy, you need Silver thumbies. 

[Garth]

Additionally, if you're riding in the small/inner ring and smallest 2-3 cogs, don't !  Even the middle isn't optimal with a 11t/12t/13t, but without an outer ring, you have no other option. 

Yeah I do remember when those Sunrace came out the confusing description of them, and it's still clear as mud on the Riv website. If I could feel the mechanism I'd understand where they're coming from, but I'm not buying any to find out ! They could have just said "the clicks are not be associated with a given gear shift". Or was it the shifters even had indentations in the mechanism, making the necessary minute adjustments frustrating ? (for users like Joe or others who have used them ). 

[Johnny Alien]

I'm not sure I would agree that they "force indexing". I've used them on my Clem for awhile now and while its weird it works with no issues. At least I personally have not had issues and it sounds like Grant has been issue free with more miles than me.

I do agree that Riv's details do make it more confusing then it needs to be. Ignore the clicks would be a much better description. My tech even kept telling me how weird the index shifters were. I was like...they are friction not index and he was like...no those index. :)

[Vincent Tamer]

Thank you guys. The suntour shifters don't bug me so much as I may have made it out in the initial post. I was just not sure if they were causing this wear on the rear cassette or not. I only have a double crank and rarely cross chain. Usually I'm on the largest toothed chainring on the front which aligns with the smaller two on the rear. However there may have been an instance recently where I cross chained that did the damage. I'll have to take a closer look but this info helps. Thanks!

[Bill Schairer]

I'd have someone check the derailleur hanger adjustment.

How many miles are you getting on each cassette?  How about chains?  Smallest cogs will wear the fastest.  If you are riding a lot on the big ring and the smallest cogs, maybe get a bigger big ring that will put your usual pedaling in the middle of the cassette?

Bill S

San Diego

[Wesley]

Sounds like an issue my wife had about a year ago. We tried a lot of random ideas, like snugging up the cassette lockring (on the theory that the cogs were loose and wobbling a bit). In the end, a new chain made the shifting work perfectly again. Good luck.

-Wes

On Wednesday, March 13, 2024 at 8:40:52 PM UTC-7 Vincent Tamer wrote:

[Michael Morrissey]

Hi Vincent,

That Clem is beautiful, but your shifting issue sounds frustrating. Are you running a 9-speed cassette in the back? I had the indexing Sunrace thumbie on my Rivendell and performance felt just ok. My vintage Suntour thumb shifters from 1983 were better, and now I have a Riv silver thumbie on and it's also better. I suggest you buy one Riv silver thumbie and try that out. I clearly remember the PDF saying the stock shifters clicked but did not index. 

Also, consider that the Altus rear derailleur is a $13 part. Maybe it's just not up for your rough rides on the train tracks? I have a silver thumbie with the SRAM GX 10 speed rear derailleur shifting a 9-speed cassette, and it works perfectly. I highly recommend it. It has a clutch on it so you can forget about chain slap and dropped chains. It's available for nice prices because the trend in mountain bikes is now 12 speeds. (A matching 10 speed click shifter is also available for cheap, but I haven't tried it.)

I also have a narrow-wide chainring on the front. Perhaps you should consider one. How often are you using the biggest chainring? For me it's never (I took it off) because live in a city and commute so I rarely get up to speed for longer than 4 minutes. Are you regularly cruising above 15 MPH? If not, go lower with your gearing. Wolf-Tooth and Stridsland both have excellent narrow-wide chainrings that will fit your cranks. Fewer moving parts is a nice thing for your bike. 

I hope this helps. Happy riding. 

Michael 

On Wednesday, March 13, 2024 at 11:40:52 PM UTC-4 Vincent Tamer wrote:

[Steve]

Vincent, Garth's comments regarding cross chaining sure do seem like a likely explanation for the accelerated wear on the outer two cogs.  Looking at your picture of the bike, it appears the cranks are mounted on a fairly narrow bottom bracket spindle. If the spindle is narrow enough to move your chain line inboard - further away from the smaller cogs on the rear end - that would likely accelerate wear on those cogs. Frequent cross chaining from the inner chain ring to those smaller cogs would amplify the effect. Might be worth your trouble to check the chain line as you try to solve the riddle. 

Steve

[Vincent Tamer]

Thank you all for the advice!

[Vincent Tamer]

Yes it is a 9. I've wanted to switch to Silver Thumbies so that might just be the next upgrade. Good point about the derailleur too, that's something to consider.

[DavidP]

I'm using that $13 derailleur on a couple of bikes that see regular off-road use (including my Platypus) and it just works. I have some bikes with fancier RDs but will continue to use it on future builds where it fits.

The symptom of working fine in all but a couple of cogs always makes me think about the hanger alignment (as mentioned by Bill), but it's possible the the derailleur may have been damaged too.

Starting with the shifters isn't a bad idea as they will be a notable upgrade from the current shifters even if they aren't the cause of your problem.

-Dave