Let’s say I made my Clem into a “gravel bike”

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I love pavement. But I’ve been on two gravel rides in the last month and I rode a Platy either time and it wasn’t my favorite for that bike. But, I have my old 2019 52 cm Clem L, and it doesn’t have a dedicated purpose right now and shouldn’t that be the bike for rough and tough stuff like gravel? Also, my Platys are prisses. 

BUT. I’m not good at gravel. I have no idea what the kids are doing these days. I have questions, and you have answers.

1. Can I keep my VO wavy fenders on a gravel bike? Here’s what I have, and they say up to 50 mm tire will fit:

2. Slick or knobby? I can’t even get a straight answer on this. Which is better? If it matters about the rider, this will be for a rider with a healthy fear of crashing.

3. How wide? I have 42s on my bikes now and I don’t feel like they are wide enough. 

4. Tubeless or no? These wheels are tubeless-compatible but I put a tube in them because I wasn’t riding enough to keep the sealant circulating. But that can be changed right quick.

Here is my Clem in its current configuration, and yes, I know the Backabikes gotta go. 

Thanks for your help!

Leah 

[J G]

I used to ride the Almanzo 100 annually and introduced many people to gravel over the past decade or so.

The Clem should be a great bike so long as you are committed to being upright.  For big rides drops are nice to get down and out of the wind, but not a need just to enjoy being on roads less travelled.  Long wheelbase and stability of the Clem is great.

I have not ridden gravel much with fenders but based on your tires comments, the fender size seems suitable.

I like small knobs and fast tires.  Rene Herse or Schwalbe Racing Ralphs as examples of what I am running etc.

If you are new to gravel or off road and 42 is not feeling confident, 48 seems like a great spot for you and still in your fender range.

I still ride tubes for road and gravel.  I only ride tubeless for mountain biking.  No wrong answer really IMHO.

Enjoy the ride and shiny side up...

[Luke Hendrickson]

YMMV here, but this is my current set up:

I have mtb bars (bullmoose) with comfy grips (Oury) and easy-to-access shifters along with levers set up for two-finger braking. Admittedly, my Riv is more mtb than gravel what with 2.3” downhill 29” tires, but I like a plush ride. Tire pressure will matter more than tread most times except for in mud. I’ve run fenders on gravel and don’t mind the pinging of rocks, however I truly suck with setting up fenders and so rubbing always occurs.

I run Conti Mountain Kings now (I switched from the Minions in this photo shortly after taking it), but I would rec Schwalbe G-One Allrounds over most anything, especially those in the Evolution compound. I ride a lot of road to my rides and love how fast they feel. 

Lastly, I run tubes mostly cause tires this wide don’t pinch flat and the tires I run trend tougher rather than more supple. I also need worry less about those sidewall lacerations I was so plagued by with RH rubber. I run 35-40psi with 2.3” tires since I weigh 190lbs. and my bike loaded as you see above is about 50lbs.

Again, this is my personal fave set up and how I do things having also ridden cx bikes with 38mm knobbies set up tubeless with drop bars all over gnarly stuff in Marin.

[DavidP]

Most of my favorite rides tend to mix pavement, gravel, and trails (where I am we have lots of great country roads and trails of various difficulty but not many long stretches of gravel). My primary "gravel" bikes are a Soma Wolverine and my Platypus. (In reality, most of my bikes end up being used on multi-surface rides and are thus "gravel" bikes.) The Wolverine has 650x48s with VO Wavy fenders, the Platypus has 700x50s with VO Fluted fenders.

Gravel King SKs are pretty versatile and Rene Herse knobbies are great too. Slick (file tread) tires like the Gravel King slick or RH non-knobbies are also fine on gravel. 
If you think you might also ride your Clem on light trails then some kind of knobs up front can help if you encounter some mud. My Wolverine has a slick (Pari-moto) rear with RH knobby front (the knobby front makes a difference on muddy corners), while the Platy has Gravel King SKs front and back (enough traction for light mud) - both are fine for the types of trails I take them on.

Tubeless or not depends on how often you tend to get flats (some locations are worse than others) and if you ride the bike enough to keep up with the maintenance. The Wolverine is tubeless in the rear (where I tend to get more flats), the Platypus is tubed on Cliffhangers (mostly because I'm getting more reluctant to add to my tubeless maintenance burden).

If you find yourself riding into a strong wind, the flats of that Bosco can provide a more aerodynamic position.

[Mackenzy Albright]

I've fit up to 2.3 tires with flat 65's on my Clementine. The real factor is being able to get your fender high enough for vertical clearance. especially with V'brakes. Different V'brakes are different arm lengths. Knobby tires really throw a lot of rocks and they ping and grind on the inside of the fenders. It can be a bit annoying on long rides, in my opinion.

My favorite setup for gravel was Rene herse Switchback Hill with fenders on my Romanceur. Tubeless was nice because lower pressure smooth tires grip well, bounce less, and throw rocks less. They are terrible in greasy mud (clay) however. So may be a bit regional. They work great on the west coast. Less well in the prairies. 

I'll probably eventually put a smooth rear tire and slightly knobby front tire on my Clementine. I liked tubeless but I prefer being able to do tire maintenance myself vs a shop since I don't have an air compressor.

[George Schick]

The go-to tire for a lot of folks riding gravel these days is a "hybrid".  Personally, I switched from my regular 32mm road tires to 35mm Bontrager Connection Hybrids for riding on the limestone tailing trails around my neck of the woods once they dry out and become loose and dusty gravel (as they have this year, way too early thanks to regional droughts).  But you can get "hybrid" tires in various widths so that's what I'd recommend installing on your bike if it's being ridden on gravel. 

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 3:15:22 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

[Nick Payne]

Mudguards are OK until you encounter mud :-), and then they jam up. On this ride I was having to stop every five or ten minutes to clear the mud out from between the tyre and mudguard, as it was making forward motion more and more difficult. OTOH, I stayed relatively clean, whereas the friend I was riding with, who wasn't running mudguards, wound up with about an inch thickness of mud caked over his legs and back.

Nick Payne

[Nick A.]

I ran the Soma Cazadero 700c/50mm last winter/spring and loved them. I see Soma also makes 650x50. Might be worth looking into, especially if you're concerned about the cornering. As for the fenders, I'd just see if they can fit the tires you want, and bail on 'em if they won't fit.

[Richard Rose]

I love my Clem L 52 on gravel! My favorite tire so far has been the Simworks Homage in 27.5” x 55. I had and liked Gravelking SS which were very nice set up tubeless but were too fragile resulting in a large percentage of the bike being covered in the muck. I am quite happy now running tubes with the Homage tires. It’s a great all around tire, reasonably quiet on pavement & grippy enough for mild singletrack. It’s a true 55mm tire on Cliffhangers so not sure about the fenders. I sure there are faster options but comfort is outstanding & more important to me than speed.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 3, 2023, at 8:51 PM, Nick A. <thetaper...@gmail.com> wrote:

I ran the Soma Cazadero 700c/50mm last winter/spring and loved them. I see Soma also makes 650x50. Might be worth looking into, especially if you're concerned about the cornering. As for the fenders, I'd just see if they can fit the tires you want, and bail on 'em if they won't fit.

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[Max Faingezicht]

I highly recommend Thunderburts for gravel - I use them (2.1”) on my hunqa tubeless and with tubes on the Atlantis.

Great tire, fast and quiet on the road, knobby for the trails. Best of both worlds

Max

On Jun 3, 2023, at 9:17 PM, Richard Rose <rmro...@gmail.com> wrote:

I love my Clem L 52 on gravel! My favorite tire so far has been the Simworks Homage in 27.5” x 55. I had and liked Gravelking SS which were very nice set up tubeless but were too fragile resulting in a large percentage of the bike being covered in the muck. I am quite happy now running tubes with the Homage tires. It’s a great all around tire, reasonably quiet on pavement & grippy enough for mild singletrack. It’s a true 55mm tire on Cliffhangers so not sure about the fenders. I sure there are faster options but comfort is outstanding & more important to me than speed.

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[Joe Bernard]

I'm Team Knobbies but I don't know anything, including what y'all mean when you say a surface is gravel. I put something called Compass (Rene Herse) Pumpkin Ridges on recently and went riding on dirt and small rocks, it was fun. I didn't even crash! 

[Brian Turner]

Gravel is my favorite surface to ride on, and I would probably be content to ride exclusively on it, if I lived in an area with an extensive network of gravel roads. This is also one reason why I love riding rail trails so much, because so many of them consist of sone type of crushed gravel.

My current favorite gravel tires are the RH knobbies, and I like fatter tires, so I’m running Juniper Ridge 48s. The amount of grip and low rolling resistance are a perfect combo for me. I am getting ready to experiment with some RH gravel slicks I picked up from a fellow RBWOB user. I would probably only run fenders in combination with smoother gravel tires due to the tendency for knobbies to pick up more debris and potentially suck stuff up into the fenders.

As a matter of personal aesthetics, I think the hillibikes and long chainstay models look best with fatter tires to help fill in those big gaps in the frame. I think you could do really well with some 48s + fenders on your Clem, or go with some even bigger gravel knobbies in a 2” or 2.3”. Lots of great fat tire gravel options out there.

On Jun 4, 2023, at 3:23 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm Team Knobbies but I don't know anything, including what y'all mean when you say a surface is gravel. I put something called Compass (Rene Herse) Pumpkin Ridges on recently and went riding on dirt and small rocks, it was fun. I didn't even crash! 

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[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Wow, I have read these responses 3 times through. Lots of suggestions and information here, and I thank you. I had initially thought gravel riding required knobbies but it appears that is untrue - you can run slicks. I don’t like the idea of knobbies throwing rocks, so I’m heading away from that option. I think I will look for 48 or 50 mm tires, since that’s what the fenders can handle. I will never ride through mud. I’m not going all hard-core over here! Undecided on tubeless, still. The Clem doesn’t get a lot of miles, but I also have never fixed a flat and would like to avoid that…

I have to figure out which brand of tire to actually order. Which is going to be quite the task, I think. I had no idea there was this much variety. I was rather hoping it would be “Oh, you want to ride some gravel? These tires are the gold standard. Everyone loves these.”

If you have more to say, I’m still listening over here!

Leah

[Brian Turner]

Leah, have you enjoyed your Ultradynamico Cava tires on your Platy? They just released a 27.5 x 2.2 version of the Cava that might be worth looking into for your Clem. Should give you much of the same ride quality but in a fatter, cushier package for gravel.

On Jun 4, 2023, at 7:55 AM, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wow, I have read these responses 3 times through. Lots of suggestions and information here, and I thank you. I had initially thought gravel riding required knobbies but it appears that is untrue - you can run slicks. I don’t like the idea of knobbies throwing rocks, so I’m heading away from that option. I think I will look for 48 or 50 mm tires, since that’s what the fenders can handle. I will never ride through mud. I’m not going all hard-core over here! Undecided on tubeless, still. The Clem doesn’t get a lot of miles, but I also have never fixed a flat and would like to avoid that…

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[Richard Rose]

I was thinking the exact same thing. Story; I was running Gravelking SS  27.5 x 1.9” on the Clem set up tubeless. I did not realize these were considered “supple” tires - not unlike Ultradynamico tires. I experienced a tire rupture - the casing kind of “blew up” from the inside, resulting in a huge bubble on the outside. So I was talking to Ultradynamico about this and their tires. Surprisingly they steered me away from their tires, suggesting my riding might not be suited to their very supple tires. BTW, I weigh 170lbs. In any event I chose to replace the GK tires with the Simworks Homage & used tubes. I find these tires to still be very supple & so far very durable with tubes. They are as quiet on pavement as RH knobbies I had on another bike. My gravel riding is not on really chunky stuff. On the smallish gravel and smooth dirt roads I ride almost daily the subtle tread pattern on the Homage has been perfect. I guess my suggestion here is that ultra supple tires might not be the most durable?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 4, 2023, at 9:58 AM, Brian Turner <brok...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[mm]

I went through a few tire/wheel setups on my clem L and I think my favorite has been gravelking sk+ in 43mm width (700c), tubeless on velocity cliffhanger rims. It made the bike feel fast and was wide enough for mixed conditions and straight up underbiking on trails.

I think the most worthwhile change has been going to a short stem, flat bar combo. It really makes the bike way more capable and *faster*; instead of being upright you can kinda tuck in not unlike a time trialist (?) Your mileage may very but I think you should consider that change for a faster/performance oriented feel.

Simworks fun bar 3 + jim stem;

[Marc Irwin]

If you want a larger footprint on that bike for gravel, I'd recommend Schwalbe Big Ben tires and add Flat Attack sealant to the tubes.  Don't over think it.

Marc

[Slin]

@Leah - Have you tried taking the Clem out on gravel rides, as-is? I've also got a Clem and Platy, so I'm curious to hear how you experience them differently on the same trails.

S

[J. Laing Conley, PE, LEED AP]

1. Remove bags and fenders. 

2. Install Rene Herse 27.5 x 2.2 Umtanum Ridge tires with Endurance casings with tubes. 

3. Ride. 

Fenders and off-pavement do not play well together in my way of thinking. If you insist on fenders, use non-knobby tires (27.5 x 48 Switchback Hills with Endurance casing or 650B x 50 Big Bens) instead of knobbies. 

Laing

Who drank the “Compass” Kool Aid before it became Rene Herse Kool Aid, but never tried the tubeless stuff. 

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On Jun 4, 2023, at 1:32 PM, Slin <sli...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joe Bernard]

What I have learned from this thread: Picking tires is like picking saddles. It's different for everybody! 

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 1:15:22 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

[Ted Durant]

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 3:15:22 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I love pavement. But I’ve been on two gravel rides in the last month and I rode a Platy either time and it wasn’t my favorite for that bike. But, I have my old 2019 52 cm Clem L, and it doesn’t have a dedicated purpose right now and shouldn’t that be the bike for rough and tough stuff like gravel?

It will be as great for "gravel" as it is for any other surface!

1. Can I keep my VO wavy fenders on a gravel bike?

 Yes,  but do you really want to? They'll limit your tire choice and it'll sound like you're shaking a soda (pop) can (let's please not pollute the thread with that discussion) full of rocks all ride long. As others have graphically shown, if it's muddy, you'll just pack the mudguards full of mud. That said, I run fenders on my Breadwinner, because most of my riding is on pavement and, until recently, the roads were frequently wet. If was planning a longer off-road ride, I'd ditch the fenders.

2. Slick or knobby? I can’t even get a straight answer on this. Which is better? If it matters about the rider, this will be for a rider with a healthy fear of crashing.

Part of this comes down to what you mean by "gravel". Tread only starts to make a difference when you're in soft stuff, where the edges of the knobs can bite into something to provide more acceleration/deceleration/cornering force. When you take a turn on gravel you're going to have much less traction than on pavement, regardless of the tires. Those pesky little gravel bits are easy to shove aside, and hooking the edge of a knob on them just shoves them harder.

 

3. How wide? I have 42s on my bikes now and I don’t feel like they are wide enough. 

Again, this may be a function of what type of "gravel" you're on. For the crushed limestone trails of Wisconsin at reasonable speeds, 42 is plenty. If you get into softer, sandy trails, though, or you love to fly through hairpin turns, bigger is always better. I ride 48s on my Breadwinner and never feel like I have "too much tire" under me.  Unlike knobs, wider tires provide a genuine cornering advantage on loose surfaces, as they spread the force across lots more of those pesky little gravel bits, putting less force on each bit.

 

4. Tubeless or no? These wheels are tubeless-compatible but I put a tube in them because I wasn’t riding enough to keep the sealant circulating. But that can be changed right quick.

I don't think gravel vs pavement enters into that decision, unless by "gravel" you mean bouncing over baby heads at high speed. One of the big benefits is eliminating pinch flats, which generally result from hitting fairly large chunks of something at low pressure. But you can do that in a Wisconsin pot hole on pavement, too. I'm running tubeless on my Breadwinner, but I'm not convinced it's an improvement, especially if you're not riding the bike frequently. I'm careful about storing my bike, but I still get sealant drying in the valve stems, which makes it very hard to put in air.

Tires: what an embarrassment of riches we have today, compared to even 10 years ago. The revelation for me was Kirk Pacenti's Pari-Motos, at 650x38B, which caused me to audibly gasp on the first downhill. Since then, Grand Bois, Compass/Rene Herse, Ultradynamico... all of them have pretty much the same thing going: super supple tires made by Panaracer in Japan.  Start with size, then narrow it down by tread, casing strength, color, and price. I'm a dedicated Rene Herse tire fan. The Gravel Kings I put on my Sam #1 are outstanding, too. I'm looking forward to trying Ultradynamicos on my Sam #2. 

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Eric Marth]

I heartily agree with Laing, above :) 

Strip it down, go big with the tires. Looks like you're racked and fendered on your other bikes. 

I think Grant's emphasis on racks, bag and fenders is a suggestion for having one hyper-practical bike that can handle many situations. When you have three Rivendells you can start setting them up to each address a different riding situation. 

[Eric Marth]

Oh and tubes vs. tubeless: I like tubes, straightforward, easy to learn to install a tube and mount a tire. Getting set up for tubeless is a bit more involved, more specialized tools are required (cored valve stems and an air tank and/or compressor). I recall you were running tubeless on another bike, Leah, but a flat had you heading to the bike shop. Being able to fix a flat in the field is critical stuff, you can do it! 

Tubeless are great for running supper low pressures or in areas with lots of thorns or other aggressive plants like cactus or goatheads (I'm thinking of the west and southwest). 

Number one on Grant's list of five bicycle basics? Patching an inner tube and installing a new tire. 

From catalog no. 20: http://notfine.com/rivendell/Catalogs/Rivendell%20Catalog%202014%20No%2020.pdf

[Steve]

A contrarian POV from a committed Fender Freak who says if you want fenders - Go For It!

I've been riding gravel fire roads and moderate single track in the Southern Appalachians on bikes with aluminum fenders for several years now and would be loath to give them up, even though they admittedly limit the size tires I can use. Yes - a rock occasionally pings off of them BUT there are no paint chips, dings or scratches on the underside of the downtube or chain stays. An additional benefit is that the drive train stays clean, not to mention my backside.

A few suggestions if you are considering fenders for off pavement riding:

- Allow plenty of clearance between the rubber and the fender - at least 10mm, more is better. I've been running 40 & 42mm knobby tires with 58mm fenders. 

- Just say no to mud flaps on the front. They're great in the rain but you're likely to pick up more pebbles, twigs and leaves when off pavement. 

- Consider plastic break away mounting  hardware for the front sender stays (see Rene Here or Portland Design Works) 

- Unsurprisingly, short knobs - or slicks - play better with fenders.

- If you like to ride through deep mud and  over wet red clay roads skip the fenders and stock up on replacement chains, chain rings, rear cogs derailleurs and bottom brackets.

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On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 2:50:00 PM UTC-4 Ted Durant wrote:

[Russell Duncan]

My current favorite set of tires for gravel is the Panasonic-made Bruce Gordon Rock ‘n Road, in size 700 x 43 on my Surly Cross X Check. The largest size tire that I dare run on that Surly. BG’s are also available in 48’s in both 700 c and 650 b rims. I also don’t use fenders for fear of clogging them up with mud and such. They’re reasonably priced at $59 and $67 for the 43’s and 48’s. 

Russell Duncan

Saratoga, WY USA

[George Schick]

Another suggestion if you must use fenders on gravel is to install the ones SKS makes out of some kind of recycled plastic material.  They won't completely eliminate the noise you get from tiny rocks being picked up by knobby tires, but they will reduce it significantly over the metal ones.  And they are available in a half-dozen or so widths to accommodate your selected tires.

[Patrick Moore]

Segueing off Leah's thread: can anyone recommend a 44 to 48 mm tire as or almost as light and supple as the RH Snoqualmie Pass Extralight? For the 1st Matthews, pavement, gravel, and sand. I don't need not stinking knobs, but will be happy to entertain their suggestion if the tire is ditto as above.

I'll be especially interested in any Schwalbe tires ditto as above since my experience with 2 models of EL Schwalbes and 2 models of EL RHs leaves the contest neck-and-neck, with Schwalbe perhaps having a slight edge.

Since the newly Hover-barred Monocog is now so much nicer to ride, I will happily let it take the place of the #1 Monocog for sandier rides, thus for the Monocog I can lose some sand float for the sake of more crisp pavement cornering.

Thanks.

On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 2:15 PM Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

I love pavement. But I’ve been on two gravel rides in the last month and I rode a Platy either time and it wasn’t my favorite for that bike. But, I have my old 2019 52 cm Clem L, and it doesn’t have a dedicated purpose right now and shouldn’t that be the bike for rough and tough stuff like gravel? Also, my Platys are prisses. 

BUT. I’m not good at gravel. I have no idea what the kids are doing these days. I have questions, and you have answers.

1. Can I keep my VO wavy fenders on a gravel bike? Here’s what I have, and they say up to 50 mm tire will fit:

2. Slick or knobby? I can’t even get a straight answer on this. Which is better? If it matters about the rider, this will be for a rider with a healthy fear of crashing.

3. How wide? I have 42s on my bikes now and I don’t feel like they are wide enough. 

4. Tubeless or no? These wheels are tubeless-compatible but I put a tube in them because I wasn’t riding enough to keep the sealant circulating. But that can be changed right quick.

Here is my Clem in its current configuration, and yes, I know the Backabikes gotta go. 

Thanks for your help!

Leah 

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Andrew Letton]

Search back a couple of days. Jeff posted these Soma Supple Vitesse 48mm tires here on RBW list.

[RBW] Re: FS: Soma Supple Vitesse SL 700 x 48 Tires (Pair)

On Saturday, 3 June 2023 at 11:23:58 UTC-5 jeffbog...@hotmail.com wrote:

Great condition, < 100 miles. These are the superlight casing, weigh 370g each and ride like clouds. Asking $65 for both. Please PM for interest, thanks!

Jeff (Alabama)

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[Patrick Moore]

Thanks for that; I found the listing and emailed Jeff.

Can anyone here compare the SSV SL and RHSP EL in terms of quality of rolling "feel," ease and above all security of tubeless setup on tubeless rims? How wide are they in real life? (And on what width of rim?)

Thanks.

[Patrick Moore]

On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 12:50 PM Ted Durant <tedd...@gmail.com> wrote:

1. Can I keep my VO wavy fenders on a gravel bike?

 Yes,  but do you really want to? They'll limit your tire choice and it'll sound like you're shaking a soda (pop) can (let's please not pollute the thread with that discussion) full of rocks all ride long. As others have graphically shown, if it's muddy, you'll just pack the mudguards full of mud. That said, I run fenders on my Breadwinner, because most of my riding is on pavement and, until recently, the roads were frequently wet. If was planning a longer off-road ride, I'd ditch the fenders.

I keep fenders on my dirt road bikes, full on the Matthews, clip-on on the Monocog, since the fenders do help (greatly for the fulls, at least slightly for the clip-ons) keep the dust off me and the bike; our local very fine sand is thrown up in clouds of very fine dust. Hardly any mud here in the high desert, of course, and slick tires on the Matthews and very high clearances on the Monocog. (Actually, one reason I got the Monocog was to have a "snow bike" for the 1 day every 2 years with sufficient snow accumulation to allow a bosque snow ride. Yes, the last time the snow did pack up the Monocog wheels -- and rd and cassette and chain.)

 

2. Slick or knobby? I can’t even get a straight answer on this. Which is better? If it matters about the rider, this will be for a rider with a healthy fear of crashing.

Part of this comes down to what you mean by "gravel". Tread only starts to make a difference when you're in soft stuff, where the edges of the knobs can bite into something to provide more acceleration/deceleration/cornering force. When you take a turn on gravel you're going to have much less traction than on pavement, regardless of the tires. Those pesky little gravel bits are easy to shove aside, and hooking the edge of a knob on them just shoves them harder.

Jan goes into this often and deeply to prove that knobs don't really help in gravel. They do in sand, but I prefer treadless for fast pavement riding and I'll slow in offroad corners.

 

3. How wide? I have 42s on my bikes now and I don’t feel like they are wide enough. 

Again, this may be a function of what type of "gravel" you're on. For the crushed limestone trails of Wisconsin at reasonable speeds, 42 is plenty. If you get into softer, sandy trails, though, or you love to fly through hairpin turns, bigger is always better. I ride 48s on my Breadwinner and never feel like I have "too much tire" under me.  Unlike knobs, wider tires provide a genuine cornering advantage on loose surfaces, as they spread the force across lots more of those pesky little gravel bits, putting less force on each bit.

This does indeed depend on the type and depth of sand. I've found that for deep and silty sand, 50 mm is my minimum for relatively easy pedaling in the deeper bits (up to 3" with some work or low gears), but 60 mm is very noticeably better, and 72 mm just floats compared even to 60 mm. ~22/18/13 psi for each width. But for firm dirt and gravel, I'd be happy with 44s, but I'm bigger than Leah.

 

4. Tubeless or no? These wheels are tubeless-compatible but I put a tube in them because I wasn’t riding enough to keep the sealant circulating. But that can be changed right quick.

I don't think gravel vs pavement enters into that decision, unless by "gravel" you mean bouncing over baby heads at high speed. One of the big benefits is eliminating pinch flats, which generally result from hitting fairly large chunks of something at low pressure. But you can do that in a Wisconsin pot hole on pavement, too. I'm running tubeless on my Breadwinner, but I'm not convinced it's an improvement, especially if you're not riding the bike frequently. I'm careful about storing my bike, but I still get sealant drying in the valve stems, which makes it very hard to put in air.

IMO, sealant isn't worth the hassle and mess unless you contend with goatheads or other very common puncture agents, or if you suffer from pinch flats with tubes. Me, if I had to patch no more than 1 flat per ~75 miles I'd just buy more Remas.

 

Tires: what an embarrassment of riches we have today, compared to even 10 years ago.

Amen. 

[brendonoid]

Things have been covered in great detail really not much to add other than a +1 vote for Soma Cazaderos. Bit of a knob, solid centre line and rolls a bit nicer than gravelkings. All the boutique tyre brands are made by Panaracer anyway so let healthy scepticism lead your decision making.

Fenders keep the rocks off your paintwork but can lead to serious life changing accidents off-road if you don't have quick release stays.

CONTROVERSIAL TAKE: Unless you get a puncture every other ride tubeless is a scam.

[Garth]

All I can add is take along a spare tube or preferably two so "if" a tube goes wonky it's a relatively quick swap out of tubes. Fold up the former tube, squeezing the air out of it, put it in your bag and fix it at home at a leisurely pace. I buy rubber cement in the reusable cans sold at WallyWorld and/or any auto parts store. The can have an applicator built-in to the lid and the can lasts indefinitely given the lid is screwed back on. I used to repair tubes in the field but after running into some patches that had were stuck to the plastic, not to mention countless silly little tubes of glue that dry out unless used relatively quickly, I decided to just take 2 tubes with me and a patch kit as a last resort and run over a mine field or something, which of course the tires would be last thing to worry about ! I've never needed any of it though, as successful no-drama riding is normal.

[Tom Palmer]

Hi Leah,

Just to pile on a little more- I agree on removing the racks and extra weight and getting the biggest tires that fit. Schwalbe Thunder Burts are my go to for dirt roads and they ride well on the road too. I already shared  with you privately that I think the Platypus is a tremendous dirt road bike if you can let it get dirty. 

The big tires will help you overcome the gravel/dirt anxiety if you still have it.

Tom Palmer

Twin Lake, MI 

[J J]

Leah, I believe that unless you anticipate doing a ton of competitive riding in super wet and super muddy conditions, your tire choice doesn't matter too much. 

It's impossible to objectively assess real or perceived benefits of one tire over another, or one manufacturer over another, in real-world conditions. There are too many other variables. 

Our subjective impressions are important, but preferences, comfort level, and riding style are very personal. You should take my suggestions about what works for me with a grain of salt. 

Also, "gravel" means different things in different contexts.

My take:

• If you intend to ride frequently and aggressively in super muddy and wet conditions, get big aggressive knobbies. The specific tire or manufacturer does not matter all that much, other than price and appearances, both of which can vary tremendously. 
  
• If the riding will be mostly dry gravel and on pavement, get tires with smaller, less aggressive knobs, or simply stick with wide "touring" tires, or whatever you might already have handy. 
  
• For the most comfort, get the biggest tires you can fit.
  

I ride slicks or touring tires on gravel all the time. When I've occasionally encountered muddy segments, I very cautiously ride through. If the tires spin or slide, or if it looks or starts to feel too sketchy, I dismount, walk, and push the bike through. No biggie.

I have SKS plastic fenders (with quick releases that have saved my butt) on all my bikes. I haven't noticed any excessive clanking. I figure it's better for rocks to hit my fenders than it is for them to slam into my frames, anyway.

As Brendon mentioned, Panaracer manufactures tires for multiple brands. For a given category of tire, the various treads, compounds, and casing structures are similar no matter the brand.

Branding and marketing are powerful, though, as Grant/Rivendell has been inculcating forever. Every company claims their tires are the best for this or that purpose and will give you a competitive edge. I'm skeptical about such claims for most riding. (Tires for extreme situations or competitive riding or racing are another matter.) 

I attached here a section from Riv's website about tire ride quality fyi.

I ran tires from various boutique brands (as Brendon called them) for a couple of years. I'm done with that expensive, longterm experiment. Too many sidewall cuts, blowouts, and problems. I'm back to trusty, robust Schwalbe Marathons. Incidentally, these days Schwalbe is producing some great looking "transparent skin" (tan) tires with reflective strips across their numerous lines.

Finally, I ride with tubes. I like to minimize hassles and keep things simple wherever I can, so I don't bother with tubeless. I keep two or three spare tubes with me all the time, which might seem excessive! But a few months back, I experienced two unrelated flats on different sections of a ride. Carrying those extra tubes suddenly seemed brilliant.

Jim

[Josiah Anderson]

As a counterpoint to Jim and Brendon, I think supple tires are well worth the money (and that's coming from a usually-broke college student), and you do NOT need super heavy duty tires for gravel roads. I've run René Herse tires for years and years, and Grand Bois before that, which were very similar. I have almost always worn out the tread before they die of sidewall cuts, and back when I logged mileage it would take 5-6k miles to wear out a Babyshoe Pass Extralight (42-584).

Despite the quoted claim from the Riv website, there is a very significant difference in ride quality and speed between René Herse tires and heavier belted ones. If you are running the heavier tires at high enough pressure that it doesn't feel like you're riding through molasses (which is because of the friction losses in the thick tire flexing), then they will be a harsher ride. More supple tires don't lose speed at lower pressures, because it takes almost no energy to flex the casing, so they are both more comfortable and faster.

My tire recommendation would be to run whatever tires you have until they wear out, and then get the widest René Herse tires that will fit your Clem. Yes they are very expensive, but if you can afford them it's absolutely worth trying them at least once. I don't think they're essential for "gravel" riding, although they're certainly very nice. I'm mostly writing this to say that you don't need to go out and buy super heavy duty mainstream "gravel" or "touring" tires.

I hope the gravel riding goes well! It's something I've enjoyed for a long time, and to echo others' comments, don't overthink it too much. Just start riding and call it good!

Josiah Anderson

usually in Missoula, MT

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[Steve]

Words of Wisdom:

     "...don't overthink it too much. Just start riding and call it good!"

Well said Josiah!

[Ted Durant]

On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 11:35:41 AM UTC-5 J J wrote:

I attached here a section from Riv's website about tire ride quality fyi.

That section is from Soma, not Riv, and it says, "There is a pervasive myth that thin, "supple" tire sidewalls are essential to a smooth and cushy ride. That is misleading at best, bullshit at worst."  (I could be wrong, but I don't think Grant has ever sworn like that in anything he's published, btw.)

Soma is doing the misleading here. I've never heard or seen anyone claim that supple tires are "essential to a smooth and cushy ride." The claims I am aware of are 1) they are faster, and 2) they are more comfortable, all else equal. Claim 1 is fully backed by science. Claim 2 is simply a matter of opinion, and lots of people I know hold that opinion based on thousands of miles of experience.

The first tires I put on my ProtoveloBleriot were Rivendell's Fatty Rumpkin tires. I rode those lots of places, over lots of surfaces, lots of miles, and all the time I thought, "this bike is okay, nothing special." Then, before riding that bike 600km to my 25th college reunion, I put Pacenti PariMotos on it. As I said in my previous post, I audibly gasped as I coasted down my driveway the first time. The bike accelerated like a rocket pack had been attached to it. The tires utterly transformed the bike into one that I happily rode many more miles. You can look up Compass/Rene Herse tire testing results to see their measurements of rolling resistance and how miserably off the back the Fatty Rumpkins are. It was very interesting for me to read their test report, having binned the tires a few years earlier.

Look, as I also said previously, we have an embarrassment of riches in bike tires today. In my experience, which I think is pretty extensive, the three things that most transform a bike (assuming you've found your happy saddle) are new tires, a new chain, and new handlebar tape. In the grand scheme of cycling expenses, trying a new set of tires each year is, IMO, money well spent for max enjoyment. I highly encourage people to experiment and find what works for them.

[Ted Durant]

On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 2:47:30 PM UTC-5 I wrote:

That section is from Soma, not Riv, and it says, "There is a pervasive myth that thin, "supple" tire sidewalls are essential to a smooth and cushy ride. That is misleading at best, bullshit at worst."  (I could be wrong, but I don't think Grant has ever sworn like that in anything he's published, btw.)

Hmmm, after further research I think that's directly from RBW, not them quoting Soma. Sorry about that. And, disappointed that RBW/Grant feel the need to be so edgy about the topic. Soma also sells the Supple Vitesse, about which they say, "Its superlight casing not only reduces rotational weight, but also reduces its rolling resistance and does an amazing job at smoothing out the road."

[Patrick Moore]

I had the same experience after installing 559 X 28 Elk Passes (175 digital grams) to replace 571 X 23 Michelin Pro Races (different rims of course). The PRs were better than the light version of the Conti Grands Prix that I used previously, but the Elk Passes felt as if I were riding on a "good day" instead of a tired day; and that feeling remains after 8 years. (I shod the 2020 Matthews with the EPs and it felt fast! Then I replaced the EPs with the 42 mm Naches Pass ELs; these feel darned good, but the bike no longer has the feel of "accelerate!" that it did before (and the handling also loses some "crispness).

Ditto when replacing the 50 mm F Freds -- which felt fast when I rode them -- with the lightest 60 mm Big Ones: again, consistently over time and repeated conditions I pedaled in a gear 1 tooth higher.

Tho', odd: My Herse had some mediocre tires; IIRC 32 mm Pasela wire beads; and I'd bought the bike cheap because the previous 2 owners thought the tubing too thick and unreponsive. But the fit felt "perfect" from the first ride, and with that bike too I routinely rode 1 tooth smaller in back. Odd.

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[Doug H.]

I am not an avid gravel rider but many of my rides involve short stretches of gravel roads. What I've found that works for me is not so much tires but how I approach gravel riding. I grip the handlebars lightly and never overcorrect steering. During my first foray into gravel riding I approached it the same as on asphalt but learned that when I feel a little slip of my front wheel I don't react with steering, if that makes sense. It can be disconcerting at first but I have lately even tried no-hands on gravel with no problems....so far. I don't recommend no-hands though. 

Doug

[Johnny Alien]

I have had the same tire experience almost exactly (transforming the ride significantly) and it has made me be very picky about tire selection.

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

Here's my Clem H in its current MTB mode (I had originally built it to be my errand bike). As for tires, I'm running Rene Herse 650B x 48 Extralights. The knobs are great for when you need them, but they don't slow me down otherwise; the bike still serves me well for riding quickly in traffic running errands. And while it does not have fenders, the Pletscher Clem rack does offer a tiny bit of protection against mud flinging up onto my back!

Bob E

Cranford, NJ

On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 5:30:42 PM UTC-4 Doug H. wrote:

[Ted Durant]

In a gravel bike review on The Radavist (https://theradavist.com/dope-tubes-jon-pucci-custom-roberson-650b-gravel-bike/), the author writes,

But luckily for me, and for a lot of us out there, that is not what cycling is all about. There are no rules, there are no must haves or must not haves. The best bike is the one that makes you smile while you’re riding, the one that motivates you to go for a ride, the one that makes you look back as you walk away and exclaim, “Gattdamn look at her!”

I thought that was a fitting addition to this thread.

[Vincent Tamer]

I dig Ultradynamico Cava's on my clem H. I ride gravel whenever I can on my commute.

https://ultradynamico.com/products/cava-robusto?variant=31214452768853

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 1:15:22 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I love pavement. But I’ve been on two gravel rides in the last month and I rode a Platy either time and it wasn’t my favorite for that bike. But, I have my old 2019 52 cm Clem L, and it doesn’t have a dedicated purpose right now and shouldn’t that be the bike for rough and tough stuff like gravel? Also, my Platys are prisses. 

BUT. I’m not good at gravel. I have no idea what the kids are doing these days. I have questions, and you have answers.

1. Can I keep my VO wavy fenders on a gravel bike? Here’s what I have, and they say up to 50 mm tire will fit:

2. Slick or knobby? I can’t even get a straight answer on this. Which is better? If it matters about the rider, this will be for a rider with a healthy fear of crashing.

3. How wide? I have 42s on my bikes now and I don’t feel like they are wide enough. 

4. Tubeless or no? These wheels are tubeless-compatible but I put a tube in them because I wasn’t riding enough to keep the sealant circulating. But that can be changed right quick.

Here is my Clem in its current configuration, and yes, I know the Backabikes gotta go. 

[Piaw Na]

I'm not going to provide specific tire recommendations, but I ride "gravel" and single-track quiet a bit on my Roadini. I still remember that time in the 1990s when I was riding with Bridgestone-sponsored cyclist Eric House, and we all showed up in the East Bay proud of ourselves for riding road bikes on a Grant ride. Grant showed up on a fixie with 35mm tires and proceeded to outride us all on and off road. 

A few principles:

• The lighter the rider, the smaller the tire you can get away with. At 140 pounds, I can ride fire roads with 25mm tires (or even 23, back when Michelin 23s were $10/pop!)
• Tread or no tread doesn't matter as much as rider skill and speed.
• Rider skill cannot be disentangled from bike fit. If the bike doesn't fit, you will find stuff scary that you can actually ride if the bike fit. I once accidentally raised my seat too high and discovered that stuff I could easily ride suddenly became hard!
• The longer the ride and the steeper the climb, the more important weight becomes. I can ride big heavy tires if I'm only going to go downhill because a car did most of the work. But if I have to do a lot of climbing (some of which turns into hiking inevitably if you ride in mountainous areas), the lighter the bike the better off you are.
• You can drop tire pressure far more than most tire pressure calculators will tell you to. I can run 700x40 tires measuring 38mm at 25psi (the Rene Herse calculator will recommend 33psi) when I'm riding off pavement. On the pavement that same pressure will feel inefficient. I go so far as to carry a pressure gauge to drop tire pressure at the trail head and pump up the tires when I transition off a dirt descent onto pavement for the ride home.
• Bigger tires affect handling - one reason I don't ride with as big a tire as I can get away with is that you lose some agility. Frequently I find that being able to steer precisely and quickly offsets the inability to plow through some obstacle head on.

What I do notice is that most people don't like to underbike. They will make comments that I won't be able to do a ride on my 25mm tires and then be all surprised when I show up and do the ride. But when I'm touring I'm not going to bring 3 different bikes, so I just push the limits and go slower and occasionally depend on pulling a spare tire out of my saddle bag if a tire were to shred during a tour (which can happen even if you're not riding off pavement).

[Mackenzy Albright]

This thread needs less opinions and more inpirational photos of Gravel Clems. Just my opinion. :P 

[Doug H.]

Here is a photo of my Clem on a gravel road somewhere near Watkinsville, Ga.

Doug

[Doug H.]

And for an updated photo of my Clem with a 1x drivetrain...

Doug

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Many photos of many states of Clem H, all gravel ready- https://photos.app.goo.gl/uxqm63W2nB5scvmg7

-Kai

On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 4:06:54 PM UTC-4 Mackenzy Albright wrote:

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I like this advice. I’m keeping my fenders. I can fit 48s under them, and I think that’s enough. Also, I do have the breakaway tabs!

On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 4:32:34 PM UTC-4 steve...@gmail.com wrote:

A contrarian POV from a committed Fender Freak who says if you want fenders - Go For It!

I've been riding gravel fire roads and moderate single track in the Southern Appalachians on bikes with aluminum fenders for several years now and would be loath to give them up, even though they admittedly limit the size tires I can use. Yes - a rock occasionally pings off of them BUT there are no paint chips, dings or scratches on the underside of the downtube or chain stays. An additional benefit is that the drive train stays clean, not to mention my backside.

A few suggestions if you are considering fenders for off pavement riding:

- Allow plenty of clearance between the rubber and the fender - at least 10mm, more is better. I've been running 40 & 42mm knobby tires with 58mm fenders. 

- Just say no to mud flaps on the front. They're great in the rain but you're likely to pick up more pebbles, twigs and leaves when off pavement. 

- Consider plastic break away mounting  hardware for the front sender stays (see Rene Here or Portland Design Works) 

- Unsurprisingly, short knobs - or slicks - play better with fenders.

- If you like to ride through deep mud and  over wet red clay roads skip the fenders and stock up on replacement chains, chain rings, rear cogs derailleurs and bottom brackets.

-- 

On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 2:50:00 PM UTC-4 Ted Durant wrote:

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 3:15:22 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I love pavement. But I’ve been on two gravel rides in the last month and I rode a Platy either time and it wasn’t my favorite for that bike. But, I have my old 2019 52 cm Clem L, and it doesn’t have a dedicated purpose right now and shouldn’t that be the bike for rough and tough stuff like gravel?

It will be as great for "gravel" as it is for any other surface!

1. Can I keep my VO wavy fenders on a gravel bike?

 Yes,  but do you really want to? They'll limit your tire choice and it'll sound like you're shaking a soda (pop) can (let's please not pollute the thread with that discussion) full of rocks all ride long. As others have graphically shown, if it's muddy, you'll just pack the mudguards full of mud. That said, I run fenders on my Breadwinner, because most of my riding is on pavement and, until recently, the roads were frequently wet. If was planning a longer off-road ride, I'd ditch the fenders.

2. Slick or knobby? I can’t even get a straight answer on this. Which is better? If it matters about the rider, this will be for a rider with a healthy fear of crashing.

Part of this comes down to what you mean by "gravel". Tread only starts to make a difference when you're in soft stuff, where the edges of the knobs can bite into something to provide more acceleration/deceleration/cornering force. When you take a turn on gravel you're going to have much less traction than on pavement, regardless of the tires. Those pesky little gravel bits are easy to shove aside, and hooking the edge of a knob on them just shoves them harder.

 

3. How wide? I have 42s on my bikes now and I don’t feel like they are wide enough. 

Again, this may be a function of what type of "gravel" you're on. For the crushed limestone trails of Wisconsin at reasonable speeds, 42 is plenty. If you get into softer, sandy trails, though, or you love to fly through hairpin turns, bigger is always better. I ride 48s on my Breadwinner and never feel like I have "too much tire" under me.  Unlike knobs, wider tires provide a genuine cornering advantage on loose surfaces, as they spread the force across lots more of those pesky little gravel bits, putting less force on each bit.

 

4. Tubeless or no? These wheels are tubeless-compatible but I put a tube in them because I wasn’t riding enough to keep the sealant circulating. But that can be changed right quick.

I don't think gravel vs pavement enters into that decision, unless by "gravel" you mean bouncing over baby heads at high speed. One of the big benefits is eliminating pinch flats, which generally result from hitting fairly large chunks of something at low pressure. But you can do that in a Wisconsin pot hole on pavement, too. I'm running tubeless on my Breadwinner, but I'm not convinced it's an improvement, especially if you're not riding the bike frequently. I'm careful about storing my bike, but I still get sealant drying in the valve stems, which makes it very hard to put in air.

Tires: what an embarrassment of riches we have today, compared to even 10 years ago. The revelation for me was Kirk Pacenti's Pari-Motos, at 650x38B, which caused me to audibly gasp on the first downhill. Since then, Grand Bois, Compass/Rene Herse, Ultradynamico... all of them have pretty much the same thing going: super supple tires made by Panaracer in Japan.  Start with size, then narrow it down by tread, casing strength, color, and price. I'm a dedicated Rene Herse tire fan. The Gravel Kings I put on my Sam #1 are outstanding, too. I'm looking forward to trying Ultradynamicos on my Sam #2. 

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I need to try the Clem out on gravel; in fact, I need to find some gravel. Our bike club has a Ride Our Routes collection that I will look into. But I also need new tires, regardless. These are pretty worn from being my one and only bike that got tons of covid miles. 

On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 1:32:07 PM UTC-4 Slin wrote:

@Leah - Have you tried taking the Clem out on gravel rides, as-is? I've also got a Clem and Platy, so I'm curious to hear how you experience them differently on the same trails.

S

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 1:15:22 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I love pavement. But I’ve been on two gravel rides in the last month and I rode a Platy either time and it wasn’t my favorite for that bike. But, I have my old 2019 52 cm Clem L, and it doesn’t have a dedicated purpose right now and shouldn’t that be the bike for rough and tough stuff like gravel? Also, my Platys are prisses. 

BUT. I’m not good at gravel. I have no idea what the kids are doing these days. I have questions, and you have answers.

1. Can I keep my VO wavy fenders on a gravel bike? Here’s what I have, and they say up to 50 mm tire will fit:

2. Slick or knobby? I can’t even get a straight answer on this. Which is better? If it matters about the rider, this will be for a rider with a healthy fear of crashing.

3. How wide? I have 42s on my bikes now and I don’t feel like they are wide enough. 

4. Tubeless or no? These wheels are tubeless-compatible but I put a tube in them because I wasn’t riding enough to keep the sealant circulating. But that can be changed right quick.

[Johnny Alien]

I used to always fender my bikes because I liked the looks but then realized that I was never in any conditions where they were needed from a practical sense so I changed my mind and now never use them.

[Leah Peterson]

I find a use for them nearly every ride - there is always some puddle or a bunch of goose poop that makes me thank my lucky stars for fenders. I rode a club ride last night and was sprayed by the woman riding in front of me because of course she had no fenders. I envied the woman behind me, who was surely spared by MY fenders.

On Jun 7, 2023, at 8:17 AM, Johnny Alien <johnny....@gmail.com> wrote:

I used to always fender my bikes because I liked the looks but then realized that I was never in any conditions where they were needed from a practical sense so I changed my mind and now never use them.

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[Johnny Alien]

I mean...if I had to deal with goose poop I would bring the fenders back quickly.

[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:10:11 AM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I find a use for them nearly every ride - there is always some puddle or a bunch of goose poop that makes me thank my lucky stars for fenders.

LOL, yeah, we've had no rain for a month here and the goose poop at the lakefront is epic right now. +1 for fenders.

That said, I have yet to find any goose poop on a gravel road. Our Wisconsin network of crushed limestone rail-trails, on the other hand, can be full of stuff you don't want spraying on your legs and back. Last year I did a 300km loop around SE Wisconsin, 111km of which was on trails. It didn't rain on us, but it had rained the day before, and some of the trails were still pretty damp. I was very happy to have fenders, even though there was a fair amount of sand rattling around in them. The guy riding behind me was sure glad I had them.

[Piaw Na]

I'm curious now. Is goose poop worse than horse poop?

[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 3:35:01 PM UTC-5 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

I'm curious now. Is goose poop worse than horse poop?

Well, at the risk of seriously derailing the thread, ... that depends. Fresh horse poop is pretty bad but it dries out quickly and then isn't a problem. Goose poop stays an icky, gooey, smelly mess for a long time and is a putrid green color. To try to keep this on topic ... I don't mind riding without fenders where there will be horse poop. I'll do anything to avoid riding without fenders through goose poop.

It probably matters that I've owned a horse and so I'm kind of fond of the smell of horse poop.

[Mackenzy Albright]

I've really learned to love fenders (honjo/VO) even outside of rainy season. Keeps a lot of dust and dirt off the drive train if placed correctly, reducing wear and maintenance. Sometimes there are unavoidable puddles or wet spots. Animal waste. Human waste. (City riding) keep bags and strapped things from rubbing. They look COOL. 

I'd like to have an bike without fenders. But I really just love fenders...

[Steve]

Piaw, , goose poop is definitely worse. 

Zoology 101; geese (as do all birds) excrete their urine through the same orifice as their stool. So, for the record, goose poop is an acidic mix of piss and $H!T. 

Use FENDERS and just say NO to bird poo! 

[Patrick Moore]

Even in high desert ABQ, NM with a citywide average of 9.5", fenders are useful and not merely ornamental; 3 of my 4 bikes have them. Our monsoon has been coyly making an early appearance with brief (<10 minute) showers (here they record 0.05" amounts); I put off a very short ride to Albertson's just now because of cars splashing thru road puddles, even tho' I have fenders.

Wildlife: We have plenty of horses and geese, but while I see plenty of horse shit -- for which I am glad to have fenders -- I don't recall seeing any from geese along the right of way, pavement or dirt, despite riding through many family hangouts. 

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[ascpgh]

Something I hadn't imagined until my riding included entires days on non-paved surfaces was that even on a clear beautiful day and dry conditions, the fenders and my long front one's flap kept the dust down, away from my drivetrain and feet. On multi-day trips it has protected and preserved it where in the fenderless past there was no doubt that I had to carry my chain lube and rags to carefully "field clean" and reapply. 

I am with Josiah's advice or ride what you've got until replacement time comes. I am also a convert to Rene Herse (nee Compass) tires. They made my Rambouillet remain suitable for ten more years of much wider scope of use than Grant envisioned when it was new. I have a custom bike now partly built around the tires, partly my Ram's fit and definitely fenders.

[ascpgh]

Sorry, that one got out without signature and the last picture:

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[RichS]

Kai,

My compliments on your Clem! Your portfolio of images really displays the Clems versatility, and I might add, your creativity. An ideal bike for NY/Brooklyn terrain.

The adjustable bottom bracket is pretty cool too:-)

Best,

Rich in ATL

[Gill]

The fact that the OP’s query has already been thoroughly dealt with won’t dissuade me from chiming in on a subject near and dear (besides, if posters were not able to beat dead horses this forum would have dissolved years ago). I own a Clem and ride off road, gravel/trail riding is the fourth most favorite thing I do in life. I highly encourage others to do it on a Clem. Opinion, highly subjective, yes, but I do have a kind of data point. Usually I’m solo but last summer I joined a group ride (my daughter said I needed to make new friends). This served as a good barometer of how Clem compared with other “gravel” bikes. My inaugural ride was 19 miles moving at a good clip, mostly off-road at the end of which another rider smiled and said “You just ride that thing don’t you“. I translated that to, “turns out that’s a nice bicycle and my unspoken questioning of its appropriateness for this ride was unfounded, my apologies“. Worth noting, unlike Kai’s tough looking Clem mine is a Riv blue step thru and gets no respect. The qualities that make the Clem a good gravel bike are those that make it a good bike period: bulletproof frame, long wheel base, stable handling, gearing that gets you over/through anything you have any business being on, fits most any tire and uber comfortable. I might add that part of that comfort comes from the bosco bars – Clems suspension system –a swept back pliant trail chatter sponge that doesn’t compromise control. So resist the temptation to immediately switch em out for off-road. Happy trails.
Gil

Gloucester

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Thanks Rich! And Hi Gil of Gloucester (hoping to bring my blue step through to Rockport for a week in July!, where’s the good stuff?)

When I got my Clem, there were no step through frames in size huge, otherwise I’d have had that, and probably never grabbed at a Rosco or two..

Top tubes are literal crutches, kinda.

And that specialized titanium fancy bottom bracket was the first weight weenie thing I ever purchased. Sealed Shimano cheapies have become my favored crank holder in the thirty something years since.

-Kai

On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 1:30:01 PM UTC-4 RichS wrote:

[Richard Rose]

Brilliant! And, I concur. Similar data points.:)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 9, 2023, at 5:15 PM, Gill <crgi...@gmail.com> wrote:

The fact that the OP’s query has already been thoroughly dealt with won’t dissuade me from chiming in on a subject near and dear (besides, if posters were not able to beat dead horses this forum would have dissolved years ago). I own a Clem and ride off road, gravel/trail riding is the fourth most favorite thing I do in life. I highly encourage others to do it on a Clem. Opinion, highly subjective, yes, but I do have a kind of data point. Usually I’m solo but last summer I joined a group ride (my daughter said I needed to make new friends). This served as a good barometer of how Clem compared with other “gravel” bikes. My inaugural ride was 19 miles moving at a good clip, mostly off-road at the end of which another rider smiled and said “You just ride that thing don’t you“. I translated that to, “turns out that’s a nice bicycle and my unspoken questioning of its appropriateness for this ride was unfounded, my apologies“. Worth noting, unlike Kai’s tough looking Clem mine is a Riv blue step thru and gets no respect. The qualities that make the Clem a good gravel bike are those that make it a good bike period: bulletproof frame, long wheel base, stable handling, gearing that gets you over/through anything you have any business being on, fits most any tire and uber comfortable. I might add that part of that comfort comes from the bosco bars – Clems suspension system –a swept back pliant trail chatter sponge that doesn’t compromise control. So resist the temptation to immediately switch em out for off-road. Happy trails.

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[Leah Peterson]

What Gil says resonates with me. I love how you love a Clem! All those attributes truly do make the Clem a gem.  I have favored those Platys as of late, but I am going back to Clem-loving again soon. We are traveling right now, but when I get back I’m heading to the bike shop to see about putting 48s on my Clem if the Pacenti Brevet rims will take them. Sounds like if they aren’t tubeless, it’s ok. We’ll see.

On Jun 9, 2023, at 3:15 PM, Gill <crgi...@gmail.com> wrote:

The fact that the OP’s query has already been thoroughly dealt with won’t dissuade me from chiming in on a subject near and dear (besides, if posters were not able to beat dead horses this forum would have dissolved years ago). I own a Clem and ride off road, gravel/trail riding is the fourth most favorite thing I do in life. I highly encourage others to do it on a Clem. Opinion, highly subjective, yes, but I do have a kind of data point. Usually I’m solo but last summer I joined a group ride (my daughter said I needed to make new friends). This served as a good barometer of how Clem compared with other “gravel” bikes. My inaugural ride was 19 miles moving at a good clip, mostly off-road at the end of which another rider smiled and said “You just ride that thing don’t you“. I translated that to, “turns out that’s a nice bicycle and my unspoken questioning of its appropriateness for this ride was unfounded, my apologies“. Worth noting, unlike Kai’s tough looking Clem mine is a Riv blue step thru and gets no respect. The qualities that make the Clem a good gravel bike are those that make it a good bike period: bulletproof frame, long wheel base, stable handling, gearing that gets you over/through anything you have any business being on, fits most any tire and uber comfortable. I might add that part of that comfort comes from the bosco bars – Clems suspension system –a swept back pliant trail chatter sponge that doesn’t compromise control. So resist the temptation to immediately switch em out for off-road. Happy trails.

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[Johnny Alien]

I was under the understanding that the current Pacenti Brevet rims are tubeless ready.

https://pacenticycledesign.com/collections/aluminium-rims-gravel-cross/products/brevet-rim-650b-1

[Leah Peterson]

They are, and in the myriad responses I’ve gotten (many private and some on Instagram) it has been explained to me that if I want to run 48s I have two options: 1. Run tubeless but never more than 30 psi. Or, use tubes. Or thirdly, but new wheels.

Did I misunderstand? 

L

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 11, 2023, at 6:22 AM, Johnny Alien <johnny....@gmail.com> wrote:

I was under the understanding that the current Pacenti Brevet rims are tubeless ready.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/f1bc50da-bf18-4c45-b61a-d0a86d62ead0n%40googlegroups.com.

[Johnny Alien]

OH! I see. I don't know enough about tubeless to understand the fine details of size vs psi, etc. I have those rims on my ProtoGallop with 42's but I have tubes because it suits my brain better.

[Joe Bernard]

Can anyone here confirm that she can run 48s tubed on those Pacenti Brevet rims? I checked their site and got nowhere, it shows a graph with 42 yes, 50 no. What about 48??

[Johnny Alien]

The internal width is 19mm. A 48 might benefit from a slightly wider internal width but it should be just fine with the 19. I am not an expert in such things though.

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

48s are absolutely fine on Pacenti Brevets.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/gravel-myths-3-wide-tires-need-wide-rims/

https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-18-wide-tires-need-wide-rims/

Bob E

Cranford, NJ

[Leah Peterson]

All the happiness and all the joy!!! I can run what I want! I was getting ready to pitch the whole project when I thought I might have to build new wheels - quite the investment for something I’m only experimenting with, plus I had dyno in my old wheelset. I’m getting 48s because I absolutely CAN!!!! I’ll take it to the shop and report back later on what tires I end up with.

On Jun 11, 2023, at 1:37 PM, Bob Ehrenbeck <ree...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Kim Hetzel]

Leah,

I have own my Clem for about seven months now. I have ridden mostly on pavement. There has been a several times that I have gone off road, mostly dirt. I have found a completely different riding experience in handling of my Clem. By this, I mean, my bike handles and behaves very differently. It is sure-footed and solid with it long
wheelbase and tires (Schwalbe 29x2.25 Rapid Rob without fenders). I point the bike in the direction I want it to go and it goes there without hesitation nor slippage underneath me. This I find very exciting and quickly puts a smile on face.

I encourage you to try riding off road as a new experience for you.

As for now, I do plan on buying some fenders in the near future, such as Honjo Smooth 74s'. However, I have been looking at Honjo Flat 80s', of which I could fit a wider tire; up to 2.5 inches. These are currently sold out at SIMWORKS. They are not a priority right now.

Kim Hetzel
in Yelm smelling the Scotch broom in full bloom. Yuck.

[Joe Bernard]

YAY! I tend to be the worrying sort and I'm very happy to hear that the rim/tire combo will work for you. Now go ride that gravel! 

[Jason Fuller]

I am very late to this conversation, and everything has been covered already, but I wanted to say that even though you're not "into riding gravel" per se, I think a big ol' set of knobby tires on the Clem is an awesome idea (something you can take multiple steps towards, starting with 48's and no fenders on the Brevet rims) if it unlocks new paths and areas to explore. I'm not going to lie, riding on smooth pavement is nicer than riding on gravel, as trendy as gravel riding has become. The real reason to ride gravel to me, is to be able to go to quieter, more nature-filled spaces by bike. Having the right tool for the job will make it a much more enjoyable experience. And while you can totally under-bike slick 42's and fenders like many here do, it is MUCH more confidence inspiring to be on voluminous, knobby tires. 

My suggestion is to put some 48's with some tread on for now, explore your local options and walk if you need to, and if you find yourself really enjoying getting off pavement, then it's time to upgrade to some wider rims (ie Cliffhanger) and some really capable tires like knobby 2.4" Teravails. 

[George Schick]

One comment I'll have to make about gravel riding is that there's nothing worse than slogging along on a very dry and dusty road (such as we have in abundance during this drought stricken year) and being passed by a vehicle which leaves you covered by big clouds of dust.  It's bad enough riding on some of these limestone tailing paths and coming home with a dust covered frame, tires, drive train, etc.

[Patrick Moore]

Yes indeed, put tires as fat as fit, with pressures as low as safe on the Clem and try it out. 

And pace Jason, I gently urge that riding on surfaces other than smooth asphalt has its own particular pleasure; even underbiking with 38s in sand -- occasionally. But fat and soft is easier, and as long as the tires are fat and soft any bike is fun off road, IMO.

Patrick Moore, who just did an early summer 12.82-mile ditchbank ride on the drop-bar'd Monocog with new 7 cm, 25* stem and 71mm WTB Rangers at 12-13 psi.

[lconley]

I don't know about the later Clems, but an issue on my OG Clementine is that wide tires interfere with the double kickstand. Not likely a problem with 650b - 48s but starting at about 55 (2.15") width, the tires touch the kickstand - had to oval the mounting hole. 2.4s rubbed the kickstand very badly. I like how the Gus has an offset kickstand hole. Do the later Clems have the offset kickstand hole also?

Laing

[Johnny Alien]

I have a recent Clem and the hole is not offset.

[ascpgh]

There is a realistic limit to how low to go with fat tires, the rim 's internal bead hook (or hookless) width will become the controller of that. The cross section of the installed tire on the rim makes a circle of mostly tire, bead to bead, closed by the rim. Narrow the rim and more of the circle is tire rather than aluminum, soft tire as you reduce inflation. You just want to stay above the point where you on the bike, doing what you do while riding (stop, start, steer, veer and hit bumps sticks rocks) doesn't cause the tire to wrinkle up instead of responding to your will. 

The degree to which acute turning of the front wheel while on the bike or leaning hard in a turn will deflect the sidewalls increases as the pressure goes below what you should choose. Practice for yourself when the big tires are installed. Deflate carefully and try them at frequent increments as you descend in inflation. What pressure's best? you will see for your own uses. 

I just rode 160 miles of this on my cushy soft RH Babyshoe Pass 650x42 tubeless:

 

The first half of the ride looked like that. The other looked like this:

That's at the visitors center at Ohiopyle, PA, on the Great Allegheny Passage when I started home yesterday. Deep breath, it's just rain. 53°F and I skipped the shell in my overnight bag. 

I'll plug for the RH tires again. I subject them to this and the seasonal crumbling infrastructure roadways, punctuated by orange cones and detours, relentlessly and comfortably. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Patrick Moore]

Very true; narrower rims require higher pressures. Still, you can go pretty low. My 71 mm Rangers are mounted tubeless on 24 mm OW non-tubeless Alex rims and there's no squirm or "wrinkle" in cornering or on bumps; the tires feel very "solid" and not mushy. Me + Monocog about 200 lb.

[Vincent Tamer]

I'll add my two cents now. I commute on my clem and ride gravel whenever I can. I've had fenders on it nearly all the time I've had this bike and I've taken it into some pretty rough spots that I would say are just outside of gravel such as riding on old train track. If it's still called gravel, it's the coarsest kind. It was small stones in some spots.

I ride with Ultradynamico Cavas which are great but you can go with the ROSe' tires from UD if you want something with more tooth. I've debated taking the fenders off for the summer but do like how it keeps me, my bags and my drivetrain a bit less dusty so they will most likely stay on the bike. Plus I'm a little lazy. I've done some nasty riding in mud with fenders and made it work but it was a pain and had to stop to bang all the mud out. Other than that I haven't regretted the fenders aside from aesthetic reasons but sometimes they look cool.

[Leah Peterson]



Well, today was the day. After verifying (thanks, friends) that my rims would take 48s, I went to the bike shop and asked for gravel tires. A 52 cm Clem will look like this in your rear backup camera:

I had looked at the one thousand “embarrassment of riches” tire choices championed here and I was…overwhelmed. Maybe this tire didn’t come in 650b or it did, but not in 48. Or yes, this one does but it’s out of stock. I don’t know how much gravel riding I’m going to be doing; I just want wider tires that could be good on gravel and to keep my fenders (they’re pretty. They keep dust off my stuff.) so I decided to trust the bike shop. It took them all of 5 seconds to hand me a pair of Gravel King SS tires in 650b and in 48mm.

I asked about the conditions of my old tires. How do you see wear on a slick? The old tires were Gravel Kings and there isn’t a good wear indicator. But, the tires had lots of cracking and they told me it was time for new tires. It feels good to know you wore something out. 

I didn’t expect the bike for a few days but they had those tires on there lickety-split. Had I known, I would have stayed to watch them work on my bike. You know how there are always guys sitting on stools in bike shops, chatting with the mechanics as they work? I always want to be those guys but I feel like I will be underfoot and out of place like somebody’s tagalong sister, so I scurry out of there and wait for my summons. One day I will be brave…

The text came through right as I was heading home from my Costco run. Leah Peterson, come get your bike! Here are the glamour shots.

I do not think these tires look much wider than the 42s previously on the rim, but they do feel better, more sure-footed. I did not have a LOT of time to try them out as I had a hot date tonight. We took a neighborhood trail (dirt) and a tiny stretch of gravel. I like the tread, don’t you? There’s a lot going on here. 

And for those of you who will want to see the stats with your own eyes, I included the image below. Please ignore the missing orange ano valve stem cap. I cannot ever, EVER, leave a bike shop without some sort of calamity. Every time I pick my bike up from a bike shop, I will have to go back a second time. My personal record is 3 trips in one day. Could be anything. Something they forgot to do. Something they installed wrong. Today it was something they forgot to put back - this cap. And they also forgot to tighten up my brakes, but I didn’t mention that. This cap was specially anodized to go with this fun wheelset from Analog, so I had to have it back. 

I have resolved that I am going to ride this bike more often. I love the Platys, maybe too much, but I also have great affection for the big blue Clem and it needs more miles. The tires are tubeless compatible, so I may switch it to tubeless if I find myself riding it a lot more.

I’m really excited to have breathed some new life into this old friend. The bike is very dear to me, which is why I have never sold it, even though it got ridden the least out of my trio. Clems are having their moment in the bike world. Everywhere I look, people (mostly men) are raving about the Clem L. They are plastered all over Instagram. Featured in the cool kids’ magazine, Calling In Sick, the Clem had its own issue. It’s great to see the Clems held in high esteem because most men weren’t thrilled about this model in 2015. So, I feel fortunate to have one of my own, set up a little bit different from my pair of Platys, so as to let me try some different kinds of riding. 

Thank you for all the help! I know much more now than when I first posted the question.

Leah

On Jun 14, 2023, at 1:59 PM, Vincent Tamer <vjt...@gmail.com> wrote:



I'll add my two cents now. I commute on my clem and ride gravel whenever I can. I've had fenders on it nearly all the time I've had this bike and I've taken it into some pretty rough spots that I would say are just outside of gravel such as riding on old train track. If it's still called gravel, it's the coarsest kind. It was small stones in some spots.

I ride with Ultradynamico Cavas which are great but you can go with the ROSe' tires from UD if you want something with more tooth. I've debated taking the fenders off for the summer but do like how it keeps me, my bags and my drivetrain a bit less dusty so they will most likely stay on the bike. Plus I'm a little lazy. I've done some nasty riding in mud with fenders and made it work but it was a pain and had to stop to bang all the mud out. Other than that I haven't regretted the fenders aside from aesthetic reasons but sometimes they look cool.

<Clem.jpg>

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 1:15:22 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I love pavement. But I’ve been on two gravel rides in the last month and I rode a Platy either time and it wasn’t my favorite for that bike. But, I have my old 2019 52 cm Clem L, and it doesn’t have a dedicated purpose right now and shouldn’t that be the bike for rough and tough stuff like gravel? Also, my Platys are prisses. 

BUT. I’m not good at gravel. I have no idea what the kids are doing these days. I have questions, and you have answers.

1. Can I keep my VO wavy fenders on a gravel bike? Here’s what I have, and they say up to 50 mm tire will fit:

2. Slick or knobby? I can’t even get a straight answer on this. Which is better? If it matters about the rider, this will be for a rider with a healthy fear of crashing.

3. How wide? I have 42s on my bikes now and I don’t feel like they are wide enough. 

4. Tubeless or no? These wheels are tubeless-compatible but I put a tube in them because I wasn’t riding enough to keep the sealant circulating. But that can be changed right quick.

Here is my Clem in its current configuration, and yes, I know the Backabikes gotta go. 

Thanks for your help!

Leah 

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<Clem.jpg>

[JAS]

Leah, 

You are going to have so much fun!!  Your Clem looks stunning, as always, but even more ready for gravel with the new tires.  I love those fenders too.  I put Rene Herse Juniper Ridge 48s on my Clem over a year ago and what a difference!  I now can ride the wet trails with confidence because I'm not slipping through the muddy spots.  They're plenty wide for the dirt and gravel trails I frequent and work fine on pavement which I have to ride to get to the trails.  Enjoy that big blue Clem and be sure to give us a review (and more photos, of course)!

RivSisters,

Joyce 

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

RivSister Joyce! It is *so* good to hear from you. I’m glad we seem to be on the same path - Platys for pavement and our Clems for the rough stuff. I’m going to try your Juniper Ridge tires after I wear out these Gravel Kings. They sound divine. Also, I could probably use your expertise about gravel riding as I’m getting into it. I shall keep your email address handy, ha!

RivSisters ♥️,

Leah

[Bikie#4646]

Leah, I'm late to the party, but will say you've covered the bases. I ride fenderless on my two mountain bikes (1000 mi. of aggressive single track a year) and have no need for fenders there. If too wet I simply stay off the trails to preserve them. 

However, I set up my dedicated mixed-surface bike (Homer) and my touring bike (Sam) with metal fenders back in 2013 and like them for all the reasons stated by the others. The touring bike sees lots of rail trails.

I can attest that the PDW breakaways do the job. I accidentally dropped the front of the Sam down after removing the front tire while installing the bike in my van and POP it released as promised. No damage since, as you know, you can pop it back into place.
Finally, yes, animal poop is not to be ignored. Back in the 1980's while at a mountain bike event in WVa I joined in on a game of bike polo in a cow pen (of all places). The next day, I had a pretty uncomfortable case of GI tract infection from drinking from my water bottle. (This was before hydration packs.) Until then, it was all fun and games.

Paul Germain

Midlothian, Va.

[JAS]

Leah, I have no doubt you have all the skills to handle gravel riding on your Clem based on the way you've catapulted into group riding and your comfort with the mileage.  You're strong and capable; Clem is also strong and capable!  Relax and keep pedaling (sage advice and encouragement from my brother in our younger days riding in various difficult conditions).  Go for it!

RivSisters,

Joyce

[Sarah Carlson]

In my opinion goose poop is way worse! It's more sloppy and GREEN. Horse poop is more grassy and solid and less likely to splatter. (I am a nurse who deals with a lot of poop professionally, and I have opinions)!

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 1:35:01 PM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

I'm curious now. Is goose poop worse than horse poop?

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 1:30:58 PM UTC-7 Ted Durant wrote:

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:10:11 AM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I find a use for them nearly every ride - there is always some puddle or a bunch of goose poop that makes me thank my lucky stars for fenders.

LOL, yeah, we've had no rain for a month here and the goose poop at the lakefront is epic right now. +1 for fenders.

That said, I have yet to find any goose poop on a gravel road. Our Wisconsin network of crushed limestone rail-trails, on the other hand, can be full of stuff you don't want spraying on your legs and back. Last year I did a 300km loop around SE Wisconsin, 111km of which was on trails. It didn't rain on us, but it had rained the day before, and some of the trails were still pretty damp. I was very happy to have fenders, even though there was a fair amount of sand rattling around in them. The guy riding behind me was sure glad I had them.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA 

[Jay LePree]

Dear all:

1)  The choice of fenders, I believe, shall be decided by the number of sticks and branches one will encounter on a ride.  When I commute in the rain, I use my fully, long fenderd bike. I found that the long fenders that Riv. sells are best for keeping my feet dry.  The flap on my front fender is, perhaps a 1/2" from the ground.  This is perfect for rain, but a drag, literally, when riding through the gravel woody path that I use.  To avoid, leaves, sticks, branches from being "sucked up" into the fenders, I go with fenderless bikes.  When it ranis, I take the roads with the long fenders.

2) Choice of tires is like asking choice of shoes, saddles, etc.   I use the WTB Byway 47 mm tires on my Platy. These tires have a smooth pattern down the center.  I have ridden many gravel paths in Minnewaska state park near Stone Ridge, NY and have found them fine.  However on really steep sections or when I encounter mud, I do wish for some knobs on my back wheel.  I may try these tires for this reason:

https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/components/tyres/gravel-bike-tyres/continental-terra-speed/
Kind regards,

Jay LePree

Demarest, NJ