saddle angle and lower back pain

[Brian Turner]

I wanted to post a bit about an experience I've had lately to see if anyone else here can relate, or provide some insights into: to preface, I'm a relatively new Riv owner, a longtime cyclist in his late 40's with no previous history of back pain (knock on wood), and someone who has always ridden saddles at a level angle, at or slightly above bar height.

As most of us on here do, I enjoy looking at photos of different setups for all the many different Riv bikes produced over the years. One thing I've noticed about a lot of folks' setup - especially the ones that are more upright, and especially the newer models that are stretched out and upright (Clem, Platy, Gus/Susie, Joe, etc.) - is that many riders tend to tilt their saddles nose-up slightly, and some at rather pronounced angles. I recall reading some posts recently published by Rivendell that essentially recommend positioning the saddle this way on these types of bikes.

So, after getting my Gus built up back in the beginning of October, I took the recommendation to heart, bolstered in part by all the evidence of many, many photos showing owners enjoying their saddles set up this way. I tilted the nose up at an angle that seemed appropriate, set my saddle height, and off I went. It felt ok, but I always felt like I was sliding down the backside of the saddle, and my body did feel like it was trying to get used to the upright position of the bike. Since then, I've been riding my Gus a lot. Many different types of terrain and varying distances. It's a joy to ride of course, and has been extremely comfortable otherwise from the get-go. i love it.

However, something else started coinciding with my time on Gus; a nagging lower back ache that seemed to be at its worse following a ride, and continuing for a day or two afterwards. I recently took 5 days off the bike and experienced no back pain during that time. It was then that I started to wonder if it was all related to the saddle angle. This past week, I started experimenting with setting my saddle up the same way it is on all my other bikes. The only difference with this bike is that the bars are much higher in relation to the saddle on my other bikes. After a couple of days riding with the newly level saddle (including a 30 mi ride yesterday), I'm experiencing no back pain like I was before. Maybe it's too early to count out coincidence, but something tells me it's not.

So this leads me to question the whole upwards tilt thing as it relates to these types of Riv models and how folks ride them. I know everyone is different, and there's always going to be those who prefer upward tilts, downward tilts, extreme fore / aft, etc. but what exactly is it, physiologically speaking, that skews towards the preference for the upward saddle tilt for an upright riding position? I'm certainly no expert on bike fit, but is there a logical justification for it, other than just personal preference? Has anyone else here had a similar experience? I'm going to keep it this way for a while to see if my hunch continues to bear fruit - fingers crossed.

[Mackenzy Albright]

I think the idea is that brooks have a bit of a "banana sway" and also a bit of where you actually *sit* on the saddle. The further back you sit and the wider, the further back on the "banana" so the higher the now. ie vs a aggressive geometry drop bar bike you would likely sit closer to center and nose down accordingly. I think to a certain extent you're just leveling the saddle to the area that best suits the riding position give or take so you aren't sliding. 

One thing i've really noticed, I think perhaps what you're getting at, is pelvic tilt has a lot to do with your core tension. If you are in an upright position and your sitting in such a way that you don't sufficiently engage your core, (anterior pelvic tilt) i've noticed the tendency is to compensate the pedal *push* by tensing or clenching your back muscles vs proper core engagement and leaving you with a sore back. I think upright bikes can be much touchier - in my experience it seems the slack saddle angle and longer top tube still give you a reach and adjustability to make sure you're in a sweet spot that your core is happy. Ive noticed this position is much easier to obtain on my clementine than on upright converted bikes with steeper geo. 

[Richard Rose]

I was a big doubter of Brooks saddles in general & the nose up thing in particular. But, after fitting a B17 I quite liked it. Except I kept sliding forward - and onto the narrow, uncomfortable part of the saddle. So I started adjusting it nose up in very small increments. I think I have it at just the right amount of tilt as I stay planted on the widest part of the saddle. I now do not slide forward or backward & have zero pressure. Of possible note I am very upright with the Bosco grips 2”-3” above the saddle. The whole thing goes against everything my 50 years of cycling taught me. Also, I had lower back surgery (microdiskectomy) three years ago and my back always improves with a bike ride.

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On Nov 15, 2022, at 6:05 PM, Brian Turner <brok...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Bill Schairer]

I always thought I tilted my Brooks saddles up just a bit.  They look tilted.  But then I put a level on them out of curiosity and they were all actually level.  Point being, maybe all those saddles that appear to be tilted up in the pictures aren't actually?  Maybe that banana sway creates a bit of an optical illusion?

Bill S

San Diego

[Brian Turner]

I should mention, I’m normally a leather saddle guy. I have a variety of Brooks and Berthoud saddles; one Brooks being about 15 years old and has a distinct broken-in sag to it, but the saddle itself is still “level”.

The saddle on my Gus is a Cambium, which may factor into it. It’s not my first Cambium, but the first I’ve tried running with a slight upward angle. Perhaps one of my seasoned leather saddles would’ve been a better choice from the start?

On Nov 15, 2022, at 9:05 PM, Bill Schairer <comm...@gmail.com> wrote:

I always thought I tilted my Brooks saddles up just a bit.  They look tilted.  But then I put a level on them out of curiosity and they were all actually level.  Point being, maybe all those saddles that appear to be tilted up in the pictures aren't actually?  Maybe that banana sway creates a bit of an optical illusion?

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[Scott Luly]

Not sure if this is even relevant to this discussion, but as I was reading this thread this came to mind. It's a picture of part of the front of a Brooks saddle package.

What's "angled" mean? Back or seat position? Nose up 60 degrees would be ummm...regionally offensive, no?

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[Richard Rose]

Yes, that (Cambium) seems suspect for sure.

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On Nov 15, 2022, at 9:20 PM, Brian Turner <brok...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Slin]

@Scott - the angle on the diagram refers to the rider's back :) 

@Brokebike - I have heard that Cambium saddles are different from the Brooks leather saddles and meant to be set up horizontally. Angling it upwards might have caused your pelvis to tilt back causing you to hunch over in the lower back, or something like that)

[Roberta]

I also tilt my Brooks up to keep me from sliding towards the nose.  Angling too much gets me in the front, especially if forget to unweight at a pothole or bump (ouch! ). I find there’s a narrow opportunity for angle perfection.   I look at pictures of my bike and I think the upward tilt is highly exaggerated.  So the pics you’re seeing might be the same. 

I got my first  Brooks, B17, when I got my Joe Appaloosa and went on my first (ever) 20 mile ride. Oh, my back hurt!  I even posted about it on the forum. I switched to a Flyer so the springs took the shock, not my back.  Much better. Over the years, I replaced the Flyer and the back pain didn’t come back, but I was really happy with the Flyer. Perhaps my back is stronger or I’m sitting differently or the tilt is different. 

If one of the saddles you like is for more upright riding, like a B17, try that.   I tried a Cambium and didn’t like it.

Roberta

[J S]

I am no stranger to back pain, have had it for over 30 years and 3 back surgeries. I ride my brooks level but not because of back pain but other issues as knee and leg pain and tilting the saddle up gives me numbness.  I do ride my saddle lower than my bars which for me makes sense. .  Also your TT length maybe different on a Riv, I would bet it is so take that into consideration.  You may need a shorter stem. 

Good luck, play around to find a solution. 

[Eric Daume]

My interpretation of the Brooks’ package is that it is identifying saddles by the riders back angle, not specifying a tilt. 

Eric

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[Ted Durant]

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 5:05:37 PM UTC-6 brok...@gmail.com wrote:

So this leads me to question the whole upwards tilt thing as it relates to these types of Riv models and how folks ride them. I know everyone is different, and there's always going to be those who prefer upward tilts, downward tilts, extreme fore / aft, etc. but what exactly is it, physiologically speaking, that skews towards the preference for the upward saddle tilt for an upright riding position? 

As you say, everyone is different. I have a couple of compression fractures, T8 and T12, and a history of some low back pain. My experience has been 1) I very much prefer saddles with a dip from the nose to the tail, though I wouldn't describe it as a banana curve; 2) the more upright the riding position, the more I want the nose tilted upward; 3) if it feels like you are constantly having to push yourself back on the saddle, tilt the nose up a bit; 4) a little change makes a big difference; 5) pelvic angle is really important, and saddle height, saddle fore-aft, and handlebar distance are all tightly connected with saddle tilt to define the comfort and efficiency of your position; 6) core strength is hugely important; and 7) the right fit is very dependent on how much power you are generating while riding. When it's set up correctly, I feel better on the bike than I do off the bike.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Brian Turner]

I suppose I didn't expect the rubber Brooks Cambium vs. a leather Brooks (or other similar brand leather saddle) could be making the difference here, but that's a good point. Personally, I prefer leather, but I don't see a lot of difference in the pliability and cush of the rubber in the Cambium saddles vs. leather. The biggest thing I can think of is the ability of the leather to conform over time, whereas the Cambiums just kind of spring back into their usual shape when you're not riding them. I'm running a carved version on my Gus (although I also have a standard Cambium). I feel like the carved version has a bit more give because of the cut-out.

Thanks everyone for the input! That's what I get for going against my instincts and my experience with saddles. I blindly read some posts from Rivendell that said "set your bike up THIS way" and took that as gospel along with all the photos I had been seeing of similar setups - without starting from a familiar point first, then adjusting from there. To further this experiment, I'm going to put one of my leather saddles on and level it up, then see if it feels like it needs any adjustment. I've only been riding the Cambium, so it may make a difference.

[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 2:20:50 PM UTC-6 brok...@gmail.com wrote:

I suppose I didn't expect the rubber Brooks Cambium vs. a leather Brooks (or other similar brand leather saddle) could be making the difference here, but that's a good point. 

I would expect a difference between Cambium and leather. The Cambium has a different shape, with none of the drop that the leather Brooks saddles have. On a Brooks B17 (or other leather) saddle, even with a moderate amount of nose-up tillt, the rear of the saddle is still level or even angled down-forward. On a Cambium, any nose-up tilt also has the rear of the saddle tilted up.

[Mackenzy Albright]

I cant remember, but i *THINK* the cambium has more rail real estate for fore and aft than the B17 design as well - for the most part I just slam the B17 back fairly nosed up. I dont think I have my C17 all the way back - tilted up a few degrees from level. It works well for me. Also a thing of to note is the leather flexes a bit when you sit, the cambium doesn't really. 

[Brian Turner]

You're right... a bit more rail length on the Cambiums as the Brooks rails are notoriously short. This, along with the thickness of the leather, is one of the reasons why I really love the Berthoud saddles, but I still have a few B17 Specials that fit me like an old baseball glove, and I would never part with them.

The angle of your C17 in the photo of your Clementine was basically the same kind of angle I was running on my Cambium when I was experiencing the back pain.

[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 2:50:35 PM UTC-6 Mackenzy Albright posted a photo of his Riv with a Cambium saddle

Interesting - from that angle it looks like the Cambium has some dip to it. All the other photos I've seen make it look like it runs straight along the top from nose to tail.

[Mackenzy Albright]

I think there is a small ducktail effect at the back of the saddle. It's quite old (it might be an early first generation) I wouldn't doubt if there's some stretch or sagg from years if use. You can see where I sit on the saddle as it's a bit more worn in the area. 

I may have just won the lottery with my personal fit. I also feel like the boscomoose feel like they were designed for the bike (werent they?) Everything just kind of settled into place on this build quite intuitively. 

I wanted to originally put a b17 on it  and I may still but it just works well at the moment. To be fair I haven't really ridden more than 20-30k with this setup. hopefully ill get some longer day rides soon. 

[Patrick Moore]

Is your saddle a new one and a Brooks?

I used a great many different kinds of saddle before I settled on my choice (the original Flite) including many Brooks models. I found that Brooks saddles (and possibly Ideals and others of the type; I used mostly Brookses) require both more tilt and a more finely adjusted tilt to be comfortable than say Flites or Turbos or San Marcoses. In fact, I could not get the tilt just right on the one Brooks road bike saddle -- Pro -- that I found otherwise comfortable, and I finally got rid of it.

So, between tilt and bars much higher than before, it's not surprising that you started feeling things you didn't feel before.

Note too that large changes in bar height or saddle-to-bar position can change the pressure on back, shoulders, arms, hands; in particular I've found that sufficient saddle setback is necessary for my back and upper body comfort; so with shorter rails, a Brooks saddles might end up in a position that is not the best for comfort.

Lastly, personal preference is everything in saddle choice and setup!

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Patrick Moore

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[ascpgh]

I find that aside from my preferred riding posture and the angle it produces in my lower back, the tilt on my saddles has to do with each saddle, accounting for design differences and age/wear. My saddle choices are more of a result of my preferred posture and fit on the bike rather than how my brain appreciates any saddle (Thanks Deb, the Rivetress at Rivet Cycleworks for the warranty that lets a buyer perfect the fit, even if it means changing models!) I move fore and aft as I accommodate the varying effort of riding more than I do from pedaling out of the saddle, probably compounded because I don't shift for every brief change of effort my route implies unless it's going to be a long climb or surface change. I guess that's why I'm fine with 9sp if the range is good.

If I find the actual fore and aft dimension of my sit bone movement and the place it occurs on the saddle I discovered that all of my over thought adjustments are almost always such that this range of motion always ends up level, independant of the rest of the saddle's resultant attitude. The cross section of the saddle and it's decreasing radius of that sit bone perch range is taken into account as does the degree of "hammocking" from cantle to nose in the side view. Three bikes ending up the same way:

My most hammocked saddle, B-17 Honey Special, OE to my '02 Rambouillet. Age has increased the slung nature of the leather billet, sit bone range remains horizontal by incremental uptilt of the nose over 20 years. 

Newest, flattest saddle, Rivet Pearl, slotted

The sacrificial commuter and a base model B-17, circa '09

What has ended up working for me, reversely engineered by observation. Over the years I have overthought this junction of me to saddle and thoughtful observation of results has been helpful. I can now slap a saddle on nearly any bike and get the fit and heighth for my legs' pedaling in ten minutes or less with this understanding.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 6:05:37 PM UTC-5 brok...@gmail.com wrote:

[Ted Durant]

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 7:21:55 AM UTC-6 ascpgh wrote:

If I find the actual fore and aft dimension of my sit bone movement and the place it occurs on the saddle I discovered that all of my over thought adjustments are almost always such that this range of motion always ends up level, independant of the rest of the saddle's resultant attitude.

Yes! I hadn't thought about that before, but as I was doing a 60-mile ride yesterday I realized the same thing. My preferred tilt of a saddle puts the low spot in the center of the fore-aft range where I ride, typically pushed back a bit going up hills. 

[Mackenzy Albright]

you know, one more quick note on my ride into work today. I've noticed on a slacker seat tube bike in a "more upright" position - i do run the saddle height just a touch lower than a steeper ST counterpart. maybe ~1/4 to 3/8 of an inch. 

ive noticed while fitting new bikes sometimes dialing the height can also effect the lower back, reach an STA pending