In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires

[Garth]

 

 I've been riding my Franklin Reynolds 531ST custom from from '99 a whole lot lately..... man I like that bike. I had the 62 c-c frame made with a 62cm TT and 46cm chainstays. I originally used the Dirt Drop bars from Nitto but now use an Albatross 56cm steel. 36/46 Origin8 crank and Sachs 7sp. 13-32 freewheel.

 speaking of big tires and all ... well riddle me this Batman how this bike literally just floats over patch paved and cruddy washed out gravel roads with not so fancy 33mm Forte Metro ST tires that were about $15 .... and my Bombadil regardless of the tires I've used even at very low pressure is jarring as heck ? Exact same wheels builds on both. It's also easier for me to maintain my line and speed with the road bike up steep washed out backwoods gravel roads also, corrections are wholly intuitive and effortless. Watching the fork flex like crazy over bumpy roads is also fun !

I could only "guess" it has a whole lot to do with the tubing and it's design I suppose. Regardless, it's great and even though I've not yet received my Suzie it has me rethinking the whole thing. I "hope" the Susie is a whole lot more vertically resilient than the Bomba. But those Hilly frames are a once in a lifetime "try" for me though. If not, I'll have another road kinda bike made. Does Reynolds even make 531 anymore ?

Also, a wider tire is just wider, not necessarily better or worse. I love narrow tires as I grew up riding them so it's quite intuitive for me. I rode many a pairs of Specialized Touring Turbo 27x 1/8 or 1/4. Those are what I knew as "road tires" even before I got into road racing tires which were even narrower. There is such a distinct feel, a precision that gets lost in wider tires from all the bikes I've ridden. I've tried some wider tires on my road bike and it just felt odd. It seems pretty obvious to me that a frame that is quite compliant doesn't need overly wide tires to ride "soft" and cushy.

Then there's the simplicity of double crank and the ease of which to throw on various parts. I also had cantilevers put on the frame and use Suntour XC Pro's, and they are outstanding, I've never had such a effective brake. It's also darn light to me, even with the heavy duty Phil/Mavic wheels that are on it.

Hooray for road-tire bikes ! 

[Joe Bernard]

I had a Roadini for a while with 33mm Jack Brown's, and a Seven ti frame with 28 something-or-others. They were great fun in a particular way fatter-tire bikes can't duplicate. I wouldn't pick that vibe as my only bike, but I like em!

[Deacon Patrick]

I am constantly amazed how my QB with RH Stellacomb knobbies is nearly as plush a ride as my Hunqapillar (with liteskin Schwalbe 2.1" Racing Ralphs) and GBW with 2.8" Nobby Niks. Fork flex is a huge part of this. Viewing the Hunqapillar as parallel to your Bomba, I don't like any tires but the liteskin on it ... not a supple ride.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

The Franklin sounds intriguing; can you post a photo?

Your experience may well be due to tubing differences; I know that my Matthews, built from thinwall, heat treated stuff compared to the excessively stout tubing of the original Fargo, and with a delicately shaped "French" curve instead of the Fargo's girder legs, rolls smoother over small bumps -- washboard, eg -- with the same wheels and tires. But tires and casings and widths and pressures can also cause this sort of difference.

My own experience with tires fat and skinny -- from 19 mm (labeled; this was at a time when I naively thought (1) skinnier was faster; (2) labeled width was the actual width, and (3) labeled max press was the best press) to 65 mm actual width (60 mm Big Apple regulars on 50 mm SnoCat SLs) -- is that tire pressure, casing, and width all play a tortured, complex, and often inscrutable ballet or fugue or minuet together, and that -- wala!! -- sometimes fatter tires feel **harder** than skinnier tires, and sometimes thinskin, supple tires feel **harder** than thickwall utility tires. I'll explain.

I'll start with an anecdote. For years I rode 26" X1" (559 X 22 mm actual on my skinny rims) Specialized Turbos at 110 psi, later, wising up, reducing that to 80/90 f/r. **These felt cushiony and smooth** as long as you were riding over chipseal or small cracks and not our 6" to 8" expansion cracks. OTOH, 35 mm Fatboys pumped to sidewall max (try that with a Blackburn Airstick, 1990 model!) bounced you around on all but the slickest pavement. Even reducing the Fatboys, and later similarly wide Kojaks to 50 psi: sure, the 35s (32 actual) handled big cracks better, but over rough, worn pavement? Nope, the 22s were at least as smooth if not smoother.

Reasons? Well, suppleness for one thing, but also, tire pressure tradeoff. The 22s at ~90 were so skinny, as well as supple, that they "gave" at each little bump. The downside? Pinch flat and rim damage if you hit something too big too hard. I personally am a delicate rider and never got pinch flats on those tires, even with 40 lb rear loads (broke a spoke or 2, though, with aluminum nipples and Revolutions). The Kojaks were smoother than the Fatboys, but to get the same cush, you had to reduce the pressure to almost -- **almost** -- wallowy softenss. 32 mm Paselas, light 240 grams, even worse; soft and they bounced; no bounce, and they jarred.

I recall swapping the 60 mm Big Apples, thick stout things, for very supple Furious Freds (60 mm/50 mm, 900 grams versus 360 grams. 800 grams for the BA "lite" model) and being disappointed that the FFs seemed to be as harsh over bumps as the BAs. The reason was that, with the paper-thin sidewalls, I had to pump them to at least 18 psi, while I often rode the BAs with thicker sidewalls at 15. The balance between "soggy" and "harsh" was a difficult one to achieve.

I switched to 60 mm Big Ones -- 90 grams heavier than the 50 mm FFs at 450 grams. Again, pump them hard enough to not lose control on fastish pavement corners, and they are surprisingly harsh over bumps -- the minimum is about 18 psi, tho' I usually run them at 19-21 for less wallowing in pavement corners.

Upshot of all this driveling: you can put fat tires on a bike and pump them to the minimum psi to prevent wallow or bouncing, and you may find that this minimum pressure makes them harsher than you'd think, to the point where, in certain situations, a 32 mm supple tire at a pressure just high enough to avoid bouncing or pinch flats actually feels softer over certain bumps than a fatter tire at a lower pressure.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[ted]

Love my road bikes, also love my Bombadil.

Logged lots of miles on ~21 or 22mm tubulars, was on 26mm tires today. Yep, ride great. Probably wouldn't choose them for riding over the ridge in my local open space though.

Yes wide tires are just wider, well wider and taller. The wider tends to mean they sink in less on soft surfaces. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. The taller helps to avoid pinch flats at lower pressures. They also need lower pressure to give the same spring rate. At 20 psi the 50mm tires on my Bombadil are quite compliant. At 30 not so much. But at 20 psi short of going fast over bad deep dried out bovine hoof prints i'd never characterize its ride as "jarring as heck". Clearly your millage differs though.

[Philip Williamson]

I’ve recently built up two bikes with road-sized (26mm-ish) tires, and I love them. A Bontrager RoadLite 1x11, and a Pinarello cross bike set up as a flat bar singlespeed. So fun and sharp!

Philip
SantaRosa, CA

[Craig Montgomery]

Garth, I'd like to know the geometry on your Franklin with 531ST. And a photo. Then I'll tell you of my epiphany (similar to yours I think). Nothing to do with tires. 

Craig in Tucson

On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote:

[Mark Roland]

Lots of variables to consider--frame geometries and tubing/layups, tire width, construction, pressures; rider style and weight; terrain and road conditions; position of the planets, and so on.

I like wide mostly these days, but getting on some skinny rubber is fun, and it's about the difference. You can't appreciate one without the other, and they are both fun--all the tens of thousands of people riding on 25mm tires can't be in that much pain!

[Garth]

Here's some photos from today.

The frame is a 62cm center to center, 62cm top tube, 46cm chainstays, 72.5 seat tube angle and 72 head tube angle. I'm not sure of the rake but it has more than it may appear because of where the bend is. The wheelbase is 44" inches, just 3/4" less than my 60cm Bomba. The front-center is around 66cm as I recall. The bottom bracket drop I think I measured around 7cm. The saddle to bar reach and height is also very similar.

[Garth]

You rode a Susie too at RBWHQ, yes ?  Was it at least somewhat vertically compliant, springy, flexy ... you know there's a million names for it I suppose !

[Garth]

Like you DP, a jittery ride, for lack of an all encompassing term, just doesn't work for me either. That's likely why I've preferred road riding so much as I've never had a suitable frame or maybe tires for that matter for my local not-so-maintained township "roads". I'm going to try out some new tires if I can ever decide on some.

[Garth]

What are your 50mm tires Ted ?  It seems pressure does play a large role in all this !

[Garth]

Yes Philip .. sharp is a good word .... like a sharp .5mm mechanical pencil in contrast to a magic marker ! 

[Garth]

Yes ...nothing to do with tires on this frame... I've had Specialized Armadillo(aptly maned as they were stiff !) tires on it way back and even then the ride was good. t seems starting with suitable tubing and design has more to do with the ride than simply wheels alone.  I posted the geo and stuff below.

[Garth]

Yea Mark .... like ye' ol' rabbit hole ... and the irresistible temptation to take a peek, "what's in the box ?"...  and then you find yourself sucked in it. Until ..... well .... until you don't !

[Garth]

 

Patrick your story reminds me of how my brother would recount all his training in the Air Force to work on F-16's and later on commercial jetliners. When asked how such and such "really works", there some point when all you can say is "it's PFM". Pure f'n magic. Beyond explanation and reason.  Ahahahaahahaaaa !   I love that term , as when it comes down to everything of this world and how "everything works", is to me ... P F M  !!!!   In a wondrous way !

[John G.]

My favorite type of bike! The Regular Ass Road Bike! Zippy tubing, comfy geo for all day hustling, clearance for 32mm tires, bars just a hair beneath the saddle height. Everyone needs one. Or, in my case, 4: my secondhand Weigle, my Roadeo by way of Mike Godwin, my Mercian Superlight, and my Peugeot with 531 Professional and the really dumb front braze-on front derailleur.

I'm a huge fan of these types of bikes, and the Roadeo is an outstanding example of one.

[ted]

My Bombadil has Pacenti Quasi-Moto tires. I would think any non uber stout 2 inch tire would behave much the same in this respect.

I have another more roadish bike with 47mm tires (wtb byway) I run at ~25psi when I want things cushy. That one does fairly well off road as well.

Keep in mind at 20 psi, 2 psi is 10%. Do the fat bike crowd run pressures down in the single digits?

My rules of thumb are:

   If your tires aren't soaking up bumps the way you want, lower the pressure, then lower it some more until they are. (too low may not be low enough)

   If you start getting pinch flats in the process, get bigger tires. (got the first classic pinch flat of my life yesterday, guess I should try 28mm tires on that bike)

   If you feel like your tires have too much rolling resistance, shop for more supple tires.

I think that approach can produce satisfactory results for a lot of folks without going beyond 28-33 mm tires. Despite the current popularity of "wider is better" and asking "how wide is too wide?" there can be wisdom in asking "how wide is wide enough?".

Typically it seems like tires are so much more compliant than even "std. diameter" thin wall tubing, that softer tires dominate wrt vertical compliance. Sounds like for you, not so much. First time for everything I suppose.

I expect you are aware there are folks who only like more flexible extra thin walled "standard" diameter tubed frames. Perhaps you do too. It's good to know what one likes.

I hope the stress levels in your fork blades are well below the fatigue limit for steel. Also that's a tall head tube, perhaps some of the flex in your fork is in the steerer tube?

Have you seen the video of Hincapie in Paris Roubaix sitting bolt upright with his disconnected bars in his hand as he veered into the ditch and separated his shoulder?

I think the handling of my Bombadil is somewhat different than my other bikes, I like it a lot for riding the hills in my local open spaces. Prefer other bikes for riding on roads though.

[Jason Fuller]

Funny, I've been wondering the same sort of thing with my Hillborne. In the dozens of bikes I've owned over the years, none have had this magical ability to just gingerly float over everything like the Hillborne.  I had the exact same build (incl wheels and tires) on a Soma Grand Randonneur previous to the Sam, and while that bike rode nicely, it did not have this quality. My Clem, despite much larger tires, does not have this quality--and both have nearly identical CS lengths (455 vs. 460). 

The only thing left that it could be are the seat stays, but it's hard to imagine that they're doing this much. It has to be a culmination of a bunch of small contributors, I expect. 

[Garth]

I agree Jason ..... such Omniscience is "not my department" so to speak !  I'm "hoping" that the much longer stays and front end of the Susie exhibits some sort of magic carpet float. It should in "theory" but yeah they said the same thing about the Titanic and icebergs didn't they !

[Garth]

Yeah Ted it seems I do prefer frames that have some flex in the right places. The 531ST tubes are intended for touring, slightly thicker wall diameter than the regular 531. OF course I know nothing of designing bikes, but thankfully the designer/builder does and he would not do something he wasn't comfortable with. Tall head tube, yes, I've seen taller ! Fork flex is in the blades.

In regards to the tubing, 531 seems to have a kind of PFM status... pure f'n magic for their ride characteristics.

https://www.bretonbikes.com/homepage/cycling-article-blog/87-reynolds-531-tubing-the-cycle-tourists-friend

My takeaway from all this is that in this case a "lively" frame will feel that way with large of range of tire quality.... whereas a frame that isn't so lively, even with specifically "supple" tires isn't going to compensate for it's not so liveliness. Improve the ride, yes.

I can see how those that have both a lively frame and supple tires would find it blissful ! 

At 165lbs or so I would have to go really low on the Bomba to get a pinch flat as I naturally ride "light" over things. I have Big Ben 50 on there now @25-30 psi. I'll try lowering them off the pavement and see how it goes. As for other tires .... man it's like pie in the sky. They all look good from afar ! Ahahaha !

In regards to George's mishap, I've heard him account what happened a couple of times and what failed was the Trek frames carbon steering tube. He was trying to land softly to the left when it was happening but since the failure happened so fast he was a mere passenger. This was the early days of carbon frame construction.

[Craig Montgomery]

My takeaway from all this is that in this case a "lively" frame will feel that way with large of range of tire quality.... whereas a frame that isn't so lively, even with specifically "supple" tires isn't going to compensate for it's not so liveliness. Improve the ride, yes. 

     Bingo! That's the epiphany. And that's the case for handbuilt frames by master builders; AND looking for vintage frames built by master builders. You have,Garth ol' boy, a full-on old school touring frame of the highest order (in materials and craftsmanship) built by someone who knew what they were doing. That's why it rides the way it does, on the tires (which don't matter that much overall) you choose for it. 

     Nobody I know of makes these things anymore except for a few of the remaining old English companies like Mercian or Ellis Briggs or one offers like Kevin Sayles. Or in France, the Alex Singer shop. Back in those days (1999? THOSE days? Gimme a break!...sorry) about the only tires available were 27x1 1/4" or 1 3/8" or 700x32's or maybe 35's (we're talking touring now...not toodling around on pavement in urban environments). So the frame had to be so masterfully built that it would allow the bike tourist to hit rough pavement and dirt roads without him being bludgeoned to death. Without having his gonads ground into cottage cheese. 

 Hence, our bikes Garth:

     Here's my '99 Jack Taylor Tourist (essentially an unchanged design since the 40's). Almost but not quite the spittin' image of yours. 72STA/72.5HTA with a fork rake that ends somewhere just outside of China. These were standard touring designs for decades. Loaded or unloaded, when you hit the rough stuff with a bike like this, it was like jumping onto a very lusciously firm water bed (Oh gawd I'm dating myself again). Don't get me wrong, I really like my Black Mountain Monster Cross with its light tubing and fat Gravel Kings. But at the end of a long rough ride (esp. loaded touring) it doesn't leave me feeling as "refreshed" as the traditional Taylor on it's 700x35 Paselas.  

 "I can see how those that have both a lively frame and supple tires would find it blissful!"   We should have been living in England or France 60 or 70 years ago when this was common knowledge. 

Craig "Old and In the Way"(Tony Rice/Jerry Garcia-1973) in Tucson

[Joe Bernard]

Garth, I'm not qualified to address the "springiness" factor of the Susie from one trip around the building, but it was definitely floaty and fun! Fat tires do neat stuff, too.

[Mark Roland]

Even with the same tubing and geo, a different size frame will have different characteristics as far as liveliness. I bought a Woodrup Giro for a tour of Tuscany a dozen or so years ago, all 531ST. One of the few bikes I ever actively disliked, felt sluggish and dead. But it was a 57cm frame, so naturally going to be stiffer. And the tubes are quite a bit thicker, with typical 531 tubeset of the day having a top tube with a .8 belly, and ST 1.0.

On the other hand, my 531 Ron Kitching is a superb rider. And is getting a long-awaited, well-deserved rebuild...soon. It will be fun!

[Garth]

Well thank you Craig for your input.  Like riding on water ! I remember Bruce Lee saying "be like water" .... of which there is neither offense or defense as such is Life ! 

I find it a relief realizing this about the frames. To start there with a frame suited to one's own sensibilities of what riding is all about. The Truth is never late. 

Also I realize how much I like road bike parts as mtb parts have gone off the reservation never to return, so to speak. 

You know I really do love riding through the rolling countryside here in Ohio, especially around the farms with massive green pastures and the indescribably fresh air that we have around here. I really feel at home in the countryside. Call it Ohio, England, Minnesota .... ahahahha ... it's all the same to me .... perfect is perfect. 

Jack Trumbull the builder/owner of his brand Franklin frames is still there and I've contemplated having him build me another frame. Now that I've realized some oops and umms of details I wasn't aware of back then, it's new frame day !  I'm pretty sure he still uses some Reynolds tubing, whatever is available. I like him as he's rather no frills. He repairs any brand of steel frame and does his own painting.  

I don't know what I'll do about the Susie but it'll work out in some wonderful way. 

[Fryfam]

Super Tourist tubing or not, no doubt that long TT enhances the flex-magic for your 165-lb, long torso-ed body geo. nice ride!

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 2:01:01 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote:

[Jock Dewey]

Impressive, Craig. 

Man, you keep that sweet baby ready-to-go. All packed, just let go the toe-strap & you out the door in search of some tumbleweed to camp under.

BEST / Jock Dewey / Athens, GA

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 8:07:41 PM UTC-4, Craig Montgomery wrote: