Suggestions for better braking?

[Ben Mihovk]

Good morning!

I picked up a 2013 Sam in late October and LOVE it for a billion different reasons.

However...one area where I really prefer my Atlantis is braking. I have the Shimano DXR MX70 levers and v-brakes on the Atlantis and I feel like the stopping power is incredible. This is my commuter bike, set up with chocos for upright riding with lots of stops.

Sam has Shimano Tiagra levers and the Tektro r559 brakes. They just feel a million times weaker. I can stop, but it's a much more gradual experience than the v-brakes. The braking feels squishy. Like...I pull the levers and the pads hit the rims, but I can keep pulling the levers and there's just not much that happens in terms of stopping. It's almost as if not enough force gets transferred into the pads.

The brakes are set up correctly, slight toe-in, arm that moves up toward the rim has pad touching at bottom of braking surface, arm that moves down toward rim has pad at top of braking surface. I think they contact the rim with the appropriate amount of movement of the lever, too.

I'm about to re-do all cables and housings (even though it kind of kills me to undo one of Mark's bar wrap jobs). Any tips on getting a little better braking out of this setup, or are the r559s just going to not be as good as v-brakes no matter how nicely they're set up?

Thanks for any and all thoughts!

Ben in Omaha 

[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi Ben,

For rim brakes, it's hard to beat the power of V-brakes. 

Side-pull R559 is at a further disadvantage because of the arm length. They worked ok on my AHH, but I changed to Paul centerpulls, which seem to have more power. I recall reading that VO's Grand Cru brakes work well-- perhaps because they're beefier than R559. 

(Also consider the brake pads. Riv seems to like the "ebike" Kool Stop pad.)

Good luck!

shoji

Arlington MA

[Tom M]

+1 on replacing the stock pads, which are bad, especially in the rain. I replaced mine with the Yokozuna pads Rivendell sells, but I'm sure the Kool Stop would be an improvement as well.

Tom in Alexandria, VA

[Ben Mihovk]

Thanks for the thoughts!

I have the Yokozuna salmon pads on the v-brakes on the Atlantis and I love them. I might try replacing the Kool Stop pads with those.

I just looked at the Grand Cru brakes and am VERY tempted. Definitely have a stronger/stiffer look to them than the R559. One reviewer on VO's website says that they could fit an inflated 35mm tire through the pads when the brakes are released. 38mm is as low as I'd go on this bike, so those brakes (while definitely good looking and probably better performing than the R559s) might be out of the question for me. 

Ben

[Ben Mihovk]

Sorry...the VO reviewer said the Grand Cru brakes could not fit a fully inflated 35mm tire. 

[Ryan]

VO Grand Cru brakes are good. Jan Heine reviewed them very favorably here. Not dead cheap but they're good looking and they work well. I replaced some Super Record brakes with these paired with TRP RRL's  and I have no complaints.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/product-test-velo-orange-grand-cru-brakes/ 

I 

[Ben Mihovk]

Ryan,

Thanks for that...if Jan likes them, I'm sure I would, too. His one gripe, though, is that they don't open up wide enough to clear a 31mm tire. I take off my front wheel to transport my bike to trails...I guess I could just deflate/inflate when I do that. I'll give it some thought.

Thanks again,

Ben

[Garth]

Ben,  If you have stock Tektro pads replace them as I've never met one worth a darn. Any mentioned are fine. Also cable housing end finishes into the ferrules, is everything flush ? What's the rim to pad distance ?  Check all that before setting out to tear your bars apart !

In the real world many people use that brake and find it works well so don't give up so easily !

Never accept as a condition for wheel removal deflating a tire, that'll grow old real quick.

On Monday, December 20, 2021 at 10:02:43 AM UTC-5 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:

[Ben Mihovk]

Hey Garth,

I have Kool Stop salmon pads in now. Everything on the bike looks set up perfectly with housing and such...it's an original Riv build so I'm assuming it was done expertly. 

Rim to pad distance...well, I guess I can't find a really good way to tell how close they should be. I know I can use the barrel adjuster to get the pads a little closer...is there such thing as too close as long as the wheel has room to move without rubbing when it flexes while being stressed? 

While the hassle of tearing up the bars is something I'd like to avoid, I know that at some point I want dark blue Newbaums with clear shellac on this bike. Might as well do it now!

Ben

[Ben Mihovk]

I should clarify on pad distance...

I've used the Calvin from Park Tool method of determining pad clearance by how far back I can pull the brake lever. The pads touch the rim when pulling the lever almost halfway back. The levers are at least 1" from the hoods when the pads are firmly in contact with the rims. I will try getting them a touch closer before I ride home today and see how that goes, though.

Thanks again!

Ben

[Jeremy Till]

Unfortunately the VO Grand Cru brakes are 47-57mm reach and the sidepull Sams were designed for 55-76mm reach brakes. The nomenclature gets confusing because for a while the former was the spec for "long reach" caliper brakes, until the latter came along. Following Paul Components, who used to make versions of the Racer brake for both reach specifications, I usually refer to 47-57mm brakes as "medium" or "mid reach" and 55-76mm as "long reach" now, but I'm sure that's not universal across the industry. 

As others have noted, in 55-76mm reach the options are very limited, with the longer-reach Paul Racer (distinguished from the mid-reach Racer M) being the usual upgrade if Tektros aren't cutting it. Unfortunately, the longer-reach Racers are now out of production so you're looking for used or NOS ones. I think Dia-Compe also makes some centerpull options but I'm skeptical if they would be an upgrade over Tektros. 

Personally, as much as I respect Grant, my feeling is that 47-57mm is pretty much the reach limit for center-mount caliper brakes; anything longer than that and you're really battling flex in the long arms, and would be better off going to cantilevers or brazed-on long reach centerpulls like the Rene Herse or Grand Bois MAFAC clones.  

-Jeremy Till

Sacramento, CA

[David Person]

I second (or third) the suggestion to switch to Yokozuna salmon pads.

[Ben Mihovk]

I appreciate your thoughts, Jeremy. I actually find it MUCH more satisfying to hear that there is an inherent flaw or downside to the Tektro brake rather than there being an issue with how I have it set up. 

I'm going to stick with them, refresh cables and housing, and probably grab some Yokozuna pads.

Thanks!

[Joe Bernard]

Agreed with all, it's the brakes, and in your case the Tiagra road levers probably aren't helping, either. 
They were designed with a short-arm dual-pivot Shimano caliper in mind which is a very good skinny-tire brake, those Tektros are long and flexy and not particularly awesome even with decent short-pull flatbar levers. Yokozuna or the ebike pads will indeed help. 

Joe Bernard

[Eric Daume]

Second this. Those long reach calipers are a bad design concept. You can try to make them less bad, but they’ll never have the power of your V brakes.

I won’t buy a frame that takes these brakes anymore (with the possible exception of a fixed gear frame)

Eric

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/d26a0a44-9157-41a9-8003-fed3d4b5c55an%40googlegroups.com.

[fug...@gmail.com]

I had a bike welder braze on posts for v-brakes only on the front of my Bleriot. MUCH better stopping!

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[Mackenzy Albright]

*personal opinion* if you're not racing, have a larger tire, and want low effort braking (and no weight concerns) disc's are hard to beat, especially in wet weather. I have read aaaaallll of Jan and Grants beating the dead pony for rim brakes, but my arthritic fingers enjoy the light action and consistency of discs. Adding disc tabs onto existing frames isn't terribly difficult for a good builder. I've heard its actually easier than setting up post mounts.

[Joe Bernard]

There's also the Campagnolo theory. BITD Campy bikes would notoriously get bad reviews for lousy braking. The company line was they were "speed reducers", you weren't supposed to be able to lock a wheel. I did not buy this line! 

[esoterica etc]

I've got a pair of center-mount Paul Racers with Kool Stop salmon thinline pads actuated by some TRP RRL levers on my rando bike. And although they certainly aren't as powerful as V-brakes, I do feel that the stopping power is pretty comparable to the canti brake setups that I have on other bikes. The Racers do have great modulation, and are much more powerful than the Tektro 559s I've used (with the same TRP RRL levers). It's really a shame that Paul discontinued the Racers, because I'm very impressed with them. Good luck with your brake situation, hope you can find a good solution. Cheers,

~Mark
Raleigh, NC


> On Dec 20, 2021, at 13:00, Jeremy Till <jerem...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately the VO Grand Cru brakes are 47-57mm reach and the sidepull Sams were designed for 55-76mm reach brakes. The nomenclature gets confusing because for a while the former was the spec for "long reach" caliper brakes, until the latter came along. Following Paul Components, who used to make versions of the Racer brake for both reach specifications, I usually refer to 47-57mm brakes as "medium" or "mid reach" and 55-76mm as "long reach" now, but I'm sure that's not universal across the industry.

[Patrick Moore]

+1, and no desire to be controversial, but every desire to share what I have experienced. Disc brakes just work, and work well, even -- this is from my experience, which is limited, of course -- mechanical discs; and even **cheap** mechanical discs, like the -- god knows, I don't: what were the OEMs on the Monocog? But take the ancient, perennial BB7, either road or mtb model. As long as you know to clamp the cable about 1/3 of the way along the actuator arm's travel, Bob's your uncle. 

On the Monocog, I swapped out the flat-bar OEM cheapo discs for Road BB7s, and pull them with high MA (thus, bad for the purpose, but I had them handy) Shimano 600 AX aero levers thought generic, by-the-foot housing. They work very well: no rubbing until you get mud all over the pads and rotors, and even that for not very long; stop well -- at last as well as any centerpull I've ever used, and certainly better than the expensive Paul cantis on my Matthews 2:1 (more on this in another post*) -- and they're easy to set up (once you know that trick). No, they're not as powerful as V brakes or as easily modulated as good single pivots, but they are fully mid-pack for power, modulation, and ease of setup.

Were I to gin up the gumption to replace the AX levers for some good, low MA non-aero levers, and replace the $0.87 per foot housing with Jagwire or something, they'd work even better. But they work so well as-is that I can't be bothered.

Now, I've never used full hydraulics, but I do have TRP Hy Rds on the Matthews 1:1. Yes, they are more powerful and easier to set up. They don't modulate much better. But are they twice as good for twice the price? Nope. I got my Hy Rds used for a good price, but I'd be hard put to decide whether the premium in full retail would justify the real world performance compared to BB7s. 

And: discs, mechanical and hybrid, are just so easy to set up!!

* Any suggestions for improving "bite" for the Paul cantis on the Matthews 2:1? Touring rear, Neo Retros front. Salmon Kool Stop pads. Shimano pre-STI Dura Ace 74?? levers. The pads just don't grab the rims strongly, and they're long since broken in. The single pivot (Superbe Pro? RGC?) front on the 1999 gofast grabs harder than either f or r Paul. Ideas?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4d1611dd-788d-46a3-ba79-22f3543b757fn%40googlegroups.com.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Ryan]

Although in my case, paired with the TRP RRL brake levers with their own QR button  , the Grand Cru brakes clear 32mm Stampede Pass tires I'm using with ease

[lconley]

I have to disagree with the discs being easy to set up. Every time I remove a quick release disc wheel and reinstall it, I have to re-adjust the brake. I understand that that is why they use thru axles now for discs. For a real nightmare, get hydraulic disc brakes and try to bleed all the air out. If you don't get it all out, including the reservoir, every time you lie your bike down or turn it over, you lose your brakes.

Laing

Who it currently installing a quick release mechanical disc brake wheel on the front of his Rivendell Clementine (Crust Clydesdale Fork).

[Garth]

All I can say is Suntour knew how to make brakes. Gawd I miss Suntour as Shimano was always the b-team to them, and still is as far as I'm concerned. I have some low profile XC Pro cantis that are truly superbe in every way, pun intended !  I also have some current low profile Dia Compe 988's that are of similar design and are also superbe.

Not that any of this matters to Ben though !

I laugh how we all like to to throw in our "greatest hits" of stuff we like when given a chance to. We could write forever and a day and it still wouldn't make a dent in all there is to say, about things in every way. .

[Ed Felker]

I have Tiagra levers and R559 brakes on my Bleriot. The braking improved significantly using salmon pads and compressionless housing, specifically, the Jagwire KEB-SL Pro Road. The mushy feeling went away and they have a nice predictable grip. I use the Jagwire EZ-Bend segments that lead into the brake levers.

There is also the Yokozuna Reaction housing but the Jagwire is much easier to cut with regular Park cable cutters. I have the Yokozuna on a bike with Avid BB7 disc brakes and the stuff was a pain to install but those brakes got a lot stronger.

Ed Felker

Washington, DC

On Monday, December 20, 2021 at 10:02:43 AM UTC-5 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:

[Kushan]

Has anyone had any experience with the Dia-Compe 610 Centerpull Brakes or their longer reach cousin? Though I have not tried them personally, I have heard that the Gran Compe variety are stiff and provide better braking power and tire clearance than a caliper brake. Rene Hearse center pull can be another option if cost is not a cocern.

[Fullylugged]

I run the tektro and RBW Silver branded version on 2 bikes and have no issues with them. On downhills, I am in the 30 - 40 mph range often where I live and ride, so stopping power is good to have and I've not felt like I lacked it.  I replaced the original pads with Salmon on one bike and Aztec on another and both are better than factory. A third bike has Mafac Professional Centerpulls and it has greater stopping power than the calipers.  Old school, but works nicely.  I set mine up so that there is very  little lever pull prior to pad contact. I use the Tektro levers on all of these bikes.

[ascpgh]

Not of the reach of your Sam but my Rambouillet was considered to be a pretty far reach bike, specified for the longest reach caliper out there at the time which was a non-group Shimano part. They were fine and I replaced stock pads with something similar when necessary but I was alarmed by a long descent in pouring rain that came up during a local charity ride. It was like there was no braking at all. 

I went beyond different pads and got a set of Paul Racer center pulls center mount version with the salmon pads and all is well. I have to admit I was in the market for more clearance around the tires so I could better size fenders to cover the 32mm tires that I found made the bike handle its best. Midlife crisis for my Ram: new calipers, 32mm RH EL tires and fenders that covered them with adequate clearance and didn't rattle during braking. 

I didn't undo the bars either, just modified the housing run and stop at the seat tube lug and replaced the cable. There's some Rambouillet in the Sam's blood.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Ben Mihovk]

Again, thanks to everyone who chimed in on this thread. I actually particularly love when people start talking about their own situations/solutions, even if they don't apply to me...just because they don't apply now doesn't mean they never will.

Semi-resolution of my original question...

I went ahead and ripped off the tape, installed Sliver2 shifters/pods, new housing and cables, retaped and retwined...

I definitely see some little mistakes in the wrap, but this is my first attempt at a drop bar and I'm pleased as punch. I might redo the drive side tape before I shellac (there are two little gaps on the inside drop and I have the tiniest bit of bar showing under the hood. I also think that dark blue is THE move on this sage green bike. I hated undoing Mark's work, but I think for my first time doing it, it went as well as it could have. Pro tip...if you're not buying the hemp twine Rivendell sells to finish your bar tape, throw away your current twine and order some. Night and day difference in quality and uniformity of thickness on the twine. 

So...did it make a difference in braking?

While I'm still a far cry from the power of V-brakes, I think new cables/housing and freshly set up brakes gave me a little more grab on my ride this morning. I did carefully decrease the pad/rim distance gap to about 1/8" and things are definitely feeling sungger/more secure. I'm still going to replace the Kool Stop with the Yokozuna salmons, though. The kind of riding I generally do with this bike requires VERY little braking power in the first place. If I were going to make this a daily commuter, I'd probably go searching for some Paul's or even try the VO Grand Cru. But...I have a daily commuter that stops on a dime. 

At the end of the day, maybe the changes I made gave me a marginal improvement. Even if so, I have the satisfaction of doing this kind of work on a bike for the first time and the peace of mind knowing that my housing and cables are fresh...and that ain't nothing! 

Thanks again for all your thoughts and feedback!

Ben in Omaha 

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/9fba8402-e50d-4ffc-95af-cafeca8afe4en%40googlegroups.com.

[David Person]

I've found that rims with machined sidewalls (Velocity Dyads and Quills) provide much better breaking than rims that do not have machined sidewalls (VO Voyagers, Grand Bois Papillon).  FWIW.

[Thomas Blak]

Late to the game on this one but I specifically came back to this group because I have always had problems with the braking performance with my Sam and 559 brakes. To put it bluntly this is the worst braking setup I have ever had, though my Brompton is a close second. I have tried almost everything to get the brakes to work, new cables, new housing, new salmon pads, brass ferrules. The only thing I haven't tried is machined sidewall rims which cyclist1959 suggested above. I think the solution for me is a new frame with V brakes.

Eric said it best "Those long reach calipers are a bad design concept." I agree 100%.

[Ben Mihovk]

Yeah, I'm convinced that there's not much I can do to make the braking better. I think the biggest issue for me is that I have the v-brakes as a comparison and it's not even close. I remember going from an old bike with Tektro side pulls to the Atlantis with v-brakes and nearly going over the handlebars the first time I stopped. 

However...it's all a matter of perspective and I think the new cables and housing and such made a small difference. I also did get Yokozuna pads and they absolutely blow the doors off of the Kool Stops I was using. All in all, I'm satisfied with how the bike brakes. Maybe years from now I can get a fork with canti posts and at least run v-brakes on the front wheel...but I have no plans on doing anything like that any time soon.

Ben in Omaha

[Patrick Moore]

If you are going to a builder, why not have the builder add V brake posts on the Sam? Of course, if there are other reasons for a new frame, they please go ahead and report!

I had lowrider brazeons made to my first edition Sam, the one designed more sensibly for V or canti brakes.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/aaa58c28-2cd0-46af-b673-160632dc9fafn%40googlegroups.com.

[Brian Campbell]

As others have suggested the Paul Racer brakes were a big improvement on my AHH vs. the Tektro 559. I have a second bike with the modern Dia Compe 610 brakes and find that they work very well. Might they be an option?

I also recently switched to using compressionless housiing brake/shift kits and felt it helped quite a bit in the braking department for the two bikes I put them on.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I agree, centerpull brakes might be the best option. The Paul Racers should work great, but may require a bit of tire deflation to mount the wheel, depending upon the width of your tires.  Mafac raid or Compass bolt ons should also work equally well, but expensive.  I have not tried the DiaCompe 610s, but that would be a cheap try--much cheaper than a new frame!

Best of luck!

Toshi in Oakland, CA

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/790a6177-5fdc-421d-b852-27b5e7ceaff0n%40googlegroups.com.