Roaduno and the state of single speed bikes

[Edwin W]

I like single speed bikes, many like single speed bikes. The simplicity, the possibility of fixed gear, it is the epitome of biking for me, I think.

I like the idea of the roaduno. So far it looks like it will have 700c/622 wheel size, long reach side pull brakes. Rear facing drop outs. Those are the main factors to think about, because stem length, handlebar and lever type, fenders or not, dynamo or not, are flexible on most bikes.

What is the competition, and what are they offering?

Crust Lightning bolt single speed. 650b wheels with anti posts. 

BMC Monstercross. 700c wheels and cantilever posts. But that has 135mm rear spacing, so not exactly built for single speed.

What else is out there that can take a 38mm (or so) tire with a fender?

Edwin

[Richard Rose]

More particularly, what else is out there with long stays & wheelbase, is fully lugged & has beautiful paint / graphics?

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 2, 2024, at 5:16 PM, Edwin W <dween...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I like single speed bikes, many like single speed bikes. The simplicity, the possibility of fixed gear, it is the epitome of biking for me, I think.

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[Bill Lindsay]

"BMC Monstercross. 700c wheels and cantilever posts. But that has 135mm rear spacing, so not exactly built for single speed."

Not true.  All BMC Monstercrosses that have ever been released have had 130mm spacing.  Only the latest revision, which has not been delivered yet, has 132.5mm spacing, to allow either 130 or 135mm hubs.  

The Surly Ultra New is an excellent choice for a 130mm O.L.D. singlespeed, but so is the Problem Solvers Cog and Carrier product for your existing cassette hub: https://problemsolversbike.com/products/cog-carrier

Bill "all of the above" Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[DavidP]

Hi Edwin, 

A few more I'm aware of:

Crust Florida Man - 130mm spacing, track ends, removable canti-posts, 27.5x2.4 listed max so 55mm tires with a fender should be fine

Wabi Thunder - 120mm spacing, track ends, 700x44 (conservative?) max

Handsome Devil - 132.5mm spacing, semi-horizonal dropouts, 700x45ish max - mine has 38mm Gravel Kings with VO Zeppelin 52mm fenders but the tires measure smaller than stated size (~36mm). I'm using the Surly 130mm hub Bill mentioned on this bike to get a fixed gear option, but my other single speeds use single speed cogs and spacers on cassette hubs.

-Dave

[lucky...@gmail.com]

Dare I…come in here with the Squid…?

On Feb 2, 2024, at 15:01, DavidP <dphi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Eric Daume]

The Surly Steamroller can take a 38mm tire, but no fender.

The sadly out of production Cross Check could do a 38mm with a fender.

Eric

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[Arthur Mayfield]

Not what else is out there, but what should be—Rivendell should bring back the Frank Jones. 700c, sidepull brakes, 120mm rear hub, fully lugged, fits up to 42mm tires (I have 32s with PDW fenders). I have three Rivs (FJ, Platy, caliper Sam), but my FJ is what I think of when I want to ride simply, or simply want to ride. Without a doubt, an elegant bicycle.

[Richard Rose]

Arthur, very interesting re Frank Jones. Although I had heard of that bike I am not familiar with it. How is it different from the Roaduno? Yesterdays update reinforces my suspicion that there may be nothing else quite like the new bike.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 3, 2024, at 9:04 AM, Arthur Mayfield <ajmay...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not what else is out there, but what should be—Rivendell should bring back the Frank Jones. 700c, sidepull brakes, 120mm rear hub, fully lugged, fits up to 42mm tires (I have 32s with PDW fenders). I have three Rivs (FJ, Platy, caliper Sam), but my FJ is what I think of when I want to ride simply, or simply want to ride. Without a doubt, an elegant bicycle.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5bc23a1a-b417-4a8d-ae51-10231d18dc61n%40googlegroups.com.

[Richard Rose]

Well damn it. Looked this up & now I really want a silver Roaduno. Look like the same dropouts but with the hanger?

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 3, 2024, at 9:04 AM, Arthur Mayfield <ajmay...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not what else is out there, but what should be—Rivendell should bring back the Frank Jones. 700c, sidepull brakes, 120mm rear hub, fully lugged, fits up to 42mm tires (I have 32s with PDW fenders). I have three Rivs (FJ, Platy, caliper Sam), but my FJ is what I think of when I want to ride simply, or simply want to ride. Without a doubt, an elegant bicycle.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5bc23a1a-b417-4a8d-ae51-10231d18dc61n%40googlegroups.com.

[Arthur Mayfield]

If my FJ had a derailleur hanger, I’d be constantly tempted to turn it into a 1X or 2X 5 or 6. 120mm rear spacing and the difficulties of mounting a derailleur under track forks keeps me in line. As I recall, the Roaduno has wider rear end to go with the hanger-equipped dropouts, so there are a zillion hubs that will fit. I ride it as a single, rather than fixed, and am content. The one change I’d make to a re-imagined FJ would be to add a kickstand mount. I’ve never been comfortable with clamp-on kickstands, always afraid they’d slip or I’d over tighten and damage the chain stays.

[Richard Rose]

Interesting stuff. I am pretty sure the Roaduno is 120 spaced. Screen shot included. My only ever single speed was a fixie - My ‘70’s PX10 conversion. I enjoyed riding that bike immensely & probably should have never sold it. I do think riding fixed aggravated at least one of my knees. I should have tried it as a single. The PX 10 had pretty long stays. It is so dead flat here in northwest Ohio that I think I can get along well with a single - maybe not on the windy days though. The southwest winds can howl here and be as difficult as climbing. Perhaps a flip flop hub?

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 4, 2024, at 9:24 AM, Arthur Mayfield <ajmay...@gmail.com> wrote:

If my FJ had a derailleur hanger, I’d be constantly tempted to turn it into a 1X or 2X 5 or 6. 120mm rear spacing and the difficulties of mounting a derailleur under track forks keeps me in line. As I recall, the Roaduno has wider rear end to go with the hanger-equipped dropouts, so there are a zillion hubs that will fit. I ride it as a single, rather than fixed, and am content. The one change I’d make to a re-imagined FJ would be to add a kickstand mount. I’ve never been comfortable with clamp-on kickstands, always afraid they’d slip or I’d over tighten and damage the chain stays.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/a3d71ffd-7fbb-4e77-aa33-815db206cc09n%40googlegroups.com.

[Bill Lindsay]

I think the 2x1 or 3x1 concept around the Roaduno is brilliant.  Flatlanders can go 1x1.  Rolling hills or windy conditions might make a 2x1 appropriate.  3x1 for truly hilly places.  It's genius, IMO

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[iamkeith]

I believe that the Roaduno is going to be 120mm spaced, just like the Quickbeam/Simple One and Frank Jones Sr.  (I'm going from memory from following the updates too, though).  The idea behind the hanger is more that it could accommodate a chain tensioner than a derailleur.  For whatever reason, Rivendell is currently enamored with a multiple-chainring/single-cog approach to achieving multi-speed drivetrains.  

Nonetheless, there are still some 120mm cassette hubs out there, that take truncated gear clusters.  I seem to recall Grand Bois and the new Suntour group.  There are also several internal geared hubs that are 120mm OLN.

Ignoring any ride quality differences, which we of course can't answer (but Will did address in the recent email), I think the differences between the Roaduno and other Riv single-speeds goes like this: 

Size range:

Quickbeam came in the relatively small 2cm size increments that Riv used in the earlier years.  The classic-but-surprisingly-rare-for-production-bikes way of ensuring that there was a frame to fit everyone properly.  Simple One was a geometic clone of the Quickbeam, but wasn't offered in the really huge or really small sizes.  Frank was ONLY produced in small to medium sizes, because it was intended specifically for the Japanese market, where people tend to have a shorter stature.  Roaduno follows Rivs newer "expanded" sizing method, which started with the Sam Hillbourne, I believe:  sloped top tubes allow more standover AND taller stack heights, and longer top tubes allow for reach-back bars and/or shorter stems to dial in the fit for more riders.  Fewer frame sizes (and fewer fork steerer lengths) is cheaper and avoids having to buy mimimum quantities of niche sizes that take forever to sell.

Lugs:  

All three are fully-lugged.  Frank had the extra-fancy ones, which were previously only used on customs.  

Fork Crown / Tire Clearance:  

First QBs had the (narrowest)  RC02 crown, but that wasn't really the tight spot anyway.  The chainstays were.  With wheels toward the back of the dropout, you could fit maybe 44mm with fenders. (Officially less)  Later QBs and SOs had a wider crown.  I don't know about Frank, but suspect it had slightly more tire clearance simply because available tire technology and sizes had progressed so much further by then.  Roaduno is getting the unique Appaloosa crown which COULD take a 55mm or so but, because it's being used with caliper brakes, is limited to 50mm or so.

Brakes:

QB and SO had cantis.  Frank and Roaduno use caliper (or center-pull).  Roaduno (maybe Frank too?) need long-reach.

Chainstays;

Roaduno has longer stays, though that appears to have been significantly tempered over the evolution of the prototypes.

Dropouts:

QB and SO had water-jet cut plate steel dropouts with the slot cut at a slope, so that the brake pads would hit the rim no matter where in the slot the wheel was clamped.  It was intended to see frequent manual gear changes by moving the chain to adjacent cog and/or chainring, either of which would change the effecive chainstay length.  It could accommodate an 8 tooth total range.  Frank had similar sloped slots, but used a fancy investment cast dropout.  Roaduno has an investment-cast dropout too, but the slot is horizontal and, of course, has the hanger.

Braze-ons:

Haven't studied this closely, but it should be easy enough to figure out.  The first QBs were pretty spare.  Later ones at least got mounts for a campee rack on the fork.  I >think< Roaduno will have a full range for more utility with racks.  But they talk about it being lightweight and NOT intended for touring loads, too.

Kick Sta

The only difference between the QB and SO (other than country of origin for tubing and manufacture) was that SO had a kickstand mounting plate.  Roaduno will likely have one too.

[iamkeith]

While im at it: 

Seat stays:

QB and SO attached to the seat tube cluster with traditional brazed "spoons."  Unlike their contemporary production models (rambouillet, saluki, atlantis), they weren't double-tapered (they only got skinnier at the bottom end) so that fewer lengths were needed.  Frank and Roaduno use the newer ball-and-socket connection, that doesn't rely on the shear strength of brazing for structral integrity.  At the bottom, QB and SO were also brazed (slotted) at the dropout plate.  Frank and Roaduno are tig welded to a breezer-esque, cast, hooded flange.

Paint:

QB and SO were simple, single-color.  Decals were on TOP of the paint (at least with QB.) Intent was to keep the bike inexpensive and utiliarian.  Frank and Roaduno are fancy  with creme head tube and window fill highlights.

[Johnny Alien]

I am confused and its probably just that I am not the market for a bike like this. I feel like once you decide you want a few gears its easier to do a 1x7 for limited gears than 3x1. And big jumps on the front will be fidgity anyway. Understanding that the idea is to stick in one gear most of the time but I still don't see the value. Either you want a 1x or you want a few options and if you want a few options 7 is theoretically better than 3.

[iamkeith]

...why that minutia about dropout construction and connection methods matters is this:

Even with the longer chainstays, it may actually be more difficult to spead the rear end to 130 or 135mm.  I haven't tried, but it seems logical when you look at the dropouts.  With the QB and its brazed-in plate steel dropouts, people spread them to 135 fairly regularly.

Here are some 120mm cassette hubs I mentioned earlier.  Bill has a thread detailing his own experimenting with one:

https://www.hubjub.co.uk/sunxcd-120-mm-old-rear-cassette-hub-5204-p.asp

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/grand-bois-5-speed-cassette-hubs/?iframe=true&theme_preview=true/

[iamkeith]

On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 10:12:07 AM UTC-7 Johnny Alien wrote:

I am confused and its probably just that I am not the market for a bike like this. I feel like once you decide you want a few gears its easier to do a 1x7 for limited gears than 3x1. And big jumps on the front will be fidgity anyway. Understanding that the idea is to stick in one gear most of the time but I still don't see the value. Either you want a 1x or you want a few options and if you want a few options 7 is theoretically better than 3.

Having not tried it, I can only speculate.  What is interesting about it to me is:

1.  You wouldn't technically even need a front derailleur.  You could just move the chain by hand or stick, and not have to fuss with loosening  re-centering, and re-tightening a wheel.  I don't know if you need narrow/wide teeth patterns to keep the chain from bouncing off the chainring though.

2.  You could have more subtle jumps in gearing.  (2 teeth is a smaller percentage of 44 teeth than it is 16 teeth.)

[Berkeleyan]

The paint and fancier lugs on the RoadUno are beautiful, glad to see this coming. Still, I love my 66cm QuickBeam. I stick with a single ring up front and a Dos ENO 17-19 freewheel on the rear, with a 16 fixed cog on the other side. It gets me anywhere in Berkeley except up the steepest hills, and also serves as a fine S24O steed (I rode it from Ferry Building over GG Bridge to Corte Madera for Entmoot that one time. The thing maybe not clear until you ride a single is the extra body english you're going to be employing - I stand on the pedals a lot, and do paperboy up many slopes. This is fine, the delight of not ever shifting while riding is exquisite, and I enjoy the tighter bond with  the bike. It's the "one" bike I'll never let go of.

- Andrew, Berkeley

On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 2:16:12 PM UTC-8 Edwin W wrote:

[Max S]

So, I've got the ol' flip-flop hub, I've got a DOS freewheel and a Dingle cog, and I even hand the ENO double-ring crank (that I then passed on to Bill). In all this time riding SS & fixed, I've never actually stopped mid-ride to change the gearing. I guess my area isn't all that hilly, so I'll suffer up the hill (or down the hill) a bit, but I don't interrupt the ride. I'm curious, do people with 1x2 or 2x2 "SS" or fixed-gear setups actually stop, unbolt / release the wheel, move the chain, re-tighten, and then continue up the hill?.. 

- Max "learning to let go of overprovisioned set-ups in life" in A2

[Bill Lindsay]

Johnny Alien said: "I am confused..." but then explained why he doesn't want to buy a Roaduno.

You don't sound confused to me.  You sound like you've considered the bike and don't want to buy one.  I'm not going to buy one either, but my reasons are different.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[Bill Lindsay]

Max S asked:  "I'm curious, do people with 1x2 or 2x2 "SS" or fixed-gear setups actually stop, unbolt / release the wheel, move the chain, re-tighten, and then continue up the hill?"

Yes, I do.  I live up a 500ft climb in the East Bay Hills and all my multi-single-speeds have an uphill gear and a not uphill gear.  The only rides where I never shift would be when I take the bike on the car rack down to someplace flat.  On my regular 10 mile coffee run into Berkeley I shift exactly twice.  When I did a 200k brevet with San Francisco Randonneurs on one of my two speed single speeds, I shifted 9 times.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Richard Rose]

Max, PM’ed you. 

Rich

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 4, 2024, at 1:23 PM, Max S <msh...@gmail.com> wrote:

So, I've got the ol' flip-flop hub, I've got a DOS freewheel and a Dingle cog, and I even hand the ENO double-ring crank (that I then passed on to Bill). In all this time riding SS & fixed, I've never actually stopped mid-ride to change the gearing. I guess my area isn't all that hilly, so I'll suffer up the hill (or down the hill) a bit, but I don't interrupt the ride. I'm curious, do people with 1x2 or 2x2 "SS" or fixed-gear setups actually stop, unbolt / release the wheel, move the chain, re-tighten, and then continue up the hill?.. 

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[Ryan]

Rmrose...+1 for the PX10...mine is ss only. Long history of almost 50 years  

with these bikes...current one is my 3rd...and yes I still love riding

It....new roaduno IS intriguing though. And in winnipeg...windy and 

flat.

[Richard Rose]

Andrew, how does the dos freewheel work? Is the 2 tooth difference not enough to worry about chain tension?

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 4, 2024, at 1:09 PM, Berkeleyan <asht...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Patrick Moore]

Two teeth will require adjusting the axle-bb length. The Quickbeam and Roaduno have long track ends to hold the axle (or will the Roaduno have long forward-facing horizontals?).

With the chain adjusted for the bigger cog you might be able to ride, just, with the chain on the smaller cog, using a freewheel, but the chain will certainly be very loose. You would not want to do that with a 17/19 t Surly Dingle cog!

Andrew: Do you use a QR axle on your flip flop hub? I switched from 17 and 19 cogs on either side of my Phil to a 17/19 Dingle so that with the QR axle it's very, very easy and quick to change cogs.

Patrick "76 inches and 68 inches on the same side" Moore [Sometimes I wonder if a 17/20 would not have been better: 64"; but then realize that for this bike the 76" cruising gear and a 68" headwind and long incline gear is just about perfect; spot-on perfect would be 76" / 66".]

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[Patrick Moore]

Per their site (https://surlybikes.com/parts/ultra_new_hubs) Surly offers their "Ultra New Hub" in 135 mm OL in both rim brake and disc rotor models, and in 120 mm and 130 mm in a rim brake model.

I expect that this hub is very like their earlier one -- I bought a couple, the first 18 years ago and used them well -- and they are very nice hubs; practically speaking they work as well and last as long as but cost far less than my Phils.

Apparently the shells are the same, and here's the difference. I did have my old ones converted to hollow axles.

Ultra New hubs use hollow axles of our own design mated to threadin wheel fixing bolts, as opposed to the nutted axles of our previous hubs. Hollow axles make conversion to quick release super easy (remove bolts, insert QR skewer, install wheel into frame or fork, ride). All Ultra New hubs come with fixing bolts, but all are QR compatible without axle conversion or any other extra crap. Neato. The axles are made of CroMoly steel, while the fixing bolts are 10.9 stainless steel (i.e. high grade) for corrosion resistance, high strength, and good looks, and the bolts tighten and loosen with a 6mm hex wrench.

I highly recommend a QR skewer -- strong steal internal cam, of course.

On Friday, February 2, 2024 at 2:16:12 PM UTC-8 Edwin W wrote:

... BMC Monstercross. 700c wheels and cantilever posts. But that has 135mm rear spacing, so not exactly built for single speed.

[Will Boericke]

Sturmey Archer AW is as close to single speed as I get - the perfect number of speeds for a tootling bike.

Will

[Richard Rose]

Patrick, Roaduno drops are rear facing but horizontal vs. the Quickbeam’s angled ones. I presume that means you could not adjust chain tension without also needing to adjust brake pads? That ain’t happening.:)

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 5, 2024, at 9:54 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Patrick Moore]

Hah, even better: SA AM hub (3 speed freewheel, 86.54%, direct, 115.55 %; and ASC (3 speed fixed), direct, 90%, 75%. I agree that 3 speeds is a kind of universal norm.

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[Patrick Moore]

If the Roaduno track ends are horizontal yes, that's a defect, IMO. It has been a long time since I bothered with a rear brake on a fixed geared bike, but just perhaps, with just 2 teeth difference, you could set up your rear pads to work with the wheel in both positions despite no angled axle movement. I've never done that, though.

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[Benjamin L. Kelley]

One big difference(at least for me) other than the price between the Phil and the Surly Ultra New Hubs, is the loaded bike+rider weight rating.

Phil says 280lb/127kg for their Classic.

Surly unspecified weight on all their hubs.

I personally prefer the fixing bolt to the QR. Less stuff for people to fiddle with on your bike when its locked up.

I've replaced pretty much ever QR skewer with a bolt skewer anyways, and I really appreciate the Surly's being threaded for bolts.

--ben in KC

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[Bill Lindsay]

Do you interpret the absence of a weight rating on the Surly Ultra New to mean it's unlimited, and therefore stronger/more reliable than the Phil?  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Mathias Steiner]

Bill said

>> I think the 2x1 or 3x1 concept around the Roaduno is brilliant.

That concept is alien to me -- if I understood right, we're talking about single-cog-in-back, front-derailleur shifting. I don't know what problem that would solve.

I "get" the single-speed thing, I think. I've been toying with the concept, purposely not shifting my old 3x6 Motobécane last summer for days at a time. It's relatively flat here in mid-Michigan, and for a commuter bike, the simplicity is great. In the end, I was too lazy to take the shifting apparatus off. I'm still considering it for a future build, makes for a great lockup bike with only five or  six moving parts ;)

Now for winter riding, single speed would make perfect sense. I went more complicated and built a rear wheel with a Shimano Nexus 3speed hub. Since I have cobbled-together shifting it's only a two speed, Low and Direct, and that's plenty. There's  no shift mechanism exposed to the salt, only a front rim brake, and the rear coaster brake is great on snow and ice.

A 2x1 would give me all the complexities of a rear derailleur, plus the poorer shifting of a front system.

Three speeds is cool, but then a 3sp IGH is a great choice, and the clean look is a bonus.

Which is I guess why we have all these bikes to choose from. Different strokes and all that.

cheers -m

[Patrick Moore]

I've always wondered what advantages a 2X1 has over a 1X2 if you are going to use derailleurs -- the 2X1 requires a FD and something like a RD while the 1X2 requires only the rear one -- but for ss sans derailleur some people say that front shifting is easier than rear shifting. Not for me, though.

Am eagerly awaiting the close ratio Silver Rivendell IGH (with proprietary wingnuts).

On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 10:51 AM Mathias Steiner <mathiass...@gmail.com> wrote:

Bill said

>> I think the 2x1 or 3x1 concept around the Roaduno is brilliant.

... A 2x1 would give me all the complexities of a rear derailleur, plus the poorer shifting of a front system.

[DavidP]

A recent Riv newsletter compared the 3x1 to an IGH, saying the 3x1 setup is similar but more mechanically transparent.

If you could setup a rear shifted 1x2 or 1x3 with 8-10t jumps between cogs that might be an interesting comparison. (The largest jump on a megarange freewheel is in this range.)

A question I keep coming back to is whether a 3x1 is more "efficient" than a 1x7/8/9 in terms of drivetrain complexity (mechanically and/or mentally).

Still, I like the idea of a front shifted 2x1 or 3x1 setup. If planning on such a setup I'd probably just get a Homer vs the Roaduno because I always end up wanting fenders on a bike like this and vertical dropouts make fenders so much easier. But I do see that the Roaduno with its 120mm rear spacing is a "more pure" implementation of the vision.

-Dave

[Edwin W]

I love all of this experimentation, and the Rev folks sure do have a lot of experience. 

For me, I am in the fixed gear or 1x8 or so camp. 

Fixed gear so pure and direct and connected.

1x8 more flexible, fewer problems on the hills, but not nearly as much easier as you would think considering there are eight times as many gears! 

I do have a city bike with IGH which is cleaner, but getting back to a derailed bike feels like a much more direct transfer of power. 

I would like a mechanical engineer/bike racer/someone who knows a lot to tell me: how much easier/faster is a geared bike than a single speed? With the terrain of Middle Tennessee (rolling hills) Is it 5% faster, like in a 1 hour race the geared bike wins by 3 minutes? 10% faster (wins by 6 minutes), or more like 1-2% faster (wins by a minute give or take)?

Edwin

[Benjamin L. Kelley]

Yes&No

While I don't believe the Surly Ultra New hubs lack of a quoted weight limit means they are unlimited, I do believe it implies that any reasonable weights are not a problem.

Whereas the Phil ones have a limit specified.

If a company tells me there is a weight limit, I'm inclined to agree/obey as that probably exists for a reason. 

If a company specifies no weight limit, I'm inclined to think there is a weight limit, but it's probably not an issue for most use cases.  Especially Surly products that I feel probably get a lot more abuse than some other companies products.

As a rider that is beyond the combined weight limit of the Phil hubs, I won't buy them any time soon and will stick with the Surly's.

I should keep an eye on the Phil ones tho as I believe the weight limit use to be 250lbs and has changed, and possibility in the future could go up I hope.

I was curious what something like the Surly Big Dummy used for hubs, since they have a combined bike/cargo/rider rating of 400+lbs.

But it doesn't appear Surly is using Surly hubs on any of their complete bikes anymore.  I assume this is a WTB assimilation/price/brand degradation issue.  

--ben in KC

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[Bill Lindsay]

Patrick Moore claims to have "always" wondered:  "I've always wondered what advantages a 2X1 has over a 1X2 if you are going to use derailleurs"

Can you be more specific about this 1x2 with a rear derailleur that you are comparing?  Is this a bike you have?  Have had earlier?  Saw in person?  Or are these 1x2 and 2x1 machines just imaginary build concepts?  

Anyway, in my opinion, I think 2x1 would be a lousy choice for Patrick Moore.  A Patrick Moore 2-speed is a bike that has two gears that are practically the same.  Like a 74 and a 66 or something like that.  Achieving two gears that are basically the same would be easy with a two speed freewheel and a rear derailleur.  A Patrick Moore 2 speed is for 12 mile grocery runs or chasing down young 'uns on the MUP, or grunting up the tramway hill at 30RPM in with a devout and severe mindset of self-flagellation.  

The place where a 2x1 gets more interesting, in my opinion, is when you want two gears that are not right on top of each other.  For example, a 70+ inch gear for the flats and a <50 inch gear for actual climbing (or even <40).  There's no 2-speed freewheel off the shelf that has like an 18 and a 26T cog.  Even if you built something, or cobbled something on a cassette body, getting a rear derailleur to shift that would be tough.  A Patrick Moore two speed in the front would look like a half-step.  Like maybe a 18T cog with a 48 and a 45T ring, plus a tensioner.  

Note that NONE of the Riv staff 2x1 or 3x1 builds has the ultra narrow spread of a Patrick Moore bike.  It reminds me of how I would give a 60-second crash course on shifting at the bike shop when every single bike was a 3x7 mountain bike:  I would tell them that the terrain should make it obvious which chainring you are in:  Middle ring for just noodling around.  Big ring for going fast after you have a good head of steam.  Granny ring for going up a steep hill.  After that obvious choice, then shift the rear on feel.  Little easier this way, little harder that way.  A 3x1 is exactly the same, in my view, with no rear derailleur.  

So, in short, the thing that you've "always wondered" is that a 2x1 or 3x1 has no advantages for the very narrow build type that you tend to feature.  You've got your Patrick Moore build envelope all figured out.  That's my opinion anyway.  I'm looking forward to putting my new-to-me 3x1 Rivendell through its paces, starting maybe in March.  I have some self-flagellation of my own to get done before that.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Patrick Moore]

Good point about very large gear gaps, and true that my riding does not generally involve very steep and very long climbs and that I generally prefer to torque than to spin.

We all know that front derailleurs are capable of shifting 12-16 tooth gaps, my DA 7402 (?) fd shifts between the 44 and 28 just fine. Front shifts are slow compared to rear shifts but they're relatively foolproof, at least with friction shifting and with a properly set up fd.

If you want a ~70" gear with a ~50" gear you could have a 48/34 double with an 18 t cog and get 72" and 51". (27" wheel.)

Rear derailleurs will shift an 8t gap just fine; long ago I had a semi-half-step drivetrain, half-stepping the middle 5 cogs of a 13-15-17-19-21-24-32 7 sp cogset with the 13 used only with the big ring for downhills and the 32 with the smaller ring for steep climbs. The old, pre-indexing Shimano long cage rd shifted the 8 t gap fine.

So, to get the same 72" and 54" gears with a 1X2 you could use that 48 with an 18 t and a 26 t and get 72" and 50".

That leaves the question how to arrange a 2-speed, 18-26 t cogset. Cassette hub with spacers is one option, but I've been told that some 1-speed BMX freehubs can accept 2 cogs. And 3 speed freewheels are still available:

https://www.amazon.com/3-Speed-16-19-22T-Thread-Freewheel/dp/B01M8GJV4O

I wonder if you could find one or modify one to get an 8 t gap?

Me, give me a SA TF hub, rarer than hen's teeth, which could give me 72" and 54" (71.5 and 53.6) with direct and 75% underdrive.

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[Patrick Moore]

Just an aside, but I stumbled across this: a commercially available, modifed single speed fw with 38 teeth. Also available in a still excessive (for a 1-sp fw) 28 t.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/256341921520?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D260344%26meid%3Dbe2f385cd1214fbd8f755967177959e8%26pid%3D101875%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D296157601832%26itm%3D256341921520%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D4429486%26algv%3DSimplAMLv11WebTrimmedV3MskuWithLambda85KnnRecallV1V2V4ItemNrtInQueryAndCassiniVisualRankerAndBertRecallWithVMEV3CPCAuto%26brand%3DUnbranded%252FGeneric&_trksid=p4429486.c101875.m1851&amdata=cksum%3A256341921520be2f385cd1214fbd8f755967177959e8%7Cenc%3AAQAIAAABYObhgc4Nk8%252BdtAwOww4FKLaj%252FQ5qqgDlQCuqZA43WcPFUWDERCUugbbOk7XQv0JXlBfqCg2xKF3WcPghxGMFw2oSlXvfExEaMYr7I7LmrHcP6czY1wIMt0ORyKiCWt95xldincyyBx3g%252BNDW%252B%252FhWUgTaBhK6xAm%252BJIbCOMehu%252BdwuOL9CsgIEdzXJ0407A2KnoQkkxd%252BfE557YZZlNfUYNlNqNAlRc%252FdNRI3MNqF8aELEQJMq%252BnvNt9O1Xa1UKu3RW0CkDa8JQvlXUNZSbLFWuVAeRyYpYRuNbHTVOX6C9zMdNw6RQjeBLo6WJYI3vLjOc%252Ff1jf6B5K3Ncu5DJZnB91jBcLNgLAflW%252Fe7MX6W5n223mlwXEfvtNU4vcjUipmdXEPZsMQ7nnQkiWJFyNmhZiuExvmkowHn0qDXR8G%252FVIXhP%252BoOrfOeIndzkLDZFUbcJ%252Bv8VsYXRbftGaKsqygNRw%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A4429486

[Patrick Moore]

[Bill Lindsay]

" That leaves the question how to arrange a 2-speed, 18-26 t cogset"  So when I asked if this 1x2 bicycle existed only in your imagination, it sounds like the answer is "Yes"

" 3 speed freewheels are still available [inserts Amazon link]"  Note that those are definitely of the ultra-cheap and presumably crap variety -AND- don't have any interface for a removal tool.  If you ever want to remove it, take off the bearing cover with your pin spanner, disassemble the whole thing, and grab the guts in your bench vise.  Throw it all into metal recycling and install a new one.  

"The old, pre-indexing Shimano long cage rd shifted the 8 t gap fine."  but note, that in that particular use case, your 8 tooth gap was all the way at the inner swing of a rear derailleur, where the pulleys are already farthest away from the cogset.  If you were to set up this hypothetical 18 and 26 right in the middle of the cassette for proper chain line, the headroom relative to the pulleys will be necessarily reduced and possibly too small to function.  This was another reason why I asked whether this 1x2 machine actually exists.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Bill Lindsay]

just as an aside to your aside, I recently did some hobbyist lathe work for our friend Joe Bunik, who intends to build a two-speed single-speed mountain bike.  He had me modify a vintage crankset to yield a single 52-tooth aluminum chainring that can bolt to the Problem Solvers system of cassette spacers.  I forget what his "other" cog size is going to be, but I think it may be a mirror, like 52/32 chainrings and 32/52 cogs, so he'll have a 52x32 high gear and a 32x52 low gear.  I hope that doesn't spoil his reveal.  

BL in EC

[Patrick Moore]

All speculative, but speculation precedes action. Probably not my action, but who knows where this might lead?

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[Patrick Moore]

But, more to the point, this discussion has clarified why someone might choose a 2X1 or 3X1.

[Bill Lindsay]

" I like the idea of a front shifted 2x1 or 3x1 setup. If planning on such a setup I'd probably just get a Homer vs the Roaduno because I always end up wanting fenders on a bike like this and vertical dropouts make fenders so much easier. But I do see that the Roaduno with its 120mm rear spacing is a "more pure" implementation of the vision."

I agree with this.  Rather than a RoadUno, a RoadTrio could be a 3x1, with a 120mm OLD, vertical dropouts and a tensioner tab with no rear cable stops and a single DT shifter boss for a front derailleur.  The RoadUno as designed gives some additional flexibility for a pure single speed setup, or an NxN single chain length setup, but with vertical dropouts would have been super interesting.  

There is at least one really good way to run fenders on horizontal dropouts, and that one way I'm thinking about is a rear hub with an allen bolt configuration that allows you to remove the bolts entirely and drop the wheel straight down.  The Surly hub has axle stubs, so doesn't support this method.  The Phil hub does allow a straight-drop wheel removal.  If I was setting up a RoadUno, I think that's what I'd do.  I'd run a Phil rear hub, slammed forward like Will's email photo, with a triple crank, single freewheel, and fenders.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Berkeleyan]

Patrick asks, "Andrew: Do you use a QR axle on your flip flop hub? I switched from 17 and 19 cogs on either side of my Phil to a 17/19 Dingle so that with the QR axle it's very, very easy and quick to change cogs."

I have a threaded through-axle with big heavy 17mm nuts, front and back. And I carry a Park bottle opener with 17mm socket on the end to remove the wheels. It works fine, I don't mind the extra effort. And yes, I enjoy the QB's up-angled rear forks (dropouts) which let me keep the brake pads "pretty much" aligned with the rim when I flip between 17 and 19, or flop over to the fixed 16. For a ride in the flats through traffic, I'm on the 17. If heading up into the lowland hills, I stop and change to the 19. And stand on the pedals a lot, and even then sometimes get off and walk.

- Andrew, Berkeley

[Berkeleyan]

" I have a threaded through-axle with big heavy 17mm nuts, front and back. And I carry a Park bottle opener with 17mm socket on the end to remove the wheels."

Er, make that 15mm... I was thinking of motorcycle parts at the same time.

- Andrew

[Richard Rose]

Per today’s e mail update - Roaduno completes due in May, not April. Not sure if that includes the non completes.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 7, 2024, at 1:03 PM, Berkeleyan <asht...@gmail.com> wrote:



" I have a threaded through-axle with big heavy 17mm nuts, front and back. And I carry a Park bottle opener with 17mm socket on the end to remove the wheels."

Er, make that 15mm... I was thinking of motorcycle parts at the same time.

- Andrew

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[Richard Rose]

A couple of interesting(?) Roaduno tidbits in yesterday’s blog. Sounds like a distinct possibility that the complete will come with the new Silver 3 crank. And the bit about the head badge goof has me planning to paint the “window”, should I be lucky enough to get one. Not going to happen if I am unable to sell my Ibis.:(

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2024, at 8:05 PM, Richard Rose <rmro...@gmail.com> wrote:

Per today’s e mail update - Roaduno completes due in May, not April. Not sure if that includes the non completes.

[Bill Lindsay]

I'll definitely buy a Silver 3 road crank.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA