Center pull/Herse Brake Help

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

Hi All!

Hoping you can help me with your center pull knowledge....

Before I start, I tried Jan Heine/RH  but I think they are on light staff and I haven't heard back.

I've got a pair of direct-mount Herse center pulls on my Homer that I cannot, for the life of me, get the squeal out (rear only).  

Here's some things that I've done to try and eliminate the squeal and some general info.

1. There was some significant deflection of the stay under hard braking so I had a friend machine a brake booster. Now there is zero deflection. No change.

2.  I get squeal pretty much as soon as the pads touch the rim under any amount of brake pressure.  (Also, off the bike, using the brake lever engaging the brake and pushing the bike forward under very light pressure).

3.  Interestingly if I squeeze the pads by hand and move the bike forward in the same fashion, no squeal.

4. I must be dampening some kind of vibration in doing so?

5. Toe-in has been increased to the point it cannot be possibly be the issue? both pads are hitting at the exact same time, both pads are all the way "back" in the holder (closest to the arm)

6. I've taken a file to the brake pads to remove any contamination (any time I try something new I hit the pads with a file to eliminate them as a culprit)

7. I've cleaned the rims with alcohol (after every iteration of troubleshooting)

8. I've burnished the rims even though they are brand new Velocity Dyads (followed by righteous cleaning)  I've done this at several levels of "intensity"  

Anyone have any tips/tricks I can try?  

I'd hate to use a different pad because the Herse pads/holders are so beautiful but that's probably next on my list.

I haven't changed the straddle cable length or experimented with that yet.

Thank you so much!!!  This will make my month if I/we can figure this out...

Cheers,

Alex in Rochester, NY

[Jeremy Till]

You mention pad holders so I assume the brake shoes are of the type with a replaceable pad. I'd try one piece shoes as the next experiment. I've wondered if pads of that type not being fully seated in their holders could be a source of vibration or resonance that contributes to squealing. I've had a couple of instances of brakes with such shoes squealing after pad replacement that was fixed by switching to a one piece pad. Of course, you could try to better seat the pads, but sometimes it's not trivial to get the pads to fully seat and aside from aesthetics I see little advantage to them, so I tend to just go for the one piece shoes. I find I often need to readjust the shoe's angle and position over the life of the pad or when replacing them anyways.

-Jeremy Till
Sacramento CA

[Takashi]

Hi Alex

I don't have bikes with centerpulls, but I had squealing issues with my RH cantilever brakes.

Long story short, I swapped from salmon pads to black pads (using same holders), and after several times of riding, they ceased to squeal.

I've read (in comment section of RH blog, I think) that another user also switched from salmon to black and squealing problem was solved.

Also it seems that there is compatibility issue between rims and pads, so if you have another rear wheel, you might try putting it on your Homer and see how it goes.

Out of curiosity, did you have brake mounts brazed on your Homer?

Takashi

[Philip Williamson]

I just chased down squealing brakes, and changing the height where the pad hits the rim finally fixed it.
Toeing the brake OUT actually stopped the squeal, too, but I didn’t leave it like that.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

Phillip I've spent days on this by now, without exaggerating  😂  I like to think one of the 73 times I took the pads in and out I would have magically put them in some kind of orientation to stop the squeal but....who knows.

@Jeremy I have a couple different one-piece pad options I can experiment with

@Takashi swapping in a different wheel is a good troubleshooting step....I'll do that first....probably one-piece pads next and then order some black Mafac pads so I can retain my irrational aesthetic obsession.

Thanks all!! Off to a good start with some new ideas....

Stay safe out there everyone looks like the entire country is in turmoil, Rochester included.

Peace 

Alex

[Dan Vee]

Don’t know much about the squeal but was wondering how anyone who has these brakes likes them?

[James McKinley]

I ordered those brakes on a custom build. The builder told me when I took possession that he had had poor or no response from Heine on problems with brake squeal. He ended up putting Kool Stop pads on the brakes. They've worked well for me, with occasional scuffing of the surface during maintenance chores. Contrary to sales statements from RH, I haven't found them to be superior to the cantilever brakes I have on a very similar bike; there's a bit of squishy feel to them. IMO they weren't worth the extra cost.

-- Jim

[natearm089]

You’ve tried pretty much everything I can think of. You didn’t mention the rim model. There sometimes seems to be incompatibility between rim and brake pad material. I assume you’re running the salmon Kool Stop pads. How about trying the black compound, which has a little less friction?
Nate

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

Hi Everyone!

Thanks for weighing in and providing additional ideas.

So I tried the wheel swap and I got squeal....less, but squeal nonetheless

Next I tried some run of the mill Jagwire black brake pads....no squeal.  Nothing.  Not a peep.

So I guess my stubbornness got the best of me.  I just never thought a pad swap would do it considering I have the same pads/rim up front.  c'est la vie

BTW @ Nate they are Velocity Dyads

I don't want to pile on the responsiveness of RH because of the time we are in....everyone gets a pass right now.

Stopping power wise they are among the most powerful rim brake I've experienced.  They are the most beautiful brake around and they have clearance for days.

Set up IMO is cantankerous, unless you do a lot of them perhaps?  One thing in particular that drove me nuts was the fact that the pinch bolt for the hanger is 7mm and you need front and back, the pinch bolt on the arm is 9mm and you need front and back and the brake pad nut is 10mm.  That's a lot of dang wrenches to fiddle with!

I'm a little burnt on these right now so I'll probably just ride those Jagwire pads until they need changing.  I'll try the black mafac pads somewhere down the line.

PS Here's some Bonus Info on the RH cantis.  I will save someone the headache if they aren't direction readers like me.  They require a particular post that is slightly recessed in the end.  That's because the RH bolts have a small shoulder where the threads transition to the bolt head (For "strength").  If you tighten them down on the wrong style brake post and fail to read the directions....congratulations!  You now have a brake for life because the last ~1mm of post has mushroomed around that shoulder trapping the brake arm on.  Ask me how I know 😑