Long reach brake options for AHH

[Pierre]

Hi bunch - 

Not super happy with the original Silver calipers raw stopping power (admittedly quite spoiled by excellent hydro discs on other bikes).

Looking for an upgrade but looks like long reach Paul racer are no longer produced. What are my options lately? Anyone tried Rene Herse center pulls?

(Even toying with idea of sending frame to Bilenky to add canti studs so I can run mini-motos but maybe a bit extreme...).

Thanks.

Pierre

[Bill Lindsay]

I like the idea of cantilever posts on roadie Rivendells, pretty much across the board.  I'll be showing off a new Cantilever Roadeo sometime around the end of the year.  So that is an excellent option in my opinion.  If I wanted to try out Paul Racers before moving on to frame mods, I would try hard to shake some loose out of one of these groups.  Between RBW, iBob, Classic Rendezvous, 650B, there's got to be some.  

If it were me and I'd already convinced myself there were no Paul Racers, I'd also have a personal phone call with the folks at Paul.  There is zero actual manufacturing infrastructure associated with the Paul Racer.  The hardware is all identical to all their other brakes.  All they need to make Paul Racers is aluminum and the CNC machine, both of which they have.  Maybe they are actually still gettable off-menu.  I'd poke at that angle through Mark or Spencer at Rivendell first.  

If I didn't want all that Paul hassle, I would take a serious look at two Dia Compe models:  The DC750 that everyone has seen, and the GC700 that virtually nobody has seen.  Alex's Cycle in Japan has the GC700 in stock and I've had excellent experience buying from them.  Do some reach measurements to make sure the GC700 would fit.  I ran the smaller GC610 on a Black Mountain Road for a while and they worked well.  

Rene Herse centerpulls would likely get you back to frame mods.  They really ought to be installed on dedicated centerpull posts.  

Good luck

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[lconley]

Rene Herse will sell you Rene Herse Centerpulls with Mafac backing plates that allow installation on bikes without the brazed-on posts. Conversely, you can get braze-ons that allow you to direct mount the Dia-Compe center pulls. I have direct-mounted Rene Herse centerpulls on my Rivendell Custom, as well as various normal Dia-Compe centerpulls on some of my Rivendells, and a couple of Rivendells (Betty Foy and Rosco Bubbe V1) with Dia-Compe centerpull front brakes and Tektro sidepull rear brakes due to frame / cable routing considerations. They all seem to work well enough to me.  

Hard to beat the Dia-Compes for bang for the buck as well as fender clearance. The Rene Herse centerpulls have massive tire clearance (no fender mounts on the Custom). The Rene Herse seem more fiddly to install (as are the Mafacs on which they are based - I have Mafac Competitions on my Gitanes) than the Dia-Compe. I even have Weinmann centerpulls that can interchange parts with the Dia-Compe.

Personally, I don't like the brutalist appearance of Paul brakes, but I do have Paul Motolites on my Hubbuhubbuh and mixed Paul cantilevers on my Bombadil. Sometimes it is function over form.

Laing

[Ted Durant]

On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-5 Pierre wrote:

Not super happy with the original Silver calipers raw stopping power (admittedly quite spoiled by excellent hydro discs on other bikes).

I had mixed results with Silver/Tektro long-reach dual-pivot brakes. On my Bleriot, with some dual-compound pads, they were brilliant. On other bikes I had less brilliant experiences. I suspect it had something to do with the levers I was using, but I never did a full, controlled experiment. The levers on my Bleriot were older Aero Gran Compe. I also can suggest that low-compression cable housing made a difference for me.

That said, the Yokozuna hybrid disc brakes on my newest bike (which replaced the Bleriot) are a very different feel. I can't definitely say they have more ultimate power, but it takes a lot less hand power to get to max.

I have the Dia Compe 610-N calipers (not on braze-ons) on a bike and they proved to be excellent stoppers when I was riding pretty fast and a car turned left in front of me. Had the back wheel well off the ground and stopped with about a foot to spare. Again, they need a bit more hand power than the disc brakes to get to that point, but not a lot. 

My experience with cantilevers is considerably more mixed than with the long-reach dual-pivots. Everywhere from sublime to frightening.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Johnny Alien]

If I had a bike that needed long sidepulls these are the ones I would have. I have used them before and I don't think there is a long reach that is as strong.

[Johnny Alien]

Forgot the link.

https://velo-orange.com/collections/brakes/products/grand-cru-long-reach-brakes

[Forrest]

Johnny, I had those brakes on a bike once. Very good stopping power; they seemed a little stouter than other sidepulls. 

[amill...@gmail.com]

The issue with the VO is they are only midreach (47-57). Many Riv bikes require longer reach. 

Best,

Aaron in El Paso 

On Jul 9, 2022, at 17:55, Forrest <therealfo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Johnny, I had those brakes on a bike once. Very good stopping power; they seemed a little stouter than other sidepulls. 

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[Eric Daume]

Yes, the AHH in question uses long reach calipers, not mid reach like the VO.

My experience with long reach calipers has been universally bad (Tektro, DC centerpulls). They're adequate in the dry, but with wet rims, there is no stopping power at all.

I like a lot about the AHH, but I wouldn't get it due to the brakes. 

Eric 

Plain City, OH

where I'm not really satisfied with the mid reach Tektros on my current Trek,either

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[Johnny Alien]

I didn't realize those brakes would not work. They were marked as long reach. I can't remember what I used them on before but it must have been something for mid-reach brakes.

IMO I am just baffled they keep making bikes for those brakes when there are no great options with great stopping power. Especially when there are so many nice V, mini-V and canti brakes out there.

[Joe Bernard]

Johnny, I believe that's how the long-reach-caliper Cheviot became the v-brake Platypus. V-brakes just work and I spec'd them on my light duty mostly-pavement custom as well. 

Joe Bernard 

[Daniel MacPherson]

I once installed Tektro R559 brakes on a friends 27” to 700 road bike conversion. She mentions to this day that she could never stop adequately on that bike. Personally, I don’t understand bikes that need long reach calipers. Either go canti/v-brake or disc brakes for these type of bikes.

Daniel M 

Tallahassee Fl

[amill...@gmail.com]

I assume the folks at Rivendell find them adequate. I’ve used the 559s (with kook stop pads) on a fixed gear with a front brake only in the mountains and found it worked fine. I’ve actually done this on multiple 650b fixed conversions. I’ve even used DC750s in this setup. 

I’ve also used the Mafac Raids and thought they were fine (but finicky to set up sans squealing).

I like v brakes the most for ease of setup and stopping power but many people find them “grabby.” I have yet to find a brake I find inadequate (with kool stop pads).

I think brake performance expectations vary quite a bit. 

Best,

Aaron in El Paso 

On Jul 9, 2022, at 18:52, Johnny Alien <johnny....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joe Bernard]

Part of the Riv association with long-reach calipers (my opinion) is Grant had them made back in the days when road bikes were closely associated with calipers and he wanted more room for big tires. We don't think anything of it now but at the time if your bike had canti posts it was a tourer or mtb, you couldn't sell it to folks looking for a road frame. 

[Daniel MacPherson]

I agree with the sentiment that road bikes look better with calipers on them. Though I find the long-reach caliper brakes (Tektro R559) to be rather ugly looking. Road bikes with disc brakes or v-brakes still look odd to me. I assume they must be gravel or cyclocross bikes. Maybe Rivendell should develop some kick-ass long reach caliper brakes. 

Daniel M 

Tallahassee Fl

[Eric Daume]

Rivendell did have a hand in developing the R559 (though I think just from a specification standpoint, not the actual design)

Eric

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[lconley]

Appearance was a large consideration when I selected the Rene Herse braze-on centerpull brakes for my Rivendell Custom that was intended as a road bike. I call it a fat man's racing bike. "Racing Bike" as in no braze-ons for racks, no fender eyelets, no holes in the "brake" or chain stay bridges, - clean stays and forks but a really long wheelbase. The long chainstays are balanced by the really long main triangle (62 cm ETT x 53.4 ST). What I did not realize was how large the Rene Herse brakes are, they dwarf my Mafac Competition , DiaCompe, and Weinmann centerpulls. But they still have that fifties - sixties racing bike look. The centerpull braze-ons are located between the rim and the fork crown/brake bridge, so they are a stiffer mount that cantilevers/V-brakes whose braze-ons are located below the rim. Another plus for the RH centerpulls is no black or plastic parts like the long reach Tektros.

I have never actually seen another bike with braze-on centerpulls except in pictures - some in the book Japanese Steel. I have considered at times having Dia-Compe braze-ons installed on my Paramount for the original Weinmann centerpull brakes.

Laing

[Nick Payne]

I have the Tektro R556/R559 (the only difference between the two is that the R559 has a lock on the quick release lever) on three bikes, and the braking is fine on all of them. On one bike I have Shimano R400 brake levers, another one has SRAM Force double-tap integrated shift/brake levers, and the third has TRP RRL levers.

On all three I swapped out the provided pads for Koolstop salmon city pads: http://www.koolstop.com/english/city%20threaded.html.

[iamkeith]

On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 7:16:35 PM UTC-6 Joe Bernard wrote:

Johnny, I believe that's how the long-reach-caliper Cheviot became the v-brake Platypus. V-brakes just work and I spec'd them on my light duty mostly-pavement custom as well. 

Joe Bernard 

But this doesn't explain how the Charlie Gallop went from cantis to long-reach calipers before it even went into production.  Especially when you consider that the cable routing actually worked quite well with caliper brakes on the Cheviott, but is kind of awkward for cantis on the Platypus.  (Or any mixte, really.)  

My own total guess is that part of the reason that Riv still builds bikes around these brakes is out of a a sense of "obligation."  As Eric noted, both the Tektros and the Paul's came into existence explicitly at the behest of Rivendell.  So it is appropriate that they continue the market if we/they want such options to continue to exist.

I have the Tektros on a RB-1 650b conversion and must say I don't hate them.  But it's a fair-weather, occasional bike, so maybe I haven't tested them like some have.  If you really like everything else about the A Homer Hilsen and can imagine it being a lifetime bike, I think a canti conversion is a great way to go. Get it over and done and don't look back.  (Do check vertical clearance at the seatstay bridge while you're at it though.  If you don't also raise it and it subsequently becomes the thing that prevents you from fitting fenders over your desired tire, you'll kick yourself.)

It's interesting to remember that originally, when it was called the Saluki, the AHH had the option of either brake type.  It was then described as a cross between a mountain bike and a road bike, so I guess that accommodated everyone, depending on which direction they leaned.

[Eric Daume]

The CHG change is especially frustrating to me, because the frame checked so many boxes for me with the canti brakes. But now it's a non-starter.

Eric

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[amill...@gmail.com]

I’m with you, Joe. Still cracks me up when I see a bike with cantilevers and clearance for 700x28. That was a huge “road” tire at the time, and I remember Grant excitedly teasing the larger clearance caliper. 

I’m beginning to think there’s something wrong with my acceptance of Tektro 559 performance. Should I be dissatisfied?!

Best,

Aaron in El Paso 

On Jul 9, 2022, at 20:31, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Part of the Riv association with long-reach calipers (my opinion) is Grant had them made back in the days when road bikes were closely associated with calipers and he wanted more room for big tires. We don't think anything of it now but at the time if your bike had canti posts it was a tourer or mtb, you couldn't sell it to folks looking for a road frame. 

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[David Hallerman]

Maybe kick-ass long reach caliper brakes are inherently unlikely because the needed length alone - no matter what great brake pads are installed - makes the brake arms less forceful than, say, medium reach brakes (like on my Ram).

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[Patrick Moore]

Laing: Forgive me if you've posted some before, but if not, I'd be delighted to see photos of your Riv custom "racing bike." 53.4 X 62?? What sort of bar? Me, I fit almost the diametrical opposite: 60 X 56 c-c for a drop-bar bike. 

To all: I've found this discussion interesting, both regarding braking effectiveness and road bike aesthetics. I have to say that I myself would prefer cantis or V brakes, or braze-on centerpulls instead of what appear to me clunky very-long reach calipers on a "gofast" road bike if medium reach calipers didn't work; and in fact, I've seen a number of custom or high-end production road bikes from before WWII built for cantilever brakes. I think a great many of these were on the Classics Rendezvous and Classic Lightweights UK websites.

IME, I tend to agree with those who say that almost all brakes work decently, if not brilliantly, if properly set up, and if the levers are appropriate to the brakes proper. I know that my otherwise wonderful second-gen (? The tab-operated cam) Dura Ace single pivots worked badly, even with salmons, pulled by 7410-era levers, while the single pivot (high end DC? Superbe Pro?) 57 mm reach single pivot on the gofast pulled by the same levers works very well indeed, for power and for modulation.

[Cyclofiend Jim]

I must ride a lot slower than all's y'all's... but I've honestly never had any trouble with my brakes on my AHH. I use the original standard Shimano Lever  that shipped with it in aught-seven (probably discontinued) on a set of Noodle bars. They don't bottom out at full pressure and the wheel will skid. 

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2008/cc522-cyclofiend_jim0908.html

- Jim

[Eric Daume]

To everyone who is satisfied with their long reach brakes, how do they work *in the wet*? For instance, after riding across a short section of wet grass, my long reach brakes literally can't stop my bike until the wheels have rotated several times. I almost went into a cross street because of this when I was trying to slow for a car at an intersection.

V brakes are so much better.

Eric

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[lconley]

I haven't posted the complete bike yet as I am still swapping parts around and have not taped the handlebars (Rene Herse Randonneur) yet. Here is the photo that Rive posted:

Some of the parts (stem, derailleurs, pedals) have changed since this picture, but it gives a better idea of the geometry.

Laing

[Josiah Anderson]

I agree with Eric and others who find the 559s lacking in stopping power. They're more or less good enough in dry conditions, but if it's wet, not so much, and they're even worse in the snow. One of my scariest bike experiences ever was on a 650b conversion of an old Trek with 559s (with salmon pads), coming down a long hill with a busy intersection at the bottom. It was raining, and having recently switched to the Tektros from Mafac Racers, I was expecting my brakes to work, but they didn't. I went through the intersection at probably 35mph, and I managed to make the turn and somehow there were no cars, but it still freaked me out. The 559s don't seem to be able to squeeze hard enough to create enough friction to dry off wet rims in a revolution or two like most other (good) rim brakes do, so they just keep skating on top of the layer of water. Same deal for ice, although there are fewer brakes that do well with that.

I've noticed that it seems like many of the people who like the 559s ride in relatively dry places and many of us who regularly deal with wet and freezing conditions find them inadequate. That's just my hypothesis on the wide variety of opinions on these brakes; I know not everyone fits this pattern.

(Apologies if this post comes through late- I post frequently on IBOB but not as much here so might not have Cyclofiend Jim's approval to post).

Josiah Anderson

Missoula, MT 

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[Cyclofiend Jim]

Ha. Yeah. Good point. 
Definitely SF Bay Area where things are reasonably dry and dusty.

I will say that have run that through some fairly wet brevets and did use those when I used the AHH for CX.
We had some muddy days - https://flic.kr/p/61iVgT

[Daniel MacPherson]

Are the Paul Racer brakes better? I’m tempted to buy the latest Crust road bike in the near future but I don’t want to run 559s or Mafacs.

I know they’ve been discontinued but I’m sure over the next 6 months, a couple will pop-up on Ebay or the ibob community. 

Daniel M

Tallahassee Fl

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Daniel MacPherson

[Ted Durant]

On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 2:23:48 PM UTC-5 Josiah Anderson wrote:

I've noticed that it seems like many of the people who like the 559s ride in relatively dry places and many of us who regularly deal with wet and freezing conditions find them inadequate. That's just my hypothesis on the wide variety of opinions on these brakes; I know not everyone fits this pattern. 

Well, sample n=1, I did many a winter commute in Wisconsin with them and never had a problem.

[David Person]

I have 559s (with salmon Yokozuna pads) on my Hillborne.  When I built up a second bike for wetter conditions I went with a Surly Disc Trucker with Yokozuna Ultimo hybrid disc brakes.  I have to say that the difference in braking feel and performance, even in dry conditions, is quite noticeable.  I wasn't sure about disc brakes, but I'm a convert.  I do notice that rims with machined sidewalls (like Velocity Quill or Dyad rims) do improve the performance of the 559s vs non-machined like Velo Orange Voyager rims.  I'm using the same brake lever on both bikes, what Riv used to sell as the Tektro Mtn Lever (FL540).

[esoterica etc]

Hey Daniel,

I have a set of Paul Racers with TRP RRL levers on my Soma San Marcos (Riv-made and very similar to an AHH), and a set of the Tektro 559s with Shimano 600 non-aero levers on my Schwinn World Voyageur set up as a double single-speed bike. 

I've taken the Schwinn on roads where I've gotten right around 30 mph (~72 gear inches), as well as some singletrack (~49 gear inches), and the Tektros slow and stop just fine for me. I am running 700c wheels on the Schwinn and the brake pads are just about halfway down in the slots, so I do have a bit more mechanical advantage than someone running 650b wheels with the pads at the very bottom of the slots. 

Having said that, the Paul Racers are much better in my opinion. Even though the Racers are almost maxed out at the bottom of the slots on the San Marcos (650b wheels), they have much more power than the Tektros at mid-slot. The Racers also have a solidity to them when engaging, and for me they're very confidence-inspiring. I'm extremely happy with my Racers and would highly recommend them (if you can find them). All the best,

~Mark

Raleigh, NC

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[Scott Marriott]

My dumb question is why not u-brakes with a backing plate.  (Fender clearance?)

https://www.porkchopbmx.com/dia-compe-br-990-boomerang-bmx-u-brake-adapter-pla.html

https://www.porkchopbmx.com/dia-compe-ad-990-fs-990-bmx-u-brake-bicyc-46160865.html

Really just curious to know if anyone has tried this.

Scott M

Chicago, IL (Hyde Park)

[Patrick Moore]

It looks very promising; thanks for the photos. Please do post photos of the final build.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Daniel MacPherson]

Thanks for the review. I remember seeing them a while back on the QBP website and thought to myself that I should snag the last two. I regret not doing that now. 

Sincerely, 

Daniel M

Tallahassee, FL 

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Daniel MacPherson

[Patch T]

I've used a set of these Grand Bois "Chouette" long reach centerpulls for a conversion, using a backing plate:

https://www.jitensha.com/eng/brakes.html

Decent value, great looks, maybe finicky to set up, but fantastic braking power. I love my MiniMotos and love these, too. They have very different feels, but are both very effective.

Patch in NYC

On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 9:37:19 AM UTC-4 Pierre wrote:

Hi bunch - 

Not super happy with the original Silver calipers raw stopping power (admittedly quite spoiled by excellent hydro discs on other bikes).

Looking for an upgrade but looks like long reach Paul racer are no longer produced. What are my options lately? Anyone tried Rene Herse center pulls?

(Even toying with idea of sending frame to Bilenky to add canti studs so I can run mini-motos but maybe a bit extreme...).

Thanks.

Pierre

[Corwin Zechar]

Those Shimano drop-bar levers are still available! Buy them at rivbike.com, amazon.com, ebay.com and several other places.

Regards,

Corwin

[amill...@gmail.com]

Has anyone used the Dia Compe BRS202? How does it compare to the R559? 

Best,

Aaron in El Paso 

On Jul 13, 2022, at 10:12, Daniel MacPherson <macphe...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Patrick Moore]

I'm glad you mentioned these, as I'd not heard of them. They look nice, and if they stop as you say, then they are very good deals at half the price -- or less -- of Paul's. 

The website does not say; how long a reach do they have? And: Will the wider ones fit 42s and fenders? If so, I almost wish I'd had my 2020 Matthews built for these instead of cantilevers (also Paul's).

I must get a pair of those lovely non-aero levers; besides, it would be an opportunity to finally by a HP 20 pump chuck. 

Curious: Besides calling Jitensha, can you order the DC levers online anywhere? A quick Google (v,t) did not help. 

Also, unrelated except by the Jitensha site: Has anyone used these 650 latex tubes? 58 grams??? Those are lighter than the Schwalbe XL 559 X 42s I use on the Matthews, which are a burdensome 90 grams and cost a plebian $15 each.

650 X 36-42B, latex super lightweight, made by Soyo, 34mm valve stem, 58g  $35.00 ea

How neat would it be to have tubes that weigh the less than my extralight 571/559 X 23 mm (60 gr advertised, 70 grams actual) and cost more than some tires I've used?

And I see that they still offer their wool-mix knickers and socks; wonderful. Since Rick Risemberg's store is long gone, it's good to know that really nice cycling knickers and socks are still available -- the Riv, Swrv, etc knickers I've used simply don't fit as well as the old fashioned type like these that are cut like regular street pants in waist and hips.

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[Patch T]

Hey Patrick - this diagram with measurements is from the Grand Bois website.  https://cyclesgrandbois.com/SHOP/gb_ch_m.html

Hope it's helpful!

I highly recommend going through Jitensha Studio. I live in NYC and they made this transaction super easy, the parts got to me quickly, shipping was better than it would have been from Japan. And I like that when I want parts from the likes of Peter White or Hiroshi-san, I have to call and speak with a human :)

Patch

[Brett Callahan]

PSA:  Looks like those longer reach dia compe are in stock at Soma Fab.  They're not cheap.

My experience with 559 vs. Paul centerpulls on a caliper brake Hillborne model was that the CP's stopped a little better than 559's  in the dry, and 'felt' better, probably because less flex. However, braking in the dry from both was satisfactory with Kool Stop pads.  In the wet, (actively raining, hard) neither brake stopped worth a damn. 

Caveats: I'm a big guy at 250+ and really well set up cantis don't stop me in the wet all that well either.  For wet weather braking, a bike with discs or to a lesser extent V-brakes are the way to go, I think. 

Brett

[Patrick Moore]

Patch: Thanks for this very useful information about the brakes and about ordering; will focus on Jitesha.

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