Atlantis Old vs New?

[Tyler McClure]

I am searching for a used Atlantis as my introductory first, Rivendell, during my fall into the rabbit hole of the internet and bike opinions. I have been steered toward the newer model Atlantis, but the Atlantis 2's are cheaper and more readily available. I want to know whether anyone has ever ridden the Atlantis 2 & 3? I am looking for honest opinions on the frame geometry and ride feel. I like the idea of riding a long, old, vintage Cadillac of a frame unless it is very limiting. The newest Atlantis has a very long chain stay, and I am curious as to how this compares with the older models. I have a large interest in loaded touring and riding fire roads here in Montana, but I mostly ride roads and lazy gravel rides. I am looking at an Atlantis 2 (not local at all) with 26" wheels. I have ridden all wheel sizes and am not biased toward any particular size.

[Luke Hendrickson]

I, too, am interested in hearing more from someone who’s had the good fortune to have ridden both. I first fell in love with the 2, but bought in with the latest iteration and have no regrets. Then again, I’ve never ridden the last one so perhaps I don’t know what I’m missing.

What I can tell you is that I love my MIT. It’s comfortable and does feel like the long Cadillac you mentioned, Tyler. I’ve heard from more than one person that tight, technical singletrack isn’t great for the long chainstay Atlantis. I ride a fair share of singletrack here in San Francisco & in Marin, but it’s not all that technical or tight quarters. I mostly find myself in more wide open spaces, both paved and unpaved. The Atlantis is perfect for that.

[Tom Horton]

I have a toyo atlantis 68 and a few years ago added an mit atlantis 64....what I can tell you is that whenever I'm doing an extended road tour the old toyo remains my go to....and I have a 64? appaloosa too.  I have refitted the mit atlantis with bullmoose bars and knobbies and love it for riding forest roads and general trail use (nothing real technical).  would not part with any of my rivs right now, but if I were taking off for cross the country tomorrow, it'd be on the toyo (set up pretty standard with drop bars and racks).

I'm guessing either way you'll end up pretty happy.

[Bryan Dalik]

I just picked up a late 2000's Toyo Atlantis and I've ridden some of the longer chainstay more modern Rivendell frames. The biggest difference I think would be the chainstays for sure. The ride quality will be in my opinion vastly different, as the older Riv's had shorter (still longer for the time) chainstays keeping the bike a bit more nimble and quick as opposed to being super stable albeit a bit more "clumsy". An Atlantis 2 with 26" wheels has plenty of possibilities. I'm sure you can clear real big tires if you wanted to, or go a more traditional tire with fenders and whatnot. 

[Bill Schairer]

I've got an Atlantis2 I bought used in 2017.  I've ridden it between Banff and Helena on the Great Divide Mountain Bike Route route fully loaded with 700C 50mm tires and it did just fine.  There isn't much single track and I tipped over a couple times on that but attribute to my lack of experience, confidence, and skill rather than the bike.  Generally, I have zero interest in technical single track.  This past summer I rode it from Missoula to Denali NP fully loaded with 30mm tires up front and 40mm in the rear.  Route included some 300 miles of gravel.  Again, it performed wonderfully.  It is a very versatile bike that has done everything I've asked of it.  I've put just shy of 13,000 miles on in the past 5 years.

The new Atlantis looks like a completely different animal to me, one in which I have no interest.  One of the guys on the Alaska trip said he had an Atlantis but chose not to ride it on the trip because he couldn't get it into a box.  I therefore assumed it to be the new model.  He rode a Surly instead.

Bill S 

San Diego

On Montana gravel - bicycle heaven.

Somewhere in BC or Yukon.  We had a stretch in the Yukon where we carried 5 days of food.  Bike plus gear probably weighed in close to 100 lbs. the first day of the carry.

[dougP]

You've fallen down a useful & informative rabbit hole.

I have a 58 cm Atlantis that I bought from Rivendell in 2003 (now 20 yo!). I've used it extensively for loaded touring & it is everything everyone says. Good handling, versatile, able to carry loads front & rear, etc. I've done some off roading but mostly fire roads & easy trails. No technical single track. IMHO it would be the bike for the type of use as you describe it. The Atlantis 2 was 700c in 58 cm & larger, and 26" in 56 cm & smaller.

The newer versions have more wheel sizes, including some in 650B. There is a rare Waterford version that was a bridge between Toyo & Taiwan. They were only built for a year or so, and feature slightly longer chainstays than the 2s but not the noticeably longer ones of the MITs. I rode one of these at RBWHQ, not realizing there was any difference. I immediately noticed the ride quality was more cushy than mine. I couldn't figure out what had changed, & the person I talked to just said vaguely "Oh, we fiddled with the geometry a little bit" but didn't elaborate.

Later, I rode a MIT version, 53 cm IIRC, and the ride was positively plush compared to mine. I got onto some easy trails for a few miles & it felt fine, even around fairly tight corners. No gnarly single track.

One thing to be aware of is toe clip overlap. I have size 11 feet & sometimes hit the tire if making a tight, low speed turn. Not a major issue but it does bother some people. For many it's not a consideration. I believe the new geometries push the front wheel further out so this may no longer be an issue. I ride flat pedals so my feet can wander around.

Regarding shipping, I have shipped my 58 cm quite a few times, including Europe. It's definitely a big bike to pack. Everything comes of (racks, etc.) to get it into a box. If shipping is in your plans, I'd definitely ask about packing a MIT Atlantis.

Best of luck in your search.

Doug Peterson,

Irvine, CA

[Tyler McClure]

Edit: Anyone with experience riding the Toyo Atlantis, and the Joe Appaloosa, feel free to chime in. We are very limited on information throughout the internet

Thanks, Tom, that's quite the garage you have there, and you are quite the resource! So, are you saying that, for roads and long touring, you would chose the Toyo, and trails, you would choose the Atlantis 3? Is this because you have more experience/sentiment on the Toyo? I have read many people mentioning the lack of whippy-control on single tracks, and I wonder if this is really an issue/gripe, or just a hot topic about the geometry. Because to me, the side profile of the bike looks super cool and unique with that long chainstay, it reminds me of those drag-racing motorcycles you see on the salt flats. The new chain stay makes me feel like Rivendell is either sitting on some new futuristic frame design or if it compensating for carrying heavy loads, and adding control. The Atlantis 3 makes me want to buy a set of knobby tires and go climb a mountain, which makes me wonder how people are liking it for the long haul, Youtube only has "Bike Checks," I want to know what the bike is that people are stuck on, like, "gun to the head- which one are you choosing". The Allrounder toyo/#2 Atlantis are clearly legends, and much cheaper with the addition of the new Atlantis 3.

[Joe Bernard]

My experience is limited to an early Waterford All Rounder, plus MIT Atlantis and Appaloosa. My verdict as a guy who didn't trail ride any of them: the shorter bike felt a little more maneuverable in urban riding but not enough to offset the comfort of long chainstays and "get them bars higher" headtube on the MIT bikes. When I had my custom built I asked for the new stuff. 

[Tom Horton]

Re my toyo atlantis and my mit  expect there s a bit of sentimentality/long familiarity involved with the toyo

Before i built the mit atlantis up for trail riding i had a drop bar on it and did a few five or six day tours  not heavily loaded (carrying maybe 25-30 pounds if stuff)  it rode great   Never felt i wouldn t have gone further on it

But there s something about that massive toyo 68 a frame nowhere near maxed by my own 6-5 frame   

I do not however think i d like it as much as the mit on anything resembling technical trail

So a do everything atlantis?  The mit perhaps

Also just starting to explore road and off road possibilities of a clem L 64  but that ll be another story😊

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 4, 2023, at 3:59 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

My experience is limited to an early Waterford All Rounder, plus MIT Atlantis and Appaloosa. My verdict as a guy who didn't trail ride any of them: the shorter bike felt a little more maneuverable in urban riding but not enough to offset the comfort of long chainstays and "get them bars higher" headtube on the MIT bikes. When I had my custom built I asked for the new stuff. 

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[Ed Fausto]

Hi,

I share the thoughts of Tom.
I also have both a 51 Toyo Atlantis and a 50 MIT Atlantis.

Although, I have used by Toyo Atlantis during my 2016 TransAm and it performed well with a fully loaded gears.

My only cons on my Toyo is the toe clip overlap which is annoying for me specially when grinding up slowly uphills.

I am by default a slow rider so toe clip often happens more frequently than other riders.

When I got my MIT, I feel the difference is it is more stable than my Toyo.

And of course, no more toe clip overlap :-)

I have not yet ridden my MIT on long tours.

As mentioned by others, since my MIT Atlantis is very much longer than my Toyo, it could be a challenge finding boxes after a long tour.

Regards,

Ed Fausto

Manila, Philippines

PS Even with the toe clip overlap on my Toyo Atlantis, I will still keep it due to sentimental reasons after my 2016 TransAm

[homer howzit]

My Toyo does not have “fork mounts” for a rack. Would that be a factor for consideration in your decision?… I will say that I LOVE this bike, but the combination of Paul “Moto-lites” & no fork mounts makes finding support for a front bag kind of tough.

Just a thought

HH

[Stephen]

I've never ridden an atlantis, older or newer, But I do ride a '21 joe appaloosa(60) (the joe is very similar to MIT atlantis) and a rambouillet(62/63), so I feel I can comment a little on long vs. short chainstays. 

In addition to taking the joe out on road and gravel, i treat it as my mountain bike. I've ridden a fair bit of twisty singletrack in NC and have never really felt inhibited by the long chainstays. Anytime theres a turn I can't make, I honestly wouldn't be able to do it on a shorter bike either. 

Also, I recently did a little test ride with a new packing setup and I felt it really demonstrated the magic of the long stays... rear rack and panniers. Just honestly blown away by how roomy the bike is and how out of the way the luggage is with the long rear end, and how little it affected the good handling of the bike. I'm typically a front basket guy, but these bikes do ride really nicely with the weight in the back. On other bikes I've had issue with my heels hitting the bags.

Now the Ram with the more traditional geometry is also a fantastic riding bike. I'm not sure how the geometry compares to older atlantis', but the rear end is considerably shorter than the joe and MIT atlantis'. I currently run 700x38 panaracers on it and use it for paved and dirt roads. Obviously not as stable as the Joe on gravel, but its really a road bike and it kicks butt on pavement. I'd say I like the shorter rear end for pure road riding. If it were sturdier I could imagine putting bags on it for a tour, but it wouldn't be as spacious as the setup on the Joe.

As others have stated, the older and newer atlantis' are really quite different bikes, and in choosing between options you just need to analyze what features you want. The newer models can fit bigger tires, are roomier, more stable, but come at the cost of being humungo bikes. For me personally, I like the extra tire clearance and I like having at least one long chainstay bike. These days its a bit of a key rivendell feature. I feel lucky to have both options in the stable.

Also if its possible, the best thing to help in deciding is getting to try each style out to see what suits you. Maybe there is someone living close enough to you with a long chainstay bike you can try, or an older atlantis. worth checking the riv map John created or asking the group.

[peec...@yahoo.com]

I am down to 2 bikes: a 2010 Hillborne and an Atlantis MIT.  Both are set up for upright riding with albatross bars.  I love them both.  Hillborne has the "toe clap overlip" (clever huh?) that the MIT doesn't.  Both have their merits with the hill borne seeming to be a zippier ride.  MIT is a tad more comfortable with 650b 47 tires as opposed to 700c 35 tires on the Sammy.  If I had to choose one bike it would be the Atlantis.  Just more comfortable and versatile.  Rivendell bikes really have improved my life.

[lucky...@gmail.com]

My 2004 53 cm (54?) Atlantis with 26” wheels features toe overlap and not much room out back with a “fist full of seatpost”, for big baggage. 

It’s pretty nimble off road snd very stable on. Set up with Albatross, love it. 

On Apr 27, 2023, at 06:57, 'peec...@yahoo.com' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I am down to 2 bikes: a 2010 Hillborne and an Atlantis MIT.  Both are set up for upright riding with albatross bars.  I love them both.  Hillborne has the "toe clap overlip" (clever huh?) that the MIT doesn't.  Both have their merits with the hill borne seeming to be a zippier ride.  MIT is a tad more comfortable with 650b 47 tires as opposed to 700c 35 tires on the Sammy.  If I had to choose one bike it would be the Atlantis.  Just more comfortable and versatile.  Rivendell bikes really have improved my life.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4a9fb3e4-1380-4af5-b080-c50c7cf9b9cbn%40googlegroups.com.

[Ken Yokanovich]

I have a 61cm Toyo-built Atlantis. I had not ridden the bike for about 3 years due to some unexpected life change circumstances and then a repaint/rebuild. I also have a latest-generation 57cm Appaloosa that I have owned and ridden during those 3 years for recreation, errands, and commuting. The current generation MIT Atlantis is very similar to Appaloosa.   I recently got the Atlantis back from a repaint, and it has been fun to compare the two bikes.

Atlantis

I have ridden this bike for recreation, commuting, and have done several loaded tours on it. I like it a lot, I don't LOVE it. At least not for recreational riding. I tend to grab something else when it's time to go play.  (I also own Rivendell: Custom - All Rounder, Custom - Road, Frank Jones, HubbuHubbuH, Platypus) Tire widths have ranged 35-48mm. It seems to handle a lot better with the wider tires, particularly when descending hills on gravel. It IS my go to bike for loaded touring and when I travel. (This is a weird combination of opposing purposes that I am constantly struggling with.) I prefer the position of drop bars and appreciate multiple hand options for multi-day rides and long hours in the saddle. The more "aerodynamic" position is something MUCH appreciated for those eventual day-long headwinds. The bike does have toe overlap with the fenders, but this has never been a big deal for me. For the most part, I would have a hard time telling you which of my bikes did/didn't.

Appaloosa

I bought the Appaloosa as the keep-handy grab-n-go bike. My confidence in upright handlebars was bolstered by the experience of riding and touring on the HubbuHubbuH. I like the Bosco bars way more than I expected I ever would.  I keep the Appaloosa parked in front of the car making it an easy choice for errands and commuting. Unexpectedly, I have found myself riding the Appaloosa for recreation too.  The bike rides much "lighter" and "faster" than I expected it would.  If I hadn't just got the Atlantis ready for summer touring, I would like to try taking the Appaloosa on a fully-loaded tour. I think the more casual ride mood that it inspires might encourage me to cut back on ambitious daily mileage goals when touring.

Summary

Both bikes provide a lot of enjoyment. If forced to choose between the Atlantis or Appaloosa, I would select the Appaloosa.

What's next or what would I do differently?  I have thought about buying another Appaloosa from the next batch and building it up for loaded touring so I could reconfigure the Atlantis for easier travel.

[Mackenzy Albright]

I don't have an atlantis - but for a long time rode a crust romancuer, which was somewhat based off the old atlantis's. I thought it was the bees knees for a long time, but never felt right *for me* especially while trying to use upright bars. It felt amazing with drops however. Due to neck injuries and unable to set the bike up in it's best form decided to trade my Romanceur for a Clementine. It is a day and night difference of ride with boscos and long top tube and wheelbase. 

My summarization would be: 

For drop bar setup - an older atlantis would be nice. There are a more similar bikes available like the older atlantis frames. AKA large tire clearance touring bikes. Bassi Le Montreal, Crust Romancuer, etc. 

For upright bars - the long wheelbase and top tube rivs truly shine in their comfort, performance, and handling. I don't think there are a lot of bikes out there outside of rivendell with similar wheelbase and handling characteristics. I get a bit annoyed with the constant rebuttal that "they're just over priced 80's mountain bikes" - but they took everything good about 80s mountain bikes and improved it. Longer wheelbases and top tubes. Better steering geometry. Higher head tubes. More clearance for larger tires. Lots of braze on options for racks and bags. etc. 

[MisterMo]

Is there a place to go to get Atlantis history and updates over the years? ie, was there a Waterford Atlantis? Atlantis to Atlantis2 was? Did Toyo produce Atlanti with both the roundy lugs and the pointy lugs?  How does one tell the difference between Toyo, MIT and Wford? etc, etc. Thanks for pointing me to a place with this info (or providing it here).  

[MisterMo]

Was there ever a Waterford Atlantis?  How can one tell the difference between a Toyo Atlantis and any others?  ie, is the 'pointy' lugged Atlantis Toyo built?  

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 4:22:39 PM UTC-4 Mackenzy Albright wrote:

[Cyclofiend Jim]

The "2" was on the first Atlantii, to acknowledge that the name had been used in the past by Bridgestone.... 

I have the old Atlantis page yonder - 
http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html

There are a few scans of the pertinent flyers.

J

[Doug Van Cleve]

The OG Atlantis was a production frameset made in Japan by Toyo, based on the Allrounder, which was first made by Waterford then some other builders RBW used for a bit.  Not sure about lug variations in the Toyo Atlantis, but other than color and name it is a completely different bike than that current MIT version.  The Toyos are relatively conventional, not super long like the current ones.  I'm pretty sure the Toyos never had any kind of double "top tube" like many of the larger MITs did/do...

Doug

[iamkeith]

One of the difficulties in identifying builder/age is that there were running changes right from the beginning. 

 I think you can pretty safely identify the Toyo frames by the shape of the chainstays.  They had a graceful S-shape, with a curve behind the bottom bracket for tire clearance; then a straighter section  more-or-less parallel, for foot/crank clearance;  then curving out again before meeting the rear dropout at 135mm width.   Slightly newer frames had more common-shaped j-shaped stays that angled straight to the dropout after the first bend.  I'm not sure what builders did what though, or if later Toyo frames changed.

The very earliest Atlanti would have had an RC-1 crown, with the triangular window.

The lugs are more of a crapshoot.  Here's one that has the above-described chainstays and fork crown, but has rounded lugs instead of one of the two pointy styles I'd always thought were used from the earliest:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2007/cc412-clivestandley1207.html

[iamkeith]

Here's another one showing the curve of the Toyo chainstays well.  It has the same round lugs, which are like the blue and later Rambouillets.  That would make sense, as these were the first two production frames and contemporaries, both made at Toyo.  

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2006/cc161-garyrogers0906.html

So maybe the "small" pointed lugs, which also appeared on the orange Rambouillets, indicate the oldest Atlanti?  Like this:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2010/cc763-jayscheiner0410.html

Likewise, maybe the "big" pointy lugs are slightly  later.  They would have been shared with the Saluki, which came slightly later than the Ram and Atlantis.  Like this:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2008/cc446-willcarey0208.html

Obviously  lots of good images on the Cyclofiend site, for analyzing this.  I think contributions/updates sort of tapered off around the same time as the switch to Taiwanese production, right Jim?:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html

[Greg J]

Most of this is coming from (pretty foggy) memory:  I believe there are Wford built Atlantises from a period when Riv had issues sourcing Toyo frames.  At least at the time, WF was using its own proprietary dropouts- the svelte ones with a curve on the insider triangle, compared to the more generic ones that Toyo used at that time, so that's one "tell."  (But later, Riv must have licensed or bought similar dropouts and stamped them Rivendell, so visually this may not be helpful.)  And all WF frames have WF's running serial numbers, so that's a sure way to tell.  

Greg

[RichS]

Mr. Mo asked about Waterford built Atlantises. Here are detail pics of mine from 2013 (regrettably sold to a list member awhile back). Chainstays measured 45cm. Note the rack mounts on the fork crown. Gray color was same as used on the Hunqapillars from that era.

Best,

Rich in ATL

[Garth]

To add another layer to the Atlantis history, does anyone else recall the very first run of them having longer top tubes ? Not prototypes, they were the original run. I recall the number 62cm for a top tube for the (I believe) 64cm frame size, as I was considering buying one in particular because it had the extra long TT.  I opted for a local Ohio custom framebuilder instead which I'm still immensely pleased with ! They were changed after that to what the charts listed say, but I know I read it somewhere from them, and being surprised by the change, and glad I got my custom instead.

For Rich in ATL, I'm still waiting  for my new custom from Jack @ Franklin frames. That's okay though, as I have a running email dialogue I send him periodically with any changes or detail I didn't think of. So the blueprint in still very fluid since it isn't ! Basically just like my Bradley model but with a slightly longer front-center that gives some additional foot room for optional fenders if ever that comes to be. Not a fan of having my feet anywhere even remotely close to the front tire/fender !

[R Shannon]

Garth, that's exciting! Enjoy the anticipation and the process; always another detail to consider isn't there? Thanks so much for the update.

Best,

Rich in ATL

On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 4:43 PM Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

To add another layer to the Atlantis history, does anyone else recall the very first run of them having longer top tubes ? Not prototypes, they were the original run. I recall the number 62cm for a top tube for the (I believe) 64cm frame size, as I was considering buying one in particular because it had the extra long TT.  I opted for a local Ohio custom framebuilder instead which I'm still immensely pleased with ! They were changed after that to what the charts listed say, but I know I read it somewhere from them, and being surprised by the change, and glad I got my custom instead.

For Rich in ATL, I'm still waiting  for my new custom from Jack @ Franklin frames. That's okay though, as I have a running email dialogue I send him periodically with any changes or detail I didn't think of. So the blueprint in still very fluid since it isn't ! Basically just like my Bradley model but with a slightly longer front-center that gives some additional foot room for optional fenders if ever that comes to be. Not a fan of having my feet anywhere even remotely close to the front tire/fender !

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