Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I have the extra tall Nitto stem with 50 mm reach. SomaFab makes it, Riv got it for and sold it to me and I love it. Everything seemed fine and then I gave my Clementine that major makeover I’ve gone on about on a separate thread. While I was lightening my bike I decided I should swap the cromo 55 Boscos for 52 aluminum Boscos. And those I love as well - they are perfect for me.

However, I noticed I’ve developed a strange ticking in the bars. Yes, it’s definitely from there, but what is NOT clear is if it’s the stem or the new Boscos. I took a video tonight, and you can hear the sound. It happens randomly, regardless of whether or not I’m pushing on my bars, but I can *also* create the ticking by jostling the bars. I’ll include a video where you can hear it in the next post.

Anyway, let’s talk about the stem first. Two things:
1. When I slid my new aluminum Boscos into the clamp on my stem and went to tighten the bolt, the bolt felt “stripped.” Which it could not possibly be, and which I had never experienced before (I installed the 55 cromo bars with no issue). Opposite the bolt is a nut that requires you to stabilize it with a wrench while you use your hex key to tighten the clamp onto your bars. Weird.

2. Can the ticking sound be because the stem is used to the cromo bar that was installed prior, and now it won’t play well with another bar?

Bars.
1. The aluminum bars have a sheath in the middle, where the clamp goes. Could the sheath have something to do with the ticking sounds? I have heard Nitto has QC issues. Could that be what I’m experiencing?

Videos and link to the stem in next post. One day, maybe I’ll get my bike problems solved. Oh, how you all long for that day!
Sorry! And thanks,
Leah

[Leah Peterson]

Here is the stem, note the bolt.

https://www.somafabshop.com/shop/product/nitto-stem-technomic-quill-280mm-xl-25-4mm-4096?category=153&search=Stem

And the videos to hear the tick. This sound will drive me mad. Not a sound I can live with.

[Abcyclehank]

Grease?

Ryan
West Michigan

[Mark Roland]

Did you put a good amount of grease on the stem quill going into the steerer when re-installing? Since it seems to be a "paired" click--that is, it clicks when pressure is applied, and again when released--maybe there is something going on with that interface. Loosen stem, lube it up, (including some grease on the stem bolt and nut) move it around a bit in the steerer, tighten to spec. Easy to do, so if it works, yay.

Otherwise, you will need to play around with the sheath area of the handlebar. I've seen bars where that sleeve has some movement, not sure of the construction of yours. As Ryan suggests, grease. Or maybe anti-seize or mild loc-tite? I don't generally put anything there, so others would know better.

If you can, do one thing at a time, starting with easiest. That way you will (hopefully) diagnose the cause for the future, if it comes back.

[John Hawrylak]

Leah

All Bosco bars (CrMo or Al) are 25.4mm in the clamp area.  Is the Nitto Stem a 25.4mm or 26.0mm diameter clamp?  

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Mark Roland]

The stem she linked to is 25.4, and she previously had chromo Boscos in there with no noise.

[hugh flynn]

All interfaces are suspect in this scenario and the phantom click can be tough to isolate.

As noted above grease in the quill is step 1.

If that doesn't do it, a light coat of oil on the sleeve should be tried.

If that doesn't do it, loosen the stem clamp (so there's no pressure on the sleeve), put some light oil around the junction between the sleeve and the bar, and lay the bike on one side so the oil can seep between the sleeve and the bar. Let it sit for a few hours then flip the bike on the other side and repeat. Then wipe up any excess, tighten things back up and repeat.

If that doesn't do it... well, that's all I have :-) 

Hugh Flynn

Newburyport, MA

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Hugh Flynn
Newburyport, MA

[John Hawrylak]

+1 on what Hugh said.

Suggest also pulling the stem out and verify the quill is stamped with "25.4" and NOT "26.0" for the clamp diameter.  A mix up may have occurred at Soma and they sent you a 26.0 stem.

The CrMo bars may have tolerated a clamp mismatch better than the Al bars

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 1:15:42 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

[Mark Roland]

True, although If I'm reading it right, Rivendell bought it from Soma for her and then passed it on, so hopefully they verified it was 25.4. Still, stuff happens!

[Leah Peterson]

You guys are so good at these games. I’m already implementing your instructions and it’s only 7 am! 

First, the grease in the steerer. It’s there. The shop applied a fresh coat while I was standing there watching - this was early June.

Second, verify the stem is 25.4 - I pulled it out and yes, it’s 25.4

Next up, you say oil. That I have not yet done because I swapped stems at midnight last night. But if I trust the stem enough to swap it back, I’ll oil it. Or should I grease it? Which is better?

Let’s call the problematic Nitto stem Tall Boy. I think there’s something wrong with Tall Boy, but I’m not experienced enough to know WHAT. As I was extracting the Bosco from it last night it took a lot of force and there was a ton of squeaking. Video below. Also, there is the problem of the stem clamp bolt. It spins as if stripped; you have to brace the nut with a wrench while you use your hex key to tighten the bolt. My other stems don’t do this - you tighten the bolt with a hex key and DONE. I’ve emailed Soma to ask about this; maybe I’ll hear from them today.

Also, see how chewed up my sleeve on my brand new Bosco is. Something seems wrong, but inspection of the now-removed stem reveals nothing to my eye.

[Conway Bennett]

Nitto cockpit are known to do this. Disassemble and regrease EVERYTHING and reassemble and the problem may or may not resurface. I have experienced this issue only once, I addressed it, and it never resurfaced.

The roadside fix is a couple of drops of wet lube into the bar stem interface and tighten the clamp bolt.

[Leah Peterson]

Interesting; gives me some hope. By “wet lube” do you mean that Boeshield would be ok to use at bar/stem interface? That’s what I have on hand...

Ok, what of the strangely spinning bolt?
Thanks much,
Leah

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 17, 2020, at 7:49 AM, Conway Bennett <captaincon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Nitto cockpit are known to do this. Disassemble and regrease EVERYTHING and reassemble and the problem may or may not resurface. I have experienced this issue only once, I addressed it, and it never resurfaced.

>
> The roadside fix is a couple of drops of wet lube into the bar stem interface and tighten the clamp bolt.
>

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[lconley]

Ok, what of the strangely spinning bolt?

Some Nitto stems have a nut on the backside that needs a wrench on it when you turn the Allen wrench on the front bolt to keep it from spinning, some do not. If you have a nut on the back of the stem that you did not hold still while you were turning the Allen wrench, that is likely your problem - the stem bolt was never tight.

Laing 

[Sean Ryan]

I had some ticking/clicking on an older pair of aluminum nitto handlebars and i took care of it by laying the bike and applying oil to the bars at the edge of the sleeve.  The idea is to let the oil make its way down between the bars and the sleeve.  After letting it soak/penetrate for a little while i wiped down the bars and they have been silent ever since.  if the noise is coming from the handlebar/sleeve area this may help. 

Sean

Massachusetts

[Sean Ryan]

I used triflow though any chain lube should do.

[John Hawrylak]

++1 on this.

The nut flats contact a 'flat' in the casting, and when you tighten the allen in front, the 2 flats contact each other, and the nut does not rotate as you tighten it.  Visually check the BACK of the stem for the nut flat to line up with the stem casting flat to line up.

I would do this before greasing or oiling anything.  The bar is NOT designed to move or rotate in the clamp and needs grease only to prevent galvanic corrosion (dis-simiiar metals like steel in Al)

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Leah Peterson]

John, this is how it’s supposed to work, but it’s not. I’ve tried all different ways of laying that nut flat against the stem casting and it spins regardless. I’ve flipped the nut both ways...still spins. Does that mean defect? 

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 17, 2020, at 8:39 AM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Leah Peterson]

[Eric Norris]

That is the wrong nut. Nitto uses a triangular shaped nut on the back side. I don’t know that what you’re using is dangerous, but you should by all means get the proper Nitto nut.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

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On Jun 17, 2020, at 9:26 AM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

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<Video.mov>

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On Jun 17, 2020, at 8:39 AM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Leah Peterson]

Eric, that’s the nut that came with it, and it’s the same nut on the other Technomic stem I have. How can it be wrong? Both stems were purchased new.

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 17, 2020, at 9:29 AM, 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

That is the wrong nut. Nitto uses a triangular shaped nut on the back side. I don’t know that what you’re using is dangerous, but you should by all means get the proper Nitto nut.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/51DF0A99-E790-4F61-AB57-B5CB1B6AA2C5%40me.com.

[Eric Norris]

Here is what you should have:

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

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[Leah Peterson]

The one on my teenager’s Clem has that. I’d love to have it for this stem - where do I get it?

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 17, 2020, at 9:32 AM, 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Here is what you should have:

<image.jpeg>

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[Eric Norris]

Rivendell? Anybody who sells Nitto parts should be able to get one.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

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[lconley]

Rivendell sells them for $5, or you can just put a wrench on the nut you have.

Laing.

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<Video.mov>

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 17, 2020, at 8:39 AM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



++1 on this.

The nut flats contact a 'flat' in the casting, and when you tighten the allen in front, the 2 flats contact each other, and the nut does not rotate as you tighten it.  Visually check the BACK of the stem for the nut flat to line up with the stem casting flat to line up.

I would do this before greasing or oiling anything.  The bar is NOT designed to move or rotate in the clamp and needs grease only to prevent galvanic corrosion (dis-simiiar metals like steel in Al)

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 11:15:55 AM UTC-4, lconley wrote:

Ok, what of the strangely spinning bolt?

Some Nitto stems have a nut on the backside that needs a wrench on it when you turn the Allen wrench on the front bolt to keep it from spinning, some do not. If you have a nut on the back of the stem that you did not hold still while you were turning the Allen wrench, that is likely your problem - the stem bolt was never tight.

Laing 

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[franklyn]

Some models of stem have the triangular nut, whereas others have the hexagonal nuts. It's not dangerous as long as it's torqued to the right spec. I also had one Nitto stem where the hexagonal nut can't quite stay put against the ledge, but I have no issue using a wrench to hold it while tightening the bolt down.

Franklyn

[ted]

The photo Eric posted looks like a Technomic Delux. What you are describing sounds like a plain Technomic.

If you want to find a 50mm Technomic Delux, I suggest trying Ben's / Milwaukee cycles

https://www.benscycle.com/

   https://www.benscycle.com/nitto-ntc-dx-technomic-deluxe-long-quill-stem/stem_nitto_ntc-dxlong_870/product

   https://www.benscycle.com/nitto-technomic-l225-long-quill-stem/stem_nitto_technomicl225_870/product

Excellent source for all things Nitto.

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 9:33:40 AM UTC-7, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

The one on my teenager’s Clem has that. I’d love to have it for this stem - where do I get it?

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 17, 2020, at 9:32 AM, 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Here is what you should have:

<image.jpeg>

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

On Jun 17, 2020, at 9:30 AM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Eric, that’s the nut that came with it, and it’s the same nut on the other Technomic stem I have. How can it be wrong? Both stems were purchased new.

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 17, 2020, at 9:29 AM, 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

That is the wrong nut. Nitto uses a triangular shaped nut on the back side. I don’t know that what you’re using is dangerous, but you should by all means get the proper Nitto nut.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

On Jun 17, 2020, at 9:26 AM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

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<Video.mov>

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 17, 2020, at 8:39 AM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



++1 on this.

The nut flats contact a 'flat' in the casting, and when you tighten the allen in front, the 2 flats contact each other, and the nut does not rotate as you tighten it.  Visually check the BACK of the stem for the nut flat to line up with the stem casting flat to line up.

I would do this before greasing or oiling anything.  The bar is NOT designed to move or rotate in the clamp and needs grease only to prevent galvanic corrosion (dis-simiiar metals like steel in Al)

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 11:15:55 AM UTC-4, lconley wrote:

Ok, what of the strangely spinning bolt?

Some Nitto stems have a nut on the backside that needs a wrench on it when you turn the Allen wrench on the front bolt to keep it from spinning, some do not. If you have a nut on the back of the stem that you did not hold still while you were turning the Allen wrench, that is likely your problem - the stem bolt was never tight.

Laing 

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[Leah Peterson]

Riv shows out of stock so I called and luckily, their crackerjack mechanic answered the phone. Mark said lubricate the interface (stem/bar) and use wrench to stabilize nut. Meanwhile, he found a triangular nut to sell me, so I’ll try that, too. The shelf that the hex nut snugs up against is too shallow. Plus the aluminum must have worn a bit, making the issue worse (that explains the shavings in my hand).

Don’t know why this stem chewed up my bars or why the ticking, but these are reasonable steps. I’m scared of something as important as a stem being defective, and I’d almost just spring for a new one, but there are none available online.

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 17, 2020, at 9:37 AM, lconley <lco...@brph.com> wrote:



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[Leah Peterson]

Thanks, Ted! You are right, it’s a Delux, and that’s the stem that gets the triangle nut. However, it doesn’t come in the 280mm height. I’m hopelessly ruined for shorter stems now; the 280 is where it’s at! 

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 17, 2020, at 9:53 AM, ted <ted....@comcast.net> wrote:



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[ted]

"Don’t know why this stem chewed up my bars ... "

I don't think this is uncommon. Nitto sells a tool to help avoid it.

https://www.benscycle.com/nitto-tool-4-stem-handlebar-clamp-spreader/stem_tool_nitto__870-900-11_870-900-11/product

A large flat head screwdriver, or some such, can sometimes work instead.

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[aeroperf]

When Leah posted about buying her stem, I went out and got one, too (and within a week of her posting).
Here’s the photo of mine - still in the plastic bag (because I’m going to re-sell it and I wanted it pristine.
As you can see, it’s a hex nut.
If I were going to install mine, I would remove the nut entirely and put a star washer under it, then hold it with a wrench to tighten.

[Joe Bernard]

This whole boondoggle reminds me that I'm SO over these stems - no matter how pretty they are - and want Analog to make a slightly taller w(Right) Stem in silver with the open face clamp and sell it to Leah.*

*I can't add to any of the advice already given here, this is solely a complaining post.

[Doug Hansford]

I agree with you aeroperf, there is nothing for the nut to "grab" when tightened down. A star washer or split/lock washer should help.

Doug

[lconley]

Why are so many opposed to using a simple wrench on a nut as Nitto intended for this model stem?

A guy who likes using the correct tool for the job.

Laing

[Joe Bernard]

"Why are so many opposed to using a simple wrench on a nut as Nitto intended for this model stem?"

I don't think it's "opposed" so much as the other Nitto stems - like most one-bolt stems - don't work that way. I've had a bunch of both models and don't think I've ever used a wrench on that nut, it wouldn't have occurred to me.

[Leah Peterson]

What? You don’t like the Tall Boy? Why are you selling it? If you’re really sure, I might want to buy it from you. I just lived and swapped back the Tall Boy stem. If I still have that tick, take my money.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 17, 2020, at 10:44 AM, aeroperf <dore...@comcast.net> wrote:



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<P1050347.JPG>

[Eric Norris]

There are gazillions of stems out there that use a standard nut like this. I’ve got a few. The triangle nut is perhaps more elegant, but there’s no reason why a hex nut won’t work just as well at the simple job of clamping down on the ‘bars.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

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On Jun 17, 2020, at 10:44 AM, aeroperf <dore...@comcast.net> wrote:

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[George Schick]

Leah - if you want one like Eric shows (the kind that's also on your son's bike) I have one on an unused Nitto stem I can let you have just for the asking.  Lemme know and I'll drop into an envelope.

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 11:33:40 AM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

The one on my teenager’s Clem has that. I’d love to have it for this stem - where do I get it?

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 17, 2020, at 9:32 AM, 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Here is what you should have:

<image.jpeg>

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

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On Jun 17, 2020, at 9:30 AM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Eric, that’s the nut that came with it, and it’s the same nut on the other Technomic stem I have. How can it be wrong? Both stems were purchased new.

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 17, 2020, at 9:29 AM, 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

That is the wrong nut. Nitto uses a triangular shaped nut on the back side. I don’t know that what you’re using is dangerous, but you should by all means get the proper Nitto nut.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

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On Jun 17, 2020, at 9:26 AM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

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<Video.mov>

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On Jun 17, 2020, at 8:39 AM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



++1 on this.

The nut flats contact a 'flat' in the casting, and when you tighten the allen in front, the 2 flats contact each other, and the nut does not rotate as you tighten it.  Visually check the BACK of the stem for the nut flat to line up with the stem casting flat to line up.

I would do this before greasing or oiling anything.  The bar is NOT designed to move or rotate in the clamp and needs grease only to prevent galvanic corrosion (dis-simiiar metals like steel in Al)

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 11:15:55 AM UTC-4, lconley wrote:

Ok, what of the strangely spinning bolt?

Some Nitto stems have a nut on the backside that needs a wrench on it when you turn the Allen wrench on the front bolt to keep it from spinning, some do not. If you have a nut on the back of the stem that you did not hold still while you were turning the Allen wrench, that is likely your problem - the stem bolt was never tight.

Laing 

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[John Hawrylak]

Leah

From the video:

1. The stem seems to have excessive distance from the bolt to the 'shelf" which stops the nut rotation. The excessive distance allows the nut to rotate when tightened

2 The "shelf" flat appears straight and does not have a rounded out center, as would occur if the bolt was over torqued and caused the nut to 'tear' through the Al body.  This needs a close visual exam to verify, the video was not close enough.  Whoever installed the original or a later bar may have over-tightened it

Clearly, the stem is designed to capture the nut, as others have stated.  So your stem appears to have a manufacturing defect or less likely was over torqued and tore thru the Al.

You have 2 courses of action, if you ruled out over-tightening via close visual exam:
1.  Use the stem, tightening with a wrench and use a star washer underneath to prevent loosening

2.  Contact RBW and explain they sold you a defective stem

 John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[tuolumne bikes]

Regarding the nut, hex or otherwise. I've never needed to put a wrench on it, but if it were spinning, I would. If you can get the bolt tight, it works fine regardless of how the nut was restrained while tightening it. If I worked in a bike shop, I'd hold the nut with a wrench to avoid putting a nick in the bottom of someone else's stem.

Regarding the creaks. Quill to steel steerer tube has always been greased because steel rusts. Using a super long quill with minimal insertion might be cause for creaking there, since the lever arm from the top of the stem about the top of the quill/steerer interface is so long. Nitto would get the blame since they make the long quill stems, but it's not really an indicator that the stem is faulty.

There are two (significant) ways the bars exert force on the bar/stem interface. The center of the bars can deform slightly due to up/down/forward/rearward forces on the bars, and the bars can rotate in the clamp. Back in the day road bars were 40-42 cm wide plus or minus. Many bars are much wider now, so the lever arm for up/down/forward/rearward is longer. Similarly for bars with long backsweep, especially Boscos, the lever arm for rotation of the bars in the clamp is much longer. The stresses of "big bars" are larger at the clamp.

I've never lubed the bar to stem interface in forty years and creaking hasn't been an issue until using wide Albastache bars. They creak if I pull hard on them, I ignore so far. Seems like the sleeve/bar interface would be the more likely culprit, so maybe I'll try some chain lube there.

As an experiment, you could try riding your creaky bars hard and bumpy in the narrower/more forward position to see if you can get a creak. That won't solve the creaking problem, but would prove the point about the lever arm.

Carl

[Joe Bernard]

In this case the noise is definitely at the clamp, I saw a video where she loosened the clamp enough to move the bars up and down and the creak turned DEAFENING. This is WAY unusual to me and I've worked with dozens of Nitto stem/bar combinations, but here we are. A. I hope grease cures it for now. B. I don't trust that stem. She needs a new one.

[Leah Peterson]

George, that’s so, so kind. I’m hoping to find another 280 mm tall stem, however. They’re rare like unicorns, so I’m guessing you have the 225 mm. But thank you so much - that was heart-warming. ❤️

Leah

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[Leah Peterson]

So, I took most of the advice here so far. Including that I swapped back to the Tall Boy stem after using some T9 at the stem/bar interface. I used a wrench to ensure the bolt was truly tight and I rode around the neighborhood. All is silent.

I’m still concerned about the safety of the stem because John and Joe both consider my stem suspect. I also know Nitto has issues now and then with QC. John - I’d do that visual inspection and even send you the photos/video but now that I’ve got everything set up again I’m leaving it. I hope it’s not dangerous. Kind of the worst thing to go on your bike, you know? *Shudder.*

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 17, 2020, at 12:31 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In this case the noise is definitely at the clamp, I saw a video where she loosened the clamp enough to move the bars up and down and the creak turned DEAFENING. This is WAY unusual to me and I've worked with dozens of Nitto stem/bar combinations, but here we are. A. I hope grease cures it for now. B. I don't trust that stem. She needs a new one.

>
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[George Schick]

OK, that's fine. Whatever you decide to do.  But I wasn't referring to the entire stem, just the triangular nut and the bolt with it so you can replace the ones that aren't working.  As far as the entire tall stem is concerned, I used to have one of those so I went down to root around in my parts box(es) and couldn't find it.  So I must've given it to someone else in the past.

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[Leah Peterson]

PS Yes, I plan to replace the stem. It’s not possible now as they are only at SomaFab and the 50 is sold out in 280 mm height.

Also, someone asked about how high I have the bars. I don’t have the stem minimally inserted - there is a healthy distance between my chosen setting and the max height line.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 17, 2020, at 12:40 PM, Leah Peterson <Jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So, I took most of the advice here so far. Including that I swapped back to the Tall Boy stem after using some T9 at the stem/bar interface. I used a wrench to ensure the bolt was truly tight and I rode around the neighborhood. All is silent.

[Leah Peterson]

George, my heart is warmed anyway! 😂 Clearly I did not read that post correctly! 

I ordered the triangle nut from Riv already, but thank you. Also, you’re the second person to have said you had a Tall Boy stem and got rid of it. But why? I adore this tall stem and can’t get used to anything less now. I had the 225 mm Technomic on this morning and I just hated it. 

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On Jun 17, 2020, at 12:43 PM, George Schick <Bhi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[George Schick]

Leah - it all has to do with your frame dimensions and how high you want the bars to be.  I can't recall how I wound up with that stem in the first place, but it turned out to be way too long for the way I wanted to set up a particular bike.  So, at the first opportunity I passed it along to the next cyclist who needed it.

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[Doug Hansford]

Wrenching bikes as needed can be frustrating but it's fun too. Lone Wolf Leah you are tuned to every single noise a bike makes, just as I am. I think there was a time I didn't focus so much on noises; but, as I started installing and switching out parts I think I paid more attention to noises and such. I had to really torque a single bolt stem when I used the Bosco bars because they apply such force to the connection based on leverage I guess. I hope you get it solved.

Doug Hansford

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[John Hawrylak]

Leah

I'm sorry if "defective" implied "unsafe".  I meant the stem does not meet it's design and hence is defective.  The Nitto design of the nut and shelf interface has a small of margin of error, since the hex nut has short flats.

I do NOT think the stem is unsafe to ride since you used a wrench on the bolt to obtain adequate clamp force, and the creak is not present.

If it was on my bike, I would use it and if the creak started again, place a star washer under the bolt to prevent loosening.  The creak is your 'clamp too loose' indicator.

Alternatively, contact and RBW and see what if this covered by their return policy.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Leah Peterson]

Whew, I’m glad to have that clarified, and thank you, John. 

I did my 10 miler tonight and I think the ticking is mostly resolved. It was a windy night, and I was moving pretty quickly and there were a lot of people out and about, so it was difficult to really hear. I think I did hear some small ticking maybe 8 miles in, but it was aberrant. I’m hoping the T9 works its way deeper into the crevices. I have real stem grease coming via Amazon tomorrow - do you all think I should add that to the stem/bar interface as well? 

Thanks for all the help today; I’m getting more of an understanding about how stuff works on the bike. It’s both enlightening and terrifying - can I admit that here among all these enthusiasts? Why should more knowledge be terrifying? Well, I used to ride bikes without thought as to what could go wrong. Little noises weren’t even noticed. But the more I know, the more I realize can go wrong. 

This week lots went wrong on the bike. A couple nights ago I was headed down Killer Hill at speed and noticed that my Edelux headlight had some play in it. Huh, I thought, I don’t remember it moving like that... It all got worse fast, so I came to a screeching halt in time for something silver and round to fall off from the light mount, as the light hung loosely from it. I realized that the silver hoop was one of two parts, and the other, an inch long rod-type thing was missing. I backtracked and found the little silver rod up the hill a ways (WHEW) and put it back the way I thought it should go. 

Shaken up by THAT but determined the show must go on, I mounted my bike, and set off rather gingerly, as I feared the light mount loosening again. I pushed off, towards a crossing and was nearly run down by an SUV whose driver decided to run a stop sign. After some unpleasantries between us (I admit to nothing), I was then forced to suffer the indignity of being passed by a Roadie who was at least 20 years my senior.

If you still don’t feel sorry for me, I will add the final straw was taking a turn too tightly and hearing the sickening sound of metal scraping concrete while feeling the bike underneath me skitter sideways. Pedal strike. With my light mount barely holding and my pedal now noticeably scuffed, I pointed my bike towards home. 

Last night, the ticking in my bars was obnoxious and I was about to start getting tics of my own. Arriving home, I set to work with my hex wrenches trying to see where the noise was coming from. I found several loose things, also disturbing. I came inside, started this thread and went to bed at midnight.

After swapping the stem a couple times today and all the futzing around and guesswork, I envisioned the bike coming apart beneath me on tonight’s descent. But, hey, everything held!

So, thanks for all the help; I’m in need of it and I have learned a LOT from this group. But I still maintain that knowing more is frightening.

Leah

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On Jun 17, 2020, at 1:12 PM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Joe Bernard]

Knowledge is power. Both can be scary!

[Sal]

do NOT grease the stem/bar interface! 

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[Joe Bernard]

Sal, she says she used a little Boeshield on it. Is that ok and grease is bad, or are you saying nah to both?

[Sal]

I was replying to this: "I’m hoping the T9 works its way deeper into the crevices. I have real stem grease coming via Amazon tomorrow - do you all think I should add that to the stem/bar interface as well? "

The stem/bar interface should get nothing, the stem/steerer interface should get grease, and I'll admit I missed what crevices the T-9 is supposed to be working its way into... it won't hurt the stem/steerer interface but it probably won't help much either: a thicker grease is better there. 

Boeshield is for where you want to lube or prevent corrosion, neither of which is the case at the handlebar clamp. Handlebar clamp area should be clean and dry and the correct size for the stem being used, otherwise bar may slip. Worth checking all threads involved (stem bolts) and making sure the threads aren't dry, though. 

[Nick Payne]

On Thursday, 18 June 2020 02:29:32 UTC+10, Eric Norris wrote:

That is the wrong nut. Nitto uses a triangular shaped nut on the back side. I don’t know that what you’re using is dangerous, but you should by all means get the proper Nitto nut.

The Technomic Deluxe uses the triangular nut you describe, but the taller Technomic stems come with a standard hex nut. There's supposed to be a lip that one of the flats of the hex nut bears against to stop it turning, but the lip is not very deep.

Nick

[John Hawrylak]

Leah

Sounds like a harrowing ride.

When you got home, was the nut on the stem clamp bolt loose???   If so how much loose????

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Mark Roland]

Yeah, I'm generally not a proponent of greasing the stem-handlebar interface as noted in my reply above. But of course a seat post gets greased and is also not designed to move, and many have lubed the stem/bar area to get rid of noise. So assuming the bar and stem are the correct size for one another,  I suppose it may be fine. Although I recall one time putting some T-9 on my squeaky saddle springs, and one of the nuts holding the spring undid itself shortly thereafter. DW-40 might actually be better in this application, as it tends to dry sticky.

[John Hawrylak]

Leah

Did you try your current AL bars in a DIFFERENT stem??   Did the  bars 'tick' in the different stem???

I probably missed it in the previous posts.  Get mixed up between all the Technomics

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ 

[Leah Peterson]

I tried the bars in a different Technomic stem, same hex nut, and no ticking.

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On Jun 18, 2020, at 6:06 AM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Leah Peterson]

I don’t know. I went after my whole bike with hex keys to see if I could find the source of the ticking. When I went to tighten the bolt at the stem clamp, I noticed the hex nut also turning, making the bolt feel stripped to me. I had my husband mess around with the hex nut, so not sure if it was loose or not. But we did make sure it was nice and snug at the end of our fussing with it. The tick never improved.

Next day I used the T9 on the interface of stem/bar and it seems to have stopped for now.

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On Jun 18, 2020, at 5:58 AM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Leah Peterson]

Here is another thing someone PMd me that may be of interest. I have not done this yet, but it sounds like a good next step If the ticking returns: 

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/creaks.html#bars

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On Jun 16, 2020, at 10:15 PM, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have the extra tall Nitto stem with 50 mm reach. SomaFab makes it, Riv got it for and sold it to me and I love it. Everything seemed fine and then I gave my Clementine that major makeover I’ve gone on about on a separate thread. While I was lightening my bike I decided I should swap the cromo 55 Boscos for 52 aluminum Boscos. And those I love as well - they are perfect for me.

However, I noticed I’ve developed a strange ticking in the bars. Yes, it’s definitely from there, but what is NOT clear is if it’s the stem or the new Boscos. I took a video tonight, and you can hear the sound. It happens randomly, regardless of whether or not I’m pushing on my bars, but I can *also* create the ticking by jostling the bars. I’ll include a video where you can hear it in the next post.

Anyway, let’s talk about the stem first. Two things:
1. When I slid my new aluminum Boscos into the clamp on my stem and went to tighten the bolt, the bolt felt “stripped.” Which it could not possibly be, and which I had never experienced before (I installed the 55 cromo bars with no issue). Opposite the bolt is a nut that requires you to stabilize it with a wrench while you use your hex key to tighten the clamp onto your bars. Weird.

2. Can the ticking sound be because the stem is used to the cromo bar that was installed prior, and now it won’t play well with another bar?

Bars.
1. The aluminum bars have a sheath in the middle, where the clamp goes. Could the sheath have something to do with the ticking sounds? I have heard Nitto has QC issues. Could that be what I’m experiencing?

Videos and link to the stem in next post. One day, maybe I’ll get my bike problems solved. Oh, how you all long for that day!
Sorry! And thanks,
Leah

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[Patrick Moore]

The Soma stem worked with the steel Bosco, which has a sleeve (judging by the catalogue photo), and the aluminum Bosco worked fine with the Tech Deluxe; so it looks as if tiny manufacturing variations just cause sufficient mismatch between this particular stem and this particular bar. I agree that if all is as it should be with stem and bar, the bar should not creak in the stem clamp, and that well-matched bar and stem don't require lubrication to keep them quient, but I suppose that there are always chance variations that on occasion can add up to a de facto mis-match.

Me, I'd look for another stem or another bar, but I realize that this is not a solution that will appeal to everyone. Perhaps in this case the extra weight of the steel Bosco will be preferable to the creak? What is the difference in weight, anyway?

I'll be curious to hear of the resolution.

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[John Hawrylak]

Leah

Based on everything so far, I think the problem is:

The stem clamp is oversized and not a 'true' 25.4mm clamp.  It results in insufficient clamp force on the AL bar allowing sipping, but provides enough force on the CrMo bar to hold it in place.

Why:  The Al bar does not creak in a Techonomic stem with a similar hex nut.  This indicates the bar center section is the correct diameter for a 25.4mm stem clamp.  I am assuming the similar stem has a 25.4mm stem clamp

Possible Test:  The ticking should occur after you install the triangular nut, since insufficient bolt torque is not the direct cause.

Possible Solution:  Install a Nitto Shim (25.4 to 26) to counter the oversize clamp.  You can try only 1/2 the shim (it comes as split pair) and see if the tick stops.

There maybe issues with the bolt itself, but I can not think of the mechanism.

Don't mean to be short, got to get my house chores done.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Joe Bernard]

I believe the situation is this, based on information I have: the steel bar fit in both of her stems just fine, and is ever-so-slightly bigger in diameter than her new alu Bosco, a phenomenon I also discovered whilst owning both bars. They're both nominally 25.4, but one is more and one less.

What happened was Leah aka Bicycle Belle aka Lone Wolf Leah popped her new/smaller bar in that stem and it slightly ovalized around its new smaller host, creating a gap somewhere which the bar is responding to by ticking or creaking as the two metals try to move around in that nearly invisible gap. I've certainly seen this ovalizing before, but never had a noise problem with it. For the moment the T9 seems to have filled that space and the noise is gone. Yay!

Someone asked about the steel vs. aluminum Bosco. Her alu version is 52cm vs. the steel 55.

[John Hawrylak]

Joe 

I would expect Nitto to have designed the tolerances of THEIR stem and THEIR bar to mate every time, if both are labelled 25.4mm.  IF a problem occurs, Then it is POOR manufacturing, and not a "Oh Well, that's how it goes, we just have to accept it".  Certainty not what we expect from Japanese quality for a pretty pricey stem, $99.99 on the Soma site.

Based on what was stated, the noise still exists with the nut tightened with a wrench holding it.  A shim would correct the dimensional mismatch and is 1 solution. 

These problems are typically a 'chicken/egg" problem, was the bar always undersized or was the NEW stem oversized.  I suggest the stem is the problem as it was the last change.  The bar can be measured for clamp area diameter, 25.4mm per Nitto catalog & and ovality. 

As others have pointed out, any liquid lubricate does not stop movement due to dimensions not being correct.  

Finally, I think RBW has some responsibility in this as they sold Leah the 280mm quill Technomic and it appears to have an oversized stem clamp.  Grant is not shy about stating how close/well they work Nitto.  This is a chance for them to prove it, help Leah with her problem so she is :

1.  a satisfied customer

2.  Does NOT have lingering fears of riding, due to noises made by the manufacturer not adhering to tolerances.

Note, I am faulting RBW for not knowing this when they sold it.  They specified the correct size stem for the bar and there is no reason to check it ahead of time

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Leah Peterson]

John, what you say is true. Nitto products are expensive and should work perfectly. And even though you’re right and I should talk to Riv about this, I don’t think I can do it. If I discovered it was the bar (which I purchased from Rivendell’s website directly), I would definitely ask for their assistance. But it feels like the acquisition of this Soma stem was a favor to me, so I’m chickening out about complaining.

I’m still not sure which part is the defective party.

1. The SomaFab Nitto stem worked wonderfully with my 55 cromo Bosco bar.

2. I switched the 55 for the 52 aluminum Bosco and THAT’S when the noise started.

3. I then swapped stems to see what would happen. Replacing the Tall Boy with a regular Technomic stem and my new 52 aluminum bars = no noise.

4. Still not willing to leave well enough alone, I lubed the stem/bar interface and put Tall Boy back on the bike with new 52 aluminum Bosco (which was the setup in question) and no noise.

I fear I may never know. 😔

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 18, 2020, at 12:26 PM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Mark Roland]

I have a slightly different view of the situation. The world is not perfect. Even Japanese manufacturing tolerances. Even Rivendell. But let's be clear, this is a high class problem, a slight ticking noise. As I understand it, the bars were never slipping in the stem. Nothing came with the wrong or defective parts. There was no suggestion that a dangerous situation was imminent. The setup was fine until the bar swap.

Bikes develop noises. Some are warnings. Some are simply annoyances. We fix the ones that tell us of possible danger ahead. We live with others or we make them go away. It appears this noise is a case of driving the rider crazy. I get that! It can really detract from enjoyment of the ride. (Although to keep my baseline, my '84 Trek 830 has so many creaks and squeaks that when I get on anything else it sounds like a mouse taking a pee on a cotton ball in comparison.)

Just by nature a steel bar is going to be different than an aluminum bar. It's even possible that at some point, the stem bolt was overtightened, resulting in an ever so slight deformation of the aluminum bar's clamp area. Who knows. I don't own a torque wrench, but could be useful in a situation like this.

I could be wrong, but I don't really see anything that screams danger or defect or negligence here, or poor quality control by Nitto or any responsibility on Rivendell's part--not that they might offer to help resolve the issue anyway, despite having, as Leah notes, procured the stem from another vendor as a favor. And, like a squeaky hinge, it seems that a little shot of lube has done the trick. Fingers crossed. ( A bit of a beer or soda can shim can also fill in, and will likely last longer than lube.)

[Doug Hansford]

Mark,

The same thoughts went through my head today as I drove my 2002 Toyota 4Runner that has more than 205,000 miles on it. It runs so well and is solid and just well-made. But, it has a few rattles and quirks that I can live with that don't affect the performance or safety. Leah's bike and components are of course much newer and less complex than a 4Runner but nothing is exempt from slight noises and rattles. The stem/handlebar connection is important but if it is truly just a noise that doesn't seem to be leading to failure then one has to decide if they can or cannot live with it. When I start hearing a noise like that it's hard to unhear it or ignore it though. Oh to be on my BMX bike again not caring about the details.

Doug

[Joe Bernard]

The problem for me if the stem/bar junction is ticking/creaking is I'll worry myself to death over it. It steers the bike, it's gotta look, feel and sound safe.

[John Hawrylak]

Leah

OK, I thought the tick came back on 6/17 10 mile ride.   If no tick, then use the triangular nut you bought from RBW, since it will absolutely contact the stem shelf and allow for bolt tightening without using a wrench.  

I still would NOT lube the stem/bar interface.  The link to St Sheldon recommended Loctite which is not lube, but a fairly drastic correction.

Good luck, it's been a fun journey.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Leah Peterson]

Shoot, John, you’re right again - yes, I did think I heard the noise once or twice on 6.17 but it was rare. Sorry!

I’m still monitoring it. We’ll see what tonight brings. Thanks for all your help. I’m definitely better off having read this thread. 

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 18, 2020, at 2:11 PM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Surlyprof]

This thread brings to mind a solution from “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance”...
... beer can shim! When his riding companion encountered a similar problem, the author suggested cutting a shim piece out of the side of his freshly emptied beer can. The combination of soft metal and residual beer (Don’t clean it!) would provide just the right amount of stickiness.

Of course his traveling companion was mortified by the suggestion of fixing his BMW with a chunk of a beer can which sets up a long discussion of personality types, hired mechanics, thoughts about quality, etc. Might be an interesting personality litmus test. Who’s willing to fix their Riv with a chunk of a beer can and, who’s not?

John

[Leah Peterson]

I did another 10 mile loop again last night and no ticking/creaking or anything. While I was out, I got an email from Soma saying they forwarded my email (which had videos that I hope show the situation) to Nitto and they hope to hear back this weekend. I’m glad Nitto will know about it; stems and bars are rather important parts of a bike.

As far as the aluminum Bosco (I think someone asked me about it), yes, it is noticeably lighter than the cromo bar. However, I’m not sure I like it better. I can feel a little flex I don’t remember on the cromo and also I think I feel bumps through it. So, not sure the weight savings was worth it. But I do LOVE the 52 vs the 55. That was a huge, huge improvement. I think I’ll do 52 cromo Boscos on my upcoming Platypus.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 19, 2020, at 2:23 AM, Surlyprof <jmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This thread brings to mind a solution from “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance”...

> ... beer can shim! When his riding companion encountered a similar problem, the author suggested cutting a shim piece out of the side of his freshly emptied beer can. The combination of soft metal and residual beer (Don’t clean it!) would provide just the right amount of stickiness.
>
> Of course his traveling companion was mortified by the suggestion of fixing his BMW with a chunk of a beer can which sets up a long discussion of personality types, hired mechanics, thoughts about quality, etc. Might be an interesting personality litmus test. Who’s willing to fix their Riv with a chunk of a beer can and, who’s not?
>
> John
>

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[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

LOL! I'm quite sensitive to odd noises. One time, one minute after getting into her car, I even picked out that something was amiss with the engine because it didn't sound right. Despite the car being her daily driver (and so she should be most familiar with it), she didn't hear anything strange. I had to stop the car, open the hood, poke around, and show her that airbox cover was not seated correctly. It's a curse! :)

Strangely enough, even if I hate creaks and rattles, I quite enjoy some bicycle noises. Like Campagnolo drivetrains that are never as quiet as Shimano's, the slight tick-tick-tick of Sturmey-Archer IGHs, the distinct hum of knobby tires on dirt/gravelly roads, or the wao-wao-wao of deep-section wheels run at high speeds. These are endearing sounds that invoke great memories for me.

Back to Leah's problem, I think sleeved Nitto handlebars are known to be prone to creaks. The solution, as Leah found out, is to introduce a bit of a lube between the handlebar and sleeve, so the metal-on-metal contact and motion do not produce aggravating sounds (even if the contact and motion are still present). Introducing the lube doesn't degrade performance, but is still a hack. I would have used some sort of Loctite low-viscosity retaining compound, or get the non-sleeved version if available.

[Ray Varella]

Leah, just out of curiosity, was your headlight contributing to the ticking?
If it was loose enough for parts to fall off, it may be adding to the vexing sound.

Ray

[Leah Peterson]

No, the headlight was fixed and the ticking definitely comes from the bars. You can hear it clearly. You know how it is often difficult to determine the etiology of a noise a bike is making? This is not one of those - it’s clearly in the bars/stem.

Did you watch the videos I included?

[Ray Varella]

I get a triangle with a slash through it when I try to watch the videos.

[Leah Peterson]

When you open them it should offer you “view” or “download”. Click download. Should work! 😄

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 20, 2020, at 10:59 AM, Ray Varella <rayvar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I get a triangle with a slash through it when I try to watch the videos.

>
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[Ray Varella]

Either way, I get the same results.
And sometimes I click download and it just reopens the thread.

Thank you

[Joe Bernard]

Ray, I saw a video where she loosened the clamp a bit and moved the bars up and down..the noise was rather astonishing. I don't know what's causing that particular sleeve to make such a racket with that particular stem, but the dollop of Boeshield she added seems to have solved it.

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Saturday, June 20, 2020 at 11:09:18 AM UTC-7, Ray Varella wrote:

Either way, I get the same results.
And sometimes I click download and it just reopens the thread.  

Ray, Leah's videos didn't play on my iPhone nor iPad, but was fine when downloaded and played on the computer. I have no idea what's the issue is, but this is a solution that worked for me.

[Ray Varella]

Thanks Joe and Benz.

Leah sent the videos.
She said she could find any sharp edges or burrs that would have made the gouge.
It’s possible there was a chip or bit of shavings that made the gouge and possibly contributed to the noise.

Ray

[Joe Bernard]

I think that's possible, Ray. I also have a theory that the stem ovalized a bit when clamping on the new ever-so-slightly-smaller bar, but I saw a burr inside that stem that the bar may have been dragging and creaking on.

Which reminds me, we need a nice tall quill stem with an open face clamp!

[Jeremy Till]

I can't say that I've read every post in the thread but just to echo something Benz said: in my experience creaking is endemic with all of the various sleeved Nitto bars, so if the bar in question is of the sleeved variety that's probably the culprit in my mind. If I remember correctly the sleeved aluminum Boscos that I rode from 2014-2016 creaked, and those were clamped in a 4 bolt removable faceplate threadless stem of the appropriate size, so one of the most solid bar/stem connections out there. The M151 drop bars i currently have on my Rambouillet with a Technomic Deluxe creak when I pedal out of the saddle. I've always just lived with it because it didn't really bother me and didn't seem to get worse or otherwise make me feel like something was about to fail. YMMV, of course, but if avoiding the creak was a priority and the other solutions suggested didn't work, I'd consider going back to the steel Boscos (which I assume weren't sleeved) or other non sleeved bars.

-Jeremy Till
Sacramento, CA

[Leah Peterson]

Yes, Jeremy, I think I’m doing 52 steel Boscos on the Platypus. I don’t want bars with sleeves anymore.

For anyone who needs to know: If you want to rid the Technomic stem of the hex nut and replace it with the triangular nut from Riv, make sure you also order the bolt. Neither Mark nor I thought I’d need the bolt, but you do, because the threads are different from one another. Get both bolt and stem. I just placed my order for the bolt, so hopefully it comes in a few days and this is the end of the matter!

Leah

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 20, 2020, at 1:05 PM, Jeremy Till <jerem...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I can't say that I've read every post in the thread but just to echo something Benz said: in my experience creaking is endemic with all of the various sleeved Nitto bars, so if the bar in question is of the sleeved variety that's probably the culprit in my mind. If I remember correctly the sleeved aluminum Boscos that I rode from 2014-2016 creaked, and those were clamped in a 4 bolt removable faceplate threadless stem of the appropriate size, so one of the most solid bar/stem connections out there. The M151 drop bars i currently have on my Rambouillet with a Technomic Deluxe creak when I pedal out of the saddle. I've always just lived with it because it didn't really bother me and didn't seem to get worse or otherwise make me feel like something was about to fail. YMMV, of course, but if avoiding the creak was a priority and the other solutions suggested didn't work, I'd consider going back to the steel Boscos (which I assume weren't sleeved) or other non sleeved bars.
>
> -Jeremy Till
> Sacramento, CA
>

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[Joe Bernard]

I never in a million years would have guessed the bolt would be different, too. Oops!

[John Hawrylak]

Leah

When you install the bolt & triangular nut, can you post a picture of the "shelf" without any bolt or nut present??   If the shelf shows no signs of missing metal where the hex bolt contacted it, then the hole for the bolt was drilled lower than it should have been drilled.   This is a possible source of the less than adequate tightening of the stem clamp

I still do not see a mechanistic explanation of why the sleeve on the bar is a source of the ticking noise.    I have used a B177 (Noddle) and a B132 (radonnuer) in 225mm quill technomics without any sounds.

Without an explanation, other than it happened to others, I would be weary of ruling out use of sleeved bars.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ. 

> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

[Jeremy Till]

I think the mechanical explanation with the sleeve would be that the joint between the sleeve and bar is not uniform for the length of the sleeve and thus there is some portion where it is not tight, so the sleeve and bar can move ever so slightly in relation to one another under stress, producing a creaking sound. To be honest I'm not familiar with the manufacturing methods, whether the sleeve is crimped into place or bonded or both. But it seems reasonable that either way there was some small area, probably near the ends of the sleeve, where small movements might be possible. That would explain why people have been successful in addressing the creak by either dripping lubricant or adhesive (loctite or similar) into the sleeve/bar joint. That it was able to penetrate at all suggests there might looser areas and that lubricating the two surfaces or adhering them to reduce movement suggests that small displacements in these areas would be the cause of the noise.  

Again, I still trust the quality of Nitto products and the small amount of creaking I've experienced doesn't make me fear that my bar or stem is going to fail.  

-Jeremy Till

Sacramento, CA

[Joe Bernard]

I'm still in the "it's the stem" camp. Reasons: 1. When she loosened it and moved the bars up and down the noise was worse. 2. When she slid the bars out there was a good bit of gouging on the sleeve like it was dragging on something in there. 3. I saw a pic inside the stem and think I could see the burr causing that drag. Conclusion: Boscos put a massive amount of leverage on that narrow little clamp and I think the interface in there was wonky enough to cause a tick/creak.

[John Hawrylak]

Jeremy

I agree with your explanation of the 'creaking' of sleeved bars.  Measuring a B177 & B132 & a 1988 Sakae Road Champion, the sleeve is about 1.0mm, probably slightly thicker to provide a sleeve ID < Bar OD for an interference fit to the bar.  I imagine the sleeve is heated and then placed on the bar, and the bar is then bent.

I agree there is no reason to doubt the integrity of the sleeve/bar and would not avoid using a sleeved bar.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ 

[John Hawrylak]

Joe

Good catch on the burr.  Are you saying the burr interfered with the initial tightening of the stem clamp, resulting in less than adequate tightening force, allowing slippage and gouging?   

Leah, can you confirm if a burr in the stem was/is present and if the bar sleeve is gouged?

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Leah Peterson]

Honestly, I don’t know what happened. Here are some videos that show the stem after I pulled the bar out. Also, the damage to the sleeve of the bar...

I will also look at the shelf part again when I get the new bolt to switch out with the old, so I can put on my triangular nut...

[John Hawrylak]

Joe

I think you are correct about something inside the stem clamp causing the gouging and resulting in the looseness.   The inside of the stem clamp looks 'terrible" for a machined surface.  The "gouged" Al bar worked in the normal Technomic stem, so the markings on the bar sleeve and clamp area do not appear to be the cause, just a result of something inside the stem clamp..

The question would be what produced the 'burr' or 'burrs' inside the stem clamp.  Did Nitto manufacture it with burrs??  Did some foreign material get inside the clamp after manufacturing at Nitto??  Did something happening during shipping or handling??  Did Leah do something??  Was something on the bar when it was inserted through the clamp???

I would use fine grit sandpaper or emery cloth to smooth out the iniside of the stem clamp, reduce any ridges from the gouging.   Not much can be done for the low spot of the gouge.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Tuesday, June 23, 2020 at 2:55:19 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

The stem worked fine on her steel bar, I don't know if it has that burr mark on it and I think it's long gone now. I don't imagine even my slightly obsessive bike detective skills are going to ever solve how the dang thing got in there, but I'd sure like to grab a piece of sandpaper and knock it down!

[Leah Peterson]

Hear no evil, see no evil. I don’t ever want to look under there again!

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 23, 2020, at 6:05 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The stem worked fine on her steel bar, I don't know if it has that burr mark on it and I think it's long gone now. I don't imagine even my slightly obsessive bike detective skills are going to ever solve how the dang thing got in there, but I'd sure like to grab a piece of sandpaper and knock it down!

>
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[Paul Brodek]

I've used these stems for a couple forevers, and never felt the "need" to use a wrench with the nut, but I always do. The "shelf," or maybe "ledge" is better?, isn't particularly deep, so I think using a wrench makes for more secure tightening. I'm also pretty retentive when it comes to this stuff, and if you don't use a wrench, when you torque down there's enough wiggle room for the nut to rotate maybe 5~10deg, so the nut flat isn't parallel to the ledge. My wrench fixes that.

Never seen a need for an extra washer, lubed threads and proper torque locks it down solid. I have at times under-torqued it in the stand, figuring I'd tighten it fully after making sure the bar angle was correct. If it's a 2am job, once in a while the final tightening doesn't get done in the stand. I usually figure that out as soon as it leaves the stand, though.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA 

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 2:00:32 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:

"Why are so many opposed to using a simple wrench on a nut as Nitto intended for this model stem?"

I don't think it's "opposed" so much as the other Nitto stems - like most one-bolt stems - don't work that way. I've had a bunch of both models and don't think I've ever used a wrench on that nut, it wouldn't have occurred to me.

[CB]

Aside from BBDD's stem issue, a number have noted that the sleeved bars sometimes creak. I would expect that the sleeve is inflexible when clamped properly in the stem. The bars flex quite a bit, and the flexing may deform the inner bar a tiny bit at the ends of the sleeve and cause the creak.

A similar effect might be expected between the stem clamp and bars for non-sleeved bars, but in that case tightening the clamp would reduce the deformation.
--
Carl

[Leah Peterson]

John asked for a photo when I swapped the bolts. I tried that tonight...bolt is too short. Sigh. But he asked for photos that show the shelf that the nut is supposed to rest against. (I think.)

Here are photos of the area in question. I hope you can see what you were looking for because I’m never taking that nut off again. I’m worried I’m going to wear it out and it will let me know on my way down Killer Hill.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 23, 2020, at 10:32 PM, CB <tuolum...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aside from BBDD's stem issue, a number have noted that the sleeved bars sometimes creak. I would expect that the sleeve is inflexible when clamped properly in the stem. The bars flex quite a bit, and the flexing may deform the inner bar a tiny bit at the ends of the sleeve and cause the creak.

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[Joe Bernard]

Yep, you ground a nice little divot out of that stem with the nut. Which annoys me to no end because the nut shouldn't be spaced far enough away from the surface to do that. Oy! But you've solved it by using a wrench on the nut so c'est la vie. That's French!

[Doug Hansford]

Dang, the bolt is too short. I thought I was the only one who just when I think I have the right parts, it doesn't work! Gash in the stem aside, that steel looks nice and strong. Hopefully you'll get it working just right soon. I'm a fan of nice clean chromoly parts on a bicycle and silver cranks, stems, and bars look classy on your bike.

Doug

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[John Hawrylak]

Leah

The pictures of the stem shelf were perfect.  Sorry to hear the bolt was too short.

The direct cause of the of the circular divot is Nitto drilled the hole for the Stem Bolt TOO LOW in the stem clamp . The lower stem bolt/hex nut resulted in the hex nut not being close to the shelf for it's flat to have a large surface area to resist the turning force of the bolt. The hex nut flat rotated through the shelf as you tightened the bolt, producing the small circular divot, resulting in the 'stripped' feeling in you stated in your original post.

The stem was not manufactured to the correct tolerances for the stem bolt hole to stem clap shelf distance.  It's useable with a correctly tightened nut.  However, I would recommend perusing a replacement stem via Soma/Nitto due to the manufacturing problem.  Hopefully, Nitto takes this as a 'learning opportunity' and adjusts their process.

The gouging on the inside of the stem and bar clamp area is troubling.  Most likely it was due to the bars rotating in the stem clamp due to insufficient tightening torque resulting from the stem bolt hole problem above.  It is possible Nitto had the gouged in the interior surface of the stem clamp during manufacture or left foreign material side the stem clamp.  

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Friday, June 26, 2020 at 12:25:17 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

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