The Rivendell Ride

[Joe Bernard]

This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted to post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames is slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk about other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about my custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem maybe not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your bikes! :

The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock (there's a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put it in a turn it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change it. It does this when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops right back to where it was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and nothing rides like a Rivendell 🙌

Joe Bernard 

[J J]

You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your experience on a gazillion bikes, what do you think accounts for “the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?

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[Joe Bernard]

Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going on with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail on the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 

[Ryan]

Yeah...Grant has something going on there that first drew me with the X0-1 ...which is like a sports car...and then there is something really plush about the road bike and the A/R I have. Plush, but far from sluggish. I don't know how he does it either , even though he's written about it a lot

[Luke Hendrickson]

My Monday ride to Olema from San Francisco confirmed the magic of the Rivendell Ride over the 80 miles of mixed terrain and 9k in climbing. I’m grateful to finally have one.

[Piaw Na]

Grant's 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 had a 54mm trail with 25mm tires. The 2022 Roadini had a trail of around 58mm but with a 5mm lower BB. The Cheviot (I can't find numbers for the Platypus) had a trail of 58mm with a 25mm tire (but obviously few people would run 25mm tires on that bike), but even with a 33mm tire it'll still be a 61mm trail, making the bike steer a little slower but still agile. I had a custom bike built around the 1993 RB-1 geometry with a lower BB, and it rides similarly great. Now when it comes to compliance, stiffness, etc., the tubing thickness etc matters more, but in terms of handling I think Grant has it dialed down and you can see that he pretty much keeps all his bikes in the same zone when it comes to trail. The longer wheel base that he's been going for recently adds alot to stability and high speed handling at the expense of packability into bike boxes, which few care about. If you were to buy say, a Craig Calfee carbon framed bike, it actually has a very similar geometry too the RB-1, and rides similarly, but of course being made out of carbon and with a short wheel base and relatively little tire clearance chances are that bike wouldn't appeal to the same people who like Rivendell bicycles.

[Chris L]

I remember reading where Grant, or one of his long-term employees but I think Grant, said on front end geometry handling there are a few numbers they hold to but they don't discuss them outside the shop.  Trail would be an obvious one, but I've always thought it would be interesting to hear the rest.  Jan Heine gets into what might be some of RBW's other unspoken factors in his book on performance bicycles.  

[larson....@gmail.com]

I built up a 2TT 62cm Appaloosa in February as my first Riv, and have enjoyed it very much. The over riding impression is that I know that this is a heavy bike (from lifting it onto my hitch rack), but it rides lively and relatively light, and comfortable and stable. It is hard to wrap my head around the contradiction of the weight of the bike vs. this ride feel and seems to be one of the defining Rivendell ride characteristics from the opinions of others.

Randy in Wisconsin

[RichS]

Joe, 

You're absolutely right about the ride characteristics or that ineffable "feel" of Rivendells. It only took a few minutes on my Sam to realize that magic.

Thank you Grant!

Best,

Rich in ATL

[Scott Luly]

Randy,

I'm curious, too, to get the group's take on your question as to weight vs. ride quality, as I'm currently building a new 62 Atlantis F/F. I'm wanting to do some dirt touring and bike packing on it. Hope I'm not in for a fat hog...

Scott

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/d8862995-637a-478e-bbd2-ebb8920aa0ban%40googlegroups.com

.

[larson....@gmail.com]

Scott,

I have never ridden an Atlantis, but would love to, and believe that you will love it. Looking forward to hearing your impressions going forward.

Randy

[Scott Luly]

Thanks, Randy. After pushing go, I reread your post and realized you were discussing the Appaloosa. Are they a bit heavy? I've heard same about 2TT Atlantis.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8a813c9f-0aa9-4066-952a-23d6d2917a5an%40googlegroups.com.

[Piaw Na]

Weight is always dependent on context. Here are the factors that I consider:

• The lighter you and your load is, the more weight of the bike matters. My 200 pound friends will never feel the difference between a 17 pound bike and a 28 pound bike, but at 140 pounds, I can tell the difference between a 22 pound bike and a 30 pound bike.
• The smoother the road surface, the more weight matters. A smooth road that encourages close to the traction limit cornering and won't bounce you around means that you value being able to flick your bike around a corner. Off pavement with rocks you're bouncing off of and corners being taken at 5mph means that you won't care if the weight causes you to overshoot a little.
• Load on a light frame will cause more flexiness and disconcerting handling than on a heavier frame. That's a given. Similarly, if you're a high power output rider a frame that's too light will break and not last a long time.
• If you frequently have to carry your bike up and down stairs and other obstacles weight matters a lot!

I'm light enough that I care about weight, but when I ride the heavy triplet (65 pounds) with my 2 kids (100+ pounds of additional load) and touring panniers, I am certainly going for "fine close to the traction limit" cornering.

[Mackenzy Albright]

I think the reason that Rivendells ride the way they do is the same reason Rivendell will never be financial powerhouse or direct "influencer". Grant is interested in feel, function, and aesthetic balance that  is "just right" counter to any sort of industry "trend" "study" "statistics" etc. 

He'll go down in history as an amazing designer and pioneer as an advocate for many trends. Ie steel, wheel sizes, rim brakes (revival - its happening), and I dare say eventually "wheelbase" will become a hot trend - i am calling it. watch out for specialized "long wheelbase bikes"

Admittedly, going from the original hunqapillar and atlantis traditional triangle frames towards the step through long wheel base bikes, i was extremely skeptical. But honestly they're some of the best feeling bikes ive ever ridden and grown to love them aesthetically. I think the design evolution starting with some of the early bridgestones through time into the current line of bikes makes perfect logical sense. I look foward to every model they release these days. 

It drives me nuts when people call rivendells overpriced 80's mountain bikes or "just get a long haul trucker its just a cheaper atlantis" it's comparing apples to apple pie. 

[John Hawrylak]

Joe

What is the Seat Tube Angle of your custom??

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[larson....@gmail.com]

I think the Appaloosa and Atlantis are similar in weight. I’m not a weight weenie and I don’t race, so I agree that weight is relative. I’m about 200 pounds so a couple extra pounds of bike weight is irrelative. I did find that I climbed better after I lost 20 pounds!

Randy in Wisconsin

[Joe Bernard]

Oh right, I have numbers for why my Rivendell rides the way it does. I forgot! 

71.5 seattube, 69.5 headtube. I wanted a pavement-biased frame for non-touring-level loads and this is how it turned out. 

[Piaw Na]

I think there's another factor, which is that he's not designing a bike that will be resold in 2-3 years for the latest/greatest gadget. The average mountain biker upgrades much more frequently than I do, and gravel bikes have evolved quickly as well to try to get people onto the upgrade treadmill. You can see road bike manufacturers doing the same thing. By contrast a Rivendell is a bike that will grow with you so you'll never outgrow it. There's a world of difference between designing a geometry that's nice in the parking lot (or one that's tuned for beginners) and one that you'll live with day in day out. 

[Paul Clifton]

Chris,

I've heard this too, about the trade secret numbers.

It made me wonder, has anyone ridden another bike that rides like a Rivendell?

To me, more-or-less like Joe said, it's nimble handling that also feels extremely stable. It's easy to change lines around a curve, but it's also easy to just let the bike hold it's line (straight or in corners).

I've ridden plenty of miles on two Rosco Bubbes (MTBubbe and Rosco Bebe), a Gus, and a tandem. I've ridden a few miles on a too small Clem L and a Sam. They all handle similarly. The thing that changes is position and how much bike is out front and how much bike is out back. The Bebe bike, with a lot of length out front really leads itself through the curves. The Gus kind of trails behind. But both are absurdly stable. I'd put the MTBubbe and the Sam as kind of neutral in that respect. I can choose to place the front or back wheel as a way to pick my line.

The only other bike I've ridden that comes close was my Surly Long Haul Trucker. It was not the same as a Riv, but it was stable, but not nimble (which may or may not have made me like it more or less). I finally realized that it was also a size too big, which I suspect has a tendency to make a bike less nimble - think about how nimble a BMX bike is for a full grown person ... I traded it for a 1984 Trek 720, which I don't consider either stable or nimble compared to the LHT or my Rivs. But it's still an alright bike.

But it's gotta be something about the trail and the ratio of rider weight over the front and back ends. So as rake increases, the rear end might also increase. I dunno, I'd love to make an spreadsheet.

Paul in AR

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-6 Chris L wrote:

[Piaw Na]

Are those 26" wheels or 650B?

[Joe Bernard]

650B. It looks huge because it is..this is in a sense a frame built for a disability, I have arthritis in my hands and asked for a super-upright Bosco Bars bike. He's never mentioned how he got to this design but what I see and feel is Grant stretched the front way out there, then added a very tall headtube so those bars would go up and shoot back at me. Then he added the long stays to take the shock out of bumps, which can be brutal enough on my wrists to make me turn around and go home. 

I see this frame as the ultimate expression of GP's thoughts about high bars and long wheelbase because I my needs basically offered: "More of that stuff please." 🙂

Joe "happy rider" Bernard 

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

I plugged it into the trail calculator with a 42mm tire and it says 58mm trail. What a coincidence!

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[brizbarn]

Could it simply be that if you are spending the money to buy a Rivendell, you are probably a pretty experienced rider and can handle your bike well. AND, you are so thrilled about how beautiful looking it is, that you to ride more often and more joyfully, and therefore better than you would some other basic looking bike?  

Mackenzy probably nailed it up above. And, I'm sure Rivendell geometry has been copied by other brands, but do those imitators get the love that Rivs get?  

[Joe Bernard]

In my case, no. I've owned and ridden just about every style of bike imaginable in approximately 55 years, including folders and 2- and 3-wheel recumbents. I'm not going to claim Rivs are better than everything else, but they provide a unique ride for me that I can't replicate elsewhere. 

[Piaw Na]

Mackenzy probably nailed it up above. And, I'm sure Rivendell geometry has been copied by other brands, but do those imitators get the love that Rivs get?  

I think the combination of slack seat tube, lowish BB, and long chainstays is pretty hard to find. Treks go for a 73 degree seat tube, as do Specialized and Soma. As for chainstays the Rivendells run 4cm or more longer than the rest of the industry. And that's not factoring in the size of the tubes which also affects the ride (in addition to steel vs carbon, etc). You pretty much have to go custom to get anywhere close to the geometry of a modern Rivendell bike. Then there's also the use of a quill stem and threaded headset which also makes the front end more flexy than the newer aheadset style stems. I'm always surprised by how stiff my custom touring bike is on the front end compared with the Roadini. Neither bikes are bad, but if I was going to ride on roughish pavement the Roadini definitely feels smoother.

 

 Look at a modern gravel bike like the Open UPPER (which Jan Heine praises as the ideal "all road" bike --- to the point where they're going to sell a special Rene Herse edition of it on their website) and the differences are even more stark. With 700c wheels and a 40mm tire, you're looking at a trail of 69mm, which is going to give a slowish handling that's worlds away from what a Rivendell has. Couple that with a steep seat tube and high BB there's no way it will ride like a Rivendell. Even with 650B wheels that bike still has a trail of 63mm, which is great for high speed fire road descents but isn't going to ride on pavement with the agility that you'll find in any of the Rivs.

[Brady Smith]

I don't have much to say about numbers, but I have a BMC Monster Cross and a Roadini that, with the exception of brevets, I mostly use interchangeably. On flats and uphill they feel like very similar bikes. Downhill is where the Roadini really shines. Coming down the canyons here in Utah, the BMC feels great up until about 30 mph, at which point it gets ever so twitchy--not so much as to be alarming, but enough that I don't feel inclined to push the bike much farther. The Roadini, though, is marvelously stable at any speed. I absolutely love it. 

Brady in SLC

[lconley]

Have you verified that was what got built? My Custom is thankfully different from the plan in some aspects. The plan shows Roadini style baseball bat tapered seat and and top tubes which I find ugly. Nobilette apparently just went with the big end size (31.8) for all of the main triangle tubes which is how I ended up with a 29.0 seatpost. It calls for a ball socket seat lug which I guess they don't have in 31.8 x 31.8 so I ended up with regular fluted seat stay caps. I haven't verified the angles yet, but the plan says mine has 72 deg seat tube angle and 71.5 head tube angle with a little more trail (62.9) than yours. I don't have any tube thickness info on my plans. It is a beautiful bike.

Laing

[RichS]

Paul asked about another bike that rides like a Rivendell. I have a Mercian Audax that was built to my specs with 725 tubing and 650b wheels. The bike rides and handles as well as any Rivendell I've owned. This is completely subjective of course and YMMV.

Best,

Rich in ATL

[Patrick Moore]

IMO, the "signature" ride of at least all the Rivendells I've ridden is the reason that Grant's designs remain my handling benchmark after almost 30 years and the reason that the 1999 Joe Starck custom is my favorite bike of all time.

Some of the 5 Rivs I've owned have handled better (to my taste) than others, but all have exhibited a unique (IME -- I stress this, tho' I've owned scores of bikes) combination of straight-line stability and unerring or seamless transition into turns: no "dartiness" on straights or dartiness or hesitation in turns.

One might be slower to turn-in than I liked, another might turn-in too fast, but none were either "nervous" or "sluggish."

I've sold on all but 1 of the 5: the first-gen Sam Hill  felt too sedate in handling for a road bike and didn't take tires fat enough for a (sandy soil) all rounder; also the steering flopped too much on steep, slow uphills when seated far back and torquing hard at slow cadences -- the way I like to climb; especially with a large rear load. But again, seamless in flatland cruising or downhill transition from straight to corner. The Ram also felt less nimble in turns than I liked -- I like the nimble feel of light "twenty six inch" (24" to 25 6/10") wheels. OTOH, the first (1994 order, 1995 delivery) custom was slightly too nervous, tho' even this was stable and predictable compared to other bikes, at least when I was riding 32 mm tires instead of the 22 mm gofast tires of the time. And the 2003 custom had tubing that was too stiff. But all very noticeably had that Grantian quality.

I compare all 5 with my current Matthews #1 with its 622X 60 Big One,s and it illustrates by contraries this signature Riv handling. Once you get up to speed -- 15 mph? -- the Matthews is steady and corners well: it is stable on the straights and predictable in the turns, tho' neither so stable straight or so "transparent" in turns as the Rivs. But at slower speeds it's by comparison noticeably more nervous in a straight line, yet hesitant then darty in corners. Note that this may be due in large or small part to the fat, soft 60--62 mm tires at 18-21 psi; if I shod it with 48s at 27-30 psi it might handle more like the Rivs. But I expect that, with all the virtues that make it a keeper, it still would not show that signature Riv handling. 

(Matthews #2 is a near-geometrical clone of the 2003 Riv custom and thus also exhibits Riv-like handling both with 29s and with 42s.)

On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 3:41 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted to post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames is slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk about other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about my custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem maybe not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your bikes! :

The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock (there's a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put it in a turn it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change it. It does this when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops right back to where it was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and nothing rides like a Rivendell 🙌

Joe Bernard 

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[John Hawrylak]

Rich

Can you share the STA, OD and wall thickness of the main tubes and the trail for the Mercian??   Curious as to how they compare to your Rivendells.

I looked at the Mercian 15 years ago and they are very nice frames/forks.   The price was good even at the exchange rate then.  Might be better with the better exchange rate now

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Joe Bernard]

Laing, 

To my eye the frame is pretty much what was in the plan. The only difference I can pick out is I ended up with the seattube reamed for 27.2 instead of 26.8. 

 I kinda wish there was a production version of this frame so everybody could ride one, it's amazing! 

[Nick Payne]

On Friday, 18 November 2022 at 2:18:11 pm UTC+11 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

 Look at a modern gravel bike like the Open UPPER (which Jan Heine praises as the ideal "all road" bike --- to the point where they're going to sell a special Rene Herse edition of it on their website) and the differences are even more stark. With 700c wheels and a 40mm tire, you're looking at a trail of 69mm, which is going to give a slowish handling that's worlds away from what a Rivendell has. Couple that with a steep seat tube and high BB there's no way it will ride like a Rivendell. Even with 650B wheels that bike still has a trail of 63mm, which is great for high speed fire road descents but isn't going to ride on pavement with the agility that you'll find in any of the Rivs.

As someone who actually owns an Open UPPER, in addition to four Rivendells (one custom and three off-the-shelf), plus a few other bikes, I have to say this is nonsense. I normally ride the Open as a road bike with Bon Jon Pass 700x35 tyres, and I've had both it and the Rivendells up and down winding mountain passes without feeling any shortcoming in the handling of any of them. When I plug HTA and fork rake into the trail calculator at http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/trailcalc.php, there's little difference:

Rivendell Romulus geometry: http://cyclofiend.com/rbw/romulus/romflyer/04.html. For the 61cm frame I have, with 35mm tyres the 73° HTA and 42.5mm rake gives 63mm of trail.

Open geometry: https://opencycle.com/updates/more-u-p--info---geometry. For the L size I have, 35mm tyres with 72.5°HTA and 50mm rake gives 58mm trail.

Nick

[John Hawrylak]

Nick

Interesting comparison between the Open and the Rivendell.   

Are you using seatposts with the same amount of seatpost setback on the Romulus and the Open???    The STA for a 61cm/Large frame are very close

Romulus   72° -     Open   71.5°

Also, do you notice any difference in handling/riding due to the slightly larger BBD on the Romulus?????

Romulus  77mm        Open  70mm

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Nick Payne]

On Thursday, 24 November 2022 at 7:44:57 am UTC+11 John Hawrylak wrote:

Interesting comparison between the Open and the Rivendell.   

Are you using seatposts with the same amount of seatpost setback on the Romulus and the Open???    The STA for a 61cm/Large frame are very close

Romulus   72° -     Open   71.5°

Yes, pretty much. A Ritchey seatpost on the Open and a Nitto on the Romulus, but the setback looks much the same on both. Berthoud leather saddles on both.

Also, do you notice any difference in handling/riding due to the slightly larger BBD on the Romulus?????

Romulus  77mm        Open  70mm

I can't say that BB drop is something that I've ever noticed as affecting handling. I used to race a Klein Quantum which had 64mm BB drop, and I've had that up and down the same mountains as the Rivendells with 80mm BB drop. The handling on both is fine.

Nick

[Tom Palmer]

Late to the thread, but I have only ridden the Platypus twice. The long bike really handles well. Goes where you want it, when you want it, with no drama. AND is crazy comfortable. Lighter than I anticipated also. 

Tom Palmer

Twin Lake, MI

[Richard Rose]

Another Michigan Riv Rider!

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 27, 2022, at 7:07 AM, Tom Palmer <volvot...@gmail.com> wrote:

Late to the thread, but I have only ridden the Platypus twice. The long bike really handles well. Goes where you want it, when you want it, with no drama. AND is crazy comfortable. Lighter than I anticipated also. 

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[Masa]

Hi Tom, I totally agree with you. I too got a Platypus (as my first Rivendell) and it is super comfortable.

The long chain stay gives stability and pushes me up when I climb up.

The Platypus makes me want to ride all day.

I like your build! My Platypus has black fenders too.

Masa

2022年11月27日日曜日 21:07:30 UTC+9 Tom Palmer: