Puzzled by 2 Rivendell recommendations

[Patrick Moore]

I learn more about Riv from Bike Snob than from their website, tho' that would easily be fixed if Grant posted more often.

Weiss has devoted a large part of several recent posts to his new Roaduno. He mentioned these suggestions, from Rivendell, today.

First, "don't use your Roaduno as a fixed gear:"

Second, in the catalogue description of the Mark's Rack:

ALWAYS use this rack with a tether between the tall tongue-loop and the handlebar. It's a strong little rack, but people do dumb things, and the tether is a safety measure. Make the tether out of cord or any adjustable strap.

I'm puzzled: first, why not use the Roaduno as a fixed gear or with a flip flop hub?

Second, I guess this is just extreme legal self-protection against truly clueless idiots, but do you many users of the Mark's Rack use a strap? It seems to me that a well-designed and well-built rack used with common-sense caution should not need such a makeshift backup.

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[Brian Turner]

I have never, and will never tether my racks with a “safety strap”.

Maybe I like to live dangerously, but also maybe I understand that tightening bolts and not overloading racks is important too.

[Eric Daume]

Riv is concerned the bottom bracket drop (80mm IIRC) is too low for a fixed gear—pedal strike concern. 

I would run it fixed without hesitation. 

Eric

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[DavidP]

More context from the Roaduno Questions page:

Does the Roaduno rear wheel have a “flip-flop” hub, for a fixed gear option? 
Yes, it's a flip flop hub. If you set it up fixed, use brakes, please. And careful around corners too; it's a low bottom bracket. 

-Dave

[iamkeith]

For the record, both of these have been discussed ad-nauseam in Rivendell  posts.  Whether it was Grant or Will or somebody else, I can't recall and don't want to spend time looking.  

The reasons, I'm less sure about recalling because they didn't affect me as much.  I believe they ar as follows:

1.  Unlike the Quickbeam (and Simple One), the bottom bracket on the Roaduno is lower like a typical Rivendell bike.  So pedaling around corners with a fixed gear is more treacherous.

2.  Nitto had some issues a few years back, with idiots putting too much weight on their front racks, and breaking them - leading to a risk of locking the front wheel.  I seem to recall the R-25 or M-18 had more issues than the  32-F (Campee rack originally designed aroung a Riv standard).  It might even ave been around the time that Riv introduced the Mark's rak.  I think perhaps Nitto even contemplated discontinuing them, but Riv convinced them to keep doing it if they were very diligent about specifying weight limits and recommending the safety strap, so Nitto keeps making them.  With very conservative limits.

On a related note:  While composing this and trying to recall the model numbers of the various racks, I discovered a Nitto NF-22 that I haven't seen before .  I wonder if that is an update to the R-25 rack that had issues, and eliminates a stress riser at the crown thruy- bolt by curving the strut.

[iamkeith]

Jeesh - I still got the rack names wrong.

This is the one I believe had issues.  M-12 (I think this is the one that had problems)

This is the one that looks like it might be a replacement NF-22

This is the Riv Campee.  32-F  ( I don't think this one had problems)

This is the M-18. Don't know if it had problems, but the diving board didn't allow it to carry much, which is why Mark designed his namesake rack:

This is the Mark's rack (M-1)

https://www.rivbike.com/products/nitto-marks-rack-m1-20108?srsltid=AfmBOoppX-H_u9HjigIIF_a-Wt1C5IalFtEmeRiFKz8KsdKv7D0g5Eqe

I already don't know what the hell I was talking about when I typed R-25.

[Patrick Moore]

Aha, got it. My fixed gear road custom has a large bb drop (forget exactly what, but with the fixed gear it was designed to use tires as small as 24 real inches in diameter -- 559 X 23 mm -- and Grant was careful to ask me about the narrowest tires I planned to use.

Regarding previous threads on the rack -- it's this one: https://www.rivbike.com/products/nitto-marks-rack-m1-20108:

I didn't read the thread or threads so sorry for the repeat; but then again, we'd lose list continuity were there not so many thread repeats. (I read about 50% of the Boblist and of the RBW list and perhaps 17.379% of the CR list -- seriously, about 25%.)

David P: agree: install a front brake! All my fixed gears have a front brake (and some even have a rear).

With my lowish bb Riv fixie custom, back when I rode 22 mm actual 559 Michelin Pro Races (currently plump 27 mm RH Elk Passes, wish they were 30 mm, labeled 32 mm) I'd very occasionally hit a pedal in turns, but as I generally am not a demon corner-er, it was never a real problem.

Idiots overloading racks: One reason Chauncey Matthews stopped building bikes was an instance where a rack he built for a custom frame cracked -- which he had to replace -- when the rider was (said Chauncey) carrying a hugely heavy toolkit on it while riding off road; my recollection of the conversation. More about idiots: 2000 Prez election, Florida, when "hanging chads" caused miscounts. The CEO of the voting machine on primetime news was asked about making a more idiot-proof system. He replied: "Oh, we can make a more idiot-proof system, but then they'd only invent bigger idiots."

[Bill Lindsay]

"With my lowish bb Riv fixie custom, back when I rode 22 mm actual 559 Michelin Pro Races (currently plump 27 mm RH Elk Passes, wish they were 30 mm, labeled 32 mm) I'd very occasionally hit a pedal in turns, but as I generally am not a demon corner-er, it was never a real problem."

It's true that somebody who takes corners exceptionally slowly may not care about BB drop.  What are the reasons why you think any individual cyclist should or would prefer riding fixed on a RoadUno over riding a single speed with a freewheel?  I've got like 7 or 8 reasons why I would never set up my new RoadUno as a fixie*.  Do you have any reasons why I would or should set up my new RoadUno as a fixie?  

*In fact, I'm so convinced in my thinking, that my mind is made up that the RoadUno should have come with vertical dropouts.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Joe Bernard]

I think the tether is a good idea. Sure, if you're super careful and never overload the rack and always tighten the bolts you should be fine. But it's still a rack falling on a front wheel and over you go. I'll take the extra safety precaution. 

Joe Bernard 

Clearlake CA 

[Ray Varella]

Bill,

If the Roaduno had been made with vertical dropouts then anyone wanting to run it as a single speed would need to run a chain tensioner or use an eccentric hub. 

At that point I think a lot of people would just try running a single gear on an existing bike. 

The simplicity of not needing a dummy derailer or chain tensioner is a plus in my humble opinion 

Ray

[Patrick Moore]

I think about only 1 cyclist when I insist that he ride a Rivendell fixed instead of single speed, and that 1 is me; or rather, I. That 1 is I, if you see what I (1) mean.

I don't care if someone rides a Roaduno fixed or free or multispeed; my question bears on facts and not morals. But if I got one, I'd certainly set it up fixed, or perhaps fixed/free.

Wouldn't verticals make the frame less apt for its apparent intended use as the single speed signified by the name?

On Tue, Sep 10, 2024 at 11:14 PM Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

... What are the reasons why you think any individual cyclist should or would prefer riding fixed on a RoadUno over riding a single speed with a freewheel?  I've got like 7 or 8 reasons why I would never set up my new RoadUno as a fixie*.  Do you have any reasons why I would or should set up my new RoadUno as a fixie?  

[tio ryan]

The main reason I bought a Roaduno was the track ends  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm loving it as a singlespeed (especially after adjusting the gear ratio). I was pleased to see bikesnob defend the caliper brakes; this is another feature I like about this bike that others seemingly weren't too keen on.

-tio "you only need one" ryan 

[Edwin W]

Bill,

I have set my Roaduno up as a fixie for a couple of reasons, but only one may apply to you: to experience a bike in a very simple form! Pedal forward, your bike moves forward, pedal backward, your bike moves backward, resist the forward movement of your pedals, the bike slows. 

I can't say it is the "best" or the absolutely most simple, or the most elegant way to set up a bike, but it is all of those things. When you have a stable as grand and nuanced as yours, I think one fixed gear would fit quite nicely. Maybe you need to get another Crust lightning bolt SS frame for that!

Here are a few pictures as I build it, improve it, complicate it, and move it closer to look like my appaloosa: 

https://flickr.com/photos/90785999@N06/albums/72177720319888300

Edwin

[Bill Lindsay]

Edwin

I do own a fixie, and it is a Crust.  It's the original offering Crust Florida Man.  It lives in my office in Michigan, and it's right at home there in Western Wayne County.  A fixie would be a disaster for me in the SF East Bay.  

BL in EC

[Bill Lindsay]

"Wouldn't verticals make the frame less apt for its apparent intended use as the single speed signified by the name?"

This is fascinating.  An individual implicitly shows an utter disregard for bicycles' apparent intended use by serially converting all possible platforms to fixies.  That individual doubles-down on that disregard by brainstorming a way to build a Clem as a fixie.  That same individual then makes a post explicitly stating that the only opinion about anything that matters is their own opinion.  And then, with extreme earnestness, argues that the NAME of a bicycle model pigeonholes the intended use for that bicycle.  

Can you please list the other bicycle models in the history of Earth that encode their specific intent in their name?  If that list is empty, then why is this the one bike in the history of Earth that is defined by your interpretation of its name?

It has custom proprietary track ends that have a dedicated hanger for a tensioner.  I call that the intent that the build include a tensioner.  I am pretty sure it is the only production bike on earth with a dedicated single-purpose tensioner hanger.  

It is the only current production bike on earth (I'm pretty sure) with a solo left-side down tube shifter boss.  I call that the intent that the build include a left side shifter.

The complete comes with a triple crank set with two chain rings.  I call that the intent that the build include two or three chain rings.  

The complete comes with a single freewheel (1, one, Uno). 

Grant's build is not a single speed.  Grant celebrates and encourages using a cool old freebie derailleur as your tensioner.  I call that the intent to run it as an Nx1, NxOne, NxUno.  

I think the primary intent of the RoadUno is a 2x1, and I think that is a genius format.  If I had to impart meaning on the name RoadUno, I guess I would say it's in reference to the single freewheel in back and the 120mm O.L.D.  I also think they had the name and the artwork and the headbadge before the bike design was finished in its evolution.  That's why I call my RoadUno a RoDeuxNo.  Maybe I'll make decal mods on mine.  

I think people who want a fixie with a Rivendell head badge on it can absolutely get that by building their RoadUno as a fixie.  If that's what they decide to do, I hope they love it.   I think people who want a single speed A Homer Hilsen can absolutely get that by building up their RoadUno as a single speed.  If that's what they do, I hope they love it.  I think the clear PRIMARY intent of the RoadUno is a 2x1, and if Riv had gone ALL-IN on that primary intent, they would have gone with vertical dropouts.  I like the track ends.  I like how they look, and I like that they are proprietary.  I like that they look like a monster.  I like the rack eyelet they present.  I have a rear-hub workaround that will achieve the wheel removal ease of vertical dropouts, and will also enable a perfect fender treatment, which is the other benefit of vertical dropouts.  I think the track ends earn an ALTERNATIVE build option for those who don't want to go with the primary intent of the bike.  I get it that some people hate the look of a tensioner, or just dislike the existence of a tensioner.  I'm sure somebody is going to take their dremel tool to the hanger on their RoadUno, which they have every right to do.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Edwin W]

Hahaha, I love this conversation.

I agree with Bill Lindsay on almost anything he writes except for his argument that the primary use of a bike named the Roaduno is as a two speed!

What I think happened is that Grant designed a single speed, named it a Roaduno, and then thought, wait, what other cool/not usual ways can I set this up that captures my style and desire for a bike. that is his way to ride the bike and he popped a derailer hanger and a shifter boss on there to make that easy.

But only Grant could settle this debate that I am sure will take over the internet, wink wink.

Edwin

[Bill Lindsay]

I said:  "I also think they had the name and the artwork and the headbadge before the bike design was finished in its evolution"

then Edwin said: "I think happened is that Grant designed a single speed, named it a Roaduno, and then thought, wait, what other cool/not usual ways can I set this up that captures my style and desire for a bike"

Sounds like we agree.  

BL in EC

[Marty Gierke, Stewartstown PA]

Regarding the name/badge, I think this version was debated at Riv HQ for a few minutes:

[Eric Daume]

The dropouts might be proprietary, but they're functionally identical to those on a 2003 Surly Karate Monkey... though I doubt Riv's have the Surly name cast in.

Eric

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[Bill Lindsay]

Eric

That's interesting.  I think you mean that as kind of a burn, because I'm pretty sure you disapprove of the RoadUno, which you are allowed to do. A few questions though:  Do you have any guess about what fraction of people set up their 2003 Surly Karate Monkeys as single speeds?  Do you think the 2003 Surly Karate Monkey was regarded as a single speed that incidentally had a hanger?  Or do you think it was regarded as a mountain bike, with a single speed option?

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Eric Daume]

I don’t disapprove of the Roaduno, just its brakes. 

I had a later 2009 KM, and ran it both geared and single speed. And from what I’ve seen on Surly forums, that was very typical. It was a bike made to be tinkered with, like most Surlys of that era. 

What really confounds me about the Roaduno’s dropout is why Riv didn’t angle it, like on the QB. That was a smart design that allows for easier manual gear changes on a single speed.  I think people who do this are ever more rare than people who ran their KMs both geared and single speed, but it’s an appealing idea for me. 

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[Ray Varella]

Eric,

I can only guess why the horizontal ends weren’t angled but my guess is the gear changes are intended to be at the crank, hence the shifter boss and derailer hanger. 

I don’t know if brake position allows for the difference a 2 speed freewheel offers or not. 

Ray

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[Mackenzy Albright]

I absolutely fell in love with the early Karate Monkey. I have owned several set up as fixed gears. I had purchased one with gears on it - and it was absolutely the most annoying setup between the discs and derailer and eventually stripped it down. I appreciated the idea though. I much preferred my salsa el-mariachi with the bushnell eccentric bottom bracket for versatilities sake. (Gears never stayed on my mountain bikes long.) It was great because you could position the bb higher setting it up fixed for reducing pedal strike... 

For a modern fixed gear specific I'd just get a Crust Lightning bolt SS or Florida Man. 

BUT - I think the roaduno is super neat as it reminds me a lot of the RSF bikes with stallard dropouts. I think an internal real hub like a sturmey-archer 3 speed with a compact double crank and paul tensioner would be an incredible build. I bought everything to build up a holdsworthy but the toe overlap with fenders killed my motivation for the project. Price aside the roaduno is the perfect candidate for some fun builds.  

[Bill Lindsay]

"I think an internal real hub like a sturmey-archer 3 speed with a compact double crank and paul tensioner would be an incredible build"

That definitely would be a cool build.  

BL in EC

[nlerner]

On Thursday, September 12, 2024 at 5:31:28 PM UTC-4 Bill Lindsay wrote:

"I think an internal real hub like a sturmey-archer 3 speed with a compact double crank and paul tensioner would be an incredible build"

That definitely would be a cool build.  

BL in EC

Hmm, I have a couple of S-A hubs built into 700c wheels and might have to try that experiment on my RoadUno. Attached is a pic of a possible chain tensioner for that build.

Neal Lerner

Brookline MA

[Patrick Moore]

Yes to the IGH; far more elegant IMO than a FD and a chain tensioner not to mention the multiple chainrings. But the defect of IGHs is the choice of ratios, drag -- if you choose a wider-range, more-ratios hub the internal friction increases, and if you choose the lowest drag options (several tests have shown that the basic SA 3 speed hubs have no more drag, or even a wee bit less drag, overall, than derailleur systems), you are limited to the more basic 2 and 3 speed hubs which have very limited range.

But if you can get by with limited ratios, they're worth considering. I've built very usable all-rounder beaters with the venerable, durable, and in fact ineradicable AW, and the nice thing is that the these are very available, very cheap -- old units are about $50 on eBay and older ones, even the 114 mm OL ones, will work fine with 120 mm frames. I've set mine up with 3d/high/overdrive for pavement cruising with about a 72" gear, 2nd/direct at about 54", and 1st/low/underdrive at about 41".

Couple the AW with a double ring and you can split the gaps in the AW for a very usable 6-speed -- my second complete bike build circa 1971 had a "half stepped" AW, tho' I used 2 cogs instead of 2 rings.

But even more exotic SA IGH are available on eBay; the wonderful AM medium ratio hub comes up from time to time at reasonable prices (I got mine for well under $200 each -- $150? -- IIRC in runnable condition) and again the 114 mm OL will fit 120 mm frames with only strategic anti-rotation washer selection and placement. And, it uses the ubiquitous AW trigger shifter. Direct, 15.5% overdrive, 0.8654% underdrive; mine are geared75/65/56". And the AM is reputed to be, like the AW, one of SA's most durable hubs.

And even the pure gold ASC close ratio fixed 3 speed. I got my 2 very cheaply, $200 NOS and $150 used but VG. But these are much rarer; I was lucky.

On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 1:19 PM Mackenzy Albright <mackenzy...@gmail.com> wrote:

... I think an internal real hub like a sturmey-archer 3 speed with a compact double crank and paul tensioner would be an incredible build.... Price aside the roaduno is the perfect candidate for some fun builds.  

[Brian Forsee]

I'd agree with the above sentiments that the name was settled on before the final iteration of the bike. If the bike was named after the final design was complete, I think  'RoaDuo' would be fitting

Brian

[Joe Bernard]

To be fair every road bike is a Roaduno. You pedal one gear at a time! 

[Bill Lindsay]

"elegant IMO"

Elegance certainly is in the eye of the beholder.  Even if you think your derailleur-equipped bike(s) are inelegant, I think they are equivalently elegant to your IGH bike(s).  I think they are all valid and equivalently elegant ways to realize a build.  

Pushing it to the limit of Opinion, in the IMO department, I'm becoming convinced that chains are primarily good for being derailed.  Shiftability is the core attribute of contemporary chains.  For me, if you've got a drive train with no derailleurs, the preferable setup, in the IMO elegance department is a BELT.  A belt is a purpose built optimized object for a no-derailleur setup.  So, for optimal elegance (IMO), an IGH build should be a belt build.  IMO.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Ray Varella]

Belts would likely be well received if more bikes were built to accommodate them. 

A belt with an IGH be extremely practical for people who don’t maintain their bikes. 

Children’s bikes, commuter bikes and occasional use bikes that get stored outside would benefit. 

MHO

Ray

[ian m]

Belt drive is extremely practical for people who don't care for drivetrain maintenance. I maintain all my (and wife's) bikes and am overjoyed with the IGH and belt drive on my Omnium cargo.

Not to mention the beautiful silence that accompanies riding with it.

[Bill Lindsay]

We were expressing our opinions of elegance.  I think there's significant appeal across the board when there is a bike part X that replaces bike part Y and does the same job with a lot less required maintenance.  The example most of us have experienced is the sealed BB unit.  Introduced in the 1990s, a nice sealed BB unit is cheap, simple to install and basically maintenance free until the bearings need replacement.  One could spin things and say "sealed BB's are practical for people who don't maintain their bikes", but their appeal is a lot broader than that.  People who just like "annual BB overhaul" taken off their list of things to maintain also feel a benefit.  I would venture the guess that virtually every iBob has used a sealed BB of some kind and likes it.  I would venture very few iBob's seek out ball and cup BB's for every bike in their stable.  In my opinion, premier ball and cup BB's are awesome, but I don't mind there being a cheap and low maintenance alternative.  I maintain my bikes, but I don't mind being relieved of some of the maintenance tasks.  

Similar to a sealed BB, I think a belt does the same job as a chain on single-ring single-cog builds.  Like a sealed BB, a belt basically requires no maintenance.  So if you prefer to maintain your bike over doing anything else in life, like riding your bike, or reading a book, or posting on iBob, then the loss of that job on your list may be a loss.  For everybody else, less maintenance is a win.  Add to that silent operation, and it's far cleaner, and the belts last 10,000 miles or more, and the cogs and rings last even longer than that.  Add to that the wattage PENALTY of a belt is ~1Watt at LOW power levels.  That PENALTY goes to zero and becomes a power BENEFIT over a chain at ~200W of power.  

The list of features of a belt were what prompted me to respond to Patrick Moore's expressed opinion of elegance.  

So what do you think?  Do you think an IGH with a belt is more elegant than an IGH with a chain?  Do you agree with Patrick Moore that any IGH bike is "far more elegant" than any derailleur equipped bike?  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Eric White]

The silence is very nice, most of the time, but when I ride my commuter with IGH and belt in the rain, I get a bit of wet belt squeak. It's not intolerable, but it's not silent either.

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[nlerner]

Well, I must have missed the shared definition of what “elegant” means. Seems the implication is that elegant is equivalent to simple or paired down, e.g., devoid of the complications of derailleurs and gear clusters or simple to maintain and service in Bill’s examples of cartridge BBs and belt drive. Elegant, to me, is more an aesthetic quality than a mechanical one, but that’s just me.

Neal Lerner

Brookline MA

[Bill Lindsay]

Neal

Nobody gave a shared definition for elegant.  It's just opinions being shared.  Patrick Moore just shared the opinion that IGH bikes are far more elegant than derailleur bikes.  I responded that in my opinion, IGH bikes and derailleur bikes are equivalently elegant but an IGH bike is "max elegant" with a belt.  

It sounds like you agree that there are -OR- can be elegant IGH bikes and elegant derailleur bikes, because for you it's an aesthetic quality.  

BL in EC

[nlerner]

That seems an accurate summary to me, Bill, but this medium always puzzles me by its sharing of opinions without agreeing on terminology. You might guess I’m a pointy headed academic, which would be correct.

Neal Lerner

Brookline MA

[nlerner]

I’ll also add that I have IGH bikes, I have single speeds, I have multiple-geared bikes using derailleur shifting (both index and friction), but I really don’t see any as “elegant” or some more elegant than others. Maybe compared to automobiles, they are, but that’s not the definition implied here.

Neal Lerner

Brookline MA