Black cyclists

[Patrick Moore]

I anticipate that some people may find this controversial, but I'll bet they aren't black. I have no compunctions about my interest in black cyclists and in black African culture generally, so hoping the interest will outweigh the sensitivity:

Black people seem to be relatively few in cycling; I say "seem" -- the reality may be different.

At any rate, this is an interesting article: 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/nyregion/black-cyclists-red-caps-brooklyn.html

I sometimes come across news of cycling in Kenya and other parts of Africa; I recall a feature about the history of cycling in -- was it Rwanda or was it Burundi? But a history going back decades and continuing despite the vicissitudes of war and politics. 

There's a off-and-on-and-mostly-off blog, She Cycles Nairobi, that has some interesting bits. 

Patrick Moore, who cut his cycling teeth on the hilly roads around Nairobi in the '60s and '70s.

... Not to mention Peter Tosh and his unicycle (and the best ever version of Johnny B Goode) ...

--

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Tomorrow we may come this way
And take the hidden paths that run
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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique

[Fullylugged]

in 2015, the Montgomery Bike Club organized a 50th anniv ride for the 1965 Voting Rights March. I learned due to attendance from all over, that there are large African-american cycling groups in Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Los Angeles, Chicago and other places. I also saw that riding bikes can bridge barriers.  Friends you make while riding together can remain friends off the bike.  That experience led me to work for greater diversity in our local club. I think it is working. A photo from yesterday's C group is attached. We are now a Major Taylor affiliate.

Btw, we will hold the 55th anniv ride from Selma to Montgomery in Feb 2020.  Come on and bring a Riv.

Bruce

[Ian A]

The Eritrean capital Asmara was written about in the Globe and Mail recently for its commitment to cycling.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-the-bicycle-horn-of-africa-how-cycling-became-a-part-of-eritreas/

[eddietheflay]

Black people are just people. Why call them out based on the color of their skin? We don't do that for stupid people, but maybe we should. I do find this topic disgusting. Just to let ya know.

[Timothy Hurley]

I don’t think anyone is calling anyone out. People need to be able to talk about race. As long as it’s done in a self aware and thoughtful way, I think it’s a positive thing. Saying race doesn’t matter is, generally speaking, a viewpoint that’s easily held when you are a member of the dominant racial group. Also, I’m not calling you out or trying to start an argument or anything; I’m sure you’re coming from a good place just like the other posters.

Cheers,
T.J.

[eddietheflay]

it's complicated, i admit:

here are two points of view:

https://medium.com/@journojoshua/we-should-stop-saying-people-of-color-when-we-mean-black-people-29c2b18e6267

https://www.afro.com/commentary-black-or-african-american/

On Sunday, June 9, 2019 at 9:05:00 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Drw]

I agree. Nobody is calling anyone out. I think Patrick’s post is probably purposefully without too much description of intent, because it’s hard to not step in something controversial. Though I admit I don’t quite see the point he’s making or asking, my belief is that it comes from a genuine and inclusive place.

My take is that cycling is largely white for the same reasons that lacrosse or polo or eating brunch is largely white- privilege (and systemic purposeful and accidental exclusion). Acknowledging it seems like step 1A in a series of many many steps.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 6/9/19 9:31 PM, Drw wrote:
> I agree. Nobody is calling anyone out. I think Patrick’s post is probably purposefully without too much description of intent, because it’s hard to not step in something controversial. Though I admit I don’t quite see the point he’s making or asking, my belief is that it comes from a genuine and inclusive place.
>
> My take is that cycling is largely white for the same reasons that lacrosse or polo or eating brunch is largely white- privilege (and systemic purposeful and accidental exclusion). Acknowledging it seems like step 1A in a series of many many steps.
>

It's unwise to overgeneralize.  While it's true that the big
recreational cycling club in the Metro DC area, Potomac Pedalers,
doesn't seem to have many black members, we have a goodly number of
black cyclists in Oxon Hill, the bike club I ride with; and there are a
couple of large mostly-black cycling groups in Southern Maryland.   One
started life as a meet-up group, currently has something like a thousand
followers online and regularly puts on ride with 50-100 or more people
participating. Black Ski does bike rides in the (skiing) off-season, and
there are a couple of good sized mostly-black racing groups in the area
too that I see mainly when they attend Oxon Hill's spring Metric century
and annual September century.

--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

[Drw]

Also not to pick a fight or anything but citing anecdotal evidence (albeit cool and good and positive and I’m happy all that’s happening evidence) as proof that there isn’t a cultural, hierarchical, documented problem is overgeneralization.

[Steve Palincsar]

If you're referring to my observations about the cycling scene in metro DC / Southern Maryland, first let's not be so quick to dismiss as "anecdotal".  It's unnecessary and doesn't help.  There's been no statistical or experimental evidence provided in this discussion and my observations of the large numbers of black cyclists at the Indian Head 100 and the Rural Legacy aren't "anecdotal." 

Nor are they "proof that there isn't a cultural, hierarchical, documented problem."  What they are is proof that things vary by geographic location (note, I did say Southern Maryland, which is culturally, geographically and demographically different from other parts of the metro DC area); evidence that in this area there are largely-black cycling clubs and for whatever reason -- and we can speculate on those reasons to our hearts' content -- that black cyclists may prefer to ride with such largely-black clubs; and that in at least one case there is a bicycle club that isn't predominantly black where black cyclists do feel welcome and have long held leadership positions.  I think there are many explanations for that including geography and the effect of individual members and personalities: it's a small enough group with a small-group culture so that the actions of individuals can have a noticeable effect.

On 6/9/19 11:01 PM, Drw wrote:

Also not to pick a fight or anything but citing anecdotal evidence (albeit cool and good and positive and I’m happy all that’s happening evidence) as proof that there isn’t a cultural, hierarchical, documented problem is overgeneralization.  

[Patrick Moore]

I'm mixed race and grew up in Asia and Africa. I live in a multiracial state and married a woman from another race, My beautiful daughter is Chinese Filipina  English Scotts Irish with a black stepfather,

I find the different races, and cultures fascinating, and I confess to having no scruples about my interest. I find the fear of racial differences foolish and a sign of weakness, and believe it leads to unfriendliness with people of other races.

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[Patrick Moore]

Eddie: I posted my last post in some anger. I don't think it was entirely unjustified, but besides justification there is also manners. I don't want the topic to become *excessively* uncomfortable; though often a bit of discomfort is good for each of us. That is certainly true of me. 

All: As I said, I have a great interest in cultural and racial differences and in the interplay between the different cultures and races. But I don't want to single out blacks only; the article simply caught my attention and, thinking of Grant's recent post, I posted the link and the thoughts. I was also for a couple of recent years a (probably odd) member of a pan-Indian cycling group (I lived and cycled in India as a boy). But as above, in addition to one's lawful interest, there is also the matter of manners -- one doesn't make one's interlocutors uncomfortable when there is no need to do so (there are times when other factors take precedence, but this isn't one of them). 

So I am happy to drop the subject if others find it awkward.

[Dave Small]

These kinds of discussions confuse race with culture.  The purported paucity of black cyclists is a cultural phenomenon, not a racial phenomenon.  Race is genetic and affects physical characteristics, culture is learned.  We're not born cyclists, we have to learn it.  

So there aren't many black cyclists---so what?  It's not their thing.  They have other things.  Their things aren't my things, and they're not trying to get me involved in their things because they're their things and they don't care that they're not my things, too.  Sociology PhD's working for universities can get grant money to study these kinds of disparities and publish the results and we can all read 'em with interest, but it doesn't change the fact that different cultures gravitate to different things, and there's nothing wrong with it.  It's just the way it is, and it's interesting to know it and acknowledge it, but there's no need to "fix" it.  I know this bothers Grant (there's my Riv content!), and he can have his issue with it but I don't share his concern.  I'm not offended by his concern over it and I don't think any less of him for it.  

When I lived in California in the 90's I learned that 90% of the donut shops in that state were owned by Cambodians.  Almost all of the women working in manicure shops are from Vietnam.  Most NBA and NFL players are black, but few hockey players, race car drivers, or professional golfers are.  In the absence of limits, a large fraction of the students at top-tier US universities are Asian.  These concentrations are way out of whack with the groups' representation in the general population.  Why is it like that?  'Cause it is, that's why, and it's fine.  Nobody's being shut out, except maybe the non-Asians who can't get into the supposed "elite" universities 'cause too many slots are taken up by the Asians, but the Asians get those slots because they've earned them through hard work, which is a cultural advantage they have over whites and blacks and Hispanics.  

Really, there's much ado about nothing here.  Like Patrick, I've been kinda fascinated by the concentration of certain races and nationalities in certain professions ever since I learned about those California Cambodians---but as an observer, not as someone who thinks it's evidence of something we need to fix.   

Finally, there's nothing wrong or offensive about Patrick's post.  What flows to the keyboard starts in the mind, and Patrick doesn't think in a way that would let him post something offensive.  So....chill.  No need for anyone to get their panties in a twist over this.  

Dave

Boston/Indy

[eddietheflay]

Hello Patrick,

No harm, no foul. Of course I can be and am open to the conversation. It struck me as putting microscope on something that for me seemed to separate rather than bring together. Not you doing that necessarily but the article focused on the club's blackness.

I prefer the lens to use being this simple sentence from the article:

“We were just a bunch of guys who knew one another and we started riding,”

On Sunday, June 9, 2019 at 9:05:00 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Daniel D.]

Sums up my thoughts on this kind of topic in a much more articulate manner. I might have to steal it : pick.

[Mark in Beacon]

Dave Small wrote:

"The purported paucity of black cyclists is a cultural phenomenon, not a racial phenomenon....So there aren't many black cyclists---so what?  It's not their thing.  They have other things.  Their things aren't my things, and they're not trying to get me involved in their things because they're their things and they don't care that they're not my things, too....  It's just the way it is..."

So your stance is, black people as a group just don't like riding bikes, because, "black culture". Maybe. But you have to take into account the fact that "cultures" overlap, interact, and affect one another when they exist in the same country--a country that for a portion of its history allowed members of one race to own members of another race. The first iteration of the League of American Wheelmen banned non-white cyclists in 1894, in part due to the success of Major Taylor. 

"Most NBA and NFL players are black, but few hockey players, race car drivers, or professional golfers are...."

Again, your supposition is this is because blacks in general just don't care much for hockey, car racing, or golf.  However, basketball and football are public school sports, and can also be played with a minimum of equipment outside of institutional settings. Hockey and golf are historically more the purview of prep schools. The economic opportunities that blacks have often been excluded from mean they are not as well-represented at these private institutions. Race car driving has a strong Southern background, which may or may not mean something. I bet you could look into it. Golf has an interesting "cultural" past that may have influenced black culture in the U.S.:

https://www.complex.com/sports/2011/06/the-most-racist-moments-in-golf-history/kelly-tilghman

Still seems to be happening in places:

https://www.golf.com/tour-news/2018/04/26/fallout-continues-alleged-discriminatory-golf-course-incident

Really, there's much ado about nothing here. ..

Well, I would not speak for others as to whether or not this is true. Perhaps you are right. I think discussions about race are a good thing. But probably more useful when everyone is at the table.

[Steve Palincsar]

And my observation that at least in Southern Maryland, there are plenty of black cyclists, but that in general they're most often found in groups that are largely made up of other black cyclists, that's to be dismissed as "anecdotal" and it's just chopped liver, right?

--

[Jeremy Till]

I'm also interested in a discussion of race in cycling, but I don't have the time at the moment to lay out my thoughts in an effective manner, so I'll just post some links that might be helpful: 

http://www.aquickbrownfox.com/ 

The website of Ayesha McGowan, a black woman who is a pro road racer.  

Justin Williams, the current US National Champion, is a black cyclist, and races for Legion of Los Angeles, a team promoting inclusion and diversity in cycling: 

https://www.instagram.com/juswilliamz/?hl=en

https://www.instagram.com/l39ion.la/?hl=en

https://microcosmpublishing.com/catalog/books/7833

http://www.urbanadonia.com/p/about_22.html

Adonia Lugo, Ph.D. is a cultural anthropologist who wrote Bicycle/Race, a book about cycling and culture in Los Angeles. She's a friend of a friend and I've seen her speak.  

On Sunday, June 9, 2019 at 9:05:00 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Mark in Beacon]

I thought it was clear since I quoted the text that I was responding to one particular post on the thread. I was just pointing out that "black culture" in the US was formed partly in response to the culture and other circumstances around it.

When I lived in NYC, I was involved in several cycling subcultures and knew a number of black cyclists. I don't think their numbers were in any kind of ratio to the general population, with the possible exception of bike Messengers. That's my interpretation of my observations. I've ridden with only a couple of black cyclist since moving to the Hudson Valley. I couldn't really comment on the scene in Maryland, which is why I didn't. (Isn't chopped liver basically pate? Yum.)

[Dave Small]

Hi Mark,

My stance is that differences attributed to race are often differences in culture.  That's it.  They're cultural differences, not racial differences.  You peeled a couple of layers away from that to tease out some specific factors that might create cultural differences, and I don't disagree with them.  Your points about football and basketball versus golf et al. are good ones and are probably valid, but my point wasn't to dissect the reasons for differences, only to point out that they exist and that people confuse them.  

Interesting, by the way, that you mentioned Major Taylor given his environment growing up.  A lone example doesn't prove anything, but it's consistent with my premise.    

By the way, I didn't say black people don't like riding bikes, but I think you already know that.  

Dave

Boston/Indy

[Mark in Beacon]

Well Dave, I thought you added a bit more than, cultural differences,and people confuse them,  that's it. You went on to add that they have their thing and you have yours and what's the big deal--"different cultures gravitate to different things, and there's nothing wrong with it.  It's just the way it is." 

It comes off as though, hey, everyone had an equal chance at this smorgasbord of different activities, and blacks gravitated to x, y, and z, not a, b, or c, because of black culture. Cool, no problem, just the way it is.

Except not exactly, right. Some activities were "easier" to break the racial barrier in, some, not so "easy." To my ears your statement is cavalier. To say that I "peeled layers to tease out some specific factors" is a bit disingenuous, making it sound like semantic contortions were necessary to make some fairly obvious points. Any meaningful discussions of race are going to mostly encompass "culture," not genetic differences between races.

No, you did not say black people don't like riding bikes. You said "So there aren't many black cyclists---so what?  It's not their thing.  They have other things."

You mentioned Grant's "issue" with this, but said you don't share his concern. Grant is a public person who runs a company that presents a certain image to the world. So he is in a different position. He is also someone who tries to incorporate his beliefs into his business. It's a tricky thing to try to tackle the issues around race in this regard, perhaps most so when you happen to be a white guy, and it may be ill-advised and he has certainly drawn flack for his ruminations on catalog shots and reparations.

But it's one of the ways to start some dialog, despite possible false starts or receiving ire. When I was publishing my cycling magazine in the 1990s, I thought about this a bit.  I had some variety on my cover and in my content that skewed in favor of under-represented cyclists--i.e, anyone who was not a youngish white guy**.  I never kept score, it happened mostly organically as good stories presented themselves, but looking back, the count ended up 4 white guys (two of the same guy, local legend Mike McCarthy) 5 white females, 4 black guys (including Messenger 29, a comic character) 1 black girl (M29s daughter, Kyla, also a comic character), a white male-female couple, 2 Hispanic guys (on one cover) and possibly 1 transgender person (which I was clueless about until someone told me later) and one crowd melting pot shot from the 5 Boro Tour.

**(For the record, I don't have angst or guilt over being a white guy, and the little I've heard about reparations doesn't sound like a good idea or very feasible on a number of fronts)

Some photos of the covers and a few inside pages here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/YKsMN2sx6wgPPvjJ6

On Wednesday, June 12, 2019 at 9:24:23 PM UTC-4, Dave Small wrote:

Hi Mark,

My stance is that differences attributed to race are often differences in culture.  That's it.  They're cultural differences, not racial differences.  You peeled a couple of layers away from that to tease out some specific factors that might create cultural differences, and I don't disagree with them.  Your points about football and basketball versus golf et al. are good ones and are probably valid, but my point wasn't to dissect the reasons for differences, only to point out that they exist and that people confuse them.  

No

[Wilson Wilson]

I made a long winded response which deleted verses posted. Here is the short version. I have found this amusing to read. Historically, when there are people who are viewed as " in need" those making issue are White. The mindset comes from the years of good and bad experience. There is a study which I am going to paraphrase as " we do not need your help". What it points out is the lack of exposure to a number of USA norms unequally distributed due to not just specifically race, but statistics.

To Steve, who keeps raving on about the cyclist of the DMV, those cyclist are mentally stuck in the Lance Armstrong age of cycling. That every moment on the bike is competition mindset. Their volumes at events in the surrounding area is about rewards, not just getting out to ride. My opinion, yeah sure- try sitting in on one of their group rides. I log hours of miles annually. I have invited those who head that group in SoMD to ride with me at distance, somewhere unfamiliar, during bad weather, or off road. They all run hide. Also, the exclusive "Afro centric" nature of cycling together is not appealing to me. I feel for the woman of color who find interest in cycling in the area. They can be seen riding with a similar ignorant confidence. What is the largest danger is the lack of education to the real bike and vehicular laws. The bike shop in Waldorf has gone leaps and bounds to treat anyone who walks in the door without pause for years. I gained respect for cycling thanks to the folks who worked there years ago. Now that place is its own thing. The other stores with the same name throughout the DMV are terrible to women and minorities. I have had long talks and emails with the supposed powers of the brand. I live on my bike traveling around the USA alone from highways to sliding around cliffs. I am an oddity in itself who travels without a laptop or cell phone, but uses paper maps and bad directions to get around. I am no ones marketing focus whether my skin is fair or not.

Interestingly, the latest Specialized video focusing on the lack diversity is thought to be cosidered timely. I think the truth is people who have been excluded from their sales have not forgotten the American business face historically. The cool trend I have seen is the bike shop near ethnic impacted areas have stopped selling low quality brands or brand models such as Mongoose, Jamis, Giant (I know), Trek Commuter line, Scott, Raleigh and similar. Many have switched to provide bikes like Salsa, Ridley, Ibis, KTM (yeah yeah, I know), Pinnenaro(sp), Cannondale higher models, Yeti, Fairdale (leaps nicer than Electra). No one I know would "buy" anything from Specialized, Surly, or Trek. There is no way I would buy a bike from REI Co-op brand knowing the real cost/quality value of those bikes.

This year I have plotted out to participate in cycling events versus showing up as a volunteer.... Which even then I am still the lone Black guy. Here are my personal experences thus far this year. Each event goes like this sort of. I show up early or on time on the bike I will ride in the event. Drop my gear. I try speaking to folks with a general greeting, which is normally not met with a respones. I wait for the start almost like everyone else. I sometimes make something to eat and offer. I am always eating. If I am lucky someone recognizes me from being elsewhere years or days ago riding. Then I have that ice breaker. After the event, people who have seen me participating have no doubt heard that I possibly had ridden three hundred plus miles just to ride sixty at the event. Then I at the least get a hello.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 6/12/19 2:35 PM, Wilson Wilson wrote:

I made a long winded response which deleted verses posted. Here is the short version. I have found this amusing to read. Historically, when there are people who are viewed as " in need" those making issue are White. The mindset comes from the years of good and bad experience. There is a study which I am going to paraphrase as " we do not need your help". What it points out is the lack of exposure to a number of USA norms unequally distributed due to not just specifically race, but statistics.   

To Steve, who keeps raving on about the cyclist of the DMV, those cyclist are mentally stuck in the Lance Armstrong age of cycling. That every moment on the bike is competition mindset.

That may well be true of GII and the racing clubs; it's definitely not true of Oxon Hill.  

But regardless of their motivations, my point was simply that they're there.  As opposed to those who say they're not there because they like some other sport better for cultural reasons.  I think it's worth exploring why it is that they're there when in other areas they're conspicuously absent.

 Their volumes at events in the surrounding area is about rewards, not just getting out to ride. My opinion, yeah sure- try sitting in on one of their group rides.

Definitely not my cup of tea; I suspect you'd be much happier on one of my rides, which are much more about scenery, companionship and interesting routes than they are about competition.   But, I don't expect that other riders need to share my view of what riding is about.  While those paceline-centric or Strava KOM mindsets are nothing I'm comfortable with, I know there are many people who live for that sort of thing.  We accommodate both views in Oxon HIll.  (And, in fact, there are several leading lights in Oxon Hill who also ride with GII, etc.) 

 I log hours of miles annually. I have invited those who head that group in SoMD to ride with me at distance, somewhere unfamiliar, during bad weather, or off road. They all run hide. 

There are plenty who see me as the big risk taker because I'm willing to lead a ride when there's as much as a 35% chance of rain.   And let's not even talk about the "dangers of riding on wet roads."  But there again, different tastes -- and that's not wrapped up in color, those are equal-opportunity fears, whether they're justified or not.  (Note, here I am speaking specifically about rain and wet roads, not other factors such as hostility of the people who live in the area towards women or people of color.)

Also, the exclusive "Afro centric" nature of cycling together is not appealing to me. 

I don't know those groups well enough to know whether it's actually "exclusive 'Afro centric'" or just "mostly."  Obviously, Black Ski's name speaks for itself, but I'm pretty sure GII has a mix of riders based on my fleeting recollections.  However, on centuries my attention is for obvious reasons focused elsewhere rather than taking note of the demographics of the groups that pass me.

I feel for the woman of color who find interest in cycling in the area. They can be seen riding with a similar ignorant confidence. What is the largest danger is the lack of education to the real bike and vehicular laws. The bike shop in Waldorf has gone leaps and bounds to treat anyone who walks in the door without pause for years. I gained respect for cycling thanks to the folks who worked there years ago. Now that place is its own thing.

I agree, their success is well deserved.   Everyone who shops at a bike shop deserves respect, and it's no surprise that treating customers with respect generates loyalty.

I do have to take issue with your broad characterization of cycling women of color: those I know personally are anything but ignorant. 

[Daniel D.]

sounds like the average organized cycling event solo experience...

[Dave Small]

Hi Mark,

 

I have no clue where you’re going with this, or what your point is, or what your agenda is—because you obviously have one—but have fun with it.  If you’re trying to get my ire up or goad me into some kind of pseudo-intellectual debate on whatever it is you're talking about, then you’ve failed.

Dave

Boston/Indy

[Joe Bernard]

Dave, your assertion that "nobody is being shut out" is ridiculous. The implication is that society is all cool for everybody, and we all as cultures just happen to choose different things. That's something a white person would think, and literally no one else.

[Joe Bernard]

I would say what I said. The implication that all races have equal opportunity to do whatever they want, and there's no societal barriers that make certain people feel shut out of certain activities, is ridiculous. You don't see a prevalence of African-Americans involved in cycling because it's a not a welcoming environment for them.

[Mark in Beacon]

Foiled again! Drats.

[Daniel D.]

I'm a geeky chinese guy, started cycling early nineties when I was really out of shape.  Heard about mtb's, bought a bike and started pedaling.  People of color are "being shut out"?  Interested in biking? Buy a bike and start pedaling.  Nothing is preventing anyone from doing that.