Clem H curious

[Ryan Frahm]

I just finished my Susie build (first Riv) and I have never ridden a bike like it. It brings comfort and riding enjoyment to an all time high for me! I do however find it to be almost too nice! 

I was interested in waiting for a Clem L to come back in stock to use as my grocery getter/winter bike to keep fenders on and haul more stuff. I found a Clem H for sale that I’m interested in though so I was hoping for some opinions about the differences here! From what I can tell, the H just has a sleeper head tube angle and everything else seems to be about the same. Do they ride similar? The H is a better deal as far as parts go than a complete. I’m also almost certain the complete will get a decent price bump on the next run. The step thru is cool but not a huge deal for me. Thoughts? Thanks in advance!

[Joe Bernard]

It's basically the same, just a little stiffer. The L has a smidge of flex in the frame that shows up if you load a bunch of weight on it (some folks I've mentioned this to say they don't notice it, YRMV). Grab that H, it's a good frame! 

[Ryan Frahm]

Thank you for the offer, I’m looking at a 59. Just trying to decide if I can justify it as a companion to my Susie. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 3, 2022, at 10:52 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's basically the same, just a little stiffer. The L has a smidge of flex in the frame that shows up if you load a bunch of weight on it (some folks I've mentioned this to say they don't notice it, YRMV). Grab that H, it's a good frame! 

On Wednesday, August 3, 2022 at 9:02:34 AM UTC-7 fra...@gmail.com wrote:

I just finished my Susie build (first Riv) and I have never ridden a bike like it. It brings comfort and riding enjoyment to an all time high for me! I do however find it to be almost too nice! 

I was interested in waiting for a Clem L to come back in stock to use as my grocery getter/winter bike to keep fenders on and haul more stuff. I found a Clem H for sale that I’m interested in though so I was hoping for some opinions about the differences here! From what I can tell, the H just has a sleeper head tube angle and everything else seems to be about the same. Do they ride similar? The H is a better deal as far as parts go than a complete. I’m also almost certain the complete will get a decent price bump on the next run. The step thru is cool but not a huge deal for me. Thoughts? Thanks in advance!

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[Bill Lindsay]

" if I can justify it"

You are in the right place to get help on that.  HAHA!  

BL in EC

[Joe Bernard]

Offer? I don't have one for sale, I'm just saying they're good. 

As for it being a good companion to a Susie that depends on what you're looking to do. If you want racks and bags to go shopping and the Susie is set up as a mountain bike, well there ya go. Different bikes for different stuff! 

On Wednesday, August 3, 2022 at 11:45:00 AM UTC-7 fra...@gmail.com wrote:

[Ryan Frahm]

Sorry Joe, I was on my phone replying o a private message and for some reason my phone decided it went here instead! Thank you for the information on the frame!

[Ryan Frahm]

That much I do know Bill! Haha!

[Richard Rose]

I have an “L” and I do notice the flex when loaded - but only standing still or just “pushing off”. Once moving the flex disappears. Of course any frame bags you might have are useless on the “L”. So I sold mine & have invested in traditional racks & bags. It’s all been worth it though as the step through is my favorite feature of the many features I love about this bike. Not saying don’t get the “H”, but the “L” is just so nice.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 3, 2022, at 1:52 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's basically the same, just a little stiffer. The L has a smidge of flex in the frame that shows up if you load a bunch of weight on it (some folks I've mentioned this to say they don't notice it, YRMV). Grab that H, it's a good frame! 

On Wednesday, August 3, 2022 at 9:02:34 AM UTC-7 fra...@gmail.com wrote:

I just finished my Susie build (first Riv) and I have never ridden a bike like it. It brings comfort and riding enjoyment to an all time high for me! I do however find it to be almost too nice! 

I was interested in waiting for a Clem L to come back in stock to use as my grocery getter/winter bike to keep fenders on and haul more stuff. I found a Clem H for sale that I’m interested in though so I was hoping for some opinions about the differences here! From what I can tell, the H just has a sleeper head tube angle and everything else seems to be about the same. Do they ride similar? The H is a better deal as far as parts go than a complete. I’m also almost certain the complete will get a decent price bump on the next run. The step thru is cool but not a huge deal for me. Thoughts? Thanks in advance!

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[Ryan Frahm]

Thank you for the thoughts Richard, nice looking bike! I do like the idea of the step thru on these. Especially for loading it up while pulling my daughter in the trailer. I don’t have any trouble getting a leg over but sometimes it could be a benefit.

[iamkeith]

I answered a similar question in more detail a while ago in other threads, and can try to direct you to them when I have time at a real computer.  Short summary:  I got a Susie thinking it would be a replacement for my clem Clem H, assuming it would be similar with a few minor improvements.  In fact, I find them to be very different bikes, and regret getting rid of the Clem on a daily basis.  Most significant difference to me was bottom bracket height.  But, even if they rode more similar, you could set them up differently and justify both:  one as a fenderless  knobby tired  stripped-down trail bike; the other as a racked,  basketed and smooth-tired town bike.

Not a good place to ask for advice if you want FEWER bikes.

[Alex K]

I have a Clem L and a Clem H.  The L has 18 speeds (2X9) and the L has 11 (1X11).  The L was a stock build and cost me $1750 from Riv direct, though I later added an Atlas wheel set with Deore hubs.  The H cost me about $4000 all told, built up with nicer parts, dynolights, and the frame cost me a little extra as I had to source it from a shop in San Jose (Silva) which was holding on to the last unbuilt-up 52 H remaining in the world (that's my story and I'm sticking to it.)   My H is super zippy and, at times, I feel like it is pushing me up the gravel fire roads in the Marin Headlands.  The bike feels alive.  My L is reliable and, outfitted with a Pass and Stow 5-rail rack, can carry 50lb. loads from Costco with very little wobble.  I use it as my city commuter, and I enjoy every minute riding it, but it is definitely more Cadillac than Porsche.  Were I to switch out the parts and ride my L with my H setup, I might be singing a different song, but my experience is that the H is much zippier, and the L a bit more of a workhorse.  That's all I got.

Alex

[Ryan Frahm]

Interesting Keith! I definitely plan to use a Clem as my main commuter to haul groceries and my daughter around. I absolutely love my Susie but hate leaving it locked up outside when we are going in anywhere for more than a few minutes. Do you find the Susie BB too high? It is low to me coming from a Chumba Ursa. The Susie is like riding a wet noodle, in a good way without much of a load. I imagine the Clem would be quite a different bike. 

[Ryan Frahm]

Thank you for the comparison Alex! I’d love for the Clem to be fun for a bit faster riding but I wasn’t expecting it to be so your comments about the L vs H are nice to hear! Though the parts difference on them make a huge difference I’m sure. The H I’m looking at has some upgrades over stock. A nice wheelset being the most important to me. 

[Richard Rose]

In this comparison it would certainly be nice to know the weights of each bike & how much of that weight difference is in the wheels / tires. I cannot imagine much difference in the weight of the frames?

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On Aug 4, 2022, at 12:37 PM, Alex K <ack...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[maxcr]

Did you see this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/255655578437?hash=item3b86428b45:g:dJ4AAOSwqEli1Y2Q

[Ryan Frahm]

That’s the one I’m looking at!

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

My 52 Clem H serves me as both my trail bike AND my town bike. : ) It's super versatile, comfortable, and rides beautifully.

My wife has a 45 Clem L; I haven't ridden it for any substantial distance, so I really can't weigh in on it how it rides, but I do see the benefits of the step-through design.

Bob E

Cranford, NJ

[maxcr]

Hi Bob,

What's your gearing on that awesome Clem? Chainring / cassette combo?

Thanks

Max

[Jeremy Till]

I have a first-gen, 59cm Clem H, and my experience follow's Alex's. I have an Xtracycle Edgerunner that fills the Dutch-bike-upright, low step-thru, big-load-and-kid hauling niche for me, so my Clem is a unloaded, light and zippy MTB, with Jones Loop bars, WTB saddle, and 2x9 MTB drivetrain with no front derailleur. It feels fast and fun in this configuration, even with relatively heavy wheels built around 36 hole Cliffhanger rims (natch). The times that i've taken it on proper MTB trails I've been impressed by its climbing ability on steep technical sections, although between kid, COVID, and general lack of fitness, it's been quite some time since I've been able to do a "real" MTB ride. Still plenty of fun on the gravel levees and semi-legal riverside singletrack around here.  

I haven't ridden a Susie or Clem L and have only ridden a prototype Gus a couple of years ago. My impression was that the Gus was stiffer and beefier than the Clem. The Clem hasn't ever had any weight guidelines, but I think given my weight and use case Riv would probably recommend a Gus for me now. 

Most recent picture of my Clem from last weekend: 

https://flic.kr/p/2nCkKpx

-Jeremy Till

Sacramento, CA

On Thursday, August 4, 2022 at 9:37:22 AM UTC-7 ack...@gmail.com wrote:

[Ryan Frahm]

Hey Bob and Jeremy, those are some very nice looking Clem’s!

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

Hey Bob and Jeremy, those are some very nice looking Clem’s!

Thanks! And to answer Max's question, I'm running a White Industries 36-tooth chainring and an 11-42 MicroShift Advent 9-speed cassette. (Also, an Advent 9-speed derailleur and thumbie in friction mode.)

Bob E

Cranford NJ

[iamkeith]

On Thursday, August 4, 2022 at 10:46:15 AM UTC-6 fra...@gmail.com wrote:

Interesting Keith! I definitely plan to use a Clem as my main commuter to haul groceries and my daughter around. I absolutely love my Susie but hate leaving it locked up outside when we are going in anywhere for more than a few minutes. Do you find the Susie BB too high? It is low to me coming from a Chumba Ursa. The Susie is like riding a wet noodle, in a good way without much of a load. I imagine the Clem would be quite a different bike. 

I don't think you can say that any bb is too high or too low - it just depends on what the bike is intended for and how you have it set up.   The  distinction between bottom bracket "drop" - or distance below the axles of the wheels - and the finished "height" - or ground clearance - both matter equally, and it's hard to know what is making the difference for me since different tire diameters make it an apples-to-oranges comparison. 

When I got my bought my Clem, I had visions of using it as a mountain bike.  That's how the model was originally conceived, in fact.  It really didn't work for me that way  because I didn't have enough standover clearance and I would regularly high-center on obstacles, so it kind of organically evolved into more of a road-ish, town-ish, smooth trail-ish, super-fast pathway cruiser.   It was fantastically comfortable - largely because of the generous, rivendell-typical bottom bracket drop - and it quickly became one of two bikes I ever wanted to ride.  Just not as a mountain bike.   Prior to that, I hadn't known I NEEDED a bike like that.

When I got my Susie, it was with the intention of incrementally improving on my Clem, but keeping it for the same type of riding.   In other words, that same every-day bike I hadn't previously known I needed.  However,  this model was ALSO very much conceived as a mountain (hill) bike and, in this case, Grant and crew consciously made it more purposeful... and used a higher bottom bracket / less drop.  Presumably for clearance to avoid pedal strikes. 

Combined with my ginormous tires, I can't under-emphasize how much I feel the difference between the two bikes.  That's my main point - not that one is bad or one is good.  I feel like I'm perched on top of the Susie, while I rode inside of the Clem.

The low, stable feel of the Clem is what made it and many other Rivendell models feel so comfortable and stable.  If you're coming from "normal" brands' bikes or older norba-era mountain bikes, the Susie will still feel low and great.   In my case, it so happens that my 3 other regularly-ridden, true "mountain bikes" all have even lower bottom brackets than the Susie. Like the Susie, they also have much slacker seat tube angles than is vogue for most mountain bikes these days. But they're not typical. Those models and my own tastes were both influenced by appreciation/preference for Rivendell's design philosophy.  So ironically, this personal experience makes my Susie feel high too.

[iamkeith]

Good taste, by the way.   

Your Chumba is designed to accommodate a suspension fork, right?  That's probably why it feels so high.   It needs to have bb clearance even when the fork is compressed.

For a brief moment, I thought the Clem you're looking at was my old one  (same size, color, fenders).  I was about to call the friend I gave it to and say "Hold up...."

[Ryan Frahm]

That’s a lot of great information Keith, thank you for taking the time! First, the Chumba was made to use up to a 120mm suspension fork I believe. They are open about their higher than average bottom brackets. It was a very stable bike. The Susie was just a bike I’ve wanted since it came out. I finally decided to go for it because I’m not a very aggressive rider these days and have no desire to be. I couldn’t be happier with the decision!

I have owned a Jones LWB as well as the SWB after a Surly ECR. They were all low and definitely took time to adjust to. The ECR with similar drop felt even lower so I do have an idea what you are talking about at least! I did come to a deal on the Clem so I will have a very good chance to compare the rides soon! I’m very much looking forward to another bike that I didn’t know I NEEDED! 

[dustin schaber]

I purchased a Clem H in 2017 after really digging my wife's L. I would've sprung for an L myself on account of how elegant the frame looks, but I was hooked on the mustard color and have no regrets. It's long, comfortable, and equally capable of commuting across town or bombing down fire roads (thanks to the Bullmoose bars). After some time passed I got more Clems for my folks and hooked up another buddy with a used H-type so she can haul her kiddos. It's the bike I recommend to most friends (if they / I can find them on the used market). They're great.

Dustin

On Thursday, August 4, 2022 at 7:12:44 AM UTC-7 fra...@gmail.com wrote:

[John Johnson]

Hi!

I had a Clem H and my wife has the same size Clem L. I noticed right away there were a few differences; the L has a longer top tube, longer front center, and longer wheelbase. The difference in top tube length means bars fit differently, stem lengths will need to be adapted, etc. This is not insignificant. bikeinsights is as always helpful: https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=5e234be7c6f2c50017f1e4cc,5e234e0e5c58cd001776de16,

In the end, I was jealous of the extra reach on my wife's Clem L so I sold the H and bought an L.

I would say they do ride a bit differently (agreed on the H being a bit stiffer). Both are great bikes, and it just depends on what you're looking for.

cheers,

John

[Eric Daume]

John,

Were your bikes the same gen? The Clem got longer in later models, but I always thought the L and H had the same geo for the same model years. 

Eric 

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[Ryan Frahm]

Thank you for the messages Dustin and John! I love that mustard color and would have liked to find one in it. I did pick up the one but don’t know the exact year. It is supposed to be here Friday! 

Eric, when I looked on bike insights it showed the fork rake and head tube angle being the main difference on the two. Steeper by about 2 degrees on the H I think with less rake. Trail numbers are still very similar though. It would be fun to spend a weekend riding both on the same paths and trails to decide!

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[iamkeith]

That's interesting.  I'd  put my money on Eric being right and bike insights being wrong.  The wayback machine internet archive should hold the answers.  The Hs didn't last all that long before they decided to just do Ls.  They may even have dropped the upper bar an H version BECAUSE they wanted to lengthen them, and maybe something got whacky with the proportions or angles.  I remember that we were all surprised to learn that they'd gotten longer, so it wasn't talked about in the typical, public way that ,say, the decision to drop the clementine name was.

[iamkeith]

Well, I stand corrected.  Here's a geomety chart from the archive that DOES simultaneously show the shorter H and the longer L.  

https://web.archive.org/web/20200413014654/https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry

[Slin]

Oh cool, thanks for digging up that link to the geo chart. 

I like the note at the end, "Don't get hung up on the numbers though. Go ride your bike!"

[iamkeith]

... but i I guess I still don't know that short Hs were ever produced again, after the Ls got longer.  This chart may have just included the then-defunct H for reference or aspirational purposes.

[Paul Choi]

This might be premature but I have a FFHS 52 Clem H in Grilver that I will be selling once my Roscoe comes in. I bought the bike last year from the original owner. It has some damage to the drive side chainstay and outside of the bottom bracket. The touch up job was very low quality. I didn't care about the cosmetic issues. I think the damage was due to the chain falling off and then some pedaling. I can provide photos if someone is interested and will post an official FS later if there is no interest now. I think this bike was purchased from RBW back in 2019. 

[Ryan Frahm]

I’m not at all sure, but I think the H had at least one run with the new longer geo in 2019. It has more cream accents than the older ones is the only other thing I have noticed. 

[Joe Bernard]

Correctumundo, the shortest Clems in both styles have the bendy seatstays on the smaller sizes, the H went through at least (I think only) two incarnations. The big difference now when looking at used H and L bikes is the newer Ls are markedly stretched in comparison to any H you will find. 

Joe Bernard 

[Ryan Frahm]

Good luck with the sale Paul! Can’t wait to see the Rosco builds to come. Another cool looking bike!

[John Johnson]

Hi Eric,

I believe they were both 2019 (both were bought that year, but it is possible that the H was an older model... it was the mustard color, not sure which year that was). 

But I'm also basing my reasoning on bikeinsights geo charts, which show differences for the same model year.

Cheers,

John

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[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

My own recollection is now somewhat fuzzy regarding all the different Clem batches but I can at least confirm Mustard Clem H's were available going back to 2016 as this was the first (only?) batch where the 65cm H was offered and I bought a 65cm complete on pre-order.  I recall later receiving an email from Dave sometime before they arrived asking whether I'd prefer green or mustard as they had added the second color choice.  After previously being tempted by the 62cm mustard Appaloosa's I opted for the mustard Clem.

[Ryan Frahm]

Thanks again to everyone for the knowledge and extra push to pick up a dedicated commuter! I have it pretty close to perfect for me, just waiting on a new saddle. The ride is exactly how I figured it would be, fantastic! So far it handles light trails a bit better than expected really. The fork seems slightly out of alignment so hopefully I can get that figured out soon. It’s really only a bit tougher to ride with no hands so not that bad.