Law professor, Riv Rider

[Joe Bernard]

From a Riv email: Pam Karlan from the impeachment hearing (WHICH WE'RE NOT GOING TO DISCUSS) rides a Glorius!

[Deacon Patrick]

I ride and love my Rivendells and so does she: proof that people with vastly differing understandings of many and various things purchase and love Rivendells. Rivendell used to bear this more in mind in its communications, and I would welcome with delight a return to those days.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Drw]

Crazy. I only heard her opening statement this morning but thought, “who is this badass?”. Awesome that she’s a rivendell rider.

[A. Douglas M.]

Here, here, Patrick. I heartily concur.

Best,

Aaron in El Paso

[Garth]

Yeah .... The House of many Horses obliges All..... even the futility of futilitiy   ...... giddy up and gallop away little Charlie Horse..... Gallopin' Charlie is Horsey's name ..... 'round and 'bout '..... 'ever Eternity's Flame ;-) 

[Mark Roland]

I think it, Garth somehow puts it into words. It's eerie, I tell ya! 😳

[Joe Bernard]

"I say it here, it comes out there." - Albert Brooks, Broadcast News

[tc]

Interesting. Maybe we should invite her to the Bunch. Also makes me wonder who among the “famous” also rides Riv’s. I know President Carter has a red Atlantis — but haven’t heard about any others. I’m sure there are some...

Tom

[Joe Bernard]

I'm sure she's quite full up with social media at the moment...

[dougP]

I just came across her opening statement.  Do Not Mess with this woman.  She means business.

dougP

[Eric Grim]

She seems nice, bless her heart.  Eric, Spokane

On Wednesday, December 4, 2019 at 4:39:13 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:

[Brewster Fong]

I recall it was a custom, not an atlantis. According to this former Riv builder Joe Stark said he built it:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/22432095@N03/2844653628

Further, there was a story that the bikes were stolen:

https://www.bikingbis.com/2009/01/13/jimmy-carters-bicycle-ripped-off-secret-service-on-the-case/

Don't know what he rides today...

[Joe Bernard]

They were stolen?! Wow, I'd never heard that.

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

The stolen ones were Globes, having replaced the "junk" they were on prior. I hope that junk wasn't a couple of gorgeous customs.
-Kai

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Peter Wicker, the owner of Outback Bikes in Atlanta, might have that junk in his garage

[Joe Bernard]

WOW. I finally read the link and that's a very upsetting story. Did some idiot really take their customs and give them freaking HYBRIDS?? 😳

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

I can neither confirm or deny that some idiot did that, but if someone did do that it puts them deep into evil and nasty, not so much idiocy. Free customs and being the bearer of gifts? It's a win/win! Jimmy's got too much going on to sweat the small stuff and smaller people.

[Shoji Takahashi]

Ugh... that story is infuriating. I wonder who has a Riv frame formerly owned by President Carter... hopefully it's being ridden and not just melted down as scrap metal. 

sheesh.

[Joey Robinson]

I live in Atlanta and have visited Outback a few times. I also know two former employees. One sent me Peter's email address so I just sent him an email to see if he knows where the bikes might have ended up. I'll post updates if I hear anything back

-Joey

[Mark Roland]

Do we even know that the bikes that were sent in for repair were Rivendell customs? It's certainly not evident from the story in the link above.

Maybe they were older ratty bicycles that they kept at the Carter Center, while the Rivendells are kept at their home? Just one of the possibilities since we really have zero information. Also, this happened 10 years ago. Maybe the Secret Service solved the case by now. I wonder if President Carter still rides. He's getting up there.

[Joe Bernard]

It's all speculation, which I think is clear in this thread. None of us have a freaking clue where those customs are, or what happened to those hybrids.

[Jason Fuller]

She is inspirational in her intelligence and character, but being a Rivendell rider is icing on the cake indeed :) 

[Mark Roland]

On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 3:28:36 PM UTC-5, Jason Fuller wrote: She is inspirational in her intelligence and character, but being a Rivendell rider is icing on the cake indeed :) 

And yet she strikes me as a shrill shill and a warmongering fool, and has not displayed much in the way of jurisprudence that I can see. But as the Deacon says, I still loves my Rivs! Now if TG rode a Rivendell...

[Joe Bernard]

"Shrill" is an offensive term to use against a woman, and I was very specific at the start of this thread that this was a bicycle discussion. But thanks for playing, everybody.

[Joe Bernard]

Just forget it, I'll end up deleting the original post from the web side. I thought it was crazy that the lady on my TV lives near me and owns a Riv, so I shared the enthusiasm. It went predictably 😣

[Joe Bernard]

Also I probably should join 2019 and stop being gobsmacked every time I encounter a Riv as if nobody owns them. It's not 1999 anymore!

[DHans]

I think Rivendell concepts are being embraced to a greater extent the past few years. But, they are still quite rare to see in the wild, especially here in Georgia.
Doug

[Mark Roland]

I use shrill in the sense of "strident" and "intemperate". It's a mixte word, not a boy or girl word.

[Mark Roland]

Better hurry up, it's almost over!

[Joe Bernard]

"Better hurry up, it's almost over!"

Crap. I'll never catch up!

[Deacon Patrick]

"I was very specific at the start of this thread that this was a bicycle discussion."

To be able to well object to shrill and shill (gender neutral, as far as I can tell) on the basis of avoiding a political conversation, one ought to have also objected to inspirational, intelligent, of character, do not mess with this woman, she means business, and badass as they also referenced opinions of her testimony rather than her choice of bike. If we're going to censor, do we not need to sensor all political opinions? Or just those that run counter to progressivism (and there are many that are counter to progressivism that are not in full alignment with popularism)?

With abandon,

Patrick

[DHans]

I have to agree DP. I don’t like political stuff on this forum and this may have not been intended as such but it was bound to happen.

[Joe Bernard]

"But thanks for playing, everybody" was a statement to everybody who brought politics into it. That's what "everybody" means. I also said in a following comment just forget it and I will probably delete the original post, and I felt like the conversation had already drifted past this little kerfuffle. I don't this it as necessary to go back and reference every comment and "progressivism" and all that crap.

The reality is I was excited about the TV lady being a Riv Rider and posted here what Will posted on the email. In retrospect it was a bad idea.

[Timothy Hurley]

I really like this thread turning into some Encyclopedia Brown/Nancy Drew action and solving the mystery of Jimmy Carter and the Lost Customs.

(I’m not opposed to political discussions, btw)

[Joe Bernard]

Jimmy Carter could not be reached for comment on a silly cycling forum because he pulled his IV and left the hospital to go build a house.

[Philip Williamson]

Encyclopedia Brown!

There should be a Reader article on those books. Or a new book set in Walnut Creek where a unique bicycle is stolen by a bully and Encyclopedia Brown solves the car by noticing some telling element.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Garth]

Hah hah ..... there's neither politics in Intelligence or Intelligence in politics.

[Brian Campbell]

I just wonder how someone who identifies themselves as conservative could purchase something from Riv and not see a conflict? Grant and crew have always put forth ideas and been involved in actions that are decidedly liberal, IMHO. How do you square the business model of a company that is in many ways the opposite of a prescribed belief system? Same for the liberal folks who buy from Amazon?

[Deacon Patrick]

Easy. Differences in anthropology. Who am I? (and thus who are we?) Why am I here? (and thus why are we here?) What does it all mean? (and this all there is, or is there "something" beyond? Is there a truth higher than my personal opinions/experiences/desires? Is there a God? If so, who is God? What is God like? Is there a heaven and a hell? What determines what happens to me after I die? What are my rights and responsibilities while I live? and so on...).

With abandon,

Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

Correction: Simple, not necessarily easy. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick 

[Patrick Moore]

I have tried to refrain from commenting, but if others are going to
insist on it, I will add my 2c worth.

"Liberal" and "conservative" are labels that have very little
grounding in reality and mean little more than "I like this" or I
dislike that." "Right" and "left" even more confused; what side of the
Chambre des Deputies did Marx or does Trump or Pelosi sit on?

That being the case, I accept that most ideologies are simply confused
mish-mashes, and don't pay them very much attention; as for real
values and doctrine, I try to keep my own mind clear and conform my
own life to what the evidence points to. I don't do this well, but
it's what I aim at.

That being a long windup: I don't epect Grant's political or social
views to be any more coherent than anyone else's, and I evaluate his
qualities through his actions; certainly, making valuable objects well
by paying skilled labor a decent wage is worth supporting; and in
fact, it's as conservative an action, in any coherent meaning of
conservative, as anything else. It's also truly liberal, in a coherent
meaning of that term.

And Amazon being "conservative" in any coherent sense of the term?
That's got to be one of the most blatantly confused juxtapositions
I've seen in a long time!

I will keep my own views to myself except to say that I belong to the
Orthodox church (which has a perfectly coherent doctrine and value
system which it shares with Hinduism and the Navajo and so forth) and,
though I despise all political candidates -- that is to say, I wish
them well, but I despise their ideas -- I find Bernie Sanders the
least incongenial; his policies would hasten the destruction of the
country even faster than without them, but at least he believes in
something reasonably coherent that is more than himself.

And I think Jimmy Carter was as confused as anyone else, but he
appears to be a more decent man than many other public figures I can
think of.

To get back to politics, gawd help us: H. L. Mencken said, "Every
decent man is ashamed of the government he has to live under."

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--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[A. Douglas M.]

Great quote, Patrick.

I love Rivendell’s cycling philosophy, and I think Grant is a great person.

With that said, I prefer my bikes sans political commentary.

I also really enjoy kale and my wife’s blueberry pie. They are also most enjoyable when separated.

It makes me sad to look at a beautiful bike and get distracted by politics, but I understand that business owners often want to use their position as a voice for unrelated philosophies.

Best,

Aaron in El Paso

[Jason Fuller]

I think more than anything, people have vastly different conceptions of what being liberal or being conservative is.  The information you get about either side is entirely different based on your source of news, or your family / friends word of mouth.  That said I've never worried about talking politics with bike people, because 99%+ of bike people are decidedly left-leaning. However, I recognize that in certain rural areas, particularly as you go south, there has been a long-standing misconception about what being liberal means, so I don't hold it against anyone in that scenario for not seeing that as something they want to be a part of.

Also, I think of discussing left vs right and discussing Trump as two different things.  Donald is a brash, small-minded bully and that has nothing to do with his being president, and I don't think any Republican should take those words as being against their beliefs: those are things about Don, not about Republicans.  The same goes for any President - you can't paint half the country with the same brush as the singular leader.

[Joe Bernard]

"Why buy from a liberal if you're conservative?"

Why be friends with a conservative if I'm liberal? Same answer as the one above: Life is better this way. I have close friends who don't agree with me politically AT ALL and it would be insane for me to consider this as a debit against them, that's simply not on the table.

I may not buy a product from a company waving Trump in my face on the Home page - he's a lunatic fake conservative who's scamming his supporters, in my opinion - but I wouldn't base all my purchase decisions on the general political ideology of the people selling them. That's not healthy.

[Garth]

It seems at this point either no one else comment, or else Jim will have to come along and waste his time editing/deleting it because regardless of Joe's intention in posting, was political in nature.

There is no such thing as an Intelligent discussion about politics, zippo, nada.  Intelligence isn't up for debate/choice/will as there is no debating/bait-ing/choosing/willing Intelligence.

"equality" makes no sense as Intelligence is Singularly Single... Indivisibly Indivisible. One and All ....there is no "other". 

So Grant made a comment in his blog about said person, that doesn't make it okay to bring it here as this isn't his blog. If you want to comment him, contact him, not this here group. Discussing bike stuff is what we're here for.

[Brian Campbell]

Interesting answers so far. Thanks!

[Chris L]

Making one's political leanings known is no big deal (although I also prefer all of my hobbies to remain free of politics) but routinely calling half the country (and half of your potential customers) racist, insinuating that black people can't leave their homes for fear of being lynched by white supremacists or saying that a young black woman has likely never had a positive experience with a middle aged white guy, as Grant routinely does, cannot be a positive thing in promoting one's business.    And then Grant doesn't understand why RBW is not getting many orders.  People do make purchasing decisions based on politics.  Like it or not.  

I have a ton of respect for Grant and the way he runs his business and treats his employees.  I also enjoy reading most of the non-bike stuff he writes about and of course, I love the bikes but some of the things he says in the political realm literally make him look nuts to much of the rest of the country.   Pam Karlan day?  REALLY?   

[James Warren]

My understanding when this forum started was that “Discussing Riv products specifically and quality ride* reports” (ridden on other brands being OK if it’s a ride report) was what we’re here for. BOBish philosophies and Grant’s ideas about cameras would be OT. Unless Riv starts selling a specific camera.

For much of a decade the forum was very well-focused and on topic. The topic degradation then got worse and that happened well outside of discussions of elected officials and their policies.

*Ride reports most likely from the types of rides that Rivs are optimized for (S24Os for example) but given it’s a ride report, some leeway was to be expected.

[Joe Bernard]

There's only so far you can go with "no politics" when the Blahg very clearly expresses politics and this forum is about that company. I posted the pic with a rather naive admonition of NO POLITICS, as if that would solve any discussion complexities..I'm an idiot! But in general I think discussions such as this are not entirely The Bad Thing if they don't blow up too badly. To some degree *this* discussion is more about *dealing* with differences than the actual differences themselves, which I find interesting. But I'm just some dude.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/7/19 4:08 PM, James Warren wrote:
> My understanding when this forum started was that “Discussing Riv products specifically and quality ride* reports” (ridden on other brands being OK if it’s a ride report) was what we’re here for. BOBish philosophies and Grant’s ideas about cameras would be OT. Unless Riv starts selling a specific camera.

But that's not how it's been.  Paleo diets -- to cite one example --
have been acceptable material for discussion on list because Grant wrote
about them in a book of his.  Likewise the "just ride" philosophy.   So
if fried pork rinds are in scope, I don't see why film cameras aren't as
well.  They're certainly healthier for you than fried pork rind.

>
> For much of a decade the forum was very well-focused and on topic. The topic degradation then got worse and that happened well outside of discussions of elected officials and their policies.
>
> *Ride reports most likely from the types of rides that Rivs are optimized for (S24Os for example) but given it’s a ride report, some leeway was to be expected.
>
>
>> On Dec 7, 2019, at 12:52 PM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Discussing bike stuff is what we're here for.
>>
>>

--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

[James Warren]

No, paleo diets were not acceptable content. If people view them as such, they are off topic. My point is that this forum did remain much more On topic between its start and say, 2012 or so.

> On Dec 7, 2019, at 1:20 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:
>
> But that's not how it's been. Paleo diets -- to cite one example -- have been acceptable material for discussion on list because Grant wrote about them in a book of his. Likewise the "just ride" philosophy. So if fried pork rinds are in scope, I don't see why film cameras aren't as well. They're certainly healthier for you than fried pork rind.
>
>
>>
>> For much of a decade the forum was very well-focused and on topic. The topic degradation then got worse and that happened well outside of discussions of elected officials and their policies.
>>
>> *Ride reports most likely from the types of rides that Rivs are optimized for (S24Os for example) but given it’s a ride report, some leeway was to be expected.
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 7, 2019, at 12:52 PM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Discussing bike stuff is what we're here for.
>>>
>>>
> --
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia
> USA
>

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[Joe Bernard]

Really there's no "off topic" until the moderator says so. I've seen plenty of Blahg-tangent discussions here because yes, Riv is Grant and Grant has been an interesting figure in this business for over 30 years. I don't think you're going to get "only the bikes and parts" here, it's not realistic.

[James Warren]

I’m not saying you’re gonna get it, Joe, but you have to have an ideal.

> On Dec 7, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Really there's no "off topic" until the moderator says so. I've seen plenty of Blahg-tangent discussions here because yes, Riv is Grant and Grant has been an interesting figure in this business for over 30 years. I don't think you're going to get "only the bikes and parts" here, it's not realistic.
>

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[Joe Bernard]

"I’m not saying you’re gonna get it, Joe, but you have to have an ideal."

Well neither of us are running the joint so I guess we roll with it or talk about folders and Pedersen bikes on internet-bob. The reality is the Blahg became a separate and more personal section of rivbike.com a few years ago and that transition has been reflected here. I'm choosing to roll with it 👍

[Patrick Moore]

This seems to me to be a very workable modus vivendi.

[Mark Roland]

I won't attempt to answer your question, but I will say that thinking in the U.S. has become so binary that any remark one makes is often enough for people to immediately assign you a label, and all the attributes they associate with that label now become attached to you (if not the bike you rode in on.) To me, that is the greatest danger, the inability of a country's citizens to think, discern, write, speak with any nuance. Hard to have any real understanding or empathy if we can't at least do that.

[masmojo]

I've been a little hesitant to jump into the pool, but seeing as it's come up I'll say a few words.

The current Liberal Vs. Conservative, Left Vs. Right crap that's going on is just decisiveness, either "side" is made up of people with various beliefs and were the "liberals" to go away it wouldn't be 10 minutes before the " Conservatives" were divided into several factions.

I think it more important to stand for ideals and be consistent. Is it reasonable that the Republican party objected to virtually everything Obama tried to do no matter how much sense it made or whether it was good for the country; it was objected to at face value. OK, fine, but now they want support from across the aisle and are somehow surprised that they don't get it. Really?

Politics is about compromise, finding a middle ground. Inflexibility is met with inflexibility. Really, doesn't matter which "side" your on as long as you use the same gauge, the same yardstick. The same people who derided Clinton for adultry don't seem to have the same conviction when it comes to Trump. The same people who criticized Obama for writing executive orders when he didn't enjoy a party majority; are noticeably silent when Trump writes MORE executive orders even though he enjoyed having a majority in both houses until recently. The "Tea party" cried about the deficit, but when the GOP voted to increase the deficit under this president did they say anything? Crickets!

Grant is Rivendell and by his own admission he is reluctant to say anything about politics, but he is a product of his generation and whether I agree with him or not. (Generally, I do) how can a resonable person, a humanitarian stand by & say nothing?

All I am trying to say is if you are for something or against something fine, just make sure you don't compromise your integrity. I think America really needs another couple viable parties. Then everyone would be forced to compromise, forge alliances and work together and maybe deviciveness would be reduced.
I vote for the Common Sense Party, because it would bring something we don't have now.

Sorry, but I got that out.

[Joe Bernard]

The problem I see going forward if this Executive Power situation continues unchecked is the precedent will be set. Why would a Democrat win in '20 or '24 and go back to the good old days? That's not how reality works. Anything the president gets away with now will be paid back later, and most of the folks supporting that Dem will applaud. Then we're screwed forever yippee ky yay 🕺🕺🕺

[Drw]

I’ll refrain from engaging politically, since it’s super prohibited. I do think that everyone has been pretty cordial and understanding to others. I understand that political things can go sour fast, and that’s why it’s frowned on here, but at this point in time it’s worth momentarily celebrating whatever cross-the-aisle communication that is happening here.
It’s becoming more and more rare.

[Fullylugged]

I've found bikes to be bridge builders. Bikes don't care about your politics, philosophy or faith. You just get on them and ride. Most people love riding, regardless of the other boxes in life they check. I don't eat paleo, does that mean I shouldn't buy a Riv because GP eats that way? Of course not. I've used my role as a rides admin for several cycling groups to broaden the range of riders who get together to ride. My observation is that people who ride together accept one another's differences better. Some even become friends. Those relationships established while pedaling can continue off the bike as well. When you talk with people instead of at them, you learn about them and their experiences and they do yours.

People tend to generalize but there are usually exceptions to every broad brush we try to paint. Almost nothing that we think is absolutely true and desperately important really is either of those things, although there are many true topics that are important for us to consider and act on. And it never hurts to be kind, even when being firm.

I personally know Riv owners on both sides of the liberal/conservative divide and who agree on well designed, great riding bikes. I hope to meet more.

And let's NOT post something that is going to unavoidably and predictably be political. JB, the testimony in DC did not include any comments on lugs or debate on long chainstays, so it really isn't relevant here. Does she post here? I don't think so. Still own that bike? Who knows.

[Mark Roland]

The post was simply about someone currently in the news who purportedly rides a Rivendell, so I don't think scolding anyone is required. And if all we talked about were chainstay lengths and lugs, snooze. There is currently a discussion over on IBob that I believe started out as a for sale and has wandered into discussions about Facebook and the You Are The Product meme and a 1973 "film" by artist Richard Serra and Carlota Fay Schoolman, "Television Delivers People."

[in Dallas nick]

Interesting comments.

Even with the diversity of backgrounds, life experiences, viewpoints, philosophies, sexes,

and ages

it's great to see the commonality we find over cycling and particular types of bicycles.

Even though I might have different views in some areas from list participants I've learned to respect others and their differing views and hopefully learn something in getting to know them.

Life is very complex in my view and we all are works in progress.

None of us have all the answers do we?

I think we're mostly all trying to figure  'life' out and make sense of the good, the bad and the ugly of it, the temporary aspect of it, the truth of it all and what's possibly next after it ends.

A lifelong pursuit indeed!

I think every life is of tremendous value and worthy of respect and deserving of living a life of freedom and dignity.

Alas it's not a perfect world but we can all strive to do better especially how we treat others.

We just don't know what trials and tribulations have shaped and impacted others lives.

Of course we are creatures with emotions and those emotions can be difficult to keep in check at times.

Those times when my emotions get the best of me and my words I find apologies and forgiveness go a long way.

I like the idea of making a supreme effort to live at peace with all even though easier said than done

Well, mercy, I got a bit carried away and verbose.

A good long bike ride sure helps sort out my thoughts.

Peace out.

Paul in Dallas 

[masmojo]

Well said Paul.

Unfortunately if people only get their news from Fox & Friends OR MSNBC. They are going to have a fairly narrow views of the world.

The people who never travel past the confines of their ranch in (let's say Montana) will have a very different view of the world than someone in Oakland or Houston or Miami.

I am reminded of the story this week of the guy who tweeted that he didn't think Indian food was good & why didn't people stop pretending to like it!? Well, as a lover of Indian food I have to admit I found the backlash amusing. Apparently he tried it at least, I always caution people that it is an acquired taste.
In that vein I rode the Clementine over to the Buddhist temple today to get some Thai street food. YUM

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Htys7pCbS7FVsES98

The best way to fight today's problems is to open ourselves up to different people, places, customs & viewpoints.

[Joe Bernard]

"There is currently a discussion over on IBob that I believe started out as a for sale and has wandered into discussions about Facebook and the You Are The Product meme and a 1973 "film" by artist Richard Serra and Carlota Fay Schoolman, "Television Delivers People."

And now something about Romper Room 🤔
I feel bad for Fitz, a FS post is definitely NOT the place for discussion digressions and his went bad FAST.

[Joe Bernard]

Poor Tom Nichols. It was a silly response to a silly "unpopular opinion" tweet, he just doesn't like the taste of Indian food. Which isn't Indian for it is food.

[Deacon Patrick]

"None of us have all the answers do we?"

Nope, but I know and love the lad who does. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[George Schick]

Deak - based on your replies in this thread as well as some of your comments in the past in different posts, I think that you and I could have some good discussions.  If you wish, PM me and we'll take it from there.

Sincerely, George

[Deacon Patrick]

Always happy to share the journey, George. PM sent. My email is lamontglen aT Mac dot com.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Jason Fuller]

Some of you have questionable opinions about politics, but every one of you has great taste in bikes. 

Here's a photo to hopefully help lighten the mood from my ride today!  Those animals think we're all silly for worrying about such things.

[Joe Bernard]

Rad bike, rad color. I'm too old to say rad. RAD!

[Ash]

Over the weekend I ordered a Susie in orange.  Looking at this picture I hope that it is going to be the same shade of orange!

PS: This has been a good thread, IMO.  During the rides or when I hangout with bicycle people, we talk other things beside bikes.  To me it is better that way.  We have folks disagree big time not just on the political front but also on types of bikes, dietary preferences, rice vs wheat, Mac vs Windows, iPhone vs Android, Pit bulls are good dogs/bad dogs, some love NFL, some want it banned.. 

Mostly we annoy each other.  We also occasionally learn new things from such chats and broaden our perspectives I feel.  Without more discussions and debates among common people I do not see how this deep polarization and escalating mutual hatred can end.

[Joe Bernard]

My impression/memory of riding the demo Susie is the orange was ever so slightly darker, a little more rust in it. Which looks spectacular, I think you'll love it.

"Without more discussions and debates among common people I do not see how this deep polarization and escalating mutual hatred can end."

I tried to address this in an earlier post but it came out - not like I'd hoped - so I deleted (it's still in the emails version of this group): Studies (or at least one I know I read) show that people who have friends on the opposite end of the ideological spectrum tend to soften the most extremist edges of there points of view.

I've found this to be true in my own experience of being pretty tight with a few conservatives. For instance 10 years ago I was probably quite absolute about 2nd Amendment stuff and just wanted them all confiscated, melted, get em outta here. Now I'm more tolerant of the "for protection and hunting" POV, although my friends and I probably still differ on how much regulation is acceptable.

I've seen this mellowing on their end, too. It's a product of actually knowing a real live person you disagree with instead of carrying a caricature of "those libs" or "those cons". You are forced to understand why this person you respect and care for comes to their views and sometimes that light goes off, "Right. I haven't reached that conclusion, but I see how they did." It's a better way to live than this virulent polarized morass the country seems to be in right now.

IN MY OPINION.