Dynamo Wiring inside the Fork and Frame?

[Matthew Williams]

Hi everyone,

Most bikes I see with the SON dynamo have the wire wound around the right front fork blade. I want to run the wire inside the fork using the small hole near the dropout.

I’ve already fished a thin wire through the fork as a leader i.e. I can attach the leader to the SON dynamo wire and pull it through the fork, unless the dynamo wire is too thick. Below are photos of the leader wire I fished through the fork.

Is this possible, or is it a bad idea? Has anyone here managed to achieve this setup? If so, how did you do it, and please post photos of your internal wiring setups!

[Joe Mullins]

I’ve done it a few times and used a Dremmel to enlarge the hole near the dropout. No matter how much I tried to run the wire without enlarging the hole, I failed. I ended up soldering the “fishing” wire to the cable and pulling it from bottom to top.Took me losing the cable several times mid fork and having to re-fish to come up with that method. Learn from my hours of mistakes! Literally hours.

Joe in Los Angeles

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[Luke Hendrickson]

I’ve been tempted to do the same thing. I’ve decided to instead purchase a Pass & Stow rack which allows for internal routing.

[lconley]

My Pashley Guv'nor came with an enlarged hole on the right side bottom of the fork and a slit grommet in a hole on the top of the fork even though it didn't come with a generator - I rectified that with a  Sturmey-Archer 90mm Drum Brake Dynohub. My former Trek Belleville had internal wiring in the fork & frame and the front rack had a separate set of tubes for the light wiring.  I love internally routed electrical wires. Go for it.

Laing

[Eric Norris]

Interesting. My Pashley (gone to a new home several years ago) had two brazed-in mounting points on the fork to which a piece was fitted that accepted a standard bottle generator. The setup is shown in the attached image.

It worked quite well, without the need to run wiring very far at all—just a short distance from the generator to the light.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[Brian Turner]

I wired my Sinewave through the fork blade on my Crust Bombora, and it was probably one of the most frustrating tinkering projects I’ve ever attempted with any of my bikes. I almost gave up numerous times, and I actually had to do it all over again once I had successfully completed the routing. Most of the Crust frames have that cool little routing hole on the backside of the upper right fork blade… which just begs for you to use it as such. The problem is, in order to take advantage of it, you still have to use that little hole down near the dropout as an entry / exit point. No matter what, you’re essentially fishing wiring cable through a hole that is maybe only 1mm wider than the thickness of the cable housing itself, and at a very sharp, awkward angle. No doubt the situation you’re faced with now.

I stripped the wiring to where only one of the two inside wires was exposed and made sure the cuts were as clean as possible. Once that was fed down to the dropout hole, I managed to snag that (now thinner profile) wire with some very, very thin tweezers and pulled the whole cable through. Before I found the right set of tweezers to use, I had tried various methods like using an old spoke, a guiding wire, etc. None of those worked for me.

I don’t have any sure fire advice, unfortunately, but I feel your pain!

[brizbarn]

I did something similar on on my Surly Travels Check, but had to drill the holes bigger. That fork had a small hole at top of fork leg tube, I couldn't go up into steerer tube like yours.  Definitely looks cleaner, but drilling your fork is not ideal, and I doubt you can get the wiring through the little hole, but it would be great if you proved me wrong.  

[brizbarn]

Sean, is that wire similiar to others with two joined wires that can be split and stripped or is it something different? Pic is pretty bad on their site. Do you know if it's sold anywhere else?  

On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 4:08:02 PM UTC-8 Sean, PNW wrote:

The 22AWG wire offered by Velo Lumino, currently out of stock, is the best solution I've found for threading dynamo wiring through tight spaces such as fork legs:

https://www.velolumino.com/product/premium-22awg-wire/10?cp=true&sa=true&sbp=false&q=false

[Matthew Williams]

Hi everyone,

In the weeks to come I’m going to be revisiting the wire-inside-the-fork trick. However, the hole is too small for the existing dynamo wires and I do not want to enlarge the hole.

What would happen if I used a smaller-gauge wire inside the fork, to connect the dynamo to the headlight?

Will a smaller-gauge wire be unable to handle the voltage/amperage from the dynamo? Will the headlight and taillight outputs be weaker? Or will the difference between the existing/stock wire and a smaller gauge be imperceptible?

As always, your wisdom, advice, experience, and opinions are appreciated!

[Ray Varella]

Matthew,

Have you tried the wire that Velocity Lumino sells?

It’s much thinner than some of the other typically available wire for dynamos and is definitely up to the task. 

JMHO

Ray

[christian poppell]

Hey Matthew, 

Smaller wire is fine. The wire that Velo Lumino sells is perfect. Any 22  or 24gauge multistrand wire would work but the Velo Lumino wire is flexible and has very durable insulation. You could also seperate the BM dual strand wire. The insulation is thicker and less durable but works fine. 

If the hole diameter is too small to pull two wires you can ground through the frame. Ground one side of the dynamo to the fork eyelet https://photos.app.goo.gl/xBqTJ575zxQkeUC49 then ground one side of the light to the mount or other hard point https://photos.app.goo.gl/wPGMviZF9n5cYycn6. Run a single wire through the fork and connect to the light. 

Hope that makes sense! I can draw up a diagram if thats helpful. How much wire do you need? I might have some to spare if needed. Also what light and dynamo are you using?

Christian

Phoenix, AZ

[Matthew Williams]

Hi everyone,

An update: I was able to fish the SON dynamo coaxial wire through the fork! Here’s how I did it:

I first threaded a length of picture-hanging wire as a leader through the forks, starting from the crown. I used an old V-brake noodle to guide the leader wire around the 90-degree turn inside the fork tube.

 

When the wire was near the hole at the end of the fork, I pushed a loop of wire into the hole to catch the end of the leader.

The coaxial wire just barely fit through the hole at the fork end, so I cut down the coaxial wire and tied it in a square knot with the end of the leader wire.



I then gently pushed the coaxial wire up though bottom of the fork while simultaneously gently pulling the leader wire from the crown.



Success!



Thanks everyone, for your advice, expertise, encouragement, and wisdom. I very much appreciate it.

[Richard Rose]

My question is, why wouldn’t everyone running a dynamo do this? Perhaps for sharing a single light with more than one bike? So clean.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 3, 2023, at 2:34 AM, Matthew Williams <matthewwil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,

>
> An update: I was able to fish the SON dynamo coaxial wire through the fork! Here’s how I did it:
>

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>
> I first threaded a length of picture-hanging wire as a leader through the forks, starting from the crown. I used an old V-brake noodle to guide the leader wire around the 90-degree turn inside the fork tube.
>
>

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> <IMG_5037.jpg>
>
>
> When the wire was near the hole at the end of the fork, I pushed a loop of wire into the hole to catch the end of the leader.
>

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> <IMG_7920.jpg>
>
>
> The coaxial wire just barely fit through the hole at the fork end, so I cut down the coaxial wire and tied it in a square knot with the end of the leader wire.
>

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> <IMG_7919.jpg>
>
>
> I then gently pushed the coaxial wire up though bottom of the fork while simultaneously gently pulling the leader wire from the crown.
>

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> Success!

>
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> <IMG_7923.jpg>
>
>
> Thanks everyone, for your advice, expertise, encouragement, and wisdom. I very much appreciate it.
>
>

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[Pam Bikes]

I run the wire along the fork and have a ziptie - if I'm finicky I'd match it to the bike frame.  Not barber shop wrap.  It's hidden and easy to replace if I need to.  I do leave a few loops of wire and curly cue around a screwdriver to make sure I have some give for turning.  And a loop near the bottom bracket in case I need some extra but it's all unobtrusive and easy.  It works and I've never had a problem after daily riding.  

[Brian Barnhart]

Nice job Matthew, and thanks for the pics and explanation! I think I’ll try the same, but with B&M wire. I just got a new B&M IQ-XS light that I need to properly wire up with my Sinewave Reactor usb charger. I also still want to get a rear light too. 

Brian

On May 2, 2023, at 11:44 PM, Matthew Williams <matthewwil...@gmail.com> wrote:



Hi everyone,

An update: I was able to fish the SON dynamo coaxial wire through the fork! Here’s how I did it:

<IMG_5038.jpg>

I first threaded a length of picture-hanging wire as a leader through the forks, starting from the crown. I used an old V-brake noodle to guide the leader wire around the 90-degree turn inside the fork tube.

<IMG_5037.jpg>

 

When the wire was near the hole at the end of the fork, I pushed a loop of wire into the hole to catch the end of the leader.

<IMG_7918.jpg>

<IMG_7920.jpg>

The coaxial wire just barely fit through the hole at the fork end, so I cut down the coaxial wire and tied it in a square knot with the end of the leader wire.

<IMG_7919.jpg>

I then gently pushed the coaxial wire up though bottom of the fork while simultaneously gently pulling the leader wire from the crown.

<IMG_7921.jpg>

Success!

<IMG_7923.jpg>

Thanks everyone, for your advice, expertise, encouragement, and wisdom. I very much appreciate it.

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[Philip Williamson]

Time. Hassle. 

I've got three dedicated dynamo bikes, and one is built for internal wiring through the fork and rack. I haven't run the wires and attached the plugs because I don't trust that I can do a good job. My bikes look awesome even with external wiring, so I'm not too concerned with losing style points. 

Philip

Sonoma County, Calif

[Jeffrey Arita]

Matthew,

Thank you for your post and your successful update.  This inspired me to try.

I have been successful for two different forks - one a modern Soma road bike fork and the other a mid-90's Trek Multitrack fork.  Used a bright yellow insulated 22 ga. stranded wire to fish with.  Was able to use a combo of a single wire strand from a discarded brake cable to 'hook' the wire out of the second hole or a very fine set of tweezers to grab it.  Yes, lots of patience and pushing and pulling to see where that darn wire was.

I used (new) B&M double strand wire for the connections.  Removed about 1" of insulation from the B&M and removed about 1.5" of insulation from the yellow fish wire.  Twisted the stranded wires together to form a good decent bond.  Gently pushed and pulled the assembly through.  Lots of patience.

Note: Like you I physically removed both forks from the bikes - yes lots of disassembly and time!   Mounted each fork in a vise for stability and a powerful flashlight. Was it worth it?  I think so.

Best regards,

Jeff

Claremont, CA  

On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 10:13:40 PM UTC-8 Matthew Williams wrote:

[brizbarn]

I decided to give the through the Appaloosa fork dynamo wiring a try.  I did not remove my fork like others have mentioned.  After some time trying to get a guide wire (picture frame wire) in bottom of steerer tube and around the lug bend into fork leg, I gave up on that.  I tried the v-brake noodle trick, but that didn't work for me, even with some bending of the noodle.  I currently have fenders on my bike, so the bottom of steerer tube is blocked off by fender mounting hardware.  I originally thought I might drill a hole in the rack mounting hardware (basically a metal and rubber washer seen in second pic) at bottom of steerer tube to route wire through.  

I knew I would not be using the braze-on rack mount hole at the top of my fork lug, so I ran the guide wire in that and down the fork leg easily to the bottom vent hole.  I bent a safety pin into a tiny hook (cane shaped) and used that to fish the guide wire out, this took some time/patience, and a head lamp is recommended.  I then twisted B&M style dynamo wire to the guide wire, and push/pulled it through the fork leg and out the top hole.  I routed it around the back and under the fork crown to my front rack.  

I bought Velo Lumino 2mm banana plugs so that I can disconnect that wire when I need to remove my rack and fenders.  Those require solder, which I did for the first time.  I used tiny plastic p-clamps that came in a wiring kit to hold those in place. The top end (right-side) of the banana connectors I solder both my B&M IQ-xs light wire and the wire that goes to my Sinewave Reactor USB charger (glad I didn't sell this).   I just keep the UBS charger in my front bag, and will plug it in when I need it (which is not often).  The wire you see wrapped around rack is the USB charger wire.  This wiring setup and routing works well so far and I'm glad I did it even if it took some time to do.  Next up, I'll probably hook up a rear dynamo at some point. 

[brizbarn]

[brizbarn]

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 12:06:12 PM UTC-7 brizbarn wrote:

[brizbarn]

Christian, thanks for the pics and example.  I have some of the Velo Lumino wire.  With a a B&M light, would I need to run two wires to a rear B&M light?  Or do something similar to what you show in your pics, grounding to the frame on both the headlight and taillight ends, and just running one length of wire to the rear light?   Splitting a single length of Velo Lumino wire into two and adding spade terminals would not work, right?

[Matthew Williams]

Hi everyone, I thought you'd like an update of my progress.

After frying several connectors with my Bronze Age soldering iron, I borrowed a friend's pencil iron and electronics solder and added the Schmidt coaxial connectors to the headlight and dynamo leads.

I like the cleanliness of the internal wiring.

Let there be light!

I fished the taillight wires through the bottom bracket and chainstay...

...and out at the rear dropout.

I wasn't satisfied with B&M's plastic mount for the Micro taillight so I fabricated a lowercase p-clamp for the seatstay.

I also made a new set of leather handgrips to match my new saddle. Here's the earlier version.

[D D]

Matthew, 

Thanks for the update with pics. I’m not sure I’m intrepid enough to dive right in, but you make it look do-able. 

Can’t wait to see pics of the final build. 

Dustin

On May 25, 2023, at 1:24 PM, Matthew Williams <matthewwil...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi everyone, I thought you'd like an update of my progress.

<coax_8185_lores.jpg>

After frying several connectors with my Bronze Age soldering iron, I borrowed a friend's pencil iron and electronics solder and added the Schmidt coaxial connectors to the headlight and dynamo leads.

<dynamo_8197_lores.jpg>

I like the cleanliness of the internal wiring.

<light_8194_lores.jpg>

Let there be light!

<bottombracket_8200_lores.jpg>

I fished the taillight wires through the bottom bracket and chainstay...

<dropout_8198_lores.jpg>

...and out at the rear dropout.

<taillight_8202_lores.jpg>

I wasn't satisfied with B&M's plastic mount for the Micro taillight so I fabricated a lowercase p-clamp for the seatstay.

<grips_8204_lores.jpg>

I also made a new set of leather handgrips to match my new saddle. Here's the earlier version.

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[christian poppell]

Hey Matthew, 

I’m replying on my phone so apologies in advance for any typos or non-standard formatting. 

Running two wires to the taillight from the dynamo is probably the best and loner straightforward way to do it. It’s a closed system and easy to track down any issues if they arise. 

I’m not sure which model B&M light you have but you can certainly try grounding one side of the dynamo and one side of light to the fork and frame respectively. I’ve heard the anodizing on some higher quality cartridge bearing headsets (Chris King, etc) can prevent the continuity between the fork and the frame. In the past folks have suggested removing the anodization around the neck of the headset cup to allow current to pass through. It’s easy to check for continuity between frame and fork; set a multimeter to resistance (ohms) and touch one probe to bare metal on the fork, and the other probe to bare metal on the frame (eyelet or dropout works well). If the needle or number is close or on zero you shouldn’t have a problem. If there’s no change in reading then you don’t have continuity, probe around and start troubleshooting :)

Splitting a single length of Velo Lumino wire into two and adding spade terminals would not work, right?

Not sure what you mean by the above. The Velo Lumino wire that I have is a single strand. One of the headlight companies includes a two stranded 22ga wire that can be split into single strands. The insulation on that wire is less durable and larger in diameter making it difficult to pull through small holes. One strand is black and the other is white, bare wire is copper. Is that the wire you’re referring to?

The wire Velo Lumino sells is thin (22ga?) and has a tough but thin insulation that is much smaller in diameter to hardware store wire or anything else I’ve found. I find it easier to work with compared to the coaxial wire Schmidt uses on their lights. 

In the next few months I’ll be reconfiguring my lighting setup. I can snap some photos and draw some diagrams if you’d like some more detailed information on how it’s configured. 

Hope that’s helpful! 

Christian 

Phoenix, AZ 

On May 24, 2023, at 15:08, brizbarn <brizba...@gmail.com> wrote:

Christian, thanks for the pics and example.  I have some of the Velo Lumino wire.  With a a B&M light, would I need to run two wires to a rear B&M light?  Or do something similar to what you show in your pics, grounding to the frame on both the headlight and taillight ends, and just running one length of wire to the rear light?   Splitting a single length of Velo Lumino wire into two and adding spade terminals would not work, right?

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[brizbarn]

Hey Christian and Matthew, thanks for the posts.  Wow, that frame routing looks great Matthew, didn't realize you could go through the chain stay, good work.  I'm planning something very similar, but not sure I'll go through the frame.  B&M IQ-XS front light, B&M U, My, Mini (whatever it's called) rear, with Shutter Precision hub. 

Some follow up Christian:  My understanding is that you should not power a rear light straight from the dynamo hub, but rather from the front light. Not sure if that is what you meant.  My thought was to use the existing spade connectors from front light (you can see in first pic), ground one of those to the front rack, and run one strand of Velo Lumino thin wire to rear light via the other spade connector.  Then connect it with a spade connector to the rear light, and ground the rear light to the frame (via a rack eyelet where I'll be mounting the light).  You said running two stands of Velo Lumino wire is more straight forward, but do you think my plan would work?

 

for reference: Left is Velo Lumino 22 wire. Right is B&M double strand. If I need to run two strands of Velo L wire from front to rear light, its not much thinner than running B&M double strand, just more pliable and better insulated is my understanding.

for reference in this pic: B&M double strand wire with spade connectors, two spade terminals, a banana connector, a loop crimp for grounding.

[Ted W]

It's a bit of mess right now, but here's the wiring for my GBW:

For the bottom we reemed out the hole near the drop outs ever so slightly to let the wires fit through and water sealed it with some goop (hot glue): https://photos.app.goo.gl/r5PvzDjBGAFrSycc7

For the top we used a downtube barrel adjuster we found with the same thread pitch as a mounting screw and threaded the wire through it to avoid having to negotiate the 90º bend at the top (done that on another bike and cursed every minute of it). Once again, we sealed the hole with goop: https://photos.app.goo.gl/MH6KwkcRCUgXvinC7

Hope the additional reference material helps.

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404-667-1561

[christian poppell]

Hey Brizbarn,

Correct, tail light should be powered through the appropoite connector on the headlight. I believe the tail light has a lower power requirement than what the dynamo provides. 

I attached a diagram that is the same wiring scheme as my bike and what your message discribes, its easier for me to understand if I draw it than to write it out (electrical peeps, forgive me for the + and -). Sounds like what you described would work though! You can pull those little red caps off the ring terminals (loop crimp) and use heat shrink for a cleaner look. The connections can be soldered or crimped in place. 

Christian

Phoenix, AZ

[brizbarn]

Thanks for the diagram Christian.  I'll give that a try when I get a rear light, just having a hard time wanting to spend 80 some dollars on a tiny rear light at the moment.

Nice set up Ted.  Looks similar to mine, I just skipped the a few steps.  It's working great for me so far.

[Matthew Williams]

Hi everyone, here are a few photos of the progress.

I’ve installed the taillight, just need to clean up the wiring.

[Ted W]

I love how the tail light is mounted. Is that a purpose made clamp or is that a rack clamp repurposed?

On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 12:31 PM Matthew Williams <matthewwil...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi everyone, here are a few photos of the progress.

I’ve installed the taillight, just need to clean up the wiring.

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Waiting on a couple of parts for the headlight.

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Ted Wood < ted.l...@gmail.com >

[Matthew Williams]

Thanks! Yes, the clamp was purpose-made: I fabbed it from a piece of scrap metal.

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[Patrick Moore]

Home-made clamp: PDG!!

(= Pretty Damned Good)

Those cantilevers: '90s -- but I can't just now recall the maker; at any rate, I do recall that they are considered top designs. Can you name the maker?

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Matthew Williams]

They’re Paul Motolites . . . courtesy of Ryan!

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[Matthew Williams]

Hello all, I have an update and some questions.

This afternoon I installed the headlight and finished a few details. After sunset I went for a ride, and I was amazed at the brightness and throw of the new headlight and taillight!

However, I have a few questions for people familiar with the SON dynamo and Schmidt Edelux II:

1: Once the bike is moving, the 0, S, and 1 switch positions do not function. I can turn the lights on, but not off. What’s the story here?

2: When I ride with the headlight switch in the “S” position, the light is dim and flickers. Is that normal?

3: When I got home and put the bike away, the lights remained on for several minutes, regardless of the switch position. Is that normal?

4: The light shape on the ground is sort of a trapezoid, surrounded by a less-bright circle. Is that the way the light beam was designed?

5: My headlight is mounted on my handlebars; most headlights I’ve seen are mounted at the fork crown or on a front rack. What is the advantage of mounting the light lower and closer to the front wheel? If my headlight is mounted on the handlebars, am I reducing the efficacy of the light? 

6: The light is illuminating approximately ten to twenty feet of road in front of me. What is the correct position for the light? Should I aim the light higher or lower?

Below are some photos from this evening’s ride. As always, your wisdom, experience, and advice are welcomed and appreciated.

The throw and brightness of the Edelux is amazing.

Here's the trapezoid light shape, surrounded by a circle.

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep, but I have promises to keep...

...and miles to go before I sleep.

 

[lconley]

#5 - I believe that most generator powered headlight beams were designed to project from just above the wheel (rack or fender or fork crown mount), as that is sort of constant within a short range. Handlebar heights can vary greatly and can end up with the light pointed down too much.

The handlebar mounted battery lights would be an obvious exception to this.

Try these:

https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/headlights.php

https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/plight.php

Also explore the rest of Peter White's site - most everything you need to know about bicycle lighting is there.

Laing