Is the Clem a Hillibike?

[theenchantingwizardofrhythm]

Hi there - first time poster 

and coming at you from Tel Aviv, possibly(?) the only Riv owner this side of Mesopotamia...

I got myself a 59 Clem H which I love oh so dearly

My friends, equipped with hard-tail mountain-bikey-bikes, are going out for a couple day off-rode ride that includes some singletrack.

They say I probably can't hang with the Clem.

So what do you think?

Should I go out confident that the silver steed will hold its own?

or am I setting myself up for a world of pain and a bruised bike? 

Many thanks,

gk

[Joe Bernard]

Welcome! Clem H is indeed a stout Hillibike, it was designed as a you-can-buy-one-new replacement for all the late-'80s-to-mid-'90s steel hardtails that used to be cheap on the secondhand market but are now kinda pricey to get back to new condition because they're all 25-35 years old now.

So yes it will hold up to that type of riding. Will you keep up with your buddies? That's hard to say without a clearer picture of what they're riding, but you won't break your bike. Have fun!

[Joe Bernard]

Oops, my terminology is confused there. Your bike is a rigid, hardtail is a front suspension bike. Keeping up WILL be an issue if they're running suspension forks.

[Eric Daume]

As a mountain biker and former Clem owner, the Clem wouldn’t be my first choice to hang with my fast riding buddies on their full sus bikes.  It doesn’t have the confidence inspiring feeling of my Jones LWB. For a mellower group or solo ride, it would be ok. The Clem is going to attract some attention as such an oddball bike, though. 

Eric

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[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

You should feel confident that you and it will be fine. You'll likely be the fastest for fear of not being, but don't let that or anything else get in the way of being the funhavingiest (with rhythm).
-Kai

[Mark Roland]

+! Show them what a well-designed bike can do. You do not need front suspension to do an off road ride with some singletrack. Or to go fast on that singletrack. Take off your fenders if so equipped, put on the fat knobbies, and don't look back!

[ANDREW ALLEN ERMAN]

Hi!  Glad to meet another member of the Clem family!  I have enjoyed riding my Clem H on trails with steep and long climbs (and descents).  The Rivendell description was accurate in my experience - you ride with the terrain instead of thru it.  For me, this meant paying more attention to the trail in front of me and making quick adjustments in anticipation.  This also meant I needed to go slower on the trail.  Overall, I enjoy this type of trail riding and did not find myself missing bike suspension.  In full disclosure, the type of aggressive riding one can do with full suspension has never appealed to me, so I can't contrast that kind of riding compared to what I do like.

Best,

Andy

PS  I also like the more upright position I have on my Clem compared to the more aggressive position I have experienced on the usual mountain bike. 

[Surlyprof]

GK,

We all used To ride rigid on singletrack with 2” tires (or skinnier) back in the late ‘80’s. Front suspension hardtails came along which help a bit with control on the really rocky stuff. Check out what Yakeen pulls off on an Atlantis. It’s inspiring (and a great video).
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/Atlantis$20film/rbw-owners-bunch/-bK8QNnM77E

John

[Surlyprof]

Oops. Not sure I copied the link correctly.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1f2XIWEK9hciggoo5WRVwQeSKHocUUDOz/view?usp=sharing_eil&ts=5dd02343

Johns

[dstein]

From what I recall, the hilibikes are meant for lighter trail riding, and not technical terrain/singletrack. Not that you can't ride that kind of stuff with it, but I wouldn't be able to keep up with more experienced riders with more capable bikes. I used to use a Hunqapillar for all kinds of trail riding, but I was pretty slow on that compared to my Jones which is my main mtn bike now. I don't have any experience with the Clem, so take that for what it's worth. But really depends on the type of terrain they're riding. But if they already are saying you 'can't hang' they sound like the kind of group who isn't going to be super patient if you're taking a little more time. 

That being said, it's all about your own capabilities. I've been riding with people on hardtail aluminum beat up 90's mountain bikes that smoked me on fs mountain bikes. And any one at Riv HQ can probably outride serious mtn bike riders on modern mtn bikes, those Riv employees are super strong riders. And 'some' singletrack might be totally doable. It is weird to me that they're on hardtails and claiming that, I get if they're on super fast suspension bikes. I do question the difference b/w their hardtails and a Clem in this scenario.

I would just be careful and set expectations properly. Again, nothing is stopping you from riding it anywhere. You and the bike would be fine. It's just a matter of the group you're with, and if you do find you need to slow it down, whether it's because the bike or your own skills, how cool are they going to be with it?

[Adam Leibow]

it depends how skilled your friends are VS. how skilled you are. the clem H is more than capable of riding fast technical stuff. i've done some fast technical offroad rides on my clem L no problem. i would argue suspension only helps if you are absolutely FLYING downhill. i know ive shared this video ad nauseam but this was shot on the clem L if it helps for reference: https://www.instagram.com/p/B2LYQMQlCdZ/

On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 11:01:47 PM UTC-7, theenchantingwizardofrhythm wrote:

[Cameron Sharp]

+1 to what dstein said. 

My experience is that shreddability (that's a technical term) really varies with the rider. While riding mild singletrack, my friend and fellow RBW-er Adam L. is miles ahead of me on his full rigid Atlantis running two inch tires while I'm on his custom hardtail. He rides trails all the time and therefore knows how to shred an Atlantis while I only occasionally ride trails and therefore have no idea how to shred a machine purpose-built for shredding. If the skill gap is wide, technical bike shtuff will likely widen it further. 

All of that said, there's no reason why they couldn't go slower and y'all could just commit to having fun together as a group. I personally just purchased a 52cm Clem H that I'm planning to build up for some loaded dirt touring and I don't see any reason why it couldn't handle everything I'm interested in doing in the dirt (i.e. no rock gardens, no super-technical aggro singletrack, downhill, etc.). Someone at Riv HQ told me they did the Great Divide Mountain Bike Trail on a 26" wheeled Atlantis. So yeah, a lot is possible with the right attitude, the willpower to make it work, and the patience to enjoy yourself along the way. 

[Jason Fuller]

I interpret Hillibike as a modern interpretation of a Klunker. Basically ditching all the new technology, but refining what's left. Anyway, that's more an esoteric discussion and has little to do with where you can ride the bike - I agree with others that you'll probably be working a lot harder / getting more beat up than the other riders to get to the same place, but you absolutely can get to the same place on the Clem.  It would be a shame to miss out on an adventure like that based on the idea you need more than the Clem - you certainly don't - but it's more about whether your adventure pals are willing to wait for you at the end of technical stretches and such.  You might be waiting for them after smooth stretches! :D   

The only further consideration I would make is whether your tires are up to the terrain you'll be on.  If it's going to be mostly dirt with some technical bits, I'd put some 2.2" or 2.3" knobbies on there. 

[ANDREW ERMAN]

Cool video!

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[Deacon Patrick]

All other things being equal, a hardtail will out climb a bouncy bike and a bouncy bike will out descend a hardtail. The simple answer is, of course you can do it. Keep in mind, you will need to ride the trails differently than they do (Grant's ruminations on Mongolian style riding are excellent fodder here). Where they shred, you bob and weave. You'll have as much or more fun, and enjoy the trail in a very different way because of this. Bottom line, absolutely, Clem can handle it. Go. Have a blast. Enlighten your friend's ignorance. And you will have your own version of smooth riding. Grin. Enjoy, with abandon!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

"Should I go out confident that the silver steed will hold its own?
or am I setting myself up for a world of pain and a bruised bike?"

I'll try this again after my rather confused two answers last night: I'm not sure it will hold its own if all your buddies have front suspension, you are setting yourself up for a world of pain, your bike will be fine.

[masmojo]

Everything is relative; I don't think the bike will hold you up, but you and the bike could hold your friends up.
Single track means different things to different people depending on their local conditions. I could take my Clem(entine) on much of the trails I used to race on in East Texas with no real issue & have a blast doing it. Some of the trails around Central Texas? Maybe not.
August before last my son & I did a road trip to the West coast; I rode Chuckwagon in Sedona & Repack in Fairfax. (On my Surly Ogre) I could have done Repack on my Clementine (it would have been a gas), but Chuckwagon on the Clementine? One or both of us would have gotten broken!

So, the answer to your question is . . . . Maybe.

[Max S]

Welcome to the forum!

I do have a lot of opinions on any topic; most of the time I’m wise enough to keep them to myself, but ahma take a flyer on this one:

1. There was a poster (“Jay in Tel Aviv”) awhile back who owned a Riv, so perhaps you can search through the archives and connect with them. And hang out - a mini Riv party?..

2. My recollection from spending time around those parts last year is that off-road cyclers in Israel seem to be fully into full suspension rigs, and road cyclers tend to be squarely behind plastic fantastic with aero wheels, city riders all seem to be mini-velos or electric (in which case it’s also mini), and the market for used bikes is quite bad compared to US. All this is driven by historical cultural and geographic factors...

3. My impression is that the terrain for many off-road adventures involves rather bumpy roads, and full-suspension is popular there for good reasons. That said, the main driver is a cultural interest and affinity for high tech and innovation and “results”.

4-a. But a fit and skilled rider on the right kind of tires can be quite fast on a Clem type of bike.

4-b. You can try a sprung Brooks, a ThudBuster type of seatpost, and a Girvin or Softride type of sprung & damped stem for additional cushion.

5. http://5metresofdevelopment.blogspot.com/ - worthwhile reading! Matt Chester single-speed fully rigid “monster cross” bikes are highly sought and rare, and this whole approach to rough-stuff riding is quite interesting... But it does come from a slightly different set of “survival” constraints — it isn’t from a standpoint of covering the longest distance in the shortest time with the least effort from an external perspective; rather, it’s in a push to simplify, reduce cost, maximize realizability, and get to one’s own “center”, as it were, in the most direct route; keeping up with others is a diametrically opposed paradigm to that.

- Max “I do miss hummus from Abhu Ghosh and Sarona market and...” in A2

[Clayton Scott]

If you are of similar ability as your friends I don't think the lack of a bouncy fork will hold you back.

Get big tires, don't pump them too much too little.

Worst case scenario is that you won't keep up if you go but then you can just enjoy riding by yourself. 

If I were you I'd give it a go.

Been riding my BMC monstercross with 38-42 mm tires as a single speed mountain bike over the past year and it has been a blast mostly, but even my real mountain bike is rigid.

Down I am a little slower on the BMC since I have to pick my lines with a little more care. Going up I am faster since he bicycle is super light and the single gear forces you to commit. On the flats it is pathetic, but luckily we don't have much of that on the trails I usually ride.

Clayton Scott

HBG, CA

On Wednesday, May 6, 2020 at 11:01:47 PM UTC-7, theenchantingwizardofrhythm wrote:

[Jason Fuller]

I rode some technical XC today (representative photo attached) and my mtb skills translated pretty well (save the silly things like fenders which are not appropriate in places like this!) to the Clem.  I wouldn't hesitate to ride with fancier bikepacking rigs on the Clem, but it's by no means a modern mountain bike. It really comes down to two things: 1) your resilience and skill on the terrain and 2) your friends' willingness to wait at the bottom of the hills

[YQ]

Hi GK - welcome!

I thought I would add my two cents because I have a Riv Atlantis set up for trail riding and recently bought a hardtail Santa Cruz Chameleon. I believe that whether you can hang with your friends will come down to the type of terrain you will be riding and your friends' skill and fitness level. The main thing I would consider is whether or not you will have fun based on where you are going to ride and the friends you are going to be riding with (irrespective of keeping up or not). I have found that if the terrain is too challenging for the bike or my skill level, I end up being too scared and beat up to enjoy the ride. But if your bike and skill level are a good match for the terrain, you'll have a lot of fun regardless of whether your friends are in front of you or behind you. A Clem can definitely be a lot of fun on singletrack, but singletrack can mean a lot of different things....

-Yakeen

[theenchantingwizardofrhythm]

Woah - blown away by all the feedback - love it!

So, Ive actually taken the Clem out on a few group rides with people on "gravel bikes". Theyre always confused why I arrived with a "cruiser" - until we get to dirt - and especially when we get to dirt climbs - and then theyre even more confused to see me sail by with a smile. I get a lot of credit as a rider - but I know that its the land-yacht I'm riding, not these lanky legs. 

Those rides though never really had very technical single-track, and thats the open question. My buddy has since clarified that what worries him is the sheer length of said land-yacht that may prove challenging for me. Either way, sadly, turns out I cant even make it out to this trip :( - so no ride report this time. But im going to test the limits soon! Thanks for all the info and encouragement!

Attached is a photo testing how to haul the bike. Not sure who's hauling who here :))

ps - loved the videos! @Adam L  - did I catch a glimpse of Revit there? another architect in the room?

[Lee Kimball]

Wow, that trail looks super fun to ride. Any idea where it is? Also, what kind of handlebars are those—looks like a bullmoose but I'm kind of a noob still when it comes to knowing bike things (or any things, really).

[Brendan Willard in SF]

Same wheelbase on both rides there!  As a fellow Riv AND Suzuki owner, I approve.  

I too have been wondering about riding rigid along with the squish crew, so the thread has been a good read.

Looking forward to the ride report when it happens.

Best,

Brendan

[Deacon Patrick]

Length is not a limiting factor. Yes, you will need to take different lines than on a shorter wheelbased bike, but you will be more stable doing so. The main factor you have to adjust to as a rider in tight, obstacled turns is plotting two lines, one for each wheel. In general, I swing wider/smoother with my front tire and my rear tire takes a tighter, jouncier line. Works just fine.

With abandon,

Patrick