New batch of Sam Hillbornes this fall.

[Grady Wright]

The Email Newsletter from Rivendell yesterday mentioned Sam Hillbornes are coming later this year and maybe in an older Rivendell color. Any guesses what that color could be?

[eddietheflay]

duh. orange. that'd be cool.

[Tom Wyland]

I just assumed it was the forest green color shown in the next photo.

[Nathan Mattia]

Oh, you mean this orange here?  At the StL Riv Meetup I finally noticed the metallic luster of the paint.  

[Dave Johnston]

I just hope they don't lengthen the chainstays and top tube. The current Atlantis, Joe's are no longer drop bar compatible and that is sad :(

-Dave J

[André P]

My personal picks would be either hunqapillar green or the quickbeam silver.

[Clayton Scott]

The MIT Atlantis are excellent for drop bars. It might take some rethinking on what constitutes appropriate stem length though. There several advantages to shorter stem with longer frame.

Clayton Scott
HbG, CA

[John Bokman]

I don't know, but that old black was the nicest I've ever seen! That color really pops. Although I've got an Orange Sam, I'd be mighty tempted to get another in Black, assuming the dimensions/specs are the same on the forthcoming iteration.

On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 5:29:13 PM UTC-7, Grady Wright wrote:

[RichS]

+1 on the black and cream color combination. I have a sidepull sage green Sam and often wish I had the black canti version as well. Hope Riv doesn't change a thing on what has been for me, an exceptional bike.

Best,

Rich in ATL

[Eamon Nordquist]

The newest MIT Atlantis models do seem to have gotten even longer than the first round. I personally wouldn’t be able to fit dropbars to one without it going a size too small, and having way more stem and seat post than I would be happy with (short stem notwithstanding). I do hope the new Hillbornes haven’t gotten longer. The roster is pretty chock full of long bikes. Could be what others want, though. Who knows?

Eamon
Seattle

[James / Analog Cycles]

New MIT Atlantis frames worth fine with shorter reach drop bars and 30mm or 0mm stems.  No need to size down.  -James / Analog Cycles / Discord Components / Etc etc

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bk8H2AKhPiD/

[Eamon Nordquist]

To each their own, but if that is “making drop bars work”, it’s not for me. I’m not afraid of short stems either. But, hey, it’s all about what works for each individual. I just think the new longer bikes are designed for swept back bars, and if you are near the bottom end of the pbh range for a given size, most folks are going to consider it a compromise or worse to try running drop bars on them.

I’m interested to see what the new Hillborne color will be. The black/cream ones were great.

Eamon
Seattle

[Jason Fuller]

I've said more than once that I'd rather a second Hillborne than any other bike, that's how much I love the Hillborne - this might make me put my money where my mouth is!  Haha..

(and to explain, I'd have one set up with drops, slicks, and fenders - and the other would have knobbies and an upright bar) 

[Clayton Scott]

A few thoughts:

- Agree to keep the Hillborne as is. Keep cantis too. Just to have some diversity in the line up.

- Short stem and drops: Personally I don't see it as "making it work". There are even benefits to it: longer wheelbase is possible, less TCO or similar TCO but with bigger tires and fenders. more centered when climbing out of saddle = more traction, less forward weight on steep descents = less headers, etc.

- Short stem and drops currently looks weird to people because it is not widely done, but I would not be surprised if sub 60mm stems became the norm on gravel bikes soon. Sub 50mm is already normal on MTB and no one thinks it is weird anymore.

- The new Rivendell sizing is very different than what it was a few years ago. I used to ride a 62cm quickbeam and a 61cm Toyo Atlantis comfortably. Bought a 59 MIT Atlantis last year and it rode too big for my taste. Now I have a 56cm MIT Atlantis and that fits excellent. It is nominally the smallest bike I own, but rides much larger. Had I carefully studied the new PBH chart I would have likely gone with the 56 out the gate, but thought I knew better so I learned the hard way. What seems too small may actually be just right.

Best,

Clayton Scott

HBG, CA

[David Johnston]

There are benefits to one-size-fits all bicycles like Bromptons. I
suppose there are benefits to reversing your 8cm stem and running a
16cm longer top tube, but I think I prefer the benefits of a bike that
actually fits.

On 5/18/20, Clayton Scott <clayt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A few thoughts:
>
> - Completely agree to keep the Hillborne as is. Keep cantis too.

>
> - Short stem and drops: Personally I don't see it as "making it work".
> There are even benefits to it:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 9:35:13 AM UTC-7, Eamon Nordquist wrote:
>>

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>

[Clayton Scott]

Just to be clear, I am not advocating reversing stems, what I am getting at is more along the lines of a 30-50mm stem vs. a 100-120mm stem.

Clayton Scott

HBG, CA

On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 10:58:17 AM UTC-7, Dave Johnston wrote:

There are benefits to one-size-fits all bicycles like Bromptons.  I
suppose there are benefits to reversing your 8cm stem and running a
16cm longer top tube, but I think I prefer the benefits of a bike that
actually fits.

On 5/18/20, Clayton Scott <clay...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A few thoughts:
>
> - Completely agree to keep the Hillborne as is. Keep cantis too.
>
> - Short stem and drops: Personally I don't see it as "making it work".
> There are even benefits to it:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 9:35:13 AM UTC-7, Eamon Nordquist wrote:
>>
>> To each their own, but if that is “making drop bars work”, it’s not for
>> me. I’m not afraid of short stems either. But, hey, it’s all about what
>> works for each individual. I just think the new longer bikes are designed
>>
>> for swept back bars, and if you are near the bottom end of the pbh range
>> for a given size, most folks are going to consider it a compromise or
>> worse
>> to try running drop bars on them.
>>
>> I’m interested to see what the new Hillborne color will be. The
>> black/cream ones were great.
>>
>> Eamon
>> Seattle
>
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[David Johnston]

It is nice that stems and seatposts are now available to make so many
bike frames work for a variety of riders with the huge variety of
handlebars out there. I haven't done it yet but I'd like to try Drops
on my old 1989 Miyata MTB. Maybe I'll become a convert of longer top
tube shorter stem concept.

[Patrick Moore]

How do such short stems affect the handling of the Atlantis? I use stems on my Riv Roads that are short by conventional standards -- 8 cm, and I absolutely insist on drop bars with sufficiently long ramps (but short-hooded Shimano aero levers and not the very long brifter levers), and insist on a bar no higher than level with saddle, so no very short reach bar will do. To make up for a very long top tube with a very short stem and stubby bar sounds rather makeshift, but I am happy to be proved wrong.

Clayton: I was going to ask, "Please elaborate" and then I saw that you did in a subsquent post. My question remains: How does such a short stem and bar affect handling if you like your drop bar relatively low -- again, no more high than level with saddle.

That said, I've converted several long-top-tube "NORBA-type" mountain bikes to drop bars with longish ramps -- Noodle, for example -- using stems with short effective reach; for example, Tioga T-Bone upjutters or a 10 cm Dirt Drop for example to make 58.5 cm tts match the 56.5-57s on my road bikes; these conversions worked well. But I gather that the new Atlantis has a more-than-NORBA-length top tube, and I wonder how well you can really get it to work with a normal-shape drop bar level with or lower than saddle.

And of course there is nothing at all wrong with sweep-back bars, but I wonder how well a frame designed for those will work in the real world with drop bars level with etc.

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Jason Fuller]

For a traditional road bike, such a short stem might be strange but for a more all-road or all-terrain style bike, I think the long TT / short stem combo is great because it gets the front wheel further out in front of you for better stability / less chance of endo, reduces or eliminates toe overlap (I never notice this on the road, but I do on the trail), and it makes more room & better center of gravity for front bags.  I typically run 5cm but wouldn't hesitate to run 3cm.  I am less sure about the zero offset.. maybe with longer reach drop bars. But honestly, what's the difference between running a zero-offset stem with a drop bar vs. a 12cm stem with a bar that sweeps back past the head tube?  

[Patrick Moore]

Perhaps that sort of design works; I don't know, and again, I'd be happy to be educated. But the admittedly short front-center on my Matthews ("road bike for dirt") with 10 cm stem about 1 cm below saddle (versus 8 cm stem and 4 cm below saddle for my road bikes) feels very right with the 60 mm tires (true 60s), at the expense of 2" of toe overlap or more with fenders. (60s for our sand. For firm dirt, I'd choose 42s - to - 50s.) Since this is not a singletrack bike, I don't mind. Point: You don't need a long tt, slack head, short stem, and short bar to have a dirt road bike that handles very well. In search of the best handling and "feel" my stem has morphed from 8cm and 3 cm of spacers* and 17* up to 10 cm and no spacers and 17* down, and I mentally play with the thought of a 110 mm stem. (Note though the severely upsloped top tube and very tall head. Note also that the rear fender line is better than appears in the photo, and that the front fender has since been rotated forward by 3".)

But this thread is about the new Atlantises with longer top tubes, and whether they work with drop bars. I'll be interested to hear from and see examples of the new Atlantises with long top tubes and saddle-level drop bars that handle well. On the other hand, if the new Atlantis is designed exclusively for sweep-back bars, that's fine too.

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 3:08 PM Jason Fuller <jtf.f...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> For a traditional road bike, such a short stem might be strange but for a more all-road or all-terrain style bike, I think the long TT / short stem combo is great because it gets the front wheel further out in front of you for better stability / less chance of endo, reduces or eliminates toe overlap (I never notice this on the road, but I do on the trail), and it makes more room & better center of gravity for front bags.  I typically run 5cm but wouldn't hesitate to run 3cm.  I am less sure about the zero offset.. maybe with longer reach drop bars. But honestly, what's the difference between running a zero-offset stem with a drop bar vs. a 12cm stem with a bar that sweeps back past the head tube?  
>

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--

[Clayton Scott]

Hi Patrick, 

This will all sound a little vague and I am likely not describing it perfectly but here it goes:

To answer the question about how handling changes with shorter stem: Personally I don't think it affects handling much as long as it works within the overall bike bike/rider system.

Rather than absolute component lengths and standardized fit across any bike, I seem to like contact points in a certain place relative to each other and relative to whole bicycle and its intended purpose. If I aimed for the exact absolute position on my Jones plus as my road bike one of the two would likely end up handling terribly. If I were to put a 30mm stem on my road bike but leave everything else as is it would end up feeling cramped. 

The whole bike and rider system has its sweet spots that vary from bike to bike and rider to rider. My Jones has 800mm bars and my hands end up in line with streer tube. bars are higher relative to saddle putting less weight on my hands and allowing me to be well behind the front wheel on steep descents. saddle to bar distance is short enough that it is easy to weight the rear or front wheel by just shifting my body around. I move around a lot on it. My rando bike is more stretched out. I don't shift around as much, bars are lower and hands end up well ahead of the steertube. Cross bike it a bit more compact with bars higher and hoods higher for steeper descents and so on. I am comfortable with a range of different positions across different bikes (within reason) but on each bike I picky about my contact points.

Despite the significant bike to bike differences each bike handles superbly for me and all of them are comfortable for long rides across intended terrain.

Hope this helps some. 

Clayton Scott

HBG, CA

On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 1:41:26 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

How do such short stems affect the handling of the Atlantis? I use stems on my Riv Roads that are short by conventional standards -- 8 cm, and I absolutely insist on drop bars with sufficiently long ramps (but short-hooded Shimano aero levers and not the very long brifter levers), and insist on a bar no higher than level with saddle, so no very short reach bar will do. To make up for a very long top tube with a very short stem and stubby bar sounds rather makeshift, but I am happy to be proved wrong.

Clayton: I was going to ask, "Please elaborate" and then I saw that you did in a subsquent post. My question remains: How does such a short stem and bar affect handling if you like your drop bar relatively low -- again, no more high than level with saddle.

That said, I've converted several long-top-tube "NORBA-type" mountain bikes to drop bars with longish ramps -- Noodle, for example -- using stems with short effective reach; for example, Tioga T-Bone upjutters or a 10 cm Dirt Drop for example to make 58.5 cm tts match the 56.5-57s on my road bikes; these conversions worked well. But I gather that the new Atlantis has a more-than-NORBA-length top tube, and I wonder how well you can really get it to work with a normal-shape drop bar level with or lower than saddle.

And of course there is nothing at all wrong with sweep-back bars, but I wonder how well a frame designed for those will work in the real world with drop bars level with etc.

On Mon, May 18, 2020 at 7:21 AM James / Analog Cycles <analog...@gmail.com> wrote:

New MIT Atlantis frames worth fine with shorter reach drop bars and 30mm or 0mm stems.  No need to size down.  -James / Analog Cycles / Discord Components / Etc etc

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bk8H2AKhPiD/

On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 10:56:07 PM UTC-4, Eamon Nordquist wrote:

The newest MIT Atlantis models do seem to have gotten even longer than the first round. I personally wouldn’t be able to fit dropbars to one without it going a size too small, and having way more stem and seat post than I would be happy with (short stem notwithstanding). I do hope the new Hillbornes haven’t gotten longer. The roster is pretty chock full of long bikes. Could be what others want, though. Who knows?

Eamon
Seattle

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[Joe Bernard]

Patrick: I had a 53cm MIT Atlantis that came to me from Analog Cycles with a 0 stem and flared drops. Later I ran a shorty - maybe it was 50mm - stem with a Jones Loop. Granted I'm not a trail rider and not particularly sensitive to slight differences in road handling, but the frame rode the same to me. You gotta figure if your hands land in generally the same spot, the steerer isn't going to know what part is stem and what part is bar.

[Clayton Scott]

One more observation.

People accept and love handlebars like Bosco, Losco, Jones and Albas. These bars often put your hands behind the steertube/steering axis. But, the same people throw their hands in the air over sub 40mm stems paired with drops that usually (unless you reverse the stem!) place the hands still well ahead of the steertube/steering axis. 

Going from drops to upright bars on the same bike is rarely seen as crazy, but using a 0 offset stem with drops will at least start at least a conversation with most bike people, even though it is a far less extreme change.

Likely emotion/tradition still governs a lot of the component dimension choices. 

Clayton Scott
HBG, CA

[Eamon Nordquist]

Clayton, most people I know, if changing from drops to upright bars on the same bike, would use a longer stem for the uprights. That’s not an emotional decision. For myself, if on a 59 Atlantis with its 64cm top tube, I’m not running anything but upright bars on it. I bet it’s great too, but it’s not an emotional decision that I wouldn’t want drops on that bike, especially my bar if choice - noodles. Maybe bars like the one James from Analog showed, but they are personally an aesthetic and ergonomic abomination to ME. I fully understand many people like them.

Eamon
Seattle

[Drw]

The analog stem is no joke. I run a 30mm one on a MUSA Atlantis that fits me like a glove and fit me like a glove before the short stem. It has improved comfort, and handling especially off road. It’s definitely stiffer than a longish technomic, so maybe that’s the handling improvement I feel.
If you’re ok with a 60mm stem, I don’t quite see how a 30mm stem means your frame doesn’t fit you.
When I got it , I gambled on the analog stem because I mainly wanted a quill 31.8 stem. Was sort of expecting the fit to be weird but i was pleasantly wrong. I actually bought a 50mm crust/nitto 31.8 stem recently and find myself wishing it was shorter.

[Clayton Scott]

Eamon,

What stem length and which upright bars would you run on the 59 Atlantis?

What top tube length and stem length would you need on an Atlantis to run Noodles?

Clayton Scott

HBG, CA

[j.schwartz]

+1 for the shorty stem Analog approach.  Both my Hillborne and Appaloosa have top tubes that are too long for me..I have a 56cm Hillborne and a 55cm Appaloosa. 

I could easily ride a smaller bike in each size...

I also prefer drops...  I used to run the Hillborne with Noodles on a 7cm stem.   I'm now experimenting with an Analog 30mm stem and their 31.8 drops on the Appaloosa.....and I kind of wish I had the 0 offset version.  

[Eamon Nordquist]

Clayton, I'd probably need the zero offset stem to fit noodles on the current 59 Atlantis. Obviously, the 70 degree head angle can get the bars a lot closer, but only by having the bars much higher than I want). Yes, it could be done for me, but only just. The 55 Atlantis, with its 59cm top tube would fit easier, but I would only want that much standover if I was setting it up more like a mountain bike (it'd be great with a dirt drop and wavie bars).

For uprights, it would really depend on which bar I chose. They have such varying amounts of rise, drop, sweep, and forward extension (or lack thereof).

In any case, I'm not arguing that no one can put drops on these and be happy (just not me). I'm saying that it's obvious that they are meant for swept back bars, especially for someone who only just fits the pbh range for their size. There's nothing wrong with that, and if some folks like their short reach bars and ultra short stems, more power to you. There's also nothing wrong with the rest of us.

Eamon

[Fryfam]

My 58cm Fuji TSV had a 56cm top tube. My 58cm Romani a 55.5cm top tube. Best fitting bikes I've owned. Would love to see a Sam with a slightly shorter top tube. I believe there would be interest in such geo given the seemingly (?) growing market for shorty stems... and a 100mm Nitto looks wayyyyyy better than a 60mm imo. The fact that 0mm stems have to exist blows my mind, though I am thankful Analog is producing something people clearly want. my 2 pennies!

[Eamon Nordquist]

Getting back to the original topic, what is the old color being brought back for the new batch if Hillbornes? I would guess by the wording that it’s not a color that was previously used for Hillbornes. There’s been some nice greens in the past - as dark one that some Simple Ones had. That would look great. I’ve seen a copper/cream color on some Homers and Legolas models over the years. Might be my favorite Rivendell color ever. I think the black/cream and sage ones were the best colors the model has come in so far. There’s been a lot of blue and orange variations over the years, but who knows?

Eamon
Seattle

[David Johnston]

that green/ purple color changing color was cool

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[Patrick Moore]

It seems that many riders are very happy with short stems and bars compensating for longer top tubes. I'd have to try such a combination before I paid for one, but it seems there are many different ways to skin a cat -- so to speak. And now I recollect that modern mountain bikes have similar design qualities; interesting that the new Atlantis and Hillborns(?) are following that design trend.

At any rate, the older, short-top-tube / long stem and bar also works impeccably for dirt road; perhaps one differentiating criterion is whether your riding is more road or more singletrack biased?

[j.schwartz]

Root Beer!

[David Johnston]

I think MTB's were steered to long top tube short stem route because
of Fat 29er wheels and long travel suspension. Doesn't mean it doesn't
work well, but it's not unheard of for the bicycle world to sell a
compromise as a feature. Maybe 650b wheels are the better compromise?

I admit to being one of those people a few years back that would
declare a bike too big or too small because of +/-1cm differences in
the top tube and +/-2cm in the seat tube. This attitude was super
common on Ibob a few years ago. Nowadays if I can straddle the top
tube and the stem I need is commonly available then I'm mostly OK with
the design. Custom or limited release stems and I start to think
twice.

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[John Hawrylak]

Same shade of Orange used in the Jeep Sport vehicle.  Not flat, but with some metallic in it to shine..  

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Fryfam]

For those of us with short torsos and long legs, and a strong preference for drop bars, 2cm can make a huge difference in comfort over a 3-4 hr ride

Market interest in custom or limited release stems seems mostly fueled by the overabundance of long TT framesets in a world moving in the direction of uprighteousness, drop bar or not

re: color, would pretty much love any light shade of green

> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

[Joe Bernard]

My impression is it's a previous Sam color. Sage Green wasn't real popular but the Riv crew loved it (me, too)..my guess is they'll give it another run.

[Jason Fuller]

Whether the current Sam is too long, too short, or just right certainly depends on your body type but for me, it's perfect.  I have a 51 that fits me spot on, and I believe strongly that in order to really love a bike, it can't just be close - it needs to fit.  For my 50cm drops I run a 5cm stem, if I ran standard width drops I'd go up to 6 or maybe 7, and with swept bars I'd probably want a 12 or 13cm stem.

And regarding crazy-short stems - to me they are a matched set with the new breed of wide drop bars, and together they make perfect sense.  Apart, and they don't work very well at all. 

Anyways I'm surprised to hear more Sams are coming back before even hearing more about the Charlie H Gallop!  And I'd be very surprised if orange was offered, since the last batch of Sams had the latest & greatest slightly-pearled orange (ie, mine!) 

[Will Ashe]

I'm with Joe. The sage was my favorite Sam color. I think they look great with black bits.

[R Shannon]

Sage is such a versatile color. Much like the gray on Joe’s custom:-)

Best,

Rich in ATL

Sent from my iPhone

On May 19, 2020, at 5:09 PM, Will Ashe <will...@gmail.com> wrote:



I'm with Joe. The sage was my favorite Sam color. I think they look great with black bits.

On Tuesday, May 19, 2020 at 1:14:59 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:

My impression is it's a previous Sam color. Sage Green wasn't real popular but the Riv crew loved it (me, too)..my guess is they'll give it another run.

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[Reid Echols]

The black and cream, for my money :) I’d love a grilver one too, though.

Reid in Austin

[Lyman Labry]

Black for my money.  Elegant.

On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 8:39 PM Reid Echols <reide...@gmail.com> wrote:

The black and cream, for my money :) I’d love a grilver one too, though.

Reid in Austin

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[Surlyprof]

I own the original Hillborne orange (maybe 2009 or ‘10) which is almost pearlescent shifting to shades of gold in the sunlight. I love both the color and fit of that second generation size 56 frame (when they shifted the top tube down to 57.5). That said, I thought the black and cream was one of Riv’s sharpest color schemes. And, if my Sam had a longer chainstay, I think I’d still love it every bit as much or more. I have tried some of those longer chainstay Rivs and there’s something about them that is really appealing.

John
Niles, CA

[Vincent Tamer]

I'm hoping Sam can be my next bike (no less than 5 years from now). I am a Clem owner so I think a Sam would be the perfect compliment. I dig the Black and Cream as well as the Sage!

[dustin schaber]

One of the colors the new Canti Sams will wear is “Joe Bell” Green, aka The Green customs used to be 🤞

[Joel Stern]

What was Joe Bell Green?  

[Eric Norris]

Pretty much the same color as the original Quickbeams. I had a Road Standard painted green, and it matched my 1st Gen QB.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[Michael Cinibulk]

RBW used to call it Coleman stove green.

Mike C
Bellbrook OH

[dustin schaber]

This is the green I have in mind. Speculation 

http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2012/02/custom-rivendell-all-arounder.html

[Evan E.]

Tuxedo Sam (black with cream accents, kind of like a fresh-poured Guinness).

[Michael Baquerizo]

rad red (ish) atmo

to clarify, this isn't the new color. i asked riv to have my new same painted (first riv). looking foward to receiving it and hoping they feature it on the blug blagh instagram email etc, wherever. 

[Mark Roland]

Definitely looks close to the official ATMO red.

[Eric Norris]

Funny you should mention ATMO red. I have a Richard Sachs in the classic red Sachs color scheme, and the paint job is actually pretty interesting.

The red color is what’s called a “candy” in the paint world—a translucent color painted over a base coat of a different color. In this case, the red candy color is on top of a bright white base color.

What happens when the bike is in the sun is that the light goes through the red, bounces off the white and re-emerges back through the red. In person, it’s stunning, like the tubes were lit from within.

I suspect that the Sam Hillbornes are painted in a solid red color. Nice, but not the same.

P.S. Expect to pay around $1,500 for Joe Bell to lay down a paint job like the one on my Sachs. It’s quite difficult and involves numerous layers of paint and lots of hand work. One little mistake anywhere in the process, and it’s ruined.

More about JB (who has painted many custom Ribs): www.JoeBell.net 

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[mbaqu...@gmail.com]

oh, I mean this was painted by Rick Stefani and I gave him the joe bell painted Sachs' photos as a reference. it was a $350 paint job so I'm happy w whatever I get, but per Joe Bell, upon seeing a Rick job he told grant 'well I guess you don't need me anymore'

also - not sure what red your Sachs is but there have been several different reds used throughout the years / seasons. I didn't want candy paint for sure, I'm hoping this is closer to a pearl. remember it's also not a stock paint job ala any of the production Sam's. this was originally an orange sam that I was able to get on discount from Riv because the paint was marred somewhere. I took the discount as an opportunity to get a riv in the color that I wanted for a price pretty close to retail. 

On Jul 16, 2020, at 11:40 AM, 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Funny you should mention ATMO red. I have a Richard Sachs in the classic red Sachs color scheme, and the paint job is actually pretty interesting.

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