Roadini Shifting Problems

[Catherina Gioino]

Hi RBW group!

My name’s Cat and I posted a few months ago about an earlier iteration of the same problem I’m still having: my Roadini has had trouble shifting both front and rear since I first acquired it over a year ago. I purchased it from the original owner, who had built it up with nice Campy components-- some pictures of the initial setup and the current configuration are below.

It’s set up 2x8, and at first, the front would barely shift to the small ring at all (often not at all), and the chain would pretty frequently jump off if I even lightly overshifted. Then, the rear wheel (Velocity A23) developed a series of large cracks on the rim.

My partner and his dad (who both have Rivs and got me into this mess, haha) tried to fix the problems by first adjusting the limit screws, and when that only made things worse and we discovered the cracked rim, we put on a Shimano cassette, replaced the wheelset with a Shimano-compatible set of A23s, and replaced the chain, on the theory that the original chain was too narrow for the original Campy cassette, letting it slip between the rings. This marginally helped, but still didn’t solve the issues, so then I had my local bike shop put in a wider bottom bracket, because they noticed that the front crank was essentially scraping the front derailleur and couldn’t be adjusted any further— they suggested the bottom bracket replacement.

This didn’t work because on my first real ride post the fixes, (on the OCA coming back from the Tappan Zee for that guy on a Homer who waved!) the front derailleur cage snapped. I was able to ride home, but now I need to at minimum replace my front derailleur, and while I’m at it, would like to fix the larger problems— the rear and front shifting. I love my bike, and tend to ride through issues, but it would be great to be able to shift properly. I’m wondering:

1) If anyone has any general or specific advice given what I’ve detailed, or any questions that might help diagnose the problem

2) If anyone in New York would be willing to come take a look at it and try to help figure out the problem— it could be a fun project, and I’m happy to provide refreshments :)

3) If I do need to switch the entire drivetrain, should I move to a 1x so I don’t run into more front derailleur problems? I tend to ride mostly in my higher gears anyway, so I could just move to a 1x with a wider-range cassette and stick with my 44 in front. I know 1x can come with its own issues, but this might be easier

4) I’m Italian, and so I have a slight but unavoidable aesthetic preference for sticking with Campy parts; does anyone have thoughts about how I might do this, or should I give up and switch to more standard Shimano or SRAM, which won’t look as nice but might function better

Thanks so much for reading and for any help or advice! I’m kind of at a loss, and would love to ride my beloved Leo without worrying about whether my front derailleur will blow up again.

Cat

[Patrick Moore]

Catharina: Without seeing your drivetrain more clearly I can't offer anything of great insight, but the following FWIW:

1. The technology required by 2X8 drivetrains is so mature now that they are almost as durable and reliable as single speeds, at least if you are using friction shifting. If properly set up, just about any FD can shift from big to small ring without throwing the chain over either ring. I see that your bike has a Shimano cassette and Veloce RD; I take it that you shift in friction? 

And I surmise that your FD broke because it got caught by the right crankarm while you were pedaling hard?

Front derailleur setup can be a bit finicky, but it's not rocket science and I'd take care to have the FD just ~1/4" above the big ring and to play with the lateral angle of the cage by adjusting the clamp as it rotates around the seat tube until the cage is perfectly aligned fore-and-aft with the chain/chainring. Even a wee bit off-angle can cause shifting worries. All this after getting the proper bb spindle length* and adjusting the limit screws properly. *The bb spindle length should be chosen for proper chain line -- chain on big ring straight to #4 cog, chain on small ring straight to #5 cog -- while giving the minimum sufficient gaps between chainrings and right chainstay. All this done, any crank from the last 40 years ought to clear any FD from the last 40 years.

Unless you are using a modern FD with wide, shaped cage with a 1970s Record crank? I can't tell from the photo what the crank and FD are, but the crank looks to be an old one without arm flare ... if so, it might not clear a modern wide-cage mtb FD even with proper setup and properly sized bb spindle; in which case -- assuming you don't want to swap the crank for a modern flared-arm style -- you need a narrow cage FD; any road FD ought to work fine, especially since you have only 8 cogs in back.

I would not use bb spindle length to adjust FD cage contact with the crank arm and I'm surprised that a professional bike shop would do that. Choose the bb spindle length to put the rings into proper alignment with #4 and #5 cogs and allow 2-3 mm minimum clearance against the chainstay, and any modern crank ought to clear any modern (last 40 years) straight cage FD cage just fine. There are some exceptions where there is not enough gap between outer/big chainring and inside of right crankarm for modern FD cages, but AFAIK that has never happened with any Campy FD or any crank, Campy or otherwise, from the last 50 years.

2. Viva Italia! (Not referring to the political party.) My daughter spent her junior year abroad in Florence and shared many photos and experiences with me, which I heartily enjoyed. But 8-speed Shimano Dura Ace is pretty darned pretty!

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Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[Joe Bernard]

I agree with Patrick that your Veloce FD didn't like the vintage-ish cranks you're using. The rear shifting (I remember you're using Silver friction bar-ends) should be fine with that 8-speed cassette and an 8- or 9-speed chain. 

1x would probably work for the kind of gearing you like but yes, you'd be swapping everything and most of that stuff is waaaay uglier than your Campy bits. I don't know enough about all that to give recommendations. 

[Garth]

Well good for you Cat for wanting to stick with Campy parts :)))   I too have an affinity for Italian bike parts and cycling clothing especially. 

Do check the rear derailleur hanger alignment for rear shifting issues. Seeing this was a used frame, hangers can easily get wacked if moved around in tight places. 

Along the lines of what Patrick and Michael well expressed, I do remember on Campy Nuovo/Super Record straight arm cranks that the FD relation to the arms is a delicate and close one by design. It appears what's needed is either a fine tuning/adjustment vertically/horizontally of the existing FD, or if it's still hitting the crank, try a vintage Campy. Looking the pic of FD on your bike I can see the cage has quite a contour to the inner plate. The vintage ones had no such contour.  I have two Nuovo/Record models plus a Victory, and they all are of the era where the crank arms were straight and clearances tight. These can found NOS or lightly used on places like ebay and such. Even the Victory model shifts great. I measured the inner plate width on all three of my Campy FD's and they measure about 11mm in the middle. I have a couple 105 FD from 1999 that measure 12mm inside but the overall cage width is much wider as the inner cage has substantial lip to it sticking out, whereas the Campy are very slight. I also have a vintage "endless band" Suntour Superbe Pro FD from the mid 80's that measures 10mm inside, and the cage is shorter in length than any other FD's of that era. I know those would work since with the narrow and short cage, you have less concern with the tail of the FD hitting anything. With an 8-speed hub you may have to trim the FD more as the chain angle in the first/large cassette cog is greater than with a 7-speed. No big deal. 

A 1x drivetrain doesn't solve anything, it just "shifts... hah hah" ... the blame... so to speak. Don't give up so easy !!! It'll work ! 

[Bill Lindsay]

It's clear to me that your bike needs to spend some time in the stand with a good mechanic -AND- with a good build-curator.  It would be nice if both those people were the same person, but the skillsets are definitely distinct from one-another.  A good mechanic can get the best out of what you have.  A good build-curator can see the mistakes previously made in a build, and will know what needs to be discarded and kept to get you to a better build configuration.  

The lousy front shifting seems to me that a poor choice was made with the combination of the crankset, front shifter, front derailleur and chain.  One or more of those parts were a poor choice.  That whole combo needs to be rethought, especially since your front derailleur is toast.  

2x8 seems to be a mistake as well, given that the rear derailleur in the photo is not an 8sp rear derailleur.  That should be rethought also

I worry that your replacement Shimano wheel set on a Campy bike was also a step in the wrong direction.  

The entire build needs a rethink, IMO.  My guess is that the initial build was executed on a faulty build concept.  Hopefully you can keep most of what's there, but the whole build concept needs a reboot, IMO.  Build concepts are free, thankfully.  Executing a build is usually not free (but sometimes it is!).

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Wesley]

Hi Cat,

Sorry to hear about your frustrations. The last time this happened to me, I futzed with it for too long before giving up and replacing the cassette, chain rings, and chain all together. That solved it. Just for the record: you have replaced the cracked rim, yes?

As for 1x, in my opinion you should keep the front derailer. Maybe just don't shift the front for a while (until you're satisfied that everything is working properly at the back).

-Wes

On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 7:04:57 PM UTC-7 Catherina Gioino wrote:

[Stephen]

Hi Cat, whereabouts new york are you? I'm in Brooklyn and would be down to help troubleshoot. I'm by no means a professional, but have done lots of futzing with my friction drivetrains and solving odd problems. 

-Stephen

[Eric Marth]

Hi Cat — I'm so sorry to hear about these problems! I know how frustrating it can be when problems compound, like with your cracked rims and now the trouble with shifting!

I took a look at your older post about the Roadini and gleaned a few things about your setup as well as another view of the crank and FD. 

• Silver 1 bar-end shifters in friction
• Campagnolo Veloco front and rear derailers
• Stronglight cranks — What's the gearing? You mentioned 44 large ring, is the small ring something like a 30? 
• Shimano eight-speed cassette 

It seems to me your components should work together. As Garth points out some road cranks are designed for a tight tolerance between the deariler cage and the crank arm, so the Veloce might have had too much protrusion for your particular crank. It's too bad the shop suggested a different bottom bracket to reconcile a problem with the front derailer and the crank, that clearly didn't work out! 

But I'm surprised that svelte front derailer won't cooperate with the crank. It's not big and chunky. Front derailers like yours work better with old road doubles than front mechs with taller cages or funky cable routing. I've found sometimes you have to set the front derailer much higher than what seems "correct" to get good shifting. Since your Veloce FD is trashed and you're partial to Campy stuff perhaps you could seek out an older Campy front derailer, something like a Nuovo Record from the same era as those Stronglight cranks. There are some on eBay for less than $50. 

You mention that sometimes the front derailer wouldn't shift at all. Are there certain instances of where the chain is on the rear cassette, your riding conditions or terrain when you have trouble shifting? Shifting a front derailer in friction can be a little tricky when pedaling under load going up a hill. I run a compact double on my Hillborne, SunXCD 42/26, Silver bar-ends in friction, Suntour Cyclone FD. On steep climbs when I need more gears and have to drop down to the small ring up front it doesn't want to shift with the chain under load. I have to unweight the pedals, spin lightly, maintain balance on the grade and drop that chain. 

Best of luck to you, Cat! I'm sure you can get this sorted out and you'll be enjoying the Roadini soon as nice weather arrives in New York.

Eric