steps to mount a tire / tubeless is easy?

[ted]

Someone I won't name, because he should be gratefully honored for his contributions and definitely never hectored about such trivia, wrote he could think of at least 11 steps to mounting a tube in a tire off the top of his head.

I only think of 10.

   Put a layer of rim tape on the rim

   Put one bead of the tire on the rim down in the well

   Put talc on the tube or the inside surface of the tire.

   Put just enough air in the tube to give it some shape

   Put the tube inside the tire and around the rim (with the valve through the hole of course)

   Push the other bead of the tire onto the rim and down into the well

   Make sure the tube isn't stuck under a tire bead anyplace

   Inflate to seat the beads

   Make sure the beads are seated

   Reduce pressure to what you ride

What am I missing?

Now for tubeless its (assuming no difficulties/hiccups)

   Put n layers of tubeless rim tape on the rim

   Install the valve stem, pull the core

   Slather soapy water al over the place

   Put the tire on the rim

   Use a compressor to blow air through the valve body to seat the tire (may spray soapy water about doing this)

   Put sealant in through the valve

   Put the valve core back in

   Inflate the tire (may have sealant spraying about doing this)

   Check that sealant isn't coming out around the bead

   Spin the wheel a few times

   Let it sit overnight (reminds me of gluing tubulars)

   Re-inflate to riding pressure because it probably got soft overnight

Now I'll agree that that doesn't sound too bad, only a dozen steps. I also agree that anyone who works on stuff, and has a shop or a garage, should get a compressor. Well worth the investment (can you say air tools, fun). But with the potential for spraying soapy water and/or sealant about, and the risk of significant difficulty seating/sealing the beads etc, I don't see how an honest appraisal can really conclude its not significantly more trouble than installing tires with tubes. Kinda like gluing tubulars. Now I can't quote anybody saying tubeless setup is trivial and as easy as using tubes, but I feel like some proponents sort of imply something close to that. Am I wrong?

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

I don't use the soapy water, mounted a tubeless tire the other night without a single drop dripped. Not that it's easier than tubes, but it's not telemetry data.
-Kai

[Deacon Patrick]

I'd add: hassle of a field flat with latex goop and tube (unless hauling a compressor). I've dealt with goop in a tube and that was bad enough for me. But I only get 2-4 flats a year.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

" Now I can't quote anybody saying tubeless setup is trivial and as easy as using tubes, but I feel like some proponents sort of imply something close to that. Am I wrong?"

You're implying that "proponents" are implying this with no quotes to back up your implication. What *I* got from James' tutorial was if you want to go tubeless, there's an initial setup you can learn which then shouldn't hardly ever be repeated because you won't be removing tires to fix a flat. And he did it with a floor pump.

I don't think anyone has to accept it as The Only Way, but it sure appeals to me now that I feel I understand it.

[James / Analog Cycles]

Both lists are missing rim prep, which is a few steps, but none of this is about numbers, really.  

Watch that tutorial, it can be really mess or it can be really clean.  I'd say on the whole, cleaning your chain is messier than setting up tubeless, and you have to do it about 52 times more often, if you are going thru a set of tires in a year.  104 times more often if you are going thru tires every two years.  

I've fixed flats with tubes in pouring rain, covered in mud filled with mica, and put the new tube in and had it immediately flat.  When your tire is filled with mud, there is no way to clean it out in the field.  I've had to fix flats in heavily mosquito infested areas, which, even for a fast tube changes (I've been a bike shop nerd since I was 15 and I'm 38 now... probably have changed a few thousand tubes), means you are gunna get covered in bites.  With tubeless you probably wouldn't get the flat in the first place, but if you did, you could plug it with out even getting your hands dirty.  You don't even take the wheel off.  On one trip in relatively recent memory, I was riding RTP tires on some bad roads and ripped a 2 inch hole in the sidewall.  Fixed it without wheel removal.  A few minutes later, a 1 inch rip, again fixed without wheel removal.  Then a big sharp rock took a chunk out of the tread.  Plugged it.  No tire removal.  Sure there was some sealant around, but sealant is easier to get off your hands than black chain oil any day.  

Having worked in shops at this point longer than I have not worked in shops, I've seen the best mechanics accidentally puncture a tube before it's even inflated, or have the tire not seat properly and blow the tire off the rim, often leading to completely trashed tires as the casing blows off the bead.  

No system is perfect, that's for sure.  I wish tubeless didn't use a goo, but I'd rather deal with the goo and the ease of fixing flats than a bunch of tubes any day.  For the record, up until about 5 years ago, I was staunchly anti tubeless.  I had to prove it's utility with a bunch of tests before I adopted it.  

I do that with every new technology that our shop adopts.  Be it 1x, disc brakes, tubeless.  It goes through a vetting process.  Not everything makes it.  Hydraulic brakes don't have me convinced.  Electric shifting certainly doesn't.  I built a really nice front suspension bike last summer, it was so boring to ride that I have parted it out already.  

Certain new things are actually empirically better than old things.  That doesn't mean you have to adopt them or like them.  I love my wood stove.  But after going a year with out refridgeration and using a cold spring to keep things cool, I can say I'm stoked on my DC solar powered fridge.  I love film cameras, but what I really like is the quality of their lenses.  So I put 60 year old lenses on my Sony Digital camera.  Point is, it's ok to be on different sides of an issue, but I think it's important to know why you are on that side.  My job as a bike builder is to make sure people have the easiest to maintain and most reliable bike possible.  Extensive field testing has shown me that 99% of tubeless flats can be fixed without a tube, faster, and easier than with a tube.  To me that's a win for my customers.  Add in the lighter weight, lower tire pressures and ability to run softer tubes, and you have a recipe for a good idea.  

By the way, soapy water spraying around is the only time my shop gets such a luxury...

-james

[Tom Horton]

all this tubeless talk, fascinating, but cannot resist putting in my two cents for the Luddite end of the spectrum. I have equipped my big ole MIT atlantis with big ole heavy schwalbe marathon plus mtb tires, 2.25 inches, and have spent months happily, flatlessly riding briary, brushy woodland trails. I live in level country, and I'm certain that if I were to set up tubeless I'd see a difference. but I'm happy enough with the schwalbes (which just put 5 mm of latex under the tread, not rocket science), that I plan to take the atlantis on a d.c. to pittsburgh ride this summer.  to keep things in perspective, I've made my living writing since 1972 and continue to do it all with my 1984 DOS word processor (thank god for usb floppy drives!).

tom h

On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 10:29:15 PM UTC-4, ted wrote:

[James / Analog Cycles]

Tom, you could ride around on granite tires and be fine.  You're super fit and probably think stumps make good pillows!  

I hope to see you this summer, I'll start carving some new tires for you.

-james

[ted]

I'm going to cherry pick some things out of here

     "... it can be really mess or it can be really clean."

This sort of comment doesn't really say much. What's typical, what's the probability of it being "really clean", what's the probability of it being "really mess"? Are there particular tire / rim combinations that make one or the other extreme more likely? These are things inquiring minds want to know.

    "Certain new things are actually empirically better than old things.  That doesn't mean you have to adopt them or like them. ... Point is, it's ok to be on different sides of an issue, but I think it's important to know why you are on that side."

Which I might paraphrase as:

  the Truth (with a capital t)  is tubeless is objectively better, of course you can keep doing things the worse way, but you ought to know why you are rejecting proven progress.

Baaa. With most things bicycle "Better" is situational and dependent on the desires and proclivities of the rider. The conditions one rides in, how much one objects to roadside tube repairs, and how much one dislikes latex goo related messes are all factors that reasonably impact the determination of what is "better" by/for an individual rider.

   "... up until about 5 years ago, I was staunchly anti tubeless.  I had to prove it's utility with a bunch of tests before I adopted it."

I think there's a line in a Frank Zapa song that goes something like "he used to drop acid and now he loves god, but he's still got the same look in his eye"

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 6:35:49 AM UTC-7, James / Analog Cycles wrote:

Both lists are missing rim prep, which is a few steps, but none of this is about numbers, really.  

Watch that tutorial, it can be really mess or it can be really clean.  I'd say on the whole, cleaning your chain is messier than setting up tubeless, and you have to do it about 52 times more often, if you are going thru a set of tires in a year.  104 times more often if you are going thru tires every two years.  

I've fixed flats with tubes in pouring rain, covered in mud filled with mica, and put the new tube in and had it immediately flat.  When your tire is filled with mud, there is no way to clean it out in the field.  I've had to fix flats in heavily mosquito infested areas, which, even for a fast tube changes (I've been a bike shop nerd since I was 15 and I'm 38 now... probably have changed a few thousand tubes), means you are gunna get covered in bites.  With tubeless you probably wouldn't get the flat in the first place, but if you did, you could plug it with out even getting your hands dirty.  You don't even take the wheel off.  On one trip in relatively recent memory, I was riding RTP tires on some bad roads and ripped a 2 inch hole in the sidewall.  Fixed it without wheel removal.  A few minutes later, a 1 inch rip, again fixed without wheel removal.  Then a big sharp rock took a chunk out of the tread.  Plugged it.  No tire removal.  Sure there was some sealant around, but sealant is easier to get off your hands than black chain oil any day.  

Having worked in shops at this point longer than I have not worked in shops, I've seen the best mechanics accidentally puncture a tube before it's even inflated, or have the tire not seat properly and blow the tire off the rim, often leading to completely trashed tires as the casing blows off the bead.  

No system is perfect, that's for sure.  I wish tubeless didn't use a goo, but I'd rather deal with the goo and the ease of fixing flats than a bunch of tubes any day.  For the record, up until about 5 years ago, I was staunchly anti tubeless.  I had to prove it's utility with a bunch of tests before I adopted it.  

I do that with every new technology that our shop adopts.  Be it 1x, disc brakes, tubeless.  It goes through a vetting process.  Not everything makes it.  Hydraulic brakes don't have me convinced.  Electric shifting certainly doesn't.  I built a really nice front suspension bike last summer, it was so boring to ride that I have parted it out already.  

Certain new things are actually empirically better than old things.  That doesn't mean you have to adopt them or like them.  I love my wood stove.  But after going a year with out refridgeration and using a cold spring to keep things cool, I can say I'm stoked on my DC solar powered fridge.  I love film cameras, but what I really like is the quality of their lenses.  So I put 60 year old lenses on my Sony Digital camera.     My job as a bike builder is to make sure people have the easiest to maintain and most reliable bike possible.  Extensive field testing has shown me that 99% of tubeless flats can be fixed without a tube, faster, and easier than with a tube.  To me that's a win for my customers.  Add in the lighter weight, lower tire pressures and ability to run softer tubes, and you have a recipe for a good idea.  

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I’m struggling to understand the reason this thread was started. Is this an honest exploration into tubeless vs tubes? Is this helping weigh the risks/rewards of tubeless/tubed? I want to err on the side of charitable towards my fellow man, but I’ve read the original post several times and it comes off as...quarrelsome. So, I must be reading this wrong because the OP has appeared several times on the List and is a nice guy.

Far be it from us to ever argue about bicycles or components. If you don’t like tubeless, you get to stick with tubes. Analog Cycles favors tubeless, just like Rivendell favors steel and wool and Specialized favors carbon and electronic shifting. It’s what they like, it’s what they do, and it’s not a dig at anyone else. James presented a compelling viewpoint on why he favors tubeless, supported by a lot of Real World Experience. The Instagram video showed the whole process in steps, and even I understood it. There was no mess and a floor pump worked fine. Because of that, I’m willing to try it. Just like I was willing to try steel/upright/friction after Rivendell so eloquently gave their reasoning via their website/Blug. Cherry picking gets mean real fast, and it’s pretty easy for both sides to do it. But, if it’s an unbiased opinion you’re looking for, I’ll offer you mine when I try tubeless. I can think of no better candidate than me, with utter lack of mechanical skills and distaste for getting my hands dirty. Though I WILL say that I proudly own an air compressor THAT I WENT TO SEARS AND BOUGHT MYSELF and I love the thing.

[Deacon Patrick]

I didn't read this as a contentious post at all, but as rather similar to my own ruminations puzzling out if/why to go tubeless. For me the goop thing is huge in the field. For others, no biggie. Now, if goat heads were a bigger issue for me? That would change the result of the equation, as goop is preferable to multiple flats/day. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

FWIW, Jan Heine, who certainly knows tires (but not goatheads!!) prefers tubes. I don't know that he's right in saying that the "sloshing" of sealant will slow the wheel; not in my experience; but sealant certainly will add as much weight as a tube. I just patched a tube with sealant (yup, ya can't avoid patches even with sealant, just slow them way down) and the tube, which weighed 60 grams new is 123 grams with 1  or 1.5 fl oz of OS regular (I use half the amounts recommended; 2 fl oz in 700C X 60s, 1 fl oz in 28s). Note again that I've had to patch more tubes this past year or so after switching to the OS edurance formula; have just started back -- for tubes -- with the regular, full-fat formula.

That said, 2 more things:

1. Yes, sealant is a messy pain in the ass, when things go wrong. Far less of a pain than fixing flats every 20 miles, and far less of a pain of riding 900 gram Big Apples* with 250 gram tubes instead of 450 gram Big Ones and 2 fl oz of sealant.

2. In my limited experience, tubeless tires seem to roll with less resistance than the same tires with tubes, the "sloshing" of sealant notwithstanding.

Me, if I could ride paper-light tires with paper-light tubes, that's what I'd choose, like Jan. But again, goatheads.

And I agree; if you don't like one, choose the other. But each has its advantages and each has its drawbacks; neither is miraculous.

* Big Apples (I used the "Lite" 800 gram model) were almost thorn proof on dirt, and pretty resistant on pavement, but still more flats than Big Ones with OS, and the BOs ride like fast racing tires on pavement, and I am not exaggerating (tho' the BAs weren't bad for such heavy tires).

Patrick Moore, who plans before he dies to try tubulars (on the Libertas) with Orange Seal, in ABQ, NM

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Joe Bernard]

I said: "I don't think anyone has to accept it as The Only Way, but it sure appeals to me now that I feel I understand it."

Update because I'm feeling less diplomatic today: Tubeless is better, everyone should use it. Also friction shifting the rear is stupid. Have a nice day 🙋‍♂️

[ted]

Shouldn’t that emoji have a one finger salute?

[Bill Lindsay]

Nice!  I like un-diplomatic Joe.  

I'll play too:

For the same reason that friction shifting in the rear is stupid, lace up shoes are stupid.  

Friction shifting in the rear = easy

Index shifting in the rear = more easy

Tying my shoes = easy

Slipping on my shoes = more easy

Ergo..therefore..henceforth... friction shifting in the rear and lace up shoes are both stupid.  

don't @ me

Bill "I do it the stupid way" Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Abcyclehank]

As long as each of you find a way to mount tires that satisfy your needs......Just ride! TETO!

Is anyone will to propose riding tubeless rear and tubes in front 🤔?

Ryan” riding both in snowflake flying WM” Hankinson
West Michigan

[Joe Bernard]

Be tough, ride tireless.

[Leah Peterson]

Be REALLY tough. Ride with tires AND flats .

[Joe Bernard]

😂👍

[hobie]

Tannus tire inserts are great for flat free riding w. tubes. A normal floor pump works,no compressor needed to go tubeless. It helps if your tire and rim are TLR. One layer of rim tape. Remove valve core,seat the tire,then with soapy water around both sides where the rim and tire meet lather it up. Then roll the tire on the floor back and forth. Then w. valve core in 12 O'clock postion attach pump and start pumping fast while slightly pressing the tire and rim down. Has worked for me the past couple of years. It's not that difficult. There aren't many tubeless rims on the market for rim brakes. I will never go back to tubes. 

On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 10:29:15 PM UTC-4, ted wrote:

[Roberta]

About 25 years ago, I go so many flats and hated it!  So, I just bought solid core tires.  No flats!  The worst ride EVER! 

Next pair of tires had a Kevlar insert in them.  Much better.  I've always stressed the no flat, no matter how bad the ride tires.  I'm glad to try a better ride, too, with tubeless.

Roberta

[DHans]

Wow, this thread has been bringing the fightin' side of folks. Or is the extended social distancing that is grating on nerves??? I've never tried tubeless but am up for trying it soon.

Doug

[Joe Bernard]

"Wow, this thread has been bringing the fightin' side of folks."

CARBON FORKS ARE STUPID! Sorry, wrong thread 😬

[hobie]

Tubeless is basically set it and forget it. If I was traveling by bike around the world I would use tubes only because I doubt you can get Stans in some remote village in Vietnam. The less I have to think about my bike the better. A maintence free bike is the way to go for me. It I had the $ I would assemble a bike w. a Pinion drive w. Gates Belt, titanium frame w a Lauf Grit fork. Almost maintence free. A very Green bike. 

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 7:58:41 PM UTC-4, Roberta wrote: