Riv default 113 BB, Tange headset

[J-D Bamford]

I learned from Roman at Riv that they now have 113mm BBs (actually measures 114mm with my digital calipers) installed by their Taiwanese framebuilder, along with the headsets. I learned this when inquiring about my frame-only 2024 Lugged Roadini. They will not swap (or exchange) a different BB at no cost... you just have to buy a different one if you need a different spindle length. Perhaps this assembly spec affects other frames as well.

Although their cranks (and other brands) largely spec 110mm BB spindle for a double, Riv's heavily pushing "skeleton key" front derailleurs that require a 113mm BB spindle. So keep this in mind if you're ordering a frame-only. I'll be ordering a 108mm BB to swap in, to tighten up q-factor and hopefully improve upshifting on my Rene Herse double crank (10sp with Ultegra chain, per RH suggestion). The BB swap is a minor inconvenience, minor delay in my planned build schedule this month.

Probably good news for many that their framebuilder does the Tange headset installation. I wasn't too fazed doing the Tange install myself on a Roaduno, but when I looked up Tange's threaded headset assembly diagram it didn't even show all the parts (including ring gaskets whose up/down orientation is important). I'm pretty sure I got that assembly right... LOL... it feels OK when I ride/steer :-)

[Max S]

Y’all may want to have a closer look at those BBs and HS… I wanted to swap in different BB and HS on mine, and noticed there wasn’t much in the way of grease on the BB threads or the head tube. Easily fixed, and maybe doesn’t matter too much, but I do worry about things seizing up after prolonged use. 

- Max “why did it take me so long to buy headset tools?..” in A2

[Dan]

I think this is a good change. I literally had to have the 110bb on my (non-lugged) Roadini swapped out for a 113 yesterday because the 110 meant the front derailleur was rubbing the chain in the small ring. 

[J-D Bamford]

Dan - what crank and front D are you using? 

[Daniel Grilli]

Hi J-D,

Crank is the Spacycles TD-2 Super Compact Double.

FD is Microshift Sword 2x.

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[J-D Bamford]

Well... the SpaCycles UC Double is based on a triple chainline, and their website says you should be using a 119mm BB spindle. That's all fine, but it's not a typical use case.

I'm just pointing out to the community that for the majority, who are using a double crank intended for a double chainline, that Riv's included BB runs a wide of that chainline. And that BB doesn't even match Riv's Silver-branded double let alone other typical double specs on the market. That BB is only chosen to mate well with their "skeleton key" front derailleur, which also doesn't seem optimized for typical double cranks (nor theirs).

Riv admits on their website that they're spec'ing as many Microshift items as possible to gain favor with that vendor (to further encourage their collab on a Silver-branded Microshift drivetrain). The BB spec is a loopy business decision where the average user is getting a BB that won't give optimum alignment, and the user can't request an alternative BB (i.e. swap at no cost). I'm less concerned from a cost perspective (since the BBs they sell are affordable), but it affects a person's build parts list and timeline. It's a setup for surprising a lot of people with a mismatch.

[Bill Lindsay]

Let's list all the cranks for which 113mm is the perfect length.  I'll start:

White Industries VBC 2x

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[John Rinker]

After reading through these comments I realize that I lack the understanding of how one would calculate the proper BB length for a particular crank- say, an XT M737 triple on my Hunqapillar? I've got a 113 on there now, but only because that's what came with the bike when it had the Sugino XD triple. It seems to work just fine.

At this point in my understanding, calculating such sounds like a mix of esoterica and wizardry. 

Cheers, John

[Brent Eastman]

sugino XD2 triple fit sooooooo snug. One more mm and drive side would rub the bb cup.

On Monday, January 27, 2025 at 9:09:32 AM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote:

[Steven Sweedler]

John, I have had the 737 crankset on many bikes and always used a Shimano UNxx 103 with no rubbing. I am sure there are exceptions. 

Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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[J-D Bamford]

John,

If you’re already running the crank, it shifts to your satisfaction, and your stance (q-factor) is comfortable, then it’s not something you need to solve. But should you migrate the kit from your old frame to a new one that comes with a BB pre-installed, then you might want to anticipate if the new BB is a different spindle length, whether the chainstays might be more or less curved (thus affecting crank arm clearance which can be adjusted by BB length), and factors like that. 

Some riders prefer a narrow stance, therefore shorter-than-average BB spindle length (but long enough to physically avoid rubbing/hitting the frame). If Riv’s supplying frames pre-installed with BB (and headset), and their BB and recommended front derailleur are both dimensioned optimally for a triple crank, but many of their buyers intend to run a double crank, then some portion of those riders might find that Riv’s default parts don’t match the rider’s picky (that includes me) setup prefs. Many others won’t notice or care to notice these nuances and as long as it works well enough, they’ll be happy.

Each make/model crank’s recommended BB spindle length are published by the manufacturer/seller, or are very commonly tabulated by users in forums. There are online guides on measuring the chainline on your installed crank, and published chainline recommendations for different drivetrains (e.g. Shimano 9, 10, 11…). Again nothing to solve if you’re already running the kit and it’s to your satisfaction.

[John Rinker]

Hey John,

Yes, my current setup- XT M737 and 113BB- is just fine, and I have no reason to change it. I was just curious about the process for arriving at the proper BB length.

Cheers, John

[Michael Connors]

Sheldon Brown created this article that includes many cranksets from 1990-2005. Yours is in there.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html

[brendonoid]

The real fun with square taper cranksets is that depending on its previous usage/owners they can not give you advertised chainline no matter how good your research is.

Some people really like to bottom out that taper!

[Steve]

John,  to suggest an answer to your question --- What I have done in the past is to initially mount the crankset up with what ever BB I happen to have at hand,  then check the chainline and add or subtract the distance it is  off from my desired CL. Assuming a symmetrical BB spindle, the needed width =  +/- value x 2 + the test spindle width. (As a rough reference the distance between cogs on a cassette is close to 4mm).  

Steve in AVL

[Garth]

Fitting a bb for a given crank is to me, like doing plumbing in your house. It's ever a custom job as no two spaces are ever the same. Likewise, same with frames, not only varying from brand to brand and model to model, but even a given model. Just because a given object is marked with branding(I can't help but think how ranchers brand their cattle), doesn't mean they are exactly the same. Nothing is ever the same, twice ! Ever ! 

That said, I keep on hand Shimano/Tange-like cartrdiges from 107 to 118 at hand, and lots of cup spacers, from .5mm to 2mm, for chainline tuning.(Placed between the driveside shell and the lip of the cup). You can't do that with cup and cones, for those that aren't familiar with them. Cartrdiges are complete units, non-adjustable. The non-driveside cup is there for support only, so it can be moved laterally, given it has no lip of course. 

What does it matter how far or near the chainrings are from the frame ? That's a legit question for non-mechanics ! Too near and the rings would rub against the frame, too far and the front derailleur wouldn't be able to reach the outer ring. So in betweeen is room for much negotiation. In theory, the middle of the cranks chanrings, be it 1,2 or 3, is supposed to match the middle of the number of rear cassette/freewheel cogs. That's a good starting point, but it's not a must, especially if the rider knows what rings and cogs they ride mostly in, or want access to. So it's okay to have the chainline a little to the inside or outside of middle in that case.

Again, assuming one does not know anything about bikes, with 2 or 3 rings, it's not necessary to be able to shift into every cassette cog from every ring. With a single ring you have no choice, and while in the smallest or largest cog of the cassette is can get noisy from the friction of the angles, as long as the chain stays put it's not the end of the world. With a 3 ring setup it's not necessary or a good thing to be able to ride in every cog. I myself have never used more than 3 cogs in the tiny 24/26t ring, otherwise it's back on the middle ring. The middle can generally be used for all cogs, though the ends may be iffy, depending on the setup. In the outer ring generally all but one ot two of the largest cogs. Again, that depends on the setup of a given bike ! Think of "custom/DIY" work as "local", pertaining to your locale, your home, your bike, and "you" ! 

In regards to BB's, do inquire the specs of a given unit as some are offset(one side extends further than the other), some are equidistant. For example a Tange/Shimano 107 and 110/11 have the same driveside length, the difference is all the non-driveside. 

If you buy a frame alone and it comes with BB installed, surely you're not obliged to use it !  Same with the Kalloy seatpost. Keep them as parts if they aren't if want/need something else.