Bike Fitting

[Stephen Durfee]

I'm curious about the collective opinion regarding professional bike fitting, and pose these questions as one who has been riding for 50+ years on mostly drop bar road bikes, without ever having been "fitted"...  I'm not particularly interested in increased performance, although I'd be happy to ride faster/stronger in some situations - mostly, I'm concerned with comfort. I'm used to, and have generally learned to live with certain aches and pains after a good long ride, a sore back or neck for instance... sore butt is not uncommon either. I follow the conventional rules for set-up (ie, choose frame and saddle height based on PBH) and I tinker/ swap/exchange parts for the fun of it, but haven't ever really experienced an "aha" moment when it comes to comfort/fit!   

I enjoy following threads regarding saddle choice and positioning, woolen underwear vs. padded shorts, handlebar options, PBH and frame size, drop vs. reach,  etc etc... and I've experimented with a bunch...which leads me to be skeptical about putting my faith in a service that seems to boil down to trial and error, plus common sense.  So here are the questions:

1. Have you been professionally fitted, and did that result in a noticeable improvement in comfort?  Enough that you would advocate for others? 

2. I have three or four bikes, set up different ways (Homer with drop bars as my "road bike", All Rounder with Albatross bars for "adventure", etc)....if one is "fitted" to a certain bike, does the "fit" apply to different set-ups? 

Thanks in advance, sd

[Richard Rose]

My experience only & 50 years of cycling later.., I answer “No” to both questions. Was I ever professionally fitted? Yes. Did it make a difference? No. Does the fit transfer to other bikes? Maybe. I wanted to say “No” but I realize it might for others. When my bikes were all road bikes - then yes. But since getting Rivendell bikes, everything else fit wise kind of went out the window. Upright position, Brooks B17 & adoption of a mid foot pedal position have combined to make me more comfortable than at any other time in my cycling life. And I did so finding my own fit.

My opinion only; professional fitting is primarily performance oriented. Once you know what works for you there is not much to be gained comfort wise.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 27, 2025, at 1:55 AM, Stephen Durfee <chefd...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm curious about the collective opinion regarding professional bike fitting, and pose these questions as one who has been riding for 50+ years on mostly drop bar road bikes, without ever having been "fitted"...  I'm not particularly interested in increased performance, although I'd be happy to ride faster/stronger in some situations - mostly, I'm concerned with comfort. I'm used to, and have generally learned to live with certain aches and pains after a good long ride, a sore back or neck for instance... sore butt is not uncommon either. I follow the conventional rules for set-up (ie, choose frame and saddle height based on PBH) and I tinker/ swap/exchange parts for the fun of it, but haven't ever really experienced an "aha" moment when it comes to comfort/fit!   

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[J-D Bamford]

Like RM above, i'm also skeptical about fitting services. But I can imagine use cases if they solve particularly concerning pain points. 

I've seen a robust treatise on choosing crank arm length based upon the angles that your femur (actually the femur/hip angle, in laymen's terms) rotates thru in a pedal stroke. If you really had pain points with perhaps knee joint or hip or butt muscles, maybe a fitter who's intimate with the physiological aspects (basically the fitter who wrote that extended treatise) might be able to help.

I feel like one of my legs is slightly shorter, and a fitter trained to spot that difference might recommend a shim under one insole to even out my vertical stance on the pedals. But I haven't bothered seeking it.

I know someone who went to a fitter before committing to a custom frame. The fitter recommended frame geo for the rider to have a very low/forward race-like aero position. Although she was capable of readily attaining such a position... it was her zero use case and resulted in drop bars being too far out of reach. She converted her road bike to an upright townie with backswept bars. That is an expensive and disappointing outcome resulting from assume that any bike fitter can help with a rider's goals or pain points. So buyer beware.

[Alex K]

Path Less Pedaled seems to be an advocate of a good bike fitting.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhP7xqJik3E

I'm considering getting a fitting myself, but they can be expensive. Like seeking out a therapist or GP, I think it's important to find someone whose values align with yours.....

Cheers

[David Ross]

I’ve been fit three times and honestly Bo think it’s a waste of time and money for anyone who isn’t a hardcore road rider or XC mountain bike rider. If I went and got a fit this afternoon, I wouldn’t be able to ride over 10 miles with the resulting setup. The only thing that’s worked for me is quite a bit of trial and error. I have a number of injuries and I really have to spend time and money to get it right. I spent thousands of dollars over the years on clipless pedal setups only to realize that all my knee and foot numbness issues could be solved by flat pedals. I also ride swept bars and I’ve yet to meet a fitter who knows how to deal with alternative setups like that. The one exception to that is probably the guy who runs analog cycles who has some interesting ideas on setup that I’ve used with great results. 

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[Piaw Na]

I did a fitting for my wife when we got her the Ritchey Road Logic. (https://blog.piaw.net/2024/06/new-road-bike-for-xiaoqin.html) The reasoning is that once you cut the steerer tube on one of those bikes you can't uncut them, so the fitting was insurance against cutting it wrong. She went from riding at 13mph on flat roads to being able to draft me at 20mph. This is a huge change without getting any stronger, doing any extra training, etc. (You can also partially attribute it to the Road Logic being at least 10 pounds lighter than the Cheviot) She rode the bike for 3000 miles before we returned for a followup, which tells you how much she liked the bike.

This follow up resulted in another series of adjustments, and all prior pain she had with regards to glutes, etc went away. The fitter said: "don't go another 3000 miles in any kind of discomfort without coming back." At that same followup, I got a fitting on my custom road bike, and while I didn't get any faster, I did notice that lower back pain after hard rides were eliminated. That means I can go for more back to back hard days.

My brother crashed his bike and for his birthday we got him a custom steel frame. We sent him to the same fitter once again because you cannot uncut a steerer tube. This time, the fitter discovered that his Q factor was too low. (I couldn't believe my ears) He showed us and fitted pedal offsets to give him a broader stance. My brother described that as a game changer.

Having said all that, you cannot separate the fitting experience from the bike fitter involved. This one came highly recommended by Terry Shaw (who's retired), a legendary bike fitter/bike shop owner in the San Francisco Bay Area.

[Victor Hanson]

This is a subject that drives me nuts......first and most important, if you are a normal height (5-2" to 6-4") and are within normal dimensions you do not need a custom fit ie - a 46cm to 64cm frame is going to fit.   Second, there is a fit window - that is with a +-3-5mm toptube you can play with different top tubes and stem lengths and angles......worry about whose name is on the downtube, are the welds sound, is the paint right.   ALL ELSE IS BULLSHIT.

Also, every builder has his "stitch"  Sachs - the eleglence factor; Steve Potts the same Sachs and is the Godfather......The Murphys and their tricked out paint and accouterments, Bernie with the fit-cycle and built fast.......So engough

VTW 

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[Piaw Na]

On Monday, January 27, 2025 at 9:06:01 AM UTC-8 dros...@gmail.com wrote:

I’ve been fit three times and honestly Bo think it’s a waste of time and money for anyone who isn’t a hardcore road rider or XC mountain bike rider.

What is your definition of a hardcore road rider or XC MTB rider?

Someone who uses a bike for short 3-5 mile utility rides might never need a fitting. But if you go on a bike tour are you hard core enough to need one? 

 

[Ted Durant]

On Monday, January 27, 2025 at 1:54:59 AM UTC-5 chefd...@gmail.com wrote:

I'm curious about the collective opinion regarding professional bike fitting, and pose these questions as one who has been riding for 50+ years on mostly drop bar road bikes, without ever having been "fitted"... 

1. Have you been professionally fitted, and did that result in a noticeable improvement in comfort?  Enough that you would advocate for others? 

2. I have three or four bikes, set up different ways (Homer with drop bars as my "road bike", All Rounder with Albatross bars for "adventure", etc)....if one is "fitted" to a certain bike, does the "fit" apply to different set-ups? 

I've also been riding pretty seriously for over 50 years, and I have spent a lot of time researching fit recommendations and playing with my position on the bike. I have never paid for a "professional fit", and the horror stories I read and hear unfortunately outnumber the success stories. Most of the success stories I hear/read seem to involve people with particular issues. Most of the horror stories seem to involve people getting very bad advice. I don't consider myself to be in the special needs category, at 168cm (66") tall and 57kg (125lb)  weight. My annual mileage over the last decade has been in the 3000-7000 range. My longest rides are 600km. Last year I rode 177 times, 159 of them outdoor, mostly pavement with some gravel and dirt thrown in occasionally, an average of 54km (34mi), at an average speed of 26.0 kph (16.3 mph). I include all that because I think bike fit has to take into account what type of body you have and what type of riding you do. 

My riding position has been dialed in and tweaked over the years. In response to some Achilles tendonitis, I lowered my saddle a bit and found some relief, and never raised it back (until recently). I like riding with the tops of the bars pretty close to saddle height, and deep drops with a fair amount of reach, so when I change hand positions I have a wide range of body positions. This has served me well, but I have always had some low back issues that I attribute to a childhood sledding incident.

I tried a _lot_ of upright bar positions on a few bikes, including a Cheviot, and never found any that I liked for anything more than fifteen minutes. That changed when we got a Hubbuhubbuh. I really like the upright position on that bike, but it doesn't translate well to my drop bar position (other than saddle height).

Recently I was measured by a bike builder. According to his measurement and the popular formulae, my saddle height should be in the neighborhood of 740mm. I've been riding at 700 and even a bit lower. He also wants my saddle pushed back, recommending a 71.5 degree seat tube angle. Interestingly, the STA on the Sam Hillborne is 71.5, and I like that bike so much I bought 3 of them. I'm not convinced the laid back STA is why I like that bike so much, but it's interesting. Since that finding I have brought my saddle height back to 715mm, where it was 10 years ago, and I am very happy with it there. I tried as much as 725 and started to feel some strain at the front of my knees. One VERY important detail here is that I ride binding-less (flat) pedals with a forward foot position, and a neutral foot angle (not a toe dipper or an exaggerated heel dropper, though at 700cm I was dropping my heels a fair amount). Not fully forward to mid-arch, but well forward of "ball of the foot over the pedal axle" standard advice. With binding systems I slam the cleats as far back as possible. The experts don't seem to agree on how much to adjust saddle height for a given change in foot position, but it seems reasonable to me that where I place my feet could easily require 5-10mm lower saddle height. For what it's worth, the Rivendell recommendation is to put your saddle height at PBH - (10 or 11). Mine is exactly PBH - 11.

Side rant - a popular formula is that saddle height should be (1.09 * PBH) - crank length, i.e. pedal to saddle top should be 109% of PBH. And, yet, another popular fit metric is to put your heels on the pedals and you should be able to pedal backwards without rocking your hips. Set your saddle to 109% of PBH above pedals, and let me know how that works out for you! By my math, in order to be able to pedal backwards with your heels on the pedals and not rock hips the distance should be 100% of PBH. What am I missing??

With regard to different types of handlebar setups, I find that the upright position on the Hubbuhubbuh feels compatible with the more rearward saddle position, which makes sense given Grant's evolution toward both more upright riding and slacker STA's. But the saddle height, for me, stays the same. 

Also, when I got my first Sam, I put a 1cm shorter stem on it than the geometry would have suggested to get the same handlebar reach as my other bikes, and because of the Sam's geometry the tops of the bars are right at saddle height. It didn't take me long on that bike to ask why I hadn't tried a shorter stem until then. I've had a couple of vertebral compression fractures in the last five years, probably losing about a cm or half inch of height, so shortening the reach makes sense. It has increased comfort with no apparent cost in speed. My torso position is the same; just my arm angles have changed. The difference is especially noticeable in my shoulders and neck, though  my lower back seems to complain less, too.

Also, last year I tried 165mm cranks (vs 170, 171, and 172.5) and I like them very much. And I recently found that I'd been tipping my saddle back a bit too much.

So, sorry, that's a long rambling way of saying no, I haven't had a full pro fit done, but I've spent a lot of time researching, thinking about it, and trying different things, and I'm happy with how that's been working out for me. There is a huge amount of advice online. I have found formulas to be useful as starting points, but the most helpful advice for me has been descriptions of what to look for as you change dimensions.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee WI USA

accumulating a pretty good collection of stems and handlebars that I'll be putting up for sale this spring!

[dane...@gmail.com]

I'm a bit of a weird situation being that I broke my growth plate in my femur when I was younger.  Surgery was done on the other leg to close the growth plate also.  What that left me with was a 18mm ish leg length discrepancy and femurs that are overall 2 inches shorter than they would have been.  I have had 2 fits done.  I've also done A LOT of experimenting myself both before and after.  Even with my short femurs, I do seem to need/prefer a slacker seat tube angle.  Maybe the fact that my saddle height is 2 inches lower than it would be and my femur/tibia ratio is out of wack.  I suppose a 2 inch lower saddle height is going to bring the saddle forward quite a bit.  I also now run all 155mm cranks.  If riding clipless, I stagger my cleats so help with the leg length discrepancy as this is what I naturally do on flat pedals.  Ive tried different length cranks but only in more commercially available sizes.  175mm is way too long for me so doing 165 short leg/175 long leg didn't really work for me.  Maybe if i can get my hands on 145/155 it would help.  I think the longer tibia/shorter femur leads to a more closed hip angle at the top of the pedal stroke versus normal/long femur.  

That all being said, I never stuck with either one of my professional fits.  Both were quite a bit too aggressive.  I've also had 2 custom bikes, both of which I sold for being too long.   At my fits they did recommend a slacker seat tube angle as on that bike we were already saddle slammed back on a 20mm seat back post with a 73STA.  I find that if I start getting back there the interaction of my  legs and the cranks feels better but the center of gravity starts getting too rearward and handling suffers.  

I'd recommend really making sure you find a fitter who understands what your riding style is and what you find more comfortable.  A fit for putting down a lot of power through the pedals and one for cruising around town or less aggressive riding is not going to be the same.  

-Dan

Still haven't figured it out. 

[John Dewey]

I worked on the inside for a large well-respected frame / bike builder. 

We offered fittings but most of the insiders were scornful and thought it was a joke. Of course, it was, however, an additional revenue stream. 

YMMV, of course. 

Jock

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[Brian Turner]

I tend to side with Ted’s thoughts and experiences.

The most uncomfortable ill-fitting bike I’ve ever owned was a custom fixed gear frame I was fitted for prior to its construction. I don’t have enough experience to write off bike fitting completely, but part of me thinks it might not be necessary for people with regular body types and no real specific issues to address. For most cyclists, I think it just takes riding a lot and knowing what works for your body after toying around with different adjustments.

Brian

Lex KY 

On Jan 28, 2025, at 10:39 AM, John Dewey <john...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Steve]

Peter White offers an interesting perspective on bike fitting. If you haven't already stumbled across it you might find it of interest. 

https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.php

[DJC]

This thread has plenty of useful information, but no one has talked about working on the "body". And I'm not talking about more cycling, rather what work are you doing off the bike? What is the quality of your movement in terms of mobility, stability, and strength? Are you symmetrical or asymmetrical? For instance, one leg is "longer" than the other and the fitter shims the cleat, now the legs are equal in length, solved the problem right? Only if there is a structural issue (bone development or injury), but a structural difference is rare compared to the number of people with functional issues in the lumbo-pelvic region, which is generally a muscular imbalance that is causing one hip to drop or rotate or both, causing an asymmetrical movement pattern in the pelvic region. So shimming cleats for a non-structural problem only treats the symptom, not the cause. Shimming is a temporary correction, but odds are your issues will return.

Low back, shoulders, and neck discomfort? Could be partially addressed with a better fit, but what are you doing to develop a functional, resilient, and strong core / upper body?

I think we lose sight of a fundamental idea: we're joining a 3D movement machine (human body) to a 1D wheeled contraption. We spend gobs of time moving our legs in "circles" while the rest of body is held in an isometric posture. The question you need to ask is what am I doing help my body deal with the is unnatural movement and the forces it generates?

As a colleague once said, "If they aren't functional (movement) off the bike, they won't be functional on the bike"

Be smart with your body and if you're going to work with a fitter make sure they are experienced, certified, and really understand how the body and bike interact.

David

Buffalo, NY

[Jeremy Till]

I'm also interested in this thread, and appreciate learning about other people's fit journeys through their cycling career. Like many, I have never had a professional fit, but I have thought a LOT about fit, perhaps to the point of over-obsessing about it. I don't recommend that, but I also agree that the surest way to be comfortable on the bicycle is through trial and error, critical thinking about your body and bike, and keeping an open mind. I also agree that what we're doing with our body off the bike has a major influence with how we feel on the bike. I've done yoga off and on for a number of years, and whenever I am consistently practicing yoga, being comfortable on the bike (or identifying what adjustments I need to make to do so) becomes easier.

I've been thinking about fit in one way or another since I started building up my own bikes, which was almost 20 years ago now. I would say that my attention to fit ramped up around 12-13 years ago, when I had built up a couple of bikes that were supposed to fit me properly, but I wasn't really satisfied with the comfort I had achieved on them. My early experiments at that time had two major influences, namely Keith Bontrager's "The Myth of K.O.P.S" on Sheldon Brown's site and Grant's general approach to bike fitting at the time, which encouraged larger-than-average frames and higher handlebars. This coincided with me buying my first Rivendell, a 64cm Quickbeam (I had originally intended to buy a 62cm SimpleOne, but after measuring my PBH Vince thought it would be too small for me). Of course, I took both to an extreme probably not intended by either author, focusing on super high/upright handlebars and lots of seatpost setback (I bought multiple Nitto S84's during this period). This coincided with me buying my first Rivendell, a 64cm Quickbeam (I had originally intended to buy a 62cm SimpleOne, but after measuring my PBH, Vince thought it would be too small for me). Building up the Quickbeam and then a 64cm Surly Long Haul Trucker, both with upright bars, I ended up eschewing drop bars completely for a few years. I was basically happy with the LHT with both Albatross and Bosco bars, but was never really satisfied with how the QB felt, and I ended up selling it, a decision I sometimes regret. 

My upright-only period came to an end in 2016, when I rebuilt a Medici Pro Strada racing bike from the early 1980's to ride in Eroica California, a cycling event that required riders to be on vintage road or touring bikes. I stuck with drop bars on the bike to match the ethos of the event, and ended up being surprised with how comfortable and efficient I felt on the bike, which helped me in completing the ~120 mile route. Drop bars began to return to the rest of my stable, first on the Long Haul Trucker. That fit was successful enough that I used it as a guide to set up drop bars on my Rambouillet, which I bought a couple of years later. The Rambouillet is now my bench mark, definitely the best-fitting and most comfortable road bike I have ever owned. Along with the return to drop bars, my saddle position moved forward again, away from the large setbacks I had sought during my upright era, and I moved towards somewhat narrower foam/gel saddles from WTB, away from the B.17's championed by Rivendell. 

These days, I would say that my bike fits are converging, meaning that in general I am seeking to replicate the basic body position achieved on my Rambouillet and LHT, with minor adjustments for handlebar type and intended use. I'm pretty confident setting up drop bar bikes for myself and find that I can achieve a satisfactory fit on them pretty consistently. Upright bar bikes, which I still prefer for commuting and errands, are a bit more of a challenge for me, ironically. While some might say that the short distances they are ridden would make fit less of an issue, I find that the short distances makes it harder to get a clear impression of what are issues caused by my bike setup rather than the inconsistent vagaries of living in a ~40 year old body. 

The convergence of my fits is guided by my realization that saddle position is one of the most important fit dimensions for me. I try to be consistent in saddle height, setback, and angle between my bikes, and find that once I have the saddle in the right place figuring out the handlebar position becomes a lot easier. Achieving consistency in saddle position has been facilitated by investing in an Abbey Bike Tools Fit Kit, which makes measuring all three saddle parameters easier. A related discovery is that if my hands, arms, and upper back are uncomfortable, I can usually improve things by lowering my handlebars, which helps me engage my core muscles better to relieve my hands and arms. This was a bit surprising since it went against Rivendell's basic philosophy that raising the handlebars increases comfort. I'm not saying that's wrong, more that we need to approach such ideas with nuance and critical thinking.

I appreciate the chance to share some of my own fit journey, and look forward to discussing it more. This is has been an area I've wanted to discuss for a while. 

Jeremy Till

Sacramento, CA

[Bill Lindsay]

Jeremy illuminates some really good points.  Particularly, I think the main take home is that Trial and Error can be super productive, but it's main value is knowing objectively what it is you are doing.  The words I associate with random adjustments with no rhyme or reason being "fiddling" or "tinkering".  As in, "I've been tinkering with my fit for weeks and can't get comfortable.  What am I doing wrong?"  One of the things is "tinkering".  Have a plan and execute on the plan.  Make a list and check items off the list if that's the way you execute plans.  

There could be a good debate between Jeremy and Peter about saddle fore-aft.  Jeremy and others think there's one setup that's good and then you work on the handlebars.  Peter and others would say that the farther down and out the bars are going to be, the more aft the saddle should be.  In other words, run the saddle farther back on drop bar setups and more forward on uprights.  

The thing I'll add is that it's my observation that some people are just bad at riding bicycles.  It's easy to see.  One person rides by and you can see it in their form they are confident, relaxed, poised, athletic, comfortable.  The next person rides by and you can sense they are tense, scared, uncomfortable.  It can correlate with experience but I see folks that have been riding bikes for 50 years and still look like they are doing it wrong.  I don't have any idea how to teach a person how to ride a bicycle, but I know it when I see it.  The most obvious thing to see for me is an arched back.  If your back is arched you are doing it wrong.  There are other things that are easy to see.  

The only common phrase that I think captures what I mean is what you tell a guest that comes into your home.  You tell them "Welcome! Make yourself comfortable".  I think some cyclists know how to make themselves comfortable on their bike.  Other cyclists simply don't.  Those that don't make themselves comfortable either CAN'T (because the bike doesn't fit), or don't know they are supposed to make themselves comfortable, or don't know how to make themselves comfortable.  The point I'm making is that a comfortable cyclist doesn't just passively deposit their body onto a bike and the bike forces them to be comfortable.  There is some agency on the part of the cyclist to make themselves comfortable.  That's a skill that some people have and others learn.  It probably is also a muscle that some people have and other people train.  Things like "engaging the core" are behaviors that help a cyclist make themselves comfortable.  Making yourself comfortable can be work, and it can get harder when you are tired.  So, sometimes when a rider says "my saddle is comfortable for up to two hours", it's possible that the rider sits differently on the saddle after two hours, so the problem isn't automatically the saddle; it could be the fitness/endurance/flexibility/strength of the rider, which can all change.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[J G]

Just want to highlight this section of the Peter White article because it articulates a piece of another great riding tip that David Kirk posted in 2009 and that is currently unavailable as a link for some reason.  I always start with setback (and saddle angle - generally nose up just a bit):

"For starters, I like to put the saddle in the forward most position that allows the rider to lift his hands off of the handlebar and maintain the torso position without strain, while pedaling. You should not feel like you're about to fall forward when you lift off the handlebar. If it makes no difference to your back muscles whether you have your hands on the bars or not, you know that you aren't using your arms to support your upper body. If you are, your arms and shoulders will surely get tired on a long ride. But this is a starting position. Remember that bicycle fit is a series of compromises."

-Justus

Mpls, MN

[Berkeleyan]

Yes, "make yourself comfortable" is a fine philosophy to follow for bike fitment. I only want to add that it also requires some level of self-awareness, at least an ability to listen to your aching muscles and sore bones, and integrate what they're telling you into mechanical adjustments. In my own case, on the new-ish diagatube bike, I recently realized that the backs of my knees were feeling strained, and especially in comparison to the comfortable ride on the old-ish RBW LongLow. I decided to check saddle height, and quickly saw that I had mis-measured when setting up the new bike! I had duplicated the distance from BB to saddle, but had forgotten that I have slightly longer cranks on the new bike. Doh! Dropping the Brooks 2cm made a transformative difference, the ride is quite a bit nicer. Riding no-hands is also easier, I guess I'm not rocking my hips to reach the pedals.

- Andrew, Berkeley