A Homer Hill build....

[Sarah Carlson]

I think I learned what N + 1 syndrome is.... I have two very lovely bikes, and Atlantis and a Platypus. Between the two I have been able to do most of the kind of riding I can dream of. Chase around my kid on the Atlantis which is built up as an all rounder (Because I had only road bikes and I have a kid who can't stay away from dirt and gravel). I have been taking my Platypus out on club rides which has been working out fine... until I started to have aspirations to try out some of these rides that involve a lot of hills... so of course I decided to buy A Homer that I would like to build up specifically for rides with lots of hills! (To clarify, I am totally happy to take my time getting up hills on my Platypus which I have set up with racks and bags, fenders... but I like to ride with other people which are usually people with traditional road bikes with all the carbon fiber things).

So I would love some guidance on setting up the gearing, and handlebar types, and random suggestions on how to do a lighter build. I know weight isn't the most important thing... but I can for sure tell a difference when I run up and down the stairs at the BART station with my Platypus when I have it laden with all the things vs when I first got it... and I love it now with all the things... so of course another bike, n + 1 is the answer.

I've been considering the Wide Low double (38 x 24).

I use the Billie Bars, and Albatross bars on my other bikes... am I missing out on anything by not considering other options? (I have a shoulder that sometimes misbehaves so drop bars have not been my friend).

I am open to bikesplaining.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I take the triple weight penalty because I like my 48 chainring on the flats and my 24 chainring for the really steep stuff or when I’m tired.

I keep it slightly lighter by using a 28 cassette in the rear.

I use an Albastache, which may not be as upright as your other bars. It’s worth considering.

My other thought is to use nice tires. I would use Grand Bois Lierre EL or the Compass equivalent or Parimoto 38 mm.

My final thought is why not a Roadini? That’s what I would do if it’s mostly pavement. (Piaw rides his almost? everywhere.)

Have fun,

Toshi in Oaktown

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[Steve]

An Albastache with drop bar levers?   

I'm sure some Homer riders will chime in with their thoughts, but I've found that mustache style bars can strike a happy compromise between swept back designs and drop bars. The trick I think is to get the height and reach dialed in so they provide both a comfortable, somewhat upright-ish cruising position when on the ends, and a lower stretched out aero-ish position when out on the bends & brake lever hoods. I've found they work best for me with a much shorter stem than I would have expected.  

I'd think a 24t chain ring, if coupled with an 11-34 or 11-32 rear cassette would give you a sufficiently low "granny gear" for big climbs, but I wonder if you'd wind up spinning out the 38 x 11 high gear. I run a VO triple on my Platypus with a 44-34-24 crank and an 8 speed 11-34 on the back. I'm definitely a 'party pace' sort of rider, but often find myself shifting onto the 44t chain ring. 

Not to distract you from your plan...but would a Roadini be a better choice for club rides?  Whatever you settle on, have fun with your N+1 bike build!!!

[Ed Carolipio]

Congrats - new bike day is always the best day.

+1 on Toshi's suggestion for a triple crank up front (get a light-ish road crank) with an 11-28 cassette in the rear - that's my setup on my long distance bike. That gives a wider gear range than the wide-low and minimal weight difference because the cassette is lighter. If you want to stick with the double, IMO the wide-low will not give you enough top end. You'll have to run something at least like the 42/28 (from Riv - but maybe wait for the lighter duty Silver2?) or the 46/30 (the "adventure" or "gravel" gearing available from many manufacturers) with a taller cassette (11-32 with most RDs, 11-36 on friction with most RDs, and up to 11-42 in friction with some RDs and maybe Wolf's tooth goat link) in the back.

I like using this gear ratio calculator: https://www.gear-calculator.com/  Since you have existing bikes, you can enter your existing gearing then compare the gearing on your new bike. The gearing on your new bike should at least match on the low end and exceed on the top end of your existing bike. With a double that may not be possible so check what's the equivalent gear combination that low end is on your old bike, go find a hill, and ride it unloaded in that combo to see if that effort is something you can live with.

 Also +1 on Toshi's suggestion for nicer tires: Rene Herse or Grand Bois, and I'd go for the standard casing for better flat protection.

If you haven't already, build up a nice light-ish wheelset. For rims, I suggest the Pacenti Brevet or Velocity A23 as good value options, with the latter available as an Off Center drilling for rear wheels. More expensive options exist of course. For hubs, the Shimano 105 is good enough but you'll have to service them periodically (and I'm not a fan of the bluish anodizing.) Rich built me an A23/A23OC wheelset with 105 hubs for my Roadini and it performed wonderfully.

Since you're going to be experimenting with bars and fit, I suggest investing in a "stem fit kit": an inexpensive quill adapter; a 31.8-to-25.4 handle bar shim; and a handful of inexpensive 31.8 threadless stems. Use Whatbars.com and your existing bike fit to get the range of stem lengths that would work. The Origin8 adapter is under $20. The Kalloy stems are about $25 each, and you can find them (and other value stems) used at a local bike co-op, here, in iBob, and eBay. IMO worth the investment since you're only going to know if the bar works for you if you go out on a decently distanced bike ride, and threadless stems are easier to swap than quill ones. When you're done, go get that nice Nitto stem for your AHH, tape and shellac your handlebars, and put these in a box since, well, n+1.

Since your riding position is changing, set aside budget for possibly a new, narrower saddle. I have Brooks B17s (170mm width) with my flat/alt bar bikes but use a GB Aspin (157mm width) with the cutout for my drop bar bikes. Some manufacturers and stores offer a saddle comfort guarantee, so check with those vendors if the need arises. I like to shop for saddles at biketouringnews.com because they do offer a 90 day saddle comfort guarantee and sell a wide selection of saddles, like Brooks and GB as well as Ergon and WTB. (Not a paid endorsement - they've just been awesome the handful of times I've shopped with them.)

Looking forward to how your build ends up, with pictures of course.

--Ed C.

Redondo Beach, CA

[Sarah Carlson]

I am having regrets about not getting a 24 on my Platypus chainring, and am looking into correcting that. I thought to keep up with group rides I needed a big ring up front to be "fast" but what it turns out is really important is a low gear. I especially learned that when I went on a flat 28 mile ride and somehow the leader took us on a wrong turn and we ended up on Mt. Diablo... So I'm looking at the wide low double which I think will meet most of my needs, but I am going to ask about the triple!

I am considering the Albastache, how do you have yours set up? And what was the switch for you like from other bars? These are the ones I am most curious about so SPILL! I have been a Billie Bar/Albatross loyalist and am hoping to at least test ride the Albastache to make sure I'm not missing anything.

I did consider the Roadini, also tempting because of the difference in price... but I find I just always feel a bit squished up on a shorter frame. Also I recall reading that you can't put an Albatross bar on there and drops are a nono because I have a wacky shoulder that I need to be kind to. 

[Sarah Carlson]

Okay, I love these ideas. I'm writing this down on my super nerd gearing list. I am so curious about the triple now. I've had some advice that it's overkill, but I'm curious now that I am hearing from people with riding experience... people who ride like me... While on my own I am a "Party Pace rider" I do find that I get into my 42 front chainring a lot... but I also ride the 28 for most of the time. I spin on downhills, and can't get quite a low enough gear to get up these long hills without feeling it in my knees... Maybe a triple is the answer. I don't mind a weight penalty for something that improves ride experience, I'm just trying to be more conscious about throwing racks and bags and accidentally building every bike into a touring bike. I will not be at the point where I fit everything into tiny jersey pockets, just trying to find that balance.

The Roadini is the rational looking choice, but I am just not a pure roadbike person. I need to be able to get a somewhat ergonomic handlebar on there, no drops due to my funky shoulder. And I've been mostly having a fine time on club rides on my Platypus which I have a trunk bag on... which gets a lot of comments until I'm the one who pulls out a fully equipped first aid kit, or can carry out someone's water bottle and cage that flies off mid ride... try fitting that in a Jersey pocket!

The Homer is going to be great for what I'm planning to do... and if not then it's another N+1 situation, right?

[Sarah Carlson]

Wow, another triple recommendation, I'm so glad I read this before splashing out! And all you guys have addressed my main question which I didn't put out there... how to get a high and low enough gear... a triple!

I do have Rich built A23 on my Platypus, and would 100% do it again. I did dynamo hubs on my other two bikes and I think I'm going to keep this bike more basic. If I'll be riding late I'll take the Platypus or the Atlantis. For some reason it feels like overkill to have 3 bikes all set up that way. I have a battery charged light that is not super glamorous but can do the job. And I am curious about the Rene Herse tires, and am hoping to test those out on this bike.

I'm going to branch out from the real purty saddles and get a Specialized Mimic which was recommended to me by my Godmother. I have a broken in Brooks B17 waiting in the wings if that doesn't work out.

Thanks for the ideas!

[Sarah Carlson]

Also I had no idea a stem fit kit existed!

On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 5:22:02 AM UTC-8 Ed Carolipio wrote:

[Ted Durant]

On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 8:27:06 AM UTC-6 sarahlik...@gmail.com wrote:

 so of course I decided to buy A Homer that I would like to build up specifically for rides with lots of hills! (To clarify, I am totally happy to take my time getting up hills on my Platypus which I have set up with racks and bags, fenders... but I like to ride with other people which are usually people with traditional road bikes with all the carbon fiber things). 

I'd want to hear more about what you mean by "lots of hills" and the kind of riders (not just their gear) you are with. You mention in a follow up riding up Mt. Diablo, for example. So, that to me says "sustained paved climbing at a mostly moderate but sometimes steep grade", unless you went to the top, in which case I'd add "sometimes wicked steep". I'd also want to hear more about your fitness level or, maybe more specifically, the speed at which you and your riding pals like to climb.

I'm a lightweight, not especially strong rider but I like to push myself going up hills. I don't often find I need easier than a 1:1 gear; if I do, I'm off road on some VERY steep stuff. I don't worry too much about how big my biggest gear is, although riding with a good group can mean wanting some bigger gears. My general statement is that I'd rather be coasting down a hill than walking up it. I've been very happy with the 42x28 Silver cranks on my two Sams, with 32 or 34 tooth big cogs in back. I've been surprised at how many hills on which I've actually been able to stay on the 42. On the other hand,  I have a Rivendell Road with a classic 53x39, 13-26 setup for the rare fast group ride. I did a super hilly group century on that bike ... it was a fast result, but it had a lot of out-of-saddle grinding time.

I am a dedicated handlebar bag user and don't generally carry more gear than can fit in one, even for very long rides. Also, I am a big fan of Noodle Bars. I have some back issues (a couple of compression fractures) but I'm still pretty flexible and find that putting the tops of the bars level with the saddle and not too far away gives me the best combination of power (what little I have), several riding positions, and long-distance comfort.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Ted Durant]

On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 8:35:43 AM UTC-6 sarahlik...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm just trying to be more conscious about throwing racks and bags and accidentally building every bike into a touring bike

This made me laugh ... yeah, my bikes all look pretty much the same, except for the Riv Road with the Campy Daytona group. But, that only looks different because it doesn't have a handlebar bag LOL.

I keep thinking I should mix it up, but I gave a Cheviot an honest try (at least 5 different handlebars, including a Noodle!) and never liked it. After crashing my West Coast Sam coming off Mt Lukens a few weeks ago, I've been wondering if I need a Hillibike for that kind of riding :-) 

[Sarah Carlson]

You always need a Hilly Bike... Do it!

I had an injury (shoulder) last year and had what I would call total fitness depletion so I have been building back up from what feels like zero.

The hill situation is just most rides involve some sort of hills, probably not big deal hills to people who ride a lot. But to me and where I am starting fitness wise I just want to have the best chance possible to keep up. I know the engine is thing heaviest thing, but dang I have encountered my peri-menopause metabolism and things are just not the same there. So while I figure that out I'm open to seeing what a lighter built up bike can do.

So I will also be experimenting with only a handlebar bag instead of a full on rack.

I'm trying to encourage one or two of the carbon fiber riders to get a Riv so we can try a different type of riding. I am mostly out with the carbon fiber/spandex folks who can fit everything into tiny jersey pockets. They have been kind and welcoming for the most part, with exception to the guy who led the first beginner ride I went on, looked at my bike and stated, "I hope I can ride slow enough..."

[Ted Durant]

On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 9:25:01 AM UTC-6 sarahlik...@gmail.com wrote:

You always need a Hilly Bike... Do it!

A list full of enablers :-)

 

I had an injury (shoulder) last year and had what I would call total fitness depletion so I have been building back up from what feels like zero.

I'm very sympathetic to that.  I've had a bunch of weird stuff happen over the last few years, including a drug that started killing my red blood cells, so I have felt like I've had to restart the engine a few times. That might be one reason why my bikes are all set up the same way ... trying to stick with what works in terms of positioning, while I get the other things going.

 

 So while I figure that out I'm open to seeing what a lighter built up bike can do. 

Far be it for me not to be the enabler of buying another Riv, but have you considered stripping down one of your existing bikes and trying some nice, light tires? In my experience, tires make by far and away the biggest difference to how a bike feels, and if you've dialed in a good riding position, you could start there (and maybe a wider range set of gears in back). Removing a rear rack can also remove some stiffness from the rear of the bike, but I don't know how many people would feel that difference, especially on a bike that's already fairly stout and on cushy tires.

with exception to the guy who led the first beginner ride I went on, looked at my bike and stated, "I hope I can ride slow enough..." 

Hoo boy, just the kind of person you want leading a group ride...  one of the reasons I stopped going on group rides.

[Sarah Carlson]

And it was a beginner ride with a avg 12 mile posted pace. I almost told him i hoped I hadn't held him back from making a personal best time on that ride!

My other bikes are set up perfect for what I do, so no stripping! Although I might have to consider that myself to bring in money for my bike habit.

[Greg J]

On the topic of gearing, I recently went from a wide range double to a triple and find it to be an improvement in one important way.  On the double I had the total range I needed (46-30 front, 12-30 or so, generally enough for most east bay hills).  But I found that I was cross-chaining on the gears that I find myself in most often (those gears were mostly in the big-big range or small-small range).  I converted to a triple with a 40 chaining up front (48-40-28), and my favorite cruising gears are now in the middle of the sprocket (I’m guessing 16-20 range) on the 40t chainring. 

All this to say, next time you’re on the hilly type of ride that you want this new bike for (on your current bike), think about what gears you’re in and how you might want to change them.  Do you want a lower low end?  Higher high?  And what is the middle gear range that you find yourself riding most of the time?  That could help make your decision on a triple (which, as you know, is a little heavier and a little more complicated due to having to shift across 3 rather than 2 chainrings, both in the mechansm and in your riding habit).

Greg

[Jason Fuller]

This happens to me a lot, where I think I've got my bike quiver dialed perfectly but then my needs change, and riding with new or different groups is a prime example! It's also why my Hillborne keeps bouncing back between drop bars and Albatross bars.  I think the Homer makes perfect sense! 

I'm going to suggest the Choco bar and a long stem, such as 12cm.  The Choco ought to be a great compromise between the Albastache and the Albatross; the 'stache is very forward feeling, much like reaching for the hoods on a drop bar, while the 'tross is very relaxed to the extent it is hard to get a comfortable 'hunched' position when you're climbing or pushing harder.  The Choco has a more natural feeling forward hand position thanks to its bend and flatter profile, but still sweeps back far enough that when you're cruising you don't need to have too much weight on your hands and shoulders.  I would run it with bar end shifters so you get full range of hand positions, and I really like the Paul levers because they are thin enough that I can put my hands such than one or two fingers is in front of the lever as well. 

I would echo that triples are pretty nice - not only do you get more range, but the 10-tooth jumps in the front are a lot less 'disruptive' if you know what I mean. I find the smaller chainring jump means that when I hit the base of a hill I can often just drop a chainring and leave the rear alone, and it is a natural gear reduction .. whereas on the wide-low double, you would be spinning like crazy if you tried the same thing

Other than that, lightweight wheels (A23's are great!) and tires (ie anything Rene Herse, but lots of other options too) and just avoiding putting unnecessary accessories on the bike will keep it pretty light. I love this whole plan! 

[Sarah Carlson]

So this is where I run into my issue... When I'm uphill I want an easier gear because I feel myself pushing hard and I feel it in my knees, and then on the long downhills I feel ungrounded spinning through nothing for a long time. So maybe a triple is the answer! On my Atlantis I find I'm riding on the 34 ring a lot and can do pretty much what I need to for most of my riding on that one... but I have not exactly been taking that one up lots of hills.

[Sarah Carlson]

Yes, those big ring jumps along with my learning how to shift effectively lead to some Ca- CHONK moments. Also I did index shifting for my rear gears, and friction in the front and I am learning how to do that gracefully. And I think I will be doing all index next time because it's less ca-chonky. But that probably has a lot to do with me and my riding. I am very happy on my 34 ring on the Atlantis and find myself longing for it on my Platypus rides. But what I'm hearing is if I get a triple I can have all my favorite options!

[Ted Durant]

On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 12:34:51 PM UTC-6 Jason Fuller wrote:

I would echo that triples are pretty nice - not only do you get more range, but the 10-tooth jumps in the front are a lot less 'disruptive' if you know what I mean. I find the smaller chainring jump means that when I hit the base of a hill I can often just drop a chainring and leave the rear alone, and it is a natural gear reduction .. whereas on the wide-low double, you would be spinning like crazy if you tried the same thing

Excellent point, and one that launches me into bike nerd mode... apologies in advance if this is too much.

The "standard" chainring gap became 16 teeth when "compact double" 50x34 combos became all the rage. That's a 39% jump, the way I measure it (Ln(50/34)), or about 2.5 times the 15.4% jump from 18 to 21 in back. Now, if you keep that 16 tooth gap but go down to 40x24, that's a ginormous 51% jump, which is 3.3x the 18-21 jump. I have a 42x26 on my Waterford ST-22, and it's definitely jarring to drop to the small ring when you hit a hill, requiring a bit of advance planning to shift a cog harder in the rear, first. I spent plenty of time riding half-step gearing, so I'm facile with double-shifting, but after a couple hundred kms I'm too tired for that. For my Breadwinner G-Road I went with 44x32, which is a gentle 32% jump. It means there's more overlap in the gearing, or to put it another way, I'm not maximizing the total range of the system, but I very much prefer to make that trade-off. At 41%, the 14-tooth gap on the Silver 42x28's on my Sams is pretty much the outer limit for me. The Wide-Low (38x24) is a 46% jump which is pretty high.

[Jason Fuller]

You bring up a good point Ted about so-called redundant gears, which is something many cyclists try to eliminate as much as possible to their own practical detriment. It's better to approach planning a drivetrain by identifying how low you want your low gear to be, how high you want your high gear to be, and then finding the most user-friendly combination to get there. A big issue with wide-range doubles is that you'll find that you need to drop into the small ring for every hill, whereas if you have a triple, you can generally stay in the middle ring most of the time and save a lot of front shifts, even though you have more rings up there. 

For me, I find I don't need anything above about 95 gear inches - above that and I'm going to coast, maybe tuck in and get aero. Maybe 100 tops. On the low end, if it's used off-road or to carry loads I'll want something in the 18-20 gear inch range, but if it's a roadish bike, 24-25 inches is good. So what I tend to do is run a double but size the rings such that I truncate the big gears I'll almost never use, so that I can run a big ring on the double that I can stay in on gentle climbs. 40/28 to 11-34 is a great combo, for instance. Even 38/26 to 11-28 to get some smaller steps on the back, and 38-11 is a big enough top gear for most situations 

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[Richard Rose]

Hi Sarah. I was just reading this thread & realized I have a friend with a Mimic saddle for sale. It apparently did not work for her but it’s brand new & probably a deal? If that is of interest to you I can put you in touch with her. I will see if I can attach a pic…

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 26, 2023, at 11:29 AM, Sarah Carlson <sarahlik...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Sarah Carlson]

Yes please!

[Sarah Carlson]

Bike nerd input is heartily welcomed. Gearing has been a challenge for me to understand but from spending hours reading and trying things out I'm starting to understand... thanks to other bike nerds!

The outcome is I will likely be giving a triple a try. The 34 is my favorite chain ring to live in, but I long for the higher and lower gearing when I don't have them. And somehow my brain gets the function of the triple more than trying to understand all the combinations possible with the cassette, and trying to comprehend "gearing math."

[Sarah Carlson]

Thank you for bringing up the redundant gears... in my brain I'm telling myself maybe it's overkill... but is it really such a terrible thing?

[Eric Daume]

IMO redundant gears are more of a conceptual or theoretical concern than a real issue. If you’re setting up a triple, you really end up with:

- a middle ring for the majority of your riding 

- a small ring for big hills, use it with the biggest cogs in back

- a big ring for downhills or otherwise going fast. Use it with your medium and small cogs and back. 

Yes, your small/small and big/big combos will give you those redundant gears, but who cares? You don’t need to use them anyway. 

Eric 

Who lives the 1x life in flat central Ohio 

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[Sarah Carlson]

This is gearing math I can understand... there is a Papa bear, and Mama bear, and a Baby bear... and something that will be just right for everyone!

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[Ted Durant]

On Nov 27, 2023, at 8:55 AM, Eric Daume <eric...@gmail.com> wrote:

IMO redundant gears are more of a conceptual or theoretical concern than a real issue. If you’re setting up a triple, you really end up with:

- a middle ring for the majority of your riding 

- a small ring for big hills, use it with the biggest cogs in back

- a big ring for downhills or otherwise going fast. Use it with your medium and small cogs and back. 

Perfectly described. 

Sarah, given that you have said you pretty much live in your 34t, this sounds like it fits your use case well. There’s a slight learning curve to getting comfortable shifting a triple, but with the right combo of chainrings and front derailer, it should work reliably. Grant has written a good description of how to get reliable shifts, but it presumes the mechanical things are set up correctly. Also, if you are going up a really steep hill, you might not have a half revolution worth of momentum. 

Imagine the circular pedal path as the face of a clock, and shift at 4:30. That’s half of your success.

When your shifting foot is at 6:00, stop muscling the pedal entirely. Let it drift to 12:00. Call this ‘floating,’ 

and it’s the other half of success.

As you float that pedal to 12:00, you also have to float the other side pedal to 6:00. The point is to eliminate 

power for half of a pedal revolution to de-tension the chain and give the shift time to take. When you 

honest-to-goodness float the pedal after the shift for, it takes just half a stroke. If you apply power even though 

you're not supposed to, the shift goes to hell, you lose your momentum, you fail.

[Patrick Moore]

For road riding, at least in my world, a 1X10 with granny ring works fine: 95" high and 1-tooth steps in the cruising range, bigger gaps between the inner cogs, with a much smaller granny ring.

But I did find that I missed a triple when riding rolling offroad terrain, neither firm and flat nor steep and technical, where I wanted a middle range of gears between about 65" and 30" and even with 10 cogs in back -- I haven't tried more -- a triple works best.

Patrick Moore, who now rides flat dirt on a single speed.

[Greg J]

Forgive me for bike-splaining here, but it seems like you're narrowing it down, so here's some more for your consideration.

Given where you ride, it makes sense to start with a triple, since that will cover all your bases (steep uphills, general riding, and fast downhills).

1. What type of triple?  There are different bolt circle diameter (bcd) standards for cranksets, and that dictates the sizes of the chainrings.  The "Riv standard" is 110/74 (110 for middle and large; 74 for small).  The smallest chainring for a 74bcd is 24T, and the smallest chainring for 110 bcd is 34T.  The 110/74 is probably the "Riv standard."  (There's also 94/58, which can give you smaller middle and small chainrings, but these cranksets are harder to come by.)
2. What size chainrings?  This depends on what you feel you're missing currently, between the front chainrings and rear cassette.  If you're using a 24T, do you use the largest rear cassette?  Do you want an even "easier" gear?  In the 34T, do you use generally the middle range of your cassette?  or are you biased towards the larger or smaller half?  For the large chainring, unless you want to go faster than your coasting speed downhill, you likely won't need anything any larger than 46T.   Typically, the standard combos comprise of 46-48T large, 34-38T mid, and 24-28 small.
3. What cassette?  This should be decided in combination with #2 above.  The smallest cog is typically 11-13T.  The largest is all over the place, but with "standard" long cage rear derailleurs, imo a good range is between 28 and 36T.
4. Index or friction shifting?  I would not rule out friction shifting for the front, as indexing front shifters can be finicky.  The rear is entirely your preference.  
5. A not-so-radical alternative.  Many people who don't need to go fast downhill will skip the large chainring of a triple and just use the inner and middle.  For example, if you're happy with your 34 or 36T middle chainring and the smallest cassette cog of 11T, then you'll save some weight and benefit from less complexity by leaving out the large chainring.  

Good luck!

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I'm almost positive there was a Roadini set up with an Albastache bar in one of Will's updates.  My Cheviot uses Albastache bars and I like it because I have an upright position at the rear of the bars and a lower position at the front of the bars.  My brakes are at the front--not in the back. The distance is perfect--kind of roadish, but much easier to brake than drop bars.  I've attached a picture here.

Rich Lesnik has a Roadeo set up with Albastache bars.  It's a wonderful bike.  The Albastache is designed, as far as I have experienced to take a similar stem as the drop bars and similar position as the drop bars, but much nicer on the back!  I would ask Rich about his stem length on the Roadeo compared to his previous drop bars.

--I have triples on all my bikes.  You can start with a 11-28 cassette, but use a mountain rear derailleur and you can swap to a larger cassette if you feel like you want lower gears for the hills.  All of mine or 48-38-24, but 46-36-24 or variations thereof should be absolutely fine.  The only problem I've ever had with triples is dropping the chain when shifting into the small ring.  You can get a "chain watcher" or some variation thereof to guide the chain onto the small ring and it will solve that problem if you have it.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Here's what I was thinking of.  It's a Roadini with Wavie bars.  I think I would like the Albastache better with the brakes up front like my Cheviot, but that's my personal preference.  https://www.rivbike.com/products/47cm-roadini-mermaid

Toshi

[Drew Saunders]

If you say you live in your 34, but sometimes spin out, while wanting a lower gear as well, then a triple is a good choice.

You can set up the common 74/110 triple, like the Silver, Soma Clipper, etc. as a 24-34-44, and pair that with a 12-36 in the rear and have your “3 cassettes on one bike” gearing. I use a 24-35-43 with a 12-36 on my 1998 Ibis Mojo “Mountain Bike that has become a Gravel Bike.” I use the 43 on pavement, the 35 on almost all my off road riding, and the 24 when gravity becomes inconvenient. Based on my riding, a 2x10 or 11 makes more sense, but I’m cheap and lazy, so I’ll stick with the triple for some time.

On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 7:24:42 AM UTC-8 sarahlik...@gmail.com wrote:

[Kim H.]

@Sarah,

I, too, decided to switch over from friction shifting in the back to indexing with leaving the friction shifter for the front. I found it very frustrating trying to find the right gears going uphill. It slowed my momentum.

Kim Hetzel.

[Sarah Carlson]

Yeah, going down hills in the 42 I am still spinning but then someone told me that is normal... I guess I am learning new things about riding since I've been out with a group. I'm going to do a triple on this one and see how it goes! I do like the sound of your set up with the 24-35-43 with 12 x 36. Gravity is inconvenient for me a lot these days because I like to fuel my engine with pie.... so I am looking forward to the 24!

[Stephen Durfee]

Hey Sarah - fun to follow this thread because I am also in the midst of a Homer road bike build, to complement my All-Rounder adventure bike. I have the same Silver 38/24 on the AR and found it to be frustrating even on the flats - I picked up a single 46T chainring and (when I find the time) will be swapping that in for the chainguard to make mine a more useful triple. Meanwhile, the Homer will be getting a 46/30 crankset from VO and an 11-34 cassette....Nexave RD and Rich-built Velocity Synergy wheelset (33mm Jack Browns) collected from folks on the list. I'm putting the finishing touches on mine now, let's plan a Homer parade for GGP when you get yours built!

[Drew Saunders]

If you’re spinning out the 42, many triple FDs and RDs will handle a 24-36-46 with a 12-36. Alternately, you could use the 24-34-44 with an 11-34 or 11-36, both of which are made in 9 speed. A 44x11 is easy math, it’s the same 4:1 ratio that was the standard high gear when professional racers ran a 42-52 up front with a 13-21 freewheel. 

On Tuesday, November 28, 2023 at 6:11:51 AM UTC-8 sarahlik...@gmail.com wrote:

[Nick A.]

Hi Sarah, I also fuel my engine with pie and love the triple crank on my commuter. It's 48-34-28, with a 12-36 9sp in rear. I love it and use that 34t all the time to push around. Just the right range for hilly Northern VA.

Nick in Falls Church

[Joe Bernard]

Did someone say PIE??! 🥧

On Tuesday, November 28, 2023 at 6:11:51 AM UTC-8 sarahlik...@gmail.com wrote:

[Bikie#4646]

Sarah, I would like to ditto the other recommendations for triple chainrings and a smaller cogset. I use a 9-speed 12/27 paired to 46/36/24 crankset. Also, the Albastache / Mustache handlebars, paired to an 80mm Nitto Dirt Drop stem. My Mustache bars with a slight tilt downward offers the best of both worlds for me. It fits between my drop bar bike and the more upright Albatross bar on my single speed daily ride.

I'm at a point in life where I have no riding partners who don't think the way I do about group riding. (Which might be a new goal for you, too?) I would call it "spirited" but not competitive. We all have different pain thresholds and capabilities but everyone would think it improper to leave the others in the dust. Often the ride includes a bagged lunch midway. 

Even my rides which are not in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains are rarely over 40 miles, but a good workout nonetheless.

I find my Homer Hilsen is the perfect bike for this. With a near-minimum of bag capacity, I can carry a sandwich and even a lightweight jacket or vest, etc. Most every need for a day ride, which would include tools of course. Much of what I do on the Hilsen is unpaved and hilly. The 38mm tire capacity (with fenders) of my 2013 (?) frame handles dirt roads well, even on slippery downhills. The new Hilsens with longer chain stays may take wider tires yet, but I suspect there is a tipping point to tire width. If your group rides are entirely on pavement, 35-38mm tires should be the sweet spot for you and you won't need the excess rolling weight of wider.

I use a Sam Hillborne for touring and the Hilsen is noticeably livelier, especially without the touring racks. Since I am not spending all day on the bike, I can get away with a lighter, more narrow saddle. (But we all know that is a very personal preference.)  My Hilsen set up this way for me is a confidence-builder and my favorite bike for adventure rides with others.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikecrazy-paul/52784257986/in/album-72177720307152181/

Paul Germain

Midlothian, Va.

[Piaw Na]

I'll chime in. I'm here in the Bay Area (I noticed Sarah mentioned Mt Diablo), and I've found that Bay Area hills are not kind to triples. I switched to a 1x and am much happier: https://blog.piaw.net/2022/06/a-transition-to-1x-drivetrains.html

I'm sure this is a contrarian view, but my take is that the drop into a 24 is challenging enough that you will drop chains every so often and learn not to use it. My knees are much happier with 1x than with 3x. And I'm happy to give up the top end and restrict myself to spinning out at 30mph.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I agree that dropping the chain when shifting into the small ring is a major disadvantage of a triple, but I use a “chainwatcher” that guides the chain onto the small ring and that solves the problem for me.

Toshi

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/bddfc311-e820-437b-8690-8a3f0c020022n%40googlegroups.com.

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

Those "chainwatchers" have caused me more trouble than they're worth. Invariably (because I abuse my bikes and ride them off road), they will fail to catch the chain and the chain will jam in below them. When that happens, you have an ever harder time putting the chain back on! When that happens I get out my multi-tool, remove the chain watcher and toss it into the nearest trash can. I know that my experience is not universal --- most people don't ride aggressive enough environments to cause those problems. But that's why I place a lot of value on simplicity and fixability. When you're out in the middle of nowhere with your entire family with you there's no one to call to bail you out. Everything has to be rock solid reliable and I have no time or patience with "technology" like chainwatchers, indexed shifting, or finicky drivetrains.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CAGB59xxbvpQCZ9ppiQR2JbuumYyUdVK26rV6e7__k6S6zg3ETQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Bill Lindsay]

I think Piaw Na's story gets to the heart of it:  No amount of objective information is going to tell you what you like.  The only way to find out what works for you as a cyclist is to try things out.  Experience is the only way to rule things out or find out what works best.  The information you gather before making your choice will never tell you what works best for you.  It can only help you prioritize what you are going to decide to try next.  Piaw Na seems to understand that the stuff he likes ONLY applies to him and his particular idiosyncratic relationship with bicycles and cycling.  He seems to understand that his advice is only good or relevant for other cyclists who ride like him and treat their bikes like him, and have his personality.  I don't ride like him, treat my bikes like him, and don't have his personality, so it's a good idea for me to take his advice with a grain of salt.  Same goes for my advice or anybody's advice.  Pretty much the only objective thing we can say about bikes and bike parts is their weight.  Everything else is subjective.  I think that's important when gathering and consuming opinions.  It's still YOUR choice.  You may end up loving something that another very smart, very sensitive, very accomplished cyclist hates, and that's OK.  1x drivetrains, 2x drivetrains and 3x drivetrains are all excellent when used the right way on the right kind of application.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Sarah Carlson]

Hey Paul!

Thank you for sharing pictures of your set up, and an explanation of your gearing... I like what you have going here, my teen would say, "It's a vibe." I like the range of gears you have and I feel like that would work with how I ride. 36 seems like a sweet spot to ride in, while also having a 24 for hills, and a 46 which gives options when I am coming down hills because I just feel ungrounded when I'm totally spinning down hills. Great suggestions!

I'm going to have to test ride an Albastache bar somewhere, because your set up looks like a good possibility to be compatible for how I like to ride. The only thing is I know I like to have my break levers right under my hands and I tend to ride with my hands on the swept back part... so I'd need to see how it feels to keep my hands up front like that. Luckily learning what we like tends to involve riding and be fun so I'm up for it!

Sarah

On Tuesday, November 28, 2023 at 8:39:10 PM UTC-8 Bikie#4646 wrote:

[Paul Germain]

Sarah, I completely understand wanting your brake levers close at hand. But keep in mind, as another here has said, that this is one reason for a short (but tall) stem. 

I use this setup for my touring bike too (a Sam) because it allows a chance to “stretch out” like riding in the drops on drop bars.

This is less useful if you are riding on a commute and making many stops, some unexpected and abrupt.

For longer rides, I find I am “at home”  in in my Lazy Boy” on the hoods.

This position may not work for you if your body won’t allow it. 

You might be better served by Albatross bars. But keep in mind that you can angle those for a bit more “aero” position on faster group rides.

Paul Germain

MIDLOTHIAN, Va

Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/b2e7da02-f042-4122-81df-5dd8dc204eb5n%40googlegroups.com

.

[DavidP]

Hi Sarah - I'm in the process of a road-ish/commuter-ish build using Albastache bars. I've tried moustache bars in the past with the levers in the standard position and never liked them as much as my Albatross bars. So this time I'm moving the levers further back to be more like Albatross in use:





This gives good access to brakes from the farthest back position and the more forward "on the hoods" position, which are the two positions I use most on my Albatross bar bikes. The forward most "in the hooks" position does require a hand shift to get to the brakes but it's a small one.

So why even use Albastache bars if you're just going to set them up like Albatross bars? A couple of reasons come to mind:
1) Looks - the Albastache are more roadish looking.
2) Less rearward extension means a shorter stem can be used than with Albatross bars. I've got a 70mm stem on this bike.

-Dave

[Jason Fuller]

Another good thing to note on the Albastache, is if you find the lever angle doesn't work for you (which was my issue), Velo Orange makes a flat bar style lever that works on 23.8mm road bars, including the 'stache.  Then you'd be able to set them up truly like an Albatross, but have the more forward ergonomics 

[Greg J]

@Sarah - maybe the easiest thing is to go on a ride with some local list members who can give you some ideas while you're actually riding on these roads.  

For example, have you ridden a 24T granny on the road---and if so, with what rear cog?  A 24 is really very low for the road (but not for dirt), and a 24T - 32 in the back may be too low to be useful.  A 26 or even a 28 may be a better granny depending on your cassette range.  But as mentioned already, only you know what works for you.

Greg

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

The Greater Bay Area is full of 13-24% grades (which is where Sarah lives). Visitors from other areas (including places like Colorado) frequently drop their jaws when they see what the local touring clubs ride as a matter of course. A 24x36 drivetrain isn't too low a gear here, especially if you're carrying a load. On my triplet, I had a 24x36 and still couldn't climb anything over a 12% grade when carrying panniers. On my single bike I have a 40x51, and just manage to make it up a 30% grade, which required shifting my weight between the rear and front wheels in order to keep both wheels on the ground while grinding away. Here in the greater San Francisco Bay Area, your bike can never be too light, you can never be too wealthy, and you can never have gears too low!

[Joe Bernard]

My low on a 650B bike in Lake County, CA., is 26 x 50. It's useful! 

[Sarah Carlson]

All these responses have given me so much to think about, I appreciate all the help. Thank you!

[Sarah Carlson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed2-hdvGWjU&ab_channel=Henrywildeberry

I found a youtube video that is exactly how I want to ride....

[Bill Lindsay]

Therese is a delightful person and a very good rider.  I used to run across her a lot in the East Bay and at SFR events, but I don't think our paths have crossed lately.  

She's also a fair bit more enlightened about gearing than the filmmaker.  Her set up isn't perfect, but it's close (IMHO).  

The film makes me want to set a Diablo goal for 2024.  I've summited Diablo maybe 10 times, but I want to do multiple summits this year.  I'm going to start with 5 as my goal, with the extra challenge that I want to do it on 5 different bikes in my stable.  If I manage that, then summit #6 will be on a derailleurless bike.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Julian Westerhout]

Bill, 

This makes me wonder if there's a Rohloff-equipped bike in your stable!  ;) 

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Luke Hendrickson]

I live in the Bay Area (San Francisco) and my daily commute has around 2,500 feet in elevation gain with weekend rides often having double that. I really, really like 46-34-22 on my Atlantis with an 11-34 8s in the back. I just switched to a Rapid Rise rd and that’s been a treat when going from descent to climb to descent.

A lot of great input and advice in here along with some very strong opinions. Love it!

Luke in SF who works at Merry Sales and loves bikes more than he should

[Bill Lindsay]

Julian

There is not a Rohloff-equipped bike in my stable.  There are several derailleur less multi-speed single speeds in my stable.  

Bill

On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 9:09:46 AM UTC-8 weste...@gmail.com wrote:

[Sarah Carlson]

Bill, I have been trying to get my friend to try Mt. Diablo with me and we got an accidental chance to on a group ride a few weeks ago. It was advertised as a flat 28 mile ride but the leader somehow got lost and took us up Mt. Diablo. (The group turned around and my friend and I continued until I realized I would be late for my hair appointment if we went all the way up). It was actually that ride that inspired me to build a bike with a better gear range for hills. So maybe a Summit goal is in order!

I used to ride up it in High School... but I'm finding a lot of rides feel different now.

Sarah

[Bill Lindsay]

A couple weeks back I said:

"The film makes me want to set a Diablo goal for 2024.  I've summited Diablo maybe 10 times, but I want to do multiple summits this year.  I'm going to start with 5 as my goal, with the extra challenge that I want to do it on 5 different bikes in my stable.  If I manage that, then summit #6 will be on a derailleurless bike."

When I state a goal, I feel committed, even if the RBW Group isn't expending energy to hold me accountable, there is accountability when I type it out.  Anyhow, I got a start on the above today with my first summit of Mount Diablo for 2024.  I did it on my current stripped down road bike, my Black Mountain Cycles Road.  I picked today to avoid the pockets of rain that are hitting us with some regularity.  It was sunny and cool, but not cold.  One down, four to go.  Highlights included a rider on a 2TT Hillborne with Albatross bars.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 8:48:53 AM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote:

[Jason Fuller]

Nice work, Bill! Maybe it's high time for a 2024 plans and goals thread. I'm not so much about the resolutions, but working towards some healthy and joyful goals is a great thing.  

[Sarah Carlson]

Luke, I am bookmarking your gearing because that does sound perfect for the hills situation around here. Through practice I have learned my favorite gear is 34 (from riding my Atlantis) and that going down hills I am still spinning out in a 42 on my Platypus. That 22 sounds like a lovely gear to approach a hill in. You may see me try that out! I'm waiting until closer to build time to make the final decision... but more and more I am feeling pulled in the triple direction!

Sarah

[Sarah Carlson]

Bill, I will be keeping an eye out for you on Mt. Diablo so I can give you a thumbs up when you pass me!

Sarah

[Donzaemon]

So I'm about a couple weeks into owning my Homer, which I'm loving so far. Its use has been limited to pavement save for a short segment of dirt trail that connects official segments of SF Bay Trail in Alameda, CA. I've made a couple of observations so far:

Cockpit

I enjoy the relaxed upright position that the Billie Bars provide. It's done wonders keeping me comfortable and has not made any of my existing neck and lower back issues worse. That said, it feels a little awkward to make u-turns or any other decent turns at lower speed. While I don't intend on taking this bike on the many singletrack trails that make up a large portion of the natural surface trails in the SF Bay, I would like to take it on gravel climbs when and if possible. I realize I can use the positions directly in front of the brake levers on the Billie Bars, but I'm not sure if that'll provide the lever control that I'm looking for. 

I'm thinking about switching to wide-ish drop bars with some flare. I'm using Ritchey Corralitos (480mm) bars on my Ascent and I love them. I'd get a pair for the Homer if they were available in silver. I'm intrigued by the Crust Towel Rack, but I'm afraid they'd be a little on the wide side for me. Rune Bicycles is on the verge of releasing their Hilt Bars that hits pretty much all my checkboxes so I may opt for those when they're released. For those of you who do similar mixed-terrain rides with your Homers, what are your handlebar preference, and why?

Drivetrain

For my first build, I went with a 42/28 double with a 11-40 8sp cassette. I'm controlling the derailleurs (ultegra front and xtr rd-m960 rear with roadlink) with thumbies and love them. That said, shifting hasn't been what I had hoped. I find the shifts to be sloppy when shifting the range of cogs in the middle of the cassette. I'm not sure if I'm describing this correctly, but the gears sometimes slip during shifting resulting in two "clunks" before fully engaging. Also, the gears don't feel smooth between the middle to smallest cogs. Could this be due to the roadlink? I like the range of the 11-40 cassette and it's been nice using the big cog on climbs when needed so I'd prefer not to get rid of the roadlink and switch to an 11-34 cassette. I have an XTR RD-M952 I can try out instead? For those of you with similar gearing, what components have you settled on to get flawless shifting?

Thanks, in advance, for the feedback!

-Don

[Joe Bernard]

Don, 

What shifters are you using? Are they index or friction? 

Joe Bernard 

[Donzaemon]

Joe, I'm using Silver2 friction shifters with thumbshifter mounts.  Same as this:

https://www.rivbike.com/cdn/shop/products/stemshiftersilverclose-7_750x.jpg

[Toshi Takeuchi]

The smallest ring available (to my knowledge) for a road triple crank is a 24.  A mountain crank has a 22. You should be able to grab a 44-32-22 if desired.  If you go for a vintage crank you might be able to find a silver one.  Most of them seem to be black.

Toshi in Oakland

[Joe Bernard]

Don, 

You might try overshifting a bit in the cogs that are giving you trouble, that's actually how Shimano designed the index-shifting in the trigger shifters for your derailleur: Give the thumbie a proper shove - almost like you're planning to skip over a cog - then pull back a smidge to drop the chain full center on the cog you want. This should help a bit but I think you are correct that you're experiencing a bit of rumbling and grumbling from the chain because the road link has placed the derailleur further from the smaller cogs than intended. 

Speaking of the chain, if it's new you may just need to run it in a bit. New chains are always a little grumbly and finicky for me on the first few rides. 

Joe "this may not make sense and I may be completely wrong" Bernard 

[Joe Bernard]

OR you can ditch that road link and grab this nifty (and cheap) new mech from Shimano. It's goes up to 40!

https://www.rivbike.com/products/derailer-rear-shimano-acera-m3020

[Donzaemon]

Thanks for the suggestion, Joe. I didn’t know that’s how Shimano designed the trigger shifters for my derailleur. I’ve been using the same approach to shifting as I do with the 1x 12 speed drivetrain on my other bike. Looks like I’m likely going about it the wrong way. If that doesn’t work out, I’ll swap the m960 with an m952 and see if that improves things. 

As for your m3020 suggestion, I considered it when I was first speccing out this build. I ended up choosing aesthetics over function because I’m silly like that. 

[Sarah Carlson]

I did finally order my triple! 24-34-44. I was captivated by the idea of 22 for the smallest chainring but that wasn't an option. I really appreciate all the feedback and pictures of the bikes!

On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 6:27:06 AM UTC-8 Sarah Carlson wrote:

I think I learned what N + 1 syndrome is.... I have two very lovely bikes, and Atlantis and a Platypus. Between the two I have been able to do most of the kind of riding I can dream of. Chase around my kid on the Atlantis which is built up as an all rounder (Because I had only road bikes and I have a kid who can't stay away from dirt and gravel). I have been taking my Platypus out on club rides which has been working out fine... until I started to have aspirations to try out some of these rides that involve a lot of hills... so of course I decided to buy A Homer that I would like to build up specifically for rides with lots of hills! (To clarify, I am totally happy to take my time getting up hills on my Platypus which I have set up with racks and bags, fenders... but I like to ride with other people which are usually people with traditional road bikes with all the carbon fiber things).

So I would love some guidance on setting up the gearing, and handlebar types, and random suggestions on how to do a lighter build. I know weight isn't the most important thing... but I can for sure tell a difference when I run up and down the stairs at the BART station with my Platypus when I have it laden with all the things vs when I first got it... and I love it now with all the things... so of course another bike, n + 1 is the answer.

I've been considering the Wide Low double (38 x 24).

I use the Billie Bars, and Albatross bars on my other bikes... am I missing out on anything by not considering other options? (I have a shoulder that sometimes misbehaves so drop bars have not been my friend).

I am open to bikesplaining.