Which Dyno Hub?

[Jason Glenn]

Hi, all,

I've never had a bike with a dyno hub but rode one a few months back -- thanks, Max! -- and have decided to build up a wheel -- my first wheel build, too -- with one for an Atlantis.  I know the Son 28 is the go to, and I could be convinced to use one, but I'm working on a limited budget and am wondering what people think about the alternatives out there.  My main use for the Atlantis, at least at the moment, will be commuting, running erands, etc., but I'm trying to bike as my principle form of transportation (in Los Angeles) and will be riding in the evenings and early mornings with some regularity.  Down the road, I would like to do some touring on it.

Anyway, I'm interested in any and all suggestions/perspectives.  

Thanks, in advance,

jason

P.s. While I'm at it, happy to hear about favorite rims and spokes for the build...

[brendonoid]

I have only used son28s for years but recently acquired a Shutter Precision. The cheaper dyno has a much courser rotation feel but you don't notice it riding. However, I deeply dislike the shutter precision's flange spacing which is unnecessarily narrow and I worry about wheel strength its long term longevity for this reason.

That isn't a really helpful reply but I'd say if you can stretch for the Son28 you wont regret it.

[Brian Turner]

I've only had experience with the SON 28. My LBS tried to sell me on the Kasai dyno when I was building up a gravel / adventure bike back in 2020. and I almost went that route. However, I decided to splurge on the reputation of the SON 28, and the fact that it seemed to be considered one of the lowest drag options available. Apparently the advantage of the Kasai is that it's field-servicable, should the occasion ever call for it.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 5:25 AM brendonoid <bre...@areyoualert.com> wrote:

I have only used son28s for years but recently acquired a Shutter Precision. The cheaper dyno has a much courser rotation feel but you don't notice it riding. However, I deeply dislike the shutter precision's flange spacing which is unnecessarily narrow and I worry about wheel strength its long term longevity for this reason.

That isn't a really helpful reply but I'd say if you can stretch for the Son28 you wont regret it.

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[Mathieu Brown]

Good morning Jason, 

I was in a similar situation last year with my Platypus. I wanted to do a dyno and I understood there to be only one quality option. When Will was running through my build with me, he said something like "I mean, you can but you don't need to? The SON28 is great but I have a Shimano and It works 95% of the way there for 50% of the price." 

Now, since that conversation, Will's gotten a SON28 but, if you're looking to see if there's a quality lower cost option? If you called him, I imagine he'd make the same suggestion.

https://www.amazon.com/SHIMANO-Dynamo-DH-3N72-Generator-Hub/dp/B0029LD6D6

I still have my Shimano and it works great but I still think about the SON28 that could have been...

MATHIEU BROWN

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[Pat Smith]

I just finished my first dynamo wheel build with an SP disc model. Haven't hooked up the light yet though. Novatec makes a matching red rear hub :-)

[Eric Norris]

Jason:

You’ll hear many opinions—good luck sifting through the advice you will get!

I have both SON and Shutter Precision hubs and have not had any issues with either. My SONs have ranged from the old-style type with flanges pressed onto a center piece to the modern (and very pretty) type. I have several variations of the SP hubs on various bikes.

If money is no object, definitely go with SON, if only because they’re so darn pretty. SP will perform just as well—I have not experienced the “roughness” that one other respondent reported.

Based on what I’ve read about SON and their weather sealing, the biggest advantage that I know of is that they are pressure compensated; SP hubs are not. That means that if you go from a warm, dry environment directly into a cold and dry one, the SON hubs won’t draw in moisture as the air inside the hub cools. SP hubs might, but for this to be a problem, you would have to roll right out into a cold downpour. That’s an edge case for me and something that has never been a problem.

Finally … Have you considered the Velogical dynamo? I have one on an Alex Singer, and it’s great. Pros: Cheaper than a dyno hub and wheel, very low draw, ZERO drag in the “off” position, great German engineering, works with any wheel. Cons: Sits outside on the frame, where it might be subject to damage (not a problem for me in several years of use), makes a quiet whirring noise when running, requires a small clamp to attach to the frame.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[Brian Forsee]

Eric,

Do you have any thoughts/comparisons on the SON vs SP for low speeds? I'm looking to get a dynamo set up for single track bikepacking applications. I believe the general consensus is the SON is best at low speeds.

Thanks in advance!

-Brian in STL, MO

[Jason Glenn]

Thanks, everyone, for your informative responses.  As Eric said, lots to think about.

Intrigued by the Velogical dynamo for my homer, since I have a wheelset for it already.  Since I need to build wheels for the Atlantis, I have a sense that the dyno hub might make more sense, although I gather that there's a case to be made that there's still a case to be made for the Velogical in that case too -- just spent a few minutes on their website, and it looks like an interesting product.  Again, lots to consider.

[Will Boericke]

I'll offer the budget perspective.  I have two setups on my commuters, one is a Jtek branded Kasai from Sjs cycles, the other a Shimano something-or-other.  Both run B&M front and rear lights.  Each was about $50.  Both have seen thousands of nasty miles in New England winter.  No issues with either.

[Brian Turner]

I recall reading on Peter White's site that you should be careful mixing velogical dynos with certain lights depending on their requirements. He specifically mentioned the Edelux and Edelux II as being ones you *shouldn't use with velogical, or other experimental dyno generators.

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 11:51:06 AM UTC-4 jkg...@gmail.com wrote:

[Eric Norris]

I’ve been running my Velogical with an Edelux II headlight for several years, with no ill effects.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[Wesley]

I'm using a Shimano dyno that I bought off this list for like $50 - it's great! I didn't notice a difference from a non-dyno hub to this one, and so I can't imagine noticing the difference if I switched to a SON. Mine is one of the N72 that looks asymmetrical (all the dyno parts are on one side of the hub).

-W

[Sam McDermott]

I got a wheel built by Peter White last year, and we discussed my use cases, which sound similar to yours, on the phone. He said the only reason to get a SON was if I was commuting rain or shine in a cold, wet environment, and otherwise the Shimano or Panasonic (who not-so-long-ago bought out a production facility that had previously been branded Sanyo, I believe) will cut the mustard. I had a 6-bolt disc that I wanted to use, so I went with the Panasonic instead of Shimano, and it's been everything I hoped for. Only a few hundred miles on it so far, but it sounds consistent with what others have said, and I'm happy with the >$100 I saved.

-Sam

[Jason Glenn]

Thanks, all.  This was super helpful and informative.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I agree with all that has been said so far.  I have a Shimano dynohub, an SP dyno and an SON.  The Shimano is known to have slightly more drag than the SON and the SP is pretty close to the SON. I have been commuting on my Shimano for years (and previously on the SP for years on another bike) with no problems, but it doesn't get cold in CA and it doesn't rain that much. I would go with the SON for weather-related reasons (as mentioned earlier) and style-related--it looks nicer, but I don't think sturdiness of wheel or reliability is a major concern (unless you are really hard on your wheels), as all of these hubs have been ridden for thousands of miles and I have not heard of any spoke/hub breaks or other issues from any of the brands.

The only other reason for the SON that I can think of is if you are riding at your limit or where a few extra minutes and slightly less effort means getting more rest on a long ride (e.g. a brevet), then that would be worth it for me (I have one on my rando bike--the extra bling doesn't hurt too :-).

Toshi in Oakland, CA

[Tom M]

This may or may not influence your decision, but The Pro's Closet has several SP dynamo Exposure Lights combinations for sale: https://www.theproscloset.com/pages/search-results-page?q=exposure%20lights%20revo%20dynamo. I'm a fan of Exposure lights, so I went with this combination for several wheel sets I built up. I also have a SON wheel for my gravel bike. I felt some resistance with the SON initially, but it quickly went away. With the SP, I definitely feel drag or whatever through the handlebars, but can't say whether if affects my speed. I don't know if that's an anomaly with that particular dynamo because I don't have enough miles on the other SP wheels to say. As far as rims go, the gravel bike got Velocity Blunt SS in 650b; the road bike got a Pacenti Brevit, also in 650b. I use an exposure rear light, which plugs into the front light; it will stay lit for some time after a stop, which is a nice benefit.

Enjoy wheel building.

Take care,

Tom Milani

Alexandria, VA

[Wesley]

On "enjoy wheel building":

One benefit of disc brakes is that I can easily build my own wheels and have good braking performance. Rim brakes are a bit more particular about the wheel being true and round.

-W

[J J]

This is an enlightening and timely discussion about dynamos, as I'm shopping for one myself. Thank you.

Has anyone had experience with Velocity's dynamo hubs? I came across them haphazardly. I also wonder about Velocity's rear hubs.

Best wishes.

[maxcr]

Another shout out for the Shutter Precision which is what James at Analog spec'd for my partner's Susie as a lower cost alternative to a SON28 - it's been rock solid for her so far, but tbh it's seen light use.

Max

[Justin Williams]

I've got lots of miles on a Shimano 3n72, limited experience with Kasai RB (150 miles?), and hands on but no riding experience with SON 28 (which is on my partner's bike). I've also used a Sturmey Archer drum brake/dynamo hub.

My hot take is that all of them do their job great: powering really nice lights and freeing me from thinking about charging lights or bringing batteries. The difference between dynamo hub and no dynamo hub is miles wider than the difference between the three dynos I've used. 

Some differences I've noticed include:

My totally untested, purely self-validating impression is that the Kasai has less drag than the Shimano when the lights are off and on. But is that real? I don't honestly know. I couldn't say what the difference is with the SON, because I haven't ridden it. But people who test these things tell me the SON has measurably less drag. I believe them. I also don't believe my Shimano dynamo hub is the thing slowing me down! But I don't ride brevets.

The SON costs twice as much as the Kasai, and the Kasai and Shimano were nearly equivalent in cost. I recently chose to save $150 and get a Kasai because I wanted to spend that money on lights and other parts. And making that decision helped me buy other budget parts for the wheel build (Sun CR18). I just wouldn't feel right lacing a SON to a CR18. 

Others have rightly pointed out that the Kasai/Shutter flange spacing seems needlessly narrow. I suppose only time will tell if that will be a problem. For my 170 pound self who tends to pack light-ish on camping trips and doesn't ride rough trails, I doubt it. If I was a heavier rider carrying lots of gear, I might spring for the SON. 

The SON is, to my eye, the prettiest one to look at. For me, riding in a big city, that seemed like a liability rather than an asset. But I'm running a Deore rear hub and Deore v brakes and used parts from other builds. If I was running a white industries rear hub and Paul V brakes and rarely locked up on the street, I might think differently. For the record: I think the Kasai if a very handsome hub. Just not as jewel-like as the SON.

Really, I don't think you can go wrong with all the modern dyno hubs! If money's no object, it seems like you can't go wrong with the SON. The Kasai is really nice. The Shimano works great too.

[peec...@yahoo.com]

I have Velogical dynamo on my Sam Hillborne.  Love its elegance and the fact that I didn't have to change my front wheel and hub when I wanted to add dynamo lighting.  One other con to consider is the potential for slipping when riding in wet conditions.  The  Velogical has provided adequate light even when wet however.  Tim Petersen

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 10:19:02 AM UTC-5 campyo...@me.com wrote:

[Justin Kennedy (Brooklyn, NY)]

I've had good experience with several budget Shimano hubs (never any issues) as well as the Panasonic hub, which I have on a cargo bike that sits outside year-round in rain/snow/heat/humidity. You can get them from Peter White and maybe some other places, too. 

https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/panahub.php

[greenteadrinkers]

Speaking as someone with a few SON28 wheels, and the type of riding you described, I'd suggest considering a $30 Paul Gino mount and a few $35 Cygolite lights a go before investing $500+ on a SON28 and Edelux headlight (not including the cost for the cox-axial connector, rim, rim tape, spokes, and nipples). But, I totally get it, Dyno hubs are awesome! Personally, I hate having to look at the wiring and zip ties.

Best

Scott

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 9:09:10 AM UTC-4 peec...@yahoo.com wrote:

[Will M]

Jason,

The best data I've found for objectively comparing output power and drag of different dynamo hubs across a range of speeds is here.  https://www.cyclingabout.com/dynamo-hub-power-drag-testing-schmidt-son-shutter-precision-shimano/

I live car-free in an east-coast city.  Due to probability of theft, I went with less expensive 6V-3W Shimano dynohubs on my VO commuter bike and my Yuba extended-wheelbase cargo bike.  I had Cygolites in the past, but discovered the elegance of dynohub lighting -- lights are permanently mounted (theft prevention) and they always work (nothing to recharge).  Less hassle.

To reduce zipties and wires, on my Quickbeam I went with this 6V-2.4W Shimano dynamo hub which powers only a front light (this battery-powered rear light on the fender).  If I were to do it again, I'd go with a 6V-3W hub with rear wiring using this elegant approach proposed by Igor at VO.

The "gotcha" with the Shimano dynamo hubs is that the wire connector cap and cover is neither waterproof nor robust.  I've lost lights in more than 1 rain storm.  The connector cap has torn off more than once in normal riding.  When I think about the value of one's time -- and the time spent maintaining the connector -- it starts to seem myopic not going with the SON. :-)

You asked about rims and spokes.  There are so many dynamo hub options out there (disc brake vs. rim brake; 32h vs. 36h vs. XXh; black vs. silver; etc. etc.), so you can get whatever you want/need.  I saved a ton of money trolling eBay remembering what Grant wrote in a Riv Reader more than a decade ago: "Mismatched rims are cool."

Cheers,

Will M

NYC 

[Patrick Moore]

The SP on my Matthews dirt road bike works fine at low speeds. 

This one is as smooth as my SON; an earlier SP did vibrate a bit more. My various Shimanos were as smooth as the SON too.

My SON is the 20 R or whatever the small-wheel model used to be called; isn't this now the "Deluxe"? At any rate, it's made for smaller wheels, so if you choose SON you might want to choose the 28 for slower speeds.

BTW, I've had absolutely no problems with the narrow SP on 2 bikes, currently a 700C off road bike with 32 spoke front wheel.

[Patrick Moore]

FWIW, Lael Wilcox, long-distance/rough terrain/all weather rider extraordinaire, uses, or used to use a SP hub with her K-Lite. At least, she used this setup when she broke the Continental Divide (or was it cross-continental?) record.

I also use a SP with my K-Lite and I can't feel any drag or notchiness compared to my SON 20R, but this may be due to the momentum or inertia of the very tall and fat (29 1/2" X 2.4") -- albeit very light -- SP wheel versus the short (25.6" X 1.6") -- also very light -- SON wheel.

[Jacob Lopez]

I'm surprised I don't see more love for the Kasai hubs.  I have a Kasai hub and Kasai Trail Beam on my Clem and I love it, although I don't have a reference for other systems.  It's a relatively affordable combo.  It was my first-ever dyno hub/light setup and I absolutely love that for the first time I can actually see the road at night - not to mention not having to remember to charge lights. I always loved night riding, and now I love it even more.  Regardless of perfect optimization, welcome to the world of dyno hubs.  It's a magnificent place to be, and I'm sure you'll be stoked with any of these recommendations.

Jacob

[ascpgh]

Good points. My initial SON 28 was for my commuter that sees it all. I'd be embarrassed to show a picture of it now after last week's wet commutes, but that's what's proven to be the thing with the SON, it just keeps working. Long ago I learned from reading Jobst Brandt to use the best parts to build your wheels. Never easy to replace a part of a built wheel. I learned the expense of a wheel part failure with aluminum nipples.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh