Upgrade to Sam Hillborne from a Surly Corss-Check?

[Jeffrey Sincich]

Hi all! I am considering finally upgrading from my Surly Cross-Check to a Sam Hillborne. Has anyone done this, and if so, what are the improvements? Were you happy you did so? I currently ride a 54cm Corss-Check. I mainly commute to work, but some short bike tours are in the future. Thanks in advance!

[Brady Smith]

Sounds like a great idea to me. I have a Jamis Aurora that I've rebuilt with a bunch of Riv-esque parts over the years, and I've always hoped to swap out the frame for a Sam when the time came. My only reservation is that the Jamis is my daily commuter, and it manages a nice balance of being nondescript but also a pleasure to ride. I have secure bike parking at my school, but a Rivendell as a daily commuter in a big city feels like more of a risk than I'd like. That said, a lot of the people I encounter riding my similarly Riv-ed out BMC Monster Cross think it's an antique I rescued from a garage sale, so maybe a similarly appointed Sam wouldn't attract as much attention as you'd think.

[Lyman Labry]

Hi,

I sold my Cross-Check this past spring and bought a Homer.  The ride and the fit is superior. The staff at Rivbike were awesome dialing in my measurements and expectations.  The Hillborne is similar to the Homer. I believe you will be pleased with the results.

Lyman in Austin

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 9:49 AM Jeffrey Sincich <jeffrey...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all! I am considering finally upgrading from my Surly Cross-Check to a Sam Hillborne. Has anyone done this, and if so, what are the improvements? Were you happy you did so? I currently ride a 54cm Corss-Check. I mainly commute to work, but some short bike tours are in the future. Thanks in advance!

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[maxcr]

I did this many years ago and never looked back. I had a frankenstem on my cross-check to get the bars where I wanted them. To me the Sam felt far more comfortable and stable, on top of that I outfitted it with fatter tires and a nicer rack which made the bike more functional for things beyond my commute.

If you're thinking about it and you can afford, you should do it - I'm confident you won't regret it.

Max

[Shoji Takahashi]

I'm a third to have made the move from CC to Riv (Homer) many years ago now. Riv ride and handling are much better for me.

Good luck, shoji

[Mark Roland]

Interesting question. The way it is posed makes it sound as though there is a checklist you can look at to compare point by point, then tally it up and somehow calculate whether the additional cost is worth it. But most bicycles generally don't work in that linear fashion. It truly is the old "whole greater than the sum of the parts" cliche. And what is going to work best for any particular rider.

While I've been a customer of Rivendell for a long time, until recently, I never had one of their bikes, for two main reasons.First is I like older bikes, and I generally don't like buying things new if I don't have to. Second, I always felt I could get close to Rivendell ride quality with the older bikes.

But in the last, I don't know, 10 years or so, that is probably not as true, especially for the Hillibikes and the newer iterations of some of the older models. When my Susie's fork arrives and meets its frame and gets shipped across the country, I will have 3 Rivendells, all Hillies.

The happy part, while subjective, does say a lot. My Clem L makes me a little happier I suppose than my 1984 Trek 830. For no particular reasons that could be ticked off a list--certainly not because I paid way more for it, or because it's in better condition. A more luxurious, deliberate but still plenty peppy ride feel, maybe would describe a difference? The Clems are based on old vintage mtbs like the 830, and lots of Surlys take design cues from Rivendells.  If there was no Clem L, I would be blissfully riding around on my not as nice Trek.

I'm sure the Surly does everything you could want it to do, and gives you some happiness to boot. The Rivendell might give you additional happiness, as reported by others here.  As long as you are not constantly worrying if it will get stolen or damaged. But that's an inside job! Good luck.

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 10:49:00 AM UTC-4, Jeffrey Sincich wrote:

[Nathan Mattia]

Hello Jeffrey

This year I finally stepped up and built up a Hillborne after Rivving up a 1992 Bridgestone RB-T, a 1993 Bridgestone XO-2, and a 1983 Specialized Expedition.

You can read all about and see those pics at 

PipesBikesandLeather.com

Once I rode the Hillborne, all of those others faded into the memory of my affections. The Sam is that good.

[Jason Fuller]

First off, there's nothing you couldn't do on the CrossCheck that you could do on the Hillborne. Both are exemplary do-it-all bikes. But if you did make the switch, I can personally attest you'll find that: 
- The Hillborne rides smoother

- The Hillborne tracks nicer

- The Hillborne feels more intuitively responsive

These are a result of the geometry and tubing of the Hillborne that are simply superior to the Crosscheck. I love Surly stuff and they share a rare trait with Rivendell in that they don't seem to age, but I find their tubing selection and geometry lacks the refinement that may not make much difference in city riding, but starts to really be noticeable as you spend more time in the saddle. 

Ideal scenario I'd keep the Crosscheck as a lockup bike and maybe simplify the build, and make the Hillborne the fancy bike. What a great combo. 

[masmojo]

I had a Cross Check and for the money it's really hard to beat.
There's only one thing I really didn't like about it. The top tube was a bit short, this really showed itself in the area of toe overlap and you had to use a really long stem to run Albatross handlebars. Running fenders was doable but only just. On the positive side it was one of the most comfortable bikes to pedal, for whatever reason my seat position relative to the pedals was just perfect! I eventually took the Albatross bars off and switched to a Jitensa (or similar) bar which the second owner kept, were still on it as it passed to the third owner & are likely still on it.
A Sam will be a similar bike while being completely different at the same time. It will cure many of the things I found "off" about the CC AND it'll look great!

[Surlyprof]

I agree with many of the responses, especially Jason’s:

- The Hillborne rides smoother
- The Hillborne tracks nicer
- The Hillborne feels more intuitively responsive

I had a Cross Check with mustache bars for a couple of years as my “discount Riv wannabe” and was never thrilled with the ride. It always felt a little dead to me. I also spent a lot of money trying to make it more Riv-like including buying a new fork to get the bars up higher. That made it look ridiculous but was more comfortable. When I finally bought my Hillborne, I regretted the time and money I wasted on the Surly. I learned a lot about modifying a bike, but that was an expensive lesson. The Hillborne’s ride was SO MUCH nicer. It is much more stable and responsive (without being at all twitchy). It is the most comfortable bike I’ve ever owned. It could handle a slightly wider tire (45s on the Sam, 42s on the CC) . And, as an added bonus, no more toe-verlap. I had a lot of problems with that on the Cross Check.

Wish I’d just bought the Hillborne first for many more years of more enjoyable riding.

John
Niles, CA

[Carla Waugh]

I have had both and I liked them both for different reasons.

[RichS]

Jeffrey,

As a current Sam owner for five years and before that a Cross Check owner, the Sam wins hands down for the same reasons others have given here. If you don't feel the bike will be secure locked up at your place of employment, then by all means keep the CC as a commuter and the Sam for other rides and short tours.

Best,

Rich in ATL 

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 10:49:00 AM UTC-4, Jeffrey Sincich wrote:

[☆ Paul ☆]

Jeffrey,

If you are interested I have a 56cm Sam Hillborne twin-top-tube frame/fork set I'm eventually going to get around to selling. Also have most of the parts to build it up into a finished bicycle.

You probably need a 34cm PBH to fit on this frame, if it's of interest.

Best, Paul

[Mark Roland]

If a 34cm PBH is needed to fit this bicycle, you may want to try asking at the little boys and girls table. Unless maybe you were actually thinking 84cm?

[R Shannon]

. . .or 34-inches

Best,

Rich in ATL

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 12, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Mark Roland <absolut...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[☆ Paul ☆]

It's a really small bike. It's made for Hobbits.

Seriously though, yes, you'll need a 34 INCH PBH to fit on the Sam.

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[Toshi Takeuchi]

I went from a Surly Pacer to the Homer, and saw a huge improvement in handling, comfort and enjoyment.  I love Surly products and they are great for the price (my son is riding a cross-check), but the Riv upgrade is definitely worth it!

Toshi

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[christian poppell]

I mean, you could just do this... 

Sorry if that's your Hillborne :)

On Wednesday, August 12, 2020 at 12:09:03 PM UTC-7, ttoshi wrote:

I went from a Surly Pacer to the Homer, and saw a huge improvement in handling, comfort and enjoyment.  I love Surly products and they are great for the price (my son is riding a cross-check), but the Riv upgrade is definitely worth it!

Toshi

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:20 AM Shoji Takahashi <shoji.t...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm a third to have made the move from CC to Riv (Homer) many years ago now. Riv ride and handling are much better for me.

Good luck, shoji

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 12:07:55 PM UTC-4, maxcr wrote:

I did this many years ago and never looked back. I had a frankenstem on my cross-check to get the bars where I wanted them. To me the Sam felt far more comfortable and stable, on top of that I outfitted it with fatter tires and a nicer rack which made the bike more functional for things beyond my commute.

If you're thinking about it and you can afford, you should do it - I'm confident you won't regret it.

Max

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 10:49:00 AM UTC-4, Jeffrey Sincich wrote:

Hi all! I am considering finally upgrading from my Surly Cross-Check to a Sam Hillborne. Has anyone done this, and if so, what are the improvements? Were you happy you did so? I currently ride a 54cm Corss-Check. I mainly commute to work, but some short bike tours are in the future. Thanks in advance!

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[Jeffrey S]

Awesome! Glad to hear you are happy with the choice!

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 8:55:34 AM UTC-7, Tirebiter ATX wrote:

Hi,

I sold my Cross-Check this past spring and bought a Homer.  The ride and the fit is superior. The staff at Rivbike were awesome dialing in my measurements and expectations.  The Hillborne is similar to the Homer. I believe you will be pleased with the results.

Lyman in Austin

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 9:49 AM Jeffrey Sincich <jeffrey...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all! I am considering finally upgrading from my Surly Cross-Check to a Sam Hillborne. Has anyone done this, and if so, what are the improvements? Were you happy you did so? I currently ride a 54cm Corss-Check. I mainly commute to work, but some short bike tours are in the future. Thanks in advance!

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[Timothy Hurley]

I’ve had a Sam Hillborne for 11 years and have ridden a Cross Check a bunch of times. I agree they are functionally very similar, but the way they feel is night and day. There’s nothing bad about the way the Cross Check feels, but the S.H. is the most comfortable yet quick bike I’ve ever ridden. It’s like a fast moving easy chair. All this being said, Cross Check is a great bike too.

[Andy Beichler]

I am curious about the finish of a Sam Hillborne.  I lucked into a 1984 Paramount Touring a year or so ago and got my first up close view of what a high end frame looks like.  The finish on it is top notch.  The lug lines are very clean.  No stray file marks or tiny drips of brass (silver?).  The connection where the seat and chain stays join the drop out are fantastic.  There is no evidence of a plug on the end of it.  I don't necessarily expect the same level of finish on a Sam Hillborne as I expect on a much more expensive bike, but I would like to think the finish is better than I would find on a Soma or Schwinn.  What is the finish on a Sam Hillborne like?

[Jeffrey S]

Thanks! That's going to be too large for me though.

[R Shannon]

Andy,

As a Sam Hillborne and Waterford built Atlantis owner, I can't discern a difference in the nicely done paint, brazing or general appearance on either one. 

Best,

Rich in ATL

On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 9:55 PM Andy Beichler <andyan...@windstream.net> wrote:

I am curious about the finish of a Sam Hillborne.  I lucked into a 1984 Paramount Touring a year or so ago and got my first up close view of what a high end frame looks like.  The finish on it is top notch.  The lug lines are very clean.  No stray file marks or tiny drips of brass (silver?).  The connection where the seat and chain stays join the drop out are fantastic.  There is no evidence of a plug on the end of it.  I don't necessarily expect the same level of finish on a Sam Hillborne as I expect on a much more expensive bike, but I would like to think the finish is better than I would find on a Soma or Schwinn.  What is the finish on a Sam Hillborne like?

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[spencer robinson]

I have a Sam and have owned a few Cross Checks.

They are different bikes. The geometry is different, BB height is the big difference, I think.

The cross check might be the one bike that has served so many people for different uses.

Affordable, tough, versatile.  

The Sam is a wonderful, well mannered, country bike. I think better geo for getting the bars up etc.

I always felt like I was riding ON a CrossCheck and felt link I was riding IN a Sam.

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 10:49:00 AM UTC-4, Jeffrey Sincich wrote:

[masmojo]

I agree with a couple of points here.
First the idea and reality of trying to get another bike to be like a cheaper Rivendell. I've had limited success with this as well; a CrossCheck, an old 650B Raleigh Mountain Tour, Kogswell PR and a Rawland Drakkar. Out of all of them the Rawland came the closest and actually was better in some ways. But, at the end of the day I would have saved myself tons of aggravation (& money) bu just biting the bullet and getting a Rivendell!
I also chuckled when I read the part about riding "ON" a CrossCheck. That's exactly how I would describe it! One thing to keep in mind, but just going by the name it's obvious the CC was conceived as a cyclocross frame. As a result it has a shortish top tube, higher bottom bracket, short chain stays, etc.
It's debatable whether it's dumb luck or pure alchemy that it excels at so many other uses at all!
Actually, with a few more years experience under my belt I likely wouldn't do the CrossCheck again if I was making a budget choice. I'd go Crust Bombora or possibly a SOMA? The Saga and Wolverine's are intriguing options as well.

[Andy Beichler]

Thank you very much, Rich.

[Jeffrey S]

"I always felt like I was riding ON a CrossCheck and felt link I was riding IN a Sam." - Love that!

[Richard Rios]

I've had both. Cross check is a RAD bike. Pros didnt worry about it as much, felt a little quicker handeling wise. Funner where quicker feeling handling might apply. Cons not as pretty, not as stable feeling.

Sam H is a RAD bike. Pros bars up higher more easily. Prettier, more stable feeling. Less tiring to ride / better comfort.

So as with anything YMMV. But I wouldnt hesitate to buy either. Both can be alot of fun neither is slow depending on tires, setup and your legs. Both lean towards durability over light weight. If I had to tip the scales one way or the other I'd say this, longer more casual riding Sam. More energetic playful shorter rides cross check. Either can do both of course but if I had to pick. And I would be very happy either way.❤

[Mark Roland]

Then again, I believe the Paramount is a Schwinn ;^)

[Robert Hakim]

It seems many of the points I would raise to answer your question have tactfully been answered my most other members.

Having owned a CX check and the Hillborne I will echo that I was more comfortable and more satisfied with the ride quality. I never loaded up my Sam with bags for a short tour as I did with my old Surly but I have no doubts it would perform well over the same set of surfaces.

Perhaps the only area I feel like the CX check outgunned the Hillborne was pushing the bike's limits on singletrack trails. I believe the more robust-feeling threadless stem, stiffer tubing, and larger diameter steerer tube contributed to the confidence of the CX check compared to a tall quill stem on my Riv.

One last thing I enjoyed about the Riv is the people I met through the bike. I had more curious people approach me to talk about it than I ever did with my cross check. I did enjoy many of those brief conversations with strangers interested in my handsome tuxedo black Hillborne than I ever did with my old Surly.

In short, I don't think you would go wrong by switching to the Sam.

[Andy Beichler]

You are correct, but this Schwinn was built in Waterford.  I also have an 85 Schwinn Voyageur which is very similar in terms of geometry.  However, in terms of finish, there is no comparison.  Make no mistake, the Voyageur is a fine bike but it lacks the polish of the Paramount.