Question for people who have ridden Compass/Rene Hearse tires

[Chris L]

I just put a set of 55mm Antelope Hill tires on a set of Dyad rims and installed them on my Hunqapillar.  

The tires, at slower speeds, have a TON of self-steer and in anything other than a straight line, they are LOUD.   

Riding on a 3' wide sidewalk, just slightly turning the handlebar results in the very loud sound of the tires.  Is this something that decreases as the tires get broken in?  I assume it's one of the tread patterns  that may be more "grippy" to help in turns. 

The self steering is awful.  I'm talking worse than a 1984 mountain bike with Repack geometry.  

I started the tires at 40-45 psi, which as a 380 lb rider, is where I generally run tires this size.  During the ride, I lowered the pressure on the front a little, but didn't notice any appreciable difference.  

I've run 38mm tires and two sets of 50mm + tires on the Hunq and never experienced self steering at any level.

[Addison Quarles]

What kind of noise are the tires making? Like a rubber skooching on a slick floor sound? 

The closest to the Antelope Hill that I've ridden is the Switchback Hill, which is 650b x 48mm. I've had them on three bikes over the years and would regularly pump them up to around 45-50psi once a month and not top off for another month so by the time I remembered to reinflate they would be down to around 20psi. This was in part due to negligence, but was also sort of a running experiment to see how the bike handled at different tire pressures. I didn't keep very good notes during this highly scientific study, but I do remember that by the 3 week mark the bike would dive into turns in a real scary way, perhaps something like you're experiencing with the self-steer. At higher pressures I never felt any handling anomalies, but maybe that's because I tended towards higher pressures. 

Have you considered bumping up to 50-55 psi? I imagine what you're feeling is that big ol' tire flopping over onto its side, bumping the steering one way or the other. My last Switchback Hill bike had 55mm rims and the think tracked like a freight train with no tire flop at all. 
Best of luck! 

[Chris L]

Thanks for the input!

I will definately play around with pressure.  I dropped the pressure again, without measuring, and the tire was bottoming out so I checked and it was at 20 psi.  I aired it up to 35 psi and rode a little bit and it felt better.  I'll try going to max pressure as well and see what happens. 

I was very surprised because after years of reading about the magic of RH tires, I was expecting a dreamy ride.  I do recall reading people talking about the fatter RH tires having a small sweet spot of pressure  for bounce vs cush, but I don't recall discussions of the actual handling.  

[Garth]

Just ride and play with tire pressures.

Find your own sweet spot, nobody can ride your bike like you.

If no sweet spot is found, yeah so what ? Not everyone finds Compass tires to their liking you know. With high cost comes high expectations and even higher self-justifications.

[Joe Bernard]

I feel that an opportunity to use the phrase high-falutin was missed here. 

[Ray Varella]

Chris,

 You don’t mention which casing you purchased but the lighter weight sidewalls require more pressure than many tires with heavier casings. 

From your description, it sounds like your pressure is too low. 

I’ve had similar experiences when I have had a slow leak on a ride and could feel the handling change as the pressure dropped. 

At 380 pounds you might try raising the pressure a bit and lower it if the ride seems too harsh. 

Ray

[Chris L]

I forgot to mention that I went with Endurance casing, which is the same threads as the ultralight, but more densely packed.  

When it cools down later today and then tomorrow morning, I'll play with pressure extremes and see where that gets me. 

[brendonoid]

Interesting that this topic has come up. I have just put 300kms on some Antelope Hills on a 57 Appaloosa. 

When I first put them on I was dismayed at the wheel flop or 'self steering'. I thought I had wasted a lot of money and was pretty bitter. I have run them consistently at 30psi on road and gravel. I weigh 80kgs.

Don't panic. Once the weird waxy coating on the new rubber wears off, for me this was around 150kms in, the weird handling disappears. Seems that the tackiness of whatever this residue is imparts strange grip as the tread pattern transistions going into a turn.

See how you go.

[Chris L]

This sounds exactly like what I'm experiencing, both in the wheel flop and the sound volume when the tires are not going in a straight line.  

Thanks for sharing.  Knowing this may be the case makes it much easier to stick with the tires long enough for the issue to resolve itself.

[Geir Bentzen]

I'm running the 700C x 44 Snoqualmie Pass Endurance on my 62 cm Hunqapillar now. Earlier I had a set of 38 mm Barlow Pass with the ultralight casing. I also have a set of 50 mm Schwalbe Marathon for it. And I have used one type and size of tire up front and a different in the back. I even had an old 35 mm cheap tire on in the front for a long ride once. They all worked fine on the bike, and I'm a heavy rider. But I do pump them up to between 50 and 60 psi and I have noticed issues when I simply don't care and continue riding the air pressure down to the 20s. Having ridden bikes for 55 years I believe I can claim that issues with steering are normal when the tire pressure is too low for your weight and may be expected with all tires. Even with good pressure up front and too low in the rear the bike will start to wander. Heavier people need more air pressure to keep the tires from deforming too much. I agree with the others here who advise you too experiment with the tire pressure and find your own personal level for whichever set of tires you happen to use. In general that goes for everything with a bike; make the bike feel good and work well for you and disregard all the norms of the day. Those will be different another day.....

[Jason Fuller]

in the meantime, I'd bump the pressure up a little bit so it's not super annoying!  But yeah, had similar experience with Rat Trap Pass EL's and they're good now - still kinda loud for a slick, but more of a hum.  Oddly my Babyshoe Pass are dead quiet 

[spencer robinson]

Chris, pump the tires up to max recommend psi…i bet the weld steer goes away…I think the guys at compass/Rene Hearse are like 130 - 150 lbs soakin wet…you will need a higher pressure to find the sweet spot. 

[Nick Payne]

I have Antelope Hills with the light casing on my Appaloosa, and haven't noticed any steering oddities/problems. I run them at 25psi front 35psi rear, but I only weigh ~145lbs. If you weigh 380, I'd suggest try raising the pressure a bit - say 55psi.

Nick

[Saturday Mark]

Thats a pretty fat tire for a Dyad. I would submit that your usage case is probably different than a lot here, so this is a bunch of speculating. 

I assume you aren't running tubeless?

That narrow of a rim usually calls for higher tire pressure to prevent tire from rolling off.

The answer: (RH tires + your load * rim width subtracted from tubeless equation/riding surface+ knobs per sq inch = your ideal pressure)  

I have never heard anything but good reports on the RH knobbies, so I would think there is a sweet spot somewhere, where is Jan?

[Chris L]

Yes, I am running with tubes and the Dyad is at the lower end of RH's recommended rim width, but I've seen Jan state several times that rim width doesn't matter with supple tires, so I wasn't concerned about it.  The narrower rim may require a higher pressure, like you and others have suggested.  

Also, the Antelope Hill is RH's road tread, although the thought has passed thru my mind that maybe the knobby version wouldn't have this issue.  

One thing that strikes me (and surprises me) is that the Antelope Hill is HUGE, even on a Dyad rim.  I've looked at tons of photos of Antelope Hills and Snoqualmie Passes on bikes, to get an idea of their relative sizes, but I'm used to tires measuring below their stated widths, sometimes by quite a lot.   

The RH tires do live up to their "low rolling resistance" reputation.  Man, they feel fast.  Also, my last tire was a 53 mm Nine Line knobby, which was surprisingly fast for a big knobby, but in a really slow speed, tight angle turn (which I do a lot of in my riding), I often felt like the front tire/wheel was in the way and the bike was about to "trip" over them, if that makes sense.  The Antelope Hill, although it's bigger, doesn't feel that way and in fact, significantly reduced my tight turn radius.  I don't know if that's an intertia thing due to lower overall weight, or something else.  But I do like it. 

[Chris L]

Okay, I braved the heat and HUMIDITY and aired the front to 50 psi and the back to a little higher than that and the problem is solved.  The tire handles normally and I only hear the loud "tacky" rubber sound in a pretty significant lean.  

Now to put some miles on them and see how durable they are for me. 

[Patrick Moore]

IME, this sort of self-steering and "wallow" at lower pressures is one disadvantage of tires over a certain (say 35 mm? 38mm?) width on pavement; dirt is another matter entirely because the tire does not "grab" the surface in the same way, and a reason that one might well lose some of the cushioning effect of fatter tires on pavement.

I certainly experience this with 61s and even with 41s: keep them low enough to benefit fully from the cushioning effect (+/- 20 psi for 60s, at any rate, no more than 25 and ~35 for the 42s -- I'm 170) and they grab and squirm and wallow in corners. My 2020 Matthews, with Naches Passes, does not handle as crisply with 28 mm Elk Passes (~50 psi; 45 if I don't have to worry about large expansion cracks) even at 45 psi, and certainly not at 35 psi which is where the cushioning effect is greatest.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

So, fatter is not entirely a free lunch.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Ryan M.]

I have these tires on a Niner Sir9 that I setup single speed and never really experienced self steering issues with them. I run them as a gravel tire though, so that may have something to do with not feeling it or maybe since it's a single speed I'm always out of the saddle? Don't really know for sure.  The rims I'm using them on are wider than the Dyad too...I wonder if that has something to do with it.

The worst self steering setup I've ever experiences was a Surly Ice Cream Truck with whatever stock tires it had...dang near felt like it was going wherever it wanted to and I was just along for the ride.

[ascpgh]

Really nice pneumatic trail article in the last BQ talks about these effects as tires get wider, on pavement and off. The diagrams are great clarifiers too. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Chris L]

Andy, can you specify if it was issue 74 or 75?  Both have listed articles that might fit the topic and 74 sounds more likely, but it wasn't the last issue.  

I subscribed to BQ for several years but as the magazine became less about bikes and more about Jan's rides, I lost interest.  I'll order the relevant back issue here and see if I might want to re-subscribe.  

On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 4:55:08 AM UTC-5 ascpgh wrote:

Really nice pneumatic trail article in the last BQ talks about these effects as tires get wider, on pavement and off. The diagrams are great clarifiers too. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Hugh Smitham]

Chris,

Here's what I've noticed but first a little background.

 I have run Compass tires 42mm but have yet to run Rene Herse tires. I do have Panaracer Gravelkings in 48mm. I believe Rene Herse uses the Panaracer manufacturing to make their tires. I think that's what I have read but hey maybe I'm wrong. Either way they are similar if not exactly the same. I also run 650b x 2.8 Schwalbe G-ones. I have converted over to tubeless on all my tires and I weigh 175#. I have noticed at low pressure on the Gravelkings below 20# the side wall collapses with a squirrely feeling. I've noticed the same on my G-ones as well. Literally, a few extra psi and it goes away. IIRC, the Compass tires I used to run on my A. Homer I ran with tubes and it seemed to be about the same. I think others that have mentioned adding some pressure are right.

In terms of the noise. I have never heard any weird noise. If no one has recommended this yet and I haven't gone through all the comments, maybe shoot a short video of what your hearing? Obviously safety is your first priory so don't film and get in an accident.

Hugh   

On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 7:48:55 AM UTC-7 Chris L wrote:

[lconley]

Using the Ideal Tire Pressure spreadsheet (based upon the chart linked from the RH website) and assuming 30 lb bike for a total of 410 lb and 45%/55% front rear weight distribution - it comes up with 47 psi front / 57 psi rear for 55mm wide and 48 psi front / 58 psi rear for 54mm wide. The calculation is based upon actual tire width on the actual rim used, not the advertised width. Add a few more pounds and subtract a few more centimeters and you could easily be at 50 psi front / 60 psi rear.

Laing

Delray Beach FL

On Saturday, June 12, 2021 at 10:48:55 AM UTC-4 Chris L wrote:

[Chris L]

Since increasing the pressure, as everyone here recommended, I'm now enjoying the tires quite a lot.  Tomorrow, I plan to air up the tires and it will be interesting to see how much the pressure has decreased, as a little flop is coming back.  My impression is that they (RH ultra-light tubes) may need more consistent air pressure adjustments than I'm used to.  Also, I've put off buying Compass/RH tires for years, due to fear of flats, but the Endurance casing gives me some piece of mind and a Zefal pump is on it's way.  

I will say the tires have reignited my love of riding my bike.  They handle extremely well in slow speed maneuvers and even better in higher speed situations.   The traction in tight curves is amazing.

Gratuitous pic of the Hunqapillar from yesterday's ride:

[ascpgh]

Chris, it's an article in issue 75 following the one about performance of knobby tires.

I have been seeing the thickness of the issues does reflect more of Jan's rides but as an engineer and bicyclist he cannot help letting the riding become reporting on how the hardware handled things I like that perspective and I have cached away blurbs from those several ride write-ups for my own ends. I particularly like his realization about underbiking in this issue; he doesn't like it and would enjoy a ride more if he had enough bike. I apply this in reverse in that I don't want to ride a mountain bike for 6-8 hours so I ride where my 650B x 42 rules the terrain and I'm happy as a result.

Andy Cheatham

Pitttsburgh

[Chris L]

Andy,

Thanks for the clarification.  I ordered both issues and look forward to reading them and maybe re-subscribing.

Also, my Endurance casings had their first test today.  I rode thru about 900 feet of grass and when I got back on pavement, I heard a clicking sound from my front tire.  I stopped and inspected it, seeing what looked like a very small twig but which turned out to be a very small, very rusted fishing hook, stuck directly into the center of the tread.  I pulled it out and finished my ride with no problems and hopefully it didn't even reach the tube.  

[Philip Williamson]

Excellent, Chris!

My 58mm G-One Speeds had some self-steer, where they’d try to climb the crown of the road, or suddenly get grabbed by a crack in the asphalt. The BQs you’re getting explain the physics of the runner, I think. I only noticed it on a low-trail bike, and not all the time; high trail bikes didn’t do that. It makes sense that low tire pressure causes or contributes.

I switched to RH 55mm knobbies, and haven’t noticed it again. I think the less rubber area keeps the tire from steering the bike. On dirt, I never noticed any of the self steer.

Philip

Santa Rosa, CA