Thinking about cycling for me in the future....

[PG]

I'm turning 67 in a week, and haven't ridden in a couple of months. The last time out, a woman blew a stop sign at an intersection -- presumably while texting, base on her body language -- and if I'd been 100 feet closer to the intersection, I would have been creamed. I shook for a couple of days afterwards, and haven't been motivated to go out since. As with most of us, this isn't an isolated incident.

My instinct is to quit riding. A couple things are behind that. Because of my age, my reflexes, depth perception, and general eyesight are in decline.

I only ride on the road, as mountain and trail riding don't appeal to me. I guess I could start spinning at home to keep my fitness level up.

I know the odds are that I will be fine, but even a minor accident would take months to recover from. A major accident could result in permanent damage.

Am I overreacting? It's been several months and I've had no urge to ride again.

Paul

[ctifusion]

Have you ridden a nice recumbent trike?

Brynnar

[WETH]

Paul,
So sorry to learn about your close call. I have had a few close calls on my bike with cars. I’ve been able to keep riding, though at least one encounter had me quite shaken. All this to express my understanding with your situation. It is not hard for me to imagine that at some point I will feel as you do; I dread that day. Are there multipurpose trails in your area where you could ride and be more at ease?
With best wishes,
Erl
Kensington, MD

[Joe Bernard]

I know this is the place where everyone is inclined to say keep riding no matter what, but I can't support that. It's not the safest activity in the world - at least not with the lousy infrastructure this country provides for cyclists - and you don't have to do it. If you've been off the bike for months and find that you feel calmer without it, then that may be the choice you need. Going for walks is nice, too.

[John Phillips]

     I'm only 61 and I have to admit to having the same feelings you're having. It's not just the fear of being so injured I end up in the hospital. The last time I was taken to emergency and admitted, I contracted a lung infection in the hospital which was partially antibiotic resistant, and took a month to get rid of. Absolutely no fun.

  

     Last night I was looking online at last years bike vs car accidents in my town. The website broke it down to whether the car driver or bike rider was at fault, and many of the accidents where the car driver was at fault were due to a failure to obey the stop sign or traffic signal. This backed up my own experience dealing with cars in my town, and I have to admit, I no longer run errands on my bike. And even though I use my small SUV for grocery runs, I still average about 4 near accidents for every 6 miles I drive, but that's counting cars, bikes and peds. I drive slower these days, and expect everyone else on the road to do something really stupid.

    And I now only ride my bike where I feel comfortable, and respect my sense of fear when I'm riding. Besides, I don't ride to stress myself out.

John

[Christopher Murray]

This is a tough and personal question. I think it boils down to the amount of risk you are willing to accept. All activities (even sitting in your house) come with some risk. At some point the risk or perceived risk of an activity is outweighed by the enjoyment of an activity. For me, motorcycles and old Volkswagens fall into this category. No matter how much I like them, I can just not participate and not feel like I am depriving myself or feel like I am living my life in fear. Other activites- like cycling and running- are worth the risk to me. If I gave them up I would feel like I was living in fear and would miss them every single day.

Ride in places with protected bike lanes or trails. Or give yourself permission to take a break from cycling. You can always start again. Just Ride, to me, means being true to yourself and doing what makes you happy and gives you enjoyment. If that means not riding then that's ok. Talk to people-- friends, doctors, etc. They may have radically different perspectives. Keep an open mind. Explore other types of cycling. Explore other types of exercise. But mostly, do what makes you happiest. Life is too short not to.

[Joe Bernard]

Good example, Christopher. I resumed motorcycle riding 10 years ago because I'd always wanted a Harley and promptly sold it. I still like the bikes and ebikes at 57-years-old, but I don't need the motorcycles anymore.

[dougP]

Paul:

Most of those who've commented are of an age where they may remember the term "defensive driving".  I try to practice "defensive cycling."  To me, that means viewing every situation for the potential to go wrong.  Is that car rolling up at an intersection really going to stop, or will it blow thru?  Is the car that just past me before an intersection going to turn right or carry on straight?  That sort of thinking.  I know it sounds paranoid, but I have few near misses, and have been cycling over 50 years.  When I used to ride motorcycles, one piece of advice was "ride like you're invisible & everyone is out to kill you." 

On the motivation question, if you don't feel like it, don't bother.  It's a sport, not a religion. 

dougP

[Joe Bernard]

Doug,

Yes, that's how I ride, too, and with your (knock on wood) results. I probably got it from being a motorcyclist before cyclist, you get pretty good at predicting what that idiot is going to do and then watching them do it. One of my favorite things to shout at a motorist meeting my low expectations is "OF COURSE!"

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Oh, Paul, this is so sad. And relatable. If I had a close call like yours, I might be very tempted to put the bike away. I got banged up hiking 2 weeks ago and being injured is no joke - and the older you get, the more terrifying it is. I’m in my 30s, but that’s my theory. Top fears: hitting my face. Breaking my teeth. I know there are worse things.

I make drivers look at me. I won’t go through an intersection unless I’ve made eye contact. That’s my #1 tip. If they are looking at me, I have some hope of them paying attention and not finding myself under their wheels. My boys know this in their marrow of their bones; we take a MUP down the artery of our canyon to school and there are several neighborhoods that empty out into that artery. At every single crossing, we look and if the driver doesn’t make eye contact we don’t move. I don’t care how much momentum we lose on the hill or what time it is, we’re at a dead stop if we aren’t staring into the eyes of a human piloting 2 tons of steel in our path.

You have to make the choice for yourself, but don’t feel like you have to ride everywhere you go or that you have to ride in unsafe parts of town. Just ride where you can feel safe and where there are protected bike lanes or MUPs. Maybe just start by biking to a coffee shop? Coffee soothes most anything.
Best,
Leah

[Joe Bernard]

Leah addresses another thing I meant to include and forgot because I'm not in my 30s anymore and forget stuff: I used to ride all kinds of ridiculous car-crowded roads I don't anymore; my attitude was I had "a right" to be there and would not yield. Well that was dumb and I stopped doing it. I ride roads and paths I feel relatively safe on while watching out for and predicting in advance what can go wrong.

[Lester Lammers]

I'm 67 and am in Florida, the number one state for bike fatalities. I just ride defensively and try to anticipate what a motorist might do. It's not difficult to plan a ride when the traffic is minimal.

[Mark Roland]

It's a sad commentary on the road our society has taken when people are in justifiable fear of simply using the most efficient, convivial tool ever created for human transport. There are real statistics and percentages, but also our minds, and the weight we give those numbers, and how we translate it into a feeling of fear or relative safety. Every bicycle rider in the U.S. battles with this to one degree or another, and develops various techniques in the physical realm and justifications, rationalizations, and other tricks in the realm of the mind. When all that stops working, it's okay to drive to the bike path and just ride.

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 7:34:28 PM UTC-5, PG wrote:

[Fullylugged]

Paul:

I'm the same age as you are. My desire to ride ebbs and flows over time. I'm enjoying more these days than I have in a while, but I can relate to not feeling like a ride. You might enjoy working on bikes to stay around them, if you refer not to ride them. As part of our club local outreach committee, I do free bike service on bikes of folks who can't afford to pay for it at a shop, including servicing donated bikes that we re-home. Last night, I chased a creak on my own Rivendell and ended up swapping out the BB. It was as enjoyable to me as a ride.

Cycling remains statistically pretty safe. About 800 cyclists are killed on US roads in a year, vs about 36,000 motor vehicle occupants. If you do have an incident on a bike, it is likely to hurt more than a non fatal car collision though. It's the rider's choice to make and your choice is valid no matter which it is, ride or not ride. I love the road, am closing in on 60,000 miles. Only injury was dog related back in 2006. I avoid roads with danger zones, or bad traffic patterns. I make eye contact. I ride with a mirror, lights and a loud bell. I don't attempt routes that my body is no longer sturdy enough to stay in control on. (big climbs, high winds) I make a ride plan based on my pace these days, not "back in the day."

Whether you ride or not, tailwinds to you.

[peec...@yahoo.com]

At age 64 I find that bicycling is too much fun to stop so I am careful, defensive, establish eye contact with drivers, wave at drivers, thank drivers for being safe, wear a helmet, ride with a bright headlight, avoid riding on roads without a wide shoulder and ride trails as much as I can.  

So far, so good.  But I understand your sense of trepidation and hope you can find an outlet for exercise that you enjoy.

[aeroperf]

Paul-

It’s a hobby, not a necessity.  If you’re not having fun, don’t do it.
Find another way to exercise, because at our age (I’m 70), it is exercise or die.

I would miss the sounds, smells, feel of the pavement, and even the headwinds if I quit cycling.  My opinion is that the best way to keep good reflexes, depth perception and general eyesight is to use them.  I realize I am taking a risk, but for me it seems worth the risk.  For you it may not.

If you were having fun, but this incident has put you off, try to find another riding venue like a paved trail with minimum intersections.  Leah’s comment about eye contact is spot on.  As is DougP’s about defensive cycling.

[Kent Peterson -- Eugene, Oregon]

Unfortunately Paul's experiences are not uncommon. Riding on the road has definitely gotten worse a cell phones and a generally frantic pace have become common.

Paul, even though you say mountain and trail riding don't appeal to you, there is a wide range of riding that is not gonzo mountain biking or boring trails. I think the rise in gravel biking is driven in part by the factors that are driving Paul off the road.

That said, I'm a big fan of walking. Often, on weekends, my wife and I walk everywhere. We're not in a hurry and it's nice not to have to worry about locking the bikes up when we stop at a bakery or a bookstore.

Kent Peterson

Eugene, OR USA

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 4:34:28 PM UTC-8, PG wrote:

[Dan Kretzer]

PG

I've had the same thoughts during the last few years. (will be 72 in April) 

I was living in a high density area and although my past involvement in motorcycles taught me to anticipate the worst, I was getting less and less comfortable riding on the roads. 

I retired last summer and part of the decision to move was to live in a more bike friendly environment.

We now live within a mile and a half of a network of Rail Trails. The area is also very bicycle friendly with clearly marked bike lanes in a town that has mandatory traffic stops for pedestrians.

I couldn't imagine life without some kind of outdoor exercise. 

Where I used to live it was difficult finding safe routes but not impossible. As others have said seek out the better roads. If you don't live near paved trails perhaps there are some close enough to drive to and bike from there?

Read up on bicycle safety. Use a rear view mirror and lights, know your place in the lane, take "box turns", etc. It's not like it was when we were growing up. Try to make sure drivers see you and anticipate that they won't. 

Riding smart keeps it fun and enjoyable.

-Dan 

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 7:34:28 PM UTC-5, PG wrote:

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Just a little anecdote....

The eye contact rule. It actually isn’t my own idea - it’s a practice I borrowed from my best friend’s dad. He is a cardio thoracic surgeon and has a ti Seven he has been riding to work for many years. His commute is 11 mi each way. Since a surgeon’s livelihood greatly depends on his ability to stand and use his hands, I found it surprising he’d take the physical risk and ride busy roads for 22 mi per day on his commute. I asked him if he’d ever had any close calls.

Two, he said. And his number one rule for staying safe out on the roads was to always always always make eye contact with drivers.

His advice has served us very well! I hope the same for all of you, my friends.

[George Schick]

I'm kinda glad someone decided to post on this subject because I've been in a similar situation for a while now.  A little over 15 years ago I moved from a small town (<20K)/rural area to a very densely populated urban/suburban area and more or less figured that my carefree riding on sparsely travelled county farm-to-market roads was pretty much over - unless I wanted to transport the bike to the middle of an adjacent semi-rural county by vehicle just to be able to ride in similar circumstances.  Then, I eventually discovered numerous MUPs, one of the major ones of which passed just a few blocks from my house.  It's an old inter-urban railroad bed surfaced with compacted limestone tailings and I had to figure out the best kind of tires and gearing for my bikes under those conditions, but once that was taken care of I've been riding on them ever since.  And enjoying it!  The only dicey parts are where the trails cross busy streets and highways, but many of those are at intersections with traffic signals.  I'm in my early 70's, too, and I've had to develop a much more cautious approach to riding than what I used to take 20-30 years ago - such as having eyes on four sides of my head, waiting to see if motorists really mean it when they come to a red light or stop sign, using dual function pedals that let you clip in on one side and have a platform on the other, etc.  Since I can go out whenever I want I try to limit my riding to week days, avoiding some of the heavily travelled times on Saturdays and Sundays when weekend warriors, families with little kids weaving back and forth all over the trail, etc. are out and about.

[Mark Roland]

I consider my riding to be more of a lifestyle than a hobby. I use my bicycle for 90% of my shopping, errand, and socializing trips. My response above was based on the op's position as a recreational rider. But there are those who choose to ride for more than just hobby or recreational purposes.
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:01:30 AM UTC-5, aeroperf wrote: on

[Deacon Patrick]

For me the eye contact rule and wave and smile at all cars/drivers, combined with never presuming I have the right of way even when I do, eliminates 99.99% of all close calls and makes the ride far more enjoyable. Today, I was climbing after a wee snow, it was 16˚F, and several drivers rolled down their window and waved after they passed me. Of course, on the way home, an oncoming pick-um-up fully kitted out was going so fast as to be nearly out of control, fishtailing all over the place as they attempted to accelerate. I ducked into a driveway and waited for them to pass, and continued on. First time that has happened. But these are rural back roads, so not anywhere close to the traffic volume most cyclists deal with.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Dorothy C]

So sorry to hear about your scare.
I found this article to be very helpful regarding visibility on a bike
https://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/

[George Schick]

Leah - while I agree with your friend's father's eye-contact rule there's no guarantee that it will be accurate 100% of the time.  Three or four years ago an unfortunate but related incident occurred with the in-law of one of my wife's nieces.  He rides a Ti framed bike with 23mm tires at very competitive speeds, therefore only on paved streets and roads.  He was zooming along one of those roads, when he saw a motorist getting ready to pull out of the entrance to a rural subdivision.  He says for absolute fact that he had established eye-contact with her when all of a sudden she just pulled out in front of him.  He crashed through the passenger side door window, sustained multiple facial injuries, had to have his nose reconstructed, and lost some of his front teeth that had to be replaced with dental implants.  In retrospect, it was established that the driver was distracted by a cell phone, either texting or talking.

I had a similar incident, not resulting in contact or injury, about 6 or 7 years ago where I was climbing a slight grade along a suburban street when a driver with a car load of girls and I were both approaching the intersection of a side street.  The driver looked directly at me and must've thought something like "he's just an old fart who can't be going that fast" and turned left right in front of me.  In the back of my mind I was prepared for that and slammed on the brakes hard, just missing being hit by her turning vehicle by inches.  The girls in the car all turned to look back at me to see my shaking head and a silently mouthed string of slightly vulgar invectives at the actions of their driver.

You just can't be absolutely certain of anything out there, eye contact or not.

[Denise Granger]

Paul - 

I'm sitting here in a chair with a boot cast almost 3 weeks post-op and facing about 3 months without being able to do much of anything, then several months of rehab. I am 62 years old and I chose to go through this so I could have a shot at riding my bike again and get back to the bike touring I so love to do. While it may be on an electric bike for the most part with short rides on my other regular bikes, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get back on a bicycle. I say this because it took me 2 years to decide this - it was either this and/or completely let go of my bike riding which I'm just not ready to do.

I've read so many great posts here and so many offers of options for you to continue riding just differently. Eyesight and eye hand coordination are biggies for a bicycle rider in dealing with the daily hazards we face as cyclists. And if you're not feeling confident that you can handle situations and/or want to try different types of bicycles, or limited access pathways, etc., and/or if you're not driven like I am by the bicycle, there are lots of fun alternatives that can get you outside and keep you active. 

Really interesting that this is the time in our lives where we are experiencing these changes and choices. Just make sure your decision gives you peace of mind without limiting your fun time! 

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 4:34:28 PM UTC-8, PG wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

I've at least twice had drivers blow through red lights or stop signs at speed just as I was approaching on a bike; on one occasion I was heading north just a few 10s of feet south of an intersection when a woman driving east ran a stop sign at 35 mph and t-boned a car heading south, knocking hard and spinning it around 180*. The other time a driver blew a red light at 50; I seem to recall a 3rd instance too, but I won't insist on it.

I'm just very careful nowadays, but I keep riding on the roads. I do start each ride (and each drive, for that matter) with a brief prayer, and thank God, I've had only minor accidents, including 2 ER trips, once for stitches, and another time so that the medical staff could laugh at me for flipping the bike after catching the front wheel in a cattle guard and bruising ribs. But overall, few accidents, and very few and minor injuries in 60+ years of riding -- and I started riding in truly chaotic and dangerous traffic environments, hard to imagine for Americans, just when I was inexperienced and unskilled and aggressive.

I can't advise anyone on what to do, but for myself (1) I don't want to live in a fear that keeps me from doing what I like to do, given that what I like doing isn't obviously foolishly dangerous. One can die at any minute from any number of other causes, at home or abroad; heck, in bed; death comes to everyone, often unexpectedly, usually from things other than cycling.

2nd, riding carefully as an adult on well-chosen roads is not statistically, as far as I've been able to tell, a very dangerous activity, and such danger as it poses is outweighed, so I read, by the benefits of the exercise; and, I'd venture to add, the psychological well being that comes from the activity.

[Bill Lindsay]

Most of the responses appear to be recommendations and encouragement on how to manage the risks associated with cycling and the fear of those risks.  Maybe that's the important part for the OP.  My main takeaway was that the OP hasn't ridden for months and has no urge to ride.  If you don't feel like riding a bicycle, don't ride a bicycle.  I used to golf a lot and I haven't golfed in months and I have no urge to golf, so I don't golf.  I have plenty of other things to do with my time and I'm sure the OP has plenty of things to do with his time.  To paraphrase Yogi Berra "If Paul doesn't want to ride his bike, nobody's going to stop him"

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Joe Bernard]

Correct, Bill, this was my first response to him. Riding bicycles is optional, walking is nice, too.

[Deacon Patrick]

Bill, your response tripped me knuckle headed brain to remember a few other bits I wanted to say, as well as a few new ones:

- Writing in to a bike group inherently has a "I want to ride but have this challenge" component to it. Absolutely, if riding is no longer fun or desired and non-essential for transport, don't ride. Problem solved. Grin.

- On my "hard" brain days, I can't imagine riding. I ride when I can, and don't when I can't. For me, the first clue that I might b e able to ride on a given day is that I can imagine doing so. Some of those day, I don't get farther than getting to the gate, or the bridge just down the road, or... and that works too.

- Short rides are excellent rides.

- route finding is an adventure of it's own. I want to get to "B" from "A", but I have no desire to put up with road Q or intersection R. What back ro9ads, trails, MUPS, etc regardless of going "out of my way" can I take and eliminate or at least minimize those challenge points?

- I ride when it's fun, and don't when it isn't. This inherently involves some attitude adjustment on challenging points of some rides.

Whatever you choose, Paul, enjoy!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Mark Roland]

Yes, except it is fear that has killed his urge, due to an experience in which he imagined what might have happened if he had been 100 feet closer to someone who went through a stop sign, and his own physical challenges. He is asking if he is overreacting, and if other iBobs have dealt with this, and, presumably, how. If he had no interest in ever riding again, why would he be asking for our experiences? If I got to that point and reached out for thoughts on iBoB  I suppose I would hope that I would receive some non-judgmental encouragement. Which he has. I think he would be ill served if we all said, cool, Paul, don't ride any more. Instead, we said, here are some things you can do, but if you don't want to, that's cool.

[masmojo]

Actually, I've been thinking about this a lot lately! I'm only 57, but I can't go like I used to; when I was 20 my strategy was to ride offensively; in other words I made a spectacle out of myself by riding, ah, well, maybe flamboyantly is a good word? A whole mess of activity.
I knew a girl who was riding on Fondren in Houston crossing Westheimer (all 10 lanes of it) when a car ran the light hit her & threw her over 100 feet. Somehow she lived, spent 6 months in traction, left with one leg shorter than the other. Wisely, she decided to hang up riding.
Last time I was in Houston my friend who owns a shop there commented that many of his long time customers had taken to riding predominantly on the sidewalks and or bike paths, because since the cell phone, they don't trust people to be paying attention! I confess that's basically what I do. You won't often catch me riding on any road that's over 2 lanes. Residential & side streets only.
It's not just phones, basically anybody can get a driver's license these days. I was saying the other day that it shouldn't be your God given right to drive a car. There's 3 things (maybe more) that any idiot can do, but that I think people should have to pass an IQ test for. Vote, serve on a jury & drive a car! If you can't tell me what 40% of a dollar is off the top of your head you have no business doing any one of those 3 things. There's too much at stake! Actually, 4 things, add buy a gun to that list!
But, at the end of the day you can't cower in your living room watching Fox News and feeding on paranoia! If you lived this long you've done pretty well, get a can of fluorescent orange paint, spray yourself & your bike and ride flamboyantly!!!

LOL 🤙🏼

[Leah Peterson]

I agree with Mas about sidewalks. If the sidewalks are clear, use ‘em. If I am on the sidewalk and I encounter a walker (rare), I will jump off and walk the bike. Unless it’s an extra-wide one that is made to be shared. Then I just slow way down and smile and wave.

I don’t want to hear “riding on sidewalks is more dangerous for you” or “you should be on the road because it’s your right” or “get cars used to bikes on the road.” Uh uh. No. If you planned to say that, just don’t. I am not a car. I am not going to pretend to be a car. I have two boys often riding with me. And when there’s a safe option for me and them to ride separate from cars that won’t negatively impact anyone else - I’m taking it. And I KNOW the drivers here appreciate it. Bikes make them nervous. Cars make me nervous. It’s nice to have a separation. And if you live where you aren’t disturbing pedestrians, I say no guilt.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 31, 2020, at 2:24 PM, masmojo <mas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Actually, I've been thinking about this a lot lately! I'm only 57, but I can't go like I used to; when I was 20 my strategy was to ride offensively; in other words I made a spectacle out of myself by riding, ah, well, maybe flamboyantly is a good word? A whole mess of activity.

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[bruce.h...@gmail.com]

Riding on the side wallks is illegal where I live, unless the sidewalk is part of signed multi-use pathway. I'm active in working to make our streets safer for cyclists and pedestrians when they are crossing them.

[PG]

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:59:58 AM UTC-8, George Schick wrote:

"You just can't be absolutely certain of anything out there, eye contact or not."

This is part of why I'm thinking of giving it up. No amount of care can overcome the behavior of every driver.  Sooner or later....

PG

[Leah Peterson]

So is texting and driving (illegal), but it’s rampant. So I’ll use my common sense over obeying the rarely enforced sidewalk law. I’ll chance a ticket over a funeral.

I rode on a main thoroughfare today on the sidewalk. By the police station. With police passing by. I should technically be using that bike lane, but not a soul was using the sidewalk, so nobody - including the police - cared one whit. I went on my merry way.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 31, 2020, at 3:07 PM, "bruce.h...@gmail.com" <bruce.h...@gmail.com> wrote:



Riding on the side wallks is illegal where I live, unless the sidewalk is part of signed multi-use pathway. I'm active in working to make our streets safer for cyclists and pedestrians when they are crossing them.

On Friday, January 31, 2020, 04:58:54 PM CST, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with Mas about sidewalks. If the sidewalks are clear, use ‘em. 

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[Joe Bernard]

If you're crowding pedestrians and being a nuisance, the cops will kick you off the sidewalk. Clearly that's not you and they have better things to do. Like pull over morons texting and driving.

[Steve Palincsar]

Be extremely careful at intersections.  You're not where drivers expect you to be, you're going much faster than pedestrians would be going, and you may be going in an unexpected direction.  All this adds up to a much better chance of a collision at an intersection than you might think.

On 1/31/20 6:24 PM, Leah Peterson wrote:

So is texting and driving (illegal), but it’s rampant. So I’ll use my common sense over obeying the rarely enforced sidewalk law. I’ll chance a ticket over a funeral.

I rode on a main thoroughfare today on the sidewalk. By the police station. With police passing by. I should technically be using that bike lane, but not a soul was using the sidewalk, so nobody - including the police - cared one whit. I went on my merry way.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 31, 2020, at 3:07 PM, "bruce.h...@gmail.com" <bruce.h...@gmail.com> wrote:



Riding on the side wallks is illegal where I live, unless the sidewalk is part of signed multi-use pathway. I'm active in working to make our streets safer for cyclists and pedestrians when they are crossing them.

On Friday, January 31, 2020, 04:58:54 PM CST, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with Mas about sidewalks. If the sidewalks are clear, use ‘em. 

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Joe Bernard]

"Be extremely careful at intersections. You're not where drivers expect you to be..."

I've found this to be true as a pedestrian, too. Drivers just don't seem to expect anyone to be walking!

[PaulS]

I've had lots of close calls as well.  Now, I primarily ride dirt/gravel.  You should try it.  Early (5am) road rides are ok as well.

And please do not ride on the sidewalk.  Very bad form and as someone said, illegal in most areas.  In my state, if there is no bike lane or shoulder, you can legally ride in the car lane.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 1/31/20 6:52 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:
> "Be extremely careful at intersections. You're not where drivers expect you to be..."
>
> I've found this to be true as a pedestrian, too. Drivers just don't seem to expect anyone to be walking!

Maybe, but it's far worse when you're moving at three times the speed of
a pedestrian.  Consider a + intersection.  You're driving, heading
north.  You look right, clear.  Look left, clear.  In the one second or
less between looking right and this instant there's no way a pedestrian
could possibly have gotten to the intersection, so you hit the gas and
voila, there's the cyclist in front of your grill.  How'd that happen? 
In that second or less, a cyclist moving at 3X the speed of a pedestrian
-- say 12-14 mph, not at all extraordinary speed for a cyclist -- could
easily travel the 10 yards from "there's nothing there" to "hood ornament".

[Leah Peterson]

Which is why I said I slow up or stop at every intersection and I make eye contact with drivers. So far so good. 

Let me reiterate: Do I ride on sidewalks all the time? No. If there are pedestrians I walk the bike. Not if there are MUPs - there often are. Not if it’s a quiet neighborhood. I will take bike lanes in places that are 35 mph or less. 

It works surprisingly well. 

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 31, 2020, at 3:50 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:



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[Leah Peterson]

Sidewalk riding is legal in Nevada. If there is a bike lane (rarely, where I ride), you are supposed to bike in it. If I am on a fast-moving road and there’s an unprotected bike lane and there are also no pedestrians in sight - I ride on the sidewalk. The sidewalks are wide here, maybe 7 or 8 feet wide. 

 I rarely encounter pedestrians. People aren’t walking, they are driving in this car-centric state. (I rode 8 miles today; I saw 3 pedestrians on the path. I walked my bike around them.) If I have the choice between an empty, paved wide sidewalk or cars whizzing past me at 45 mph in an unprotected bike lane, I’m choosing the sidewalk every time.

You call it bad form. I call it common sense. 

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 31, 2020, at 4:19 PM, PaulS <shin...@gmail.com> wrote:



I've had lots of close calls as well.  Now, I primarily ride dirt/gravel.  You should try it.  Early (5am) road rides are ok as well.

And please do not ride on the sidewalk.  Very bad form and as someone said, illegal in most areas.  In my state, if there is no bike lane or shoulder, you can legally ride in the car lane.

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[Joe Bernard]

"Sidewalk" denotes a myriad of different things in different places. I've seen the sidewalk Leah is referencing in videos she'd posted on Instagram, and it's as wide as streets in Berkeley I drive to go visit my daughter. There's one like that near Riv HQ, too, which you HAVE to use part-way to get from there to Mt. Diablo..there's no bike lane and the 3-lane 45mph street is madness.

So let's take it easy on all the "illegal" talk, the conversation is about being nervous on the bike and ways to alleviate or eliminate that issue. Or not ride at all.

[PaulS]

“ Las Vegas municipal laws prohibit riding a bicycle on the sidewalk within city limits – including on the Strip.“

Nevada may not specifically state no sidewalk riding, but each city/municipalities have their own ordinances. For instance, in Vegas, no riding within city limits. Check your local laws.

Common sense. Some laws do not go hand in hand with common sense. Don’t like it? Tell your city officials instead of giving cyclists a bad name.

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 5:39:36 PM UTC-7, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:
> Sidewalk riding is legal in Nevada. If there is a bike lane (rarely, where I ride), you are supposed to bike in it. If I am on a fast-moving road and there’s an unprotected bike lane and there are also no pedestrians in sight - I ride on the sidewalk. The sidewalks are wide here, maybe 7 or 8 feet wide. 
>
>
>  I rarely encounter pedestrians. People aren’t walking, they are driving in this car-centric state. (I rode 8 miles today; I saw 3 pedestrians on the path. I walked my bike around them.) If I have the choice between an empty, paved wide sidewalk or cars whizzing past me at 45 mph in an unprotected bike lane, I’m choosing the sidewalk every time.
>
>
> You call it bad form. I call it common sense. 
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 31, 2020, at 4:19 PM, PaulS <shin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 
> I've had lots of close calls as well.  Now, I primarily ride dirt/gravel.  You should try it.  Early (5am) road rides are ok as well.
>
>
> And please do not ride on the sidewalk.  Very bad form and as someone said, illegal in most areas.  In my state, if there is no bike lane or shoulder, you can legally ride in the car lane.
>
>
>
>
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[Leah Peterson]

I don’t live in Vegas.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 31, 2020, at 4:51 PM, PaulS <shin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> “ Las Vegas municipal laws prohibit riding a bicycle on the sidewalk within city limits – including on the Strip.“

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[Joe Bernard]

I live in Northern California. Everyone not living in N. CA. thinks I live in San Francisco.

[Leah Peterson]

Paul, I hardly give cyclists a bad name. Quite the opposite.

It’s not my style to be mad at complete strangers on the Internet, so I’m not going to be. You have yourself a nice weekend.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 31, 2020, at 4:51 PM, PaulS <shin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> “ Las Vegas municipal laws prohibit riding a bicycle on the sidewalk within city limits – including on the Strip.“

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[Leah Peterson]

[Bill Schairer]

Paul, my guess is that had you been 100 ft closer to the intersection you would have sensed that something was not right (probably hearing a car coming and that it wasn’t slowing) and reacted in such a way that you were not creamed. Even the driver may have acted differently, not that I’m assuming so. Honestly, I fear other cyclists more than I fear motorists. Grabbing a number out of thin air, I suspect 90% of them around here pay no attention to traffic laws. If they stop at stop signs or red lights, it is only because traffic is too heavy to just blow through. What I am finding interesting at 66 is that I have lost some confidence in my reactions, senses etc while driving but not while biking. I’m trying to figure that one out but, as a result, almost all my solo transportation is by bike. At least if I screw up I’m less likely to kill somebody else.

[in Dallas nick]

Well  here's another Paul adding a response.

I relate to a lot of what has been shared and appreciate many of the thoughtful responses.

Also, I'm another cyclist getting up there in years beginning about age 35 with my first good bike.

It's hard to get my mind around it but I am about 3 years ahead of original poster Paul so this is the year the big Seven Zero arrives in the B-day column for me.

But I feel at least 10 or15 years younger than that so that's a blessing. 

Dallas, TX and the surrounding suburbs have grown and continue to grow in population and traffic tremendously.

I share the same concerns in riding my bike(s) out there that many have expressed.

The seemingly frantic rush most drivers seem to be in along with the cell phone use is a scary combo indeed.

Helmet, mirror attached, riding very defensively, waiting to see if there is a red light or stop sign runner b4 proceeding are all part of my riding strategy.

I stick to slower speed limit residential streets when not on a path

and know the area to get around pretty well. Many of my errands are done via bike.

As to sidewalks if it seems a car is crowding me or being impatient I don't hesitate to get up on it.

Like Leah, I'm courteous to walkers and stop and defer to them but rarely encounter walkers.

I've encountered no irritation with that and most likely happiness with the driver that I got out of their way.

When deemed safe I get back on the street.

I like what Patrick M said about  a little prayer at the beginning of a ride.

Cycling means enough to me to take the known risks.

I could see in the future giving it up

because of physical limitations as I get older or suffering a pretty severe bike accident might put me off it.

The idea of meeting my demise when riding occurs to me occasionally but also the idea of going out doing something I love is not off putting.

I'm one that is actually looking forward to the next life. I hope there are bicycles there. (The good place not the other place.)

That demise would be preferable to sitting on my sofa eating ice cream and kicking off with a heart attack or stroke.

But then again I do like ice cream  hmmm?

I better cycle tomorrow to burn calories to justify Saturday night ice cream.

At any rate OP Paul  all the best with your decision regarding your cycling future. Thanks for bringing up an interesting topic.

Safe riding to you all.

The Riv Bike list rocks!

Paul in Dallas,TX

When one gets old do they get more long winded?

What age is official geezer status age?

[PG]

Thank you all for the thoughtful and measured responses. I have read and considered each one of them.

Right at this moment, I'm inclined to sell my Soma San Marcos -- which I love -- and get a high end spinner. I don't want to lose my fitness, and I like the feeling of peddling. (Selling my bike would prevent me from going out now and then.)

The area I live in is pretty backward. There are a number of cyclists, but also lots of harassment from drivers while riding...mostly from young white males in pickup trucks. It can get pretty chippy sometimes, to the point where a confrontation isn't out of the question. I only point this out because drivers around here aren't inclined to give riders a break. Several cyclists have been killed in recent years, caused by distracted drivers hititng them from behind, which is something that no amount of situational awareness can prevent.

Thanks again...

[Surlyprof]

Regarding riding on the sidewalk, it is illegal for anyone over the age of 13 where I live in Northern California (also not SF). That said, there is a busy stretch of my commute where two left turn lanes turns into another busy road. Although I feel highly self-conscious about it, I have often ridden up to the traffic light, taken the crosswalk and rode on the sidewalk the two block stretch to next “safe” road. It’s MUCH safer than crossing two lanes of morning traffic to stand in and then travel with traffic in one of the two left turn lanes.

As for walking as a safer pursuit, yesterday evening my wife and I were walking our dogs when were almost run over by a Tesla silently rolling through a neighborhood stop sign at about 25-30 mph. We actually had to yank the dogs back on to the corner. Dangers are everywhere but I refuse to fear death so much that I cease living (paraphrasing Jimmy Buffet? Really!?). I love riding a bicycle (and walking our dogs) and refuse to stop doing it out of fear. To reiterate what others said, I’ll continue to ride defensively, use lights and reflective bits and avoid risky situations whenever possible. But, as long as I still enjoy it, I’m still going to do it.

Good luck with your decision and, if you do give the bike, I hope you find another joyous pursuit that you enjoy as much or more than we all enjoy riding our Rivs.

John
Niles, CA

[tc]

Paul,

I don't think you're overreacting.  Getting a spinner sounds like a good plan to me, because you yourself thought of it, and it must feel like the right thing for you at this point in time!  Everyone has their own measure for 'safety', and you're certainly entitled to yours.  I choose not to ride more than a mile radius from my house on the roads because it doesn't feel safe.  I also have 2 cyclist friends who've been in serious accidents.  Though I've lost touch with one of them, the other still rides, but only in large groups, and more so on paved greenways these days. Speaking of greenways, we're fortunate in Raleigh to have over 100 miles of paved greenways; they're building more, and connecting more, each year.  It's so nice not to have to worry about traffic; you can enjoy the views, the bridges over water, and wildlife that you just don't see that often on the roads (or have the opportunity to pay attention to since you're trying not to get hit).  I wasn't clear from your post whether you have greenways available and you just choose not to ride them, or, they're not available.  If the former, that might be a nice way to slip back into riding.  Whatever you choose, best wishes!

Tom

[PaulS]

A number of my friends are on Peleton/Zwift during the winter months. They get a ride in as well as socializing with friends. Plus you get to ride in cities all over the world. It wouldn’t be a bad option.

[Mark Roland]

Regarding the legality of sidewalk riding, I used to be in the camp that riding illegally on sidewalks gives bicyclists a bad name. And in fact, lots of people who do ride on busy sidewalks can endanger pedestrians with excess speed. Riding a bicycle doesn't turn jerks into considerate citizens.

Over the years, though, I've changed my viewpoint. The main reason is because, while in most places cyclists are supposedly considered "vehicles" and supposedly have the same "rights and responsibilities" as other road users, the real truth is that all of the laws, all of the infrastructure, all of the traffic controls, were built almost exclusively for motor vehicles (or to keep walkers from impeding motor vehicles), and we must make do as best we can within a system that at best gives lip service to human-powered transit. So I generally obey the rules. But I reserve the right to opt out when they make no sense, or, more to the point, put me in danger if I follow the rule rather than my instinct for survival.

In this day and age, sadly, using a bicycle as a means  of transport for things like shopping, going to school, social visits, errands, essentially puts you in the role of a revolutionary dissident to begin with, so might as well take a few prerogatives!;^)

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 8:18:16 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

[Marc Irwin]

    I'm 67 and have been commuting, touring and club riding since I was 20.  I think it has prevented my perception and reflexes from deteriorating as I've seen in others my age.  I think the occasional close call is a healthy reminder to pay attention and ride safely.   It will happen but I remind myself that I engage hundreds, if not thousands of drivers on a daily basis and the overwhelming majority are overly cautious.  Everyday I have to signal somebody to take the right of way rather than yield to me when they shouldn't.  The rude drivers or close calls occur (maybe) once in a few weeks.  That being said, it is always best to use any bike lane, MUP or infrastructure when it's available.    You can have the spinning classes if you want, sitting still on a bike is no fun for me.

Marc

[Kent Peterson -- Eugene, Oregon]

On the subject of sidewalk riding, I wrote this back in 2011. I think it still holds up.

https://kentsbike.blogspot.com/2011/12/pounced-with-fire-on-flaming-roads.html

Kent Peterson
Eugene, OR USA

[Ahmed Elgasseir]

I agree with Mark - “so might as well take a few prerogatives!” To that end, and at the risk of sounding even more like a guy “giving cyclists a bad name”, I routinely “salmon” cycle up the street in the opposite direction of the cars. 

I’ve been shoved off the road too many times, and hit once, by cars not paying attention, texting, or even just driving vindictively. I’d rather see what is coming, pull over for oncoming cyclists when needed and live to ride another day. 

Ahmed in Sillycon Valley 

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[Buck Flagg]

Props to all who have posted here for their thoughtful responses. I am a near 62-year old cyclist who has been a daily bike commuter for over thirty years here in New York City and before that in DC. My particular take in the driver/cyclist dynamic is that most of the inroads we cyclists have made into the consciousness if drivers, and they are not insignificant, have been largely wiped out by the proliferation if devices in cars that distract the driver. It's really a scourge. On January 16, the driver of a pickup truck on Eleventh Avenue in the far west side of Manhattan entered an old intersection well after his light had turned red and t-boned me pulling me and my beloved Rivbike underneath the front end of his truck. I was very fortunate to escape with just scrapes 'n' dings. Reflecting on the many experiences recounted above I would have to say that it never occurred to me to stop riding. Not because I'm so tough, or feel entitled to my place in the line of traffic or anything else like that. More likely it's because, for better or worse, cycling is pretty central to who I am, as a person. Maybe more than most other things, I self-identify as a bicyclist. I'm not ready to let go of that, yet.

[PaulS]

In my area, as I’m sure in most areas, the struggle between cyclists and motorists is very apparent. Include pedestrians, joggers, and other users of the road as well. (I won’t even get into the explosion of ebikes as of late). The relationship doesn’t seem to be getting better, despite the fact there is a growing number of both cars and cyclists on the road, with no sign of slowing down anytime in the future. I get a constant reminder of this disparity when I am around my in-laws (who know I’m a cyclist so all the venting happens at family gatherings, typically at me), and non-cyclist friends. “Why can’t they be more respectful? Why do they take up the whole road? Why do they blow through stop signs??!” Which are all legitimate frustrations. There are a LOT of inconsiderate cyclists out there. I see it as a driver. Of course, flip all of this when I’m around cyclists.

But not one party is right. There are good drivers and bad ones. Same in the cyclists world. So what to do?

What I’ve constantly advocated was more education. Both of cyclists and motorists. I wouldn’t mind if cyclists had to be licensed or at least go through a mandatory course on a regular basis. Simple as watching a video online and printing a certificate. There are lots of cyclists who simply don’t know the rules. Same with motorists. Can we not include some better training when getting licensed? More than the “be sure to yield to cyclists when possible” in the dmv manual today. But that will be a long time coming.

This battle will continue which means we have to be more thoughtful in our actions. Nonchalant attitude toward the rules will hurt more than help. We can’t have this tit for tat mentality of, well, if they can text and drive, I can ride wherever I want. If they can ride where they want, I can park in the bike lane. ...... Who wins here? Not us.

Of COURSE I value life more than obeying the letter of law. But really, is breaking the law really unavoidable? Can one not walk the bike on the sidewalk whether there are pedestrians or not? People driving by still notice. Is it that hard to stop at stop signs? Throw up a hand signal when turning? Just do what you can to be a better ambassador.

I’m a little surprised by having to defend this here. But at the same time, not really, as it’s a common conversation with a lot of other “cyclists“ I’ve run into.

Ride safe everyone.

[Nick Lindsey]

Paul,

I'm the same age as Bill and feel exactly as he does. Still sharp on the bike versus the car. I commute daily and on the weekends have "joy rides" with my wife on road bikes....often in high-traffic areas. We both frequently remind each other to ride (very) defensively and then focus on holding our lines, always expecting the unexpected from cars and sometimes a fellow cyclist. Perhaps if you found a riding partner or went out with a friendly group would alleviate the apprehension?

Wishing you well,
Nick (N Cal)

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 31, 2020, at 6:56 PM, Bill Schairer <comm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Paul, my guess is that had you been 100 ft closer to the intersection you would have sensed that something was not right (probably hearing a car coming and that it wasn’t slowing) and reacted in such a way that you were not creamed. Even the driver may have acted differently, not that I’m assuming so. Honestly, I fear other cyclists more than I fear motorists. Grabbing a number out of thin air, I suspect 90% of them around here pay no attention to traffic laws. If they stop at stop signs or red lights, it is only because traffic is too heavy to just blow through. What I am finding interesting at 66 is that I have lost some confidence in my reactions, senses etc while driving but not while biking. I’m trying to figure that one out but, as a result, almost all my solo transportation is by bike. At least if I screw up I’m less likely to kill somebody else.
>

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[Mark Roland]

I appreciate the support, but If you mean you regularly ride against traffic, that may appear as though it is "safer" but it assuredly is not. If done now and then on a short wide road to avoid a lengthy or potentially dangerous go-around, perhaps (sidewalk might be best in this case).

You could argue any bending of the rules will lead to anarchy, I don't think that is the case. Habitually riding against traffic would in fact induce anarchy if a reasonable portion of cyclists decided that was a good idea in the belief it was safer.

On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 11:50:36 AM UTC-5, Ahmed Elgasseir wrote:

I agree with Mark - “so might as well take a few prerogatives!” To that end, and at the risk of sounding even more like a guy “giving cyclists a bad name”, I routinely “salmon” cycle up the street in the opposite direction of the cars. 

I’ve been shoved off the road too many times, and hit once, by cars not paying attention, texting, or even just driving vindictively. I’d rather see what is coming, pull over for oncoming cyclists when needed and live to ride another day. 

Ahmed in Sillycon Valley 

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 7:06 AM Kent Peterson -- Eugene, Oregon <kent...@gmail.com> wrote:

On the subject of sidewalk riding, I wrote this back in 2011. I think it still holds up.

https://kentsbike.blogspot.com/2011/12/pounced-with-fire-on-flaming-roads.html

Kent Peterson
Eugene, OR USA

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[masmojo]

For me in comes down to one very basic principle and that is the road ways and everything associated with them were designed for motor vehicles simple really. As a result they were not designed for me OR my bicycle.  I am forced to deal with a system that was not designed for me. So, If I take liberties fine I've got to do whats good for me.  I've been riding for as long as I can remember pretty much and although the way I ride has changed it's more of an evolution than anything. Over time I know what works and what doesn't.

Even in situations where there's bike lanes, (Which I do use when it makes sense) they were put in after the fact, problem we have here in Dallas is there's insane numbers of people moving here and it's quickly overwhelming our Infrastructure, roads especially. NOTE to people thinking about moving here Please don't it's starting to really really Suck!

We ARE expanding bike trails and whatnot at a aggressive rate, but unfortunately I think the perception of Bike trails in general is that they are a Recreational resource; this mindset makes me a little crazy, Because, people can walk, Run, Or even casually recreate on their bicycle just about anywhere.  If you are not going anywhere, you can go nowhere, just about anyplace.  A bike path should facilitate alternative transport and it will be very effective at that if we keep that in mind. Don't build bike paths from nowhere to nowhere. I am OK with people walking their dogs or whatever, but 9 times out of 10 I am using the bikepath or trail for Transportation, as a practical tool, putting tax dollars to functional use, decreasing traffic for the other people who are not so inclined. Is it wrong for me to expect a little consideration? I don't think so; I try to work with the cars, the traffic in a collaborative fashion, you give me a little space and I'll give you a little space, etc.

Fortunately, on my 16 mile one way ride to work, roughly half of it is on a bike path, another 4ish miles are residential/lightly traveled streets, but balance is sidewalks. No biggie really, I don't think riding a bike on the sidewalk is technically legal, but it's kind of understood that it's the only safe option. The only place I've ever caught any grief for riding on the sidewalk was Guadalupe St. in Austin, but that was 30 years ago.

So, Yeah, I don't know why I had to unpack all that, but do what's good for you on or off your, bike; I'm not going to judge.

But, the whole riding on the sidewalk is against the law argument, just kinda gets me fired up. It's one thing if you live in NYC, SF or maybe Chicago, but just about anywhere else in this country it's frequently your best option. I try to be courteous, because I think it's in my best interest, but we cannot continue to grow automotive use, sadly it's not sustainable.

Bike commuting is growing here, despite the ever shrinking availability of shops catering to cyclist, that should be a sign.

I expect Ebike commuting to Double in 2020 and probably every year after that.

[Mark Roland]

And that there is a LCS Clem L, so, like, twice the length of your average bicycle! In other words, one wiiiiiiiide sidewalk;^)

[Mark Roland]

There is no "tit for tat" here, the playing field is completely lopsided. Even if every cyclist rode like a jerk, we are talking about a human being on a 30-pound bicycle vs. one in a 3,000 pound car. They can do stupid stuff and get killed for it, but generally, morally, they must be given the right of way whenever possible, even when doing annoying stuff. (But a lot of that "annoying stuff" is survival stuff--and often legal. Such as riding to stay out of debris on the right hand side of the road, riding so that a car does not attempt to pass on a blind curve, moving to the left of the lane to execute a left-hand turn, etc.)

Ninety percent of the complaints from motorists, when you really look at, come down to, My way was impeded for a few seconds. My way is the right and true way, so I should not be impeded for a few seconds by people who don't belong on the roads. Roads are for driving your car and texting your friends and watching funny videos. Not for bicycles.

One summer evening I was coming home from work. I had just gotten off the path over the Newburgh Beacon bridge and was heading down 9D toward town. There was the typical huge backup of traffic going the other way, as a commuter train had pulled in, and many of the people parked at the Beacon station live across the river in Orange County.

With no traffic behind me, I took a bit of the lane to avoid the sewer grates. A guy in a pickup truck, stuck on the other side, yelled out "Get the f*&! out of the road. Use the f*&@! sidewalk, a##ho&* He was on the other side of the road, going in the opposite direction. The idea of me being on the road incensed his delicate sensibilities of right and wrong. Many motorists harbor this feeling to some degree.

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

Well put, Mark!

I tend to follow all of the rules of the road, but only when it works with my safety: I'll do whatever I have to do to stay safe, like use a usually empty sidewalk for a very brief portion on a busy and fast four-lane road with no shoulder, or bolt out into the intersection just before the traffic light for me turns green for me (but after the red light-running motorists, of course) before it gets messy with turning and impatient motorists. Little tweaks.

But otherwise, I ride away from the curb so that I'm seen (also to discourage motorists from passing me in an unsafe manner), I signal my intentions (just point with my arms), I am always ready to brake hard when approaching an intersection (with the assumption that someone in a car will pull out in front of me, whether we make eye contact or not), I ride with a headlight on at all times, and I ride in an assertive and predictable manner. (Now don't label me as one of those rigid anti bike-infra vehicular cyclists -- I ride like that when I have to, but I'd much rather ride on a bikeway -- a properly designed one, that is.)

Granted, I don't commute to work on my bike, but despite living in one of the most densely populated counties in the country (and in the most densely populated state), I can't recall the last time a motorist intentionally threatened me or gave me abuse for being on a bike. (Careless driving is another matter.) Because of the vast network of interconnected streets, I try to ride on low-traffic, low-speed routes, tied together with bike paths, walkways, and alleys when I can.

Bob E

Cranford, NJ

[Joe Bernard]

No, we're not going to stop riding on empty sidewalks as wide as the one in Leah's pic because someone in a car might have bad thoughts about us.

[Patrick Moore]

Wow! I'm very glad you are not only still around but up and about and able to post your message. I hope you get full financial satisfaction from the fool, even if you have to let justice wait ("Vengeance is mine; I will repay" seth the Lord*). And I admire your doughty emotional resilience in the face of that event.

I am very fortunate that I hardly ever have to drive, but I also live in a little infill enclave surrounded by major traffic arteries, and I am always and have long been struck at how futile, absurd, and vain a way of life we have chosen for ourselves, with its frantic, noisy, wearing, and expensive qualities compounding the other sorts of modern din and rush. 

* In Buddhist doctrine, the analogue to this apparently moral promise is "karma," both articulations asserting the ultimate re-establishment of a primordial equilibrium. -- [how 'bout that one, Garth?])

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 9:58 AM Buck Flagg <mauricesti...@gmail.com> wrote:

.... On January 16, the driver of a pickup truck on Eleventh Avenue in the far west side of Manhattan entered an old intersection well after his light had turned red and t-boned me pulling me and my beloved Rivbike underneath the front end of his truck. I was very fortunate to escape with just scrapes 'n' dings. Reflecting on the many experiences recounted above I would have to say that it never occurred to me to stop riding. Not because I'm so tough, or feel entitled to my place in the line of traffic or anything else like that. More likely it's because, for better or worse, cycling is pretty central to who I am, as a person. Maybe more than most other things, I self-identify as a bicyclist. I'm not ready to let go of that, yet.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Corwin]

I hear all the points of view about riding on the sidewalk. In general, I avoid riding on the sidewalk almost all the time. On rare occasions, I will ride on the sidewalk if there are no pedestrians and there is no other option. I was told by the executive director of the local bike advocacy group (Bike East Bay) that many cyclists say the main reason they do not ride is that they do not feel safe riding in the street. I can understand this. Unfortunately, this has led to creation of "protected" bike lanes and other paths in and around the East Bay of the SF Bay Area. Instead of resolving the problem, this creates new problems - bikes going both ways behind parked cars, bikes shooting out into traffic, bikes encountering cars turning in front of them (because they could not see the bicycle behind a parked car).

What rarely gets mentioned here is that people in the US have a completely different attitude toward driving than drivers in much of the world. When I visit India, I see bikes, cars, busses, trucks, motorcycles, auto-rickshaws, etc. all careening down the street at maximum speed, literally inches from each other (sometimes less) with no road rage. Further, given the number of vehicles on the road, accidents are rare. When an accident does happen, it frequently does not go well for the driver of a motor vehicle if a cyclist or pedestrian has been injured or killed. I think what really needs to happen is that a paradigm shift. Not sure how to make it happen - I think the cost of driving will bring this on independently.

Namaste,

Corwin

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 4:34:28 PM UTC-8, PG wrote:

I'm turning 67 in a week, and haven't ridden in a couple of months. The last time out, a woman blew a stop sign at an intersection -- presumably while texting, base on her body language -- and if I'd been 100 feet closer to the intersection, I would have been creamed. I shook for a couple of days afterwards, and haven't been motivated to go out since. As with most of us, this isn't an isolated incident.

My instinct is to quit riding. A couple things are behind that. Because of my age, my reflexes, depth perception, and general eyesight are in decline.

I only ride on the road, as mountain and trail riding don't appeal to me. I guess I could start spinning at home to keep my fitness level up.

I know the odds are that I will be fine, but even a minor accident would take months to recover from. A major accident could result in permanent damage.

Am I overreacting? It's been several months and I've had no urge to ride again.

Paul

[PG]

One other tid-bit, relating to my OP...

I had heart surgery about 18 months ago, and while rehabbing (it went well, thanks goodness) a nurse came by our home for a weekly wellness check. She saw my bike, and said she was a triathlete. (Trust me when I say, she looked like it...totally ripped.) She told me that she stopped training on the road due to the risk, and she was in her 30's. That really planted a seed with me. The surgery was was also heads up that if I got injured, it would take a long time to heal.

[Philip Williamson]

I never make eye contact with drivers. Usually I can’t even see into their highly reflective smoked glass cages.*

I do time things at stop signs so it’s clear who has precedence, and I ride where lots of other cyclists ride, which is a natural advantage.

*I drive too, so it’s not an “us vs them” paradigm. It’s “us vs us.”

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Daniel D.]

I thought wow that's interesting.  But from googling the description of traffic accident stats or penalties in India doesn't seem accurate.  

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/26/india-reduce-road-death-penalties-high-rate-accidents

[Fullylugged]

BBDG comments that "if sidewalks are clear, I'll use them." This is a valid option for her most of the time:
"Nevada permits bicycles to ride on the street and also on most sidewalks except in certain large municipal areas with local regulations. To accommodate cyclists, cars are required, on single-lane roads, to move over at least three feet from a cyclist."
My comment that seems to set off this sidewalk sidebar (my state does not allow bikes on sidewalks) was only to say that I don't have that option. Cyclists and motor vehicle drivers should both follow traffic laws. Back to my advice to the OP, he should not ride where he is not comfortable about it. My RUSA region held a 200K yesterday on a rail-trail and people loved it. I am not against off highway riding at all. I'm just flexible. I rode 51 miles on a US highway yesterday with 5 others to route test an upcoming event. It was great. Except for the rain, overcast, wind, and some hills :) Riv content: I rode my '95 pre-production sample of the Rivendell Road.

YMMV

[Mark Roland]

Let's look at this from another perspective. Most of the posters on RBW are also drivers. I would bet that almost every one of us breaks the law in our cars with regularity. As an example, the aforementioned 9D has a speed limit of 30mph. Although I am conscientious about my speed on local roads, portions of this road are engineered in a way that makes it a huge struggle to stay at the posted speed limit, including a section with two lanes. (Especially in a machine designed to hit speeds of 90-100mph.) I generally go about 35mph in this section, and I'm passed on the right (where a cyclist trying to get to the bridge crossing without riding on the sidewalk would be) by virtually everyone.

This is pertinent to the discussion here, as every increase in auto speed translates to greater chance of death for pedestrians and cyclists in a collision with that vehicle. I won't even bring up how many of us do the posted limit on highways. So even though all the infrastructure and traffic signals are designed for the convenience of the automobile, if it veers off of what is the reality, people will disregard the law. And not even for safety--in fact "speeding" is demonstrably less safe--but for their own convenience.. Even grandmothers and grandfathers. If you have never gone above the speed limit, my apologies.

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I would also say one more thing. If I followed the “don’t ever ride on the sidewalk” and rode on the street on our school commute there would be absolute WAR here. And I’m certain one of the 3 of us would be dead by now.

There is one way up this mountain and one way down it. Two lanes run each direction. Speed limit is supposed to be 35 but everyone goes 50 (yep, me too, when I’m driving) because it is a steep descent. There is no bike lane and no shoulder. None. There is also a very wide sidewalk, as you saw pictured in my previous post. Pedestrians are rare.

If we took the lane we would clog up the traffic for every single member of this community trying to get to work and/or school. There would be pandemonium. They would honk. They would be enraged. They would write about me on Nextdoor. If I followed the advice that cars don’t belong on sidewalks I would be a pariah with the cars here. I truly believe I or one of my kids would be dead by now if we rode that raceway.

Instead, the people in cars wave at me. They recognize me in the community “hey you’re the bike girl!” They say things like, “I have watched you and your boys ride your bikes for years. I wish I could do that.” A business owner recognized me at a coffee shop one day and showered me with gifts from his shop. The cop heading to work in his police SUV waves at me. I got approached by some parents who had seen me biking and asked if their kids could join me. So I started a bicycle bus. I don’t have a bad relationship with cars. I’m not giving cyclists a bad name.

Do what works where you live. Don’t be quick to judge other cyclists who are taking reasonable measures to stay alive. Try to get along with drivers - they can so easily kill you. Better to make them your allies. Plus, it’s nice getting gifts at coffee shops.

[Joe Bernard]

At this point in the discussion my biggest concern for the OP is this:

"The area I live in is pretty backward. There are a number of cyclists, but also lots of harassment from drivers while riding...mostly from young white males in pickup trucks."

That's not really a manageable risk for he lives amongst morons.

[Mark Roland]

So the OP has had confrontations with young men in pickups? I didn't get that.

In any case, I think wherever you live, the attitude we bring is the most important thing. See BBDD. If our attitude is, it's only a matter of time, and I'm old, then yes, it may make sense for us to hang up the bike. I think most of us are somewhere on this continuum. My current plan is to keel over on the side of the road at 87 while riding up a hill with my son.

[John Phillips]

    I had forgotten that I had gone through a time like our OP's 47 years ago in 1974.

    I was in my early teens, had a drop bar bike and would blow off steam by taking hour long rides after school along the ocean. Then three things happened, my mom passed away, I grew my hair long out of anger and rebellion and because she wasn't around any longer to pester me, and tourism really, really took off. The roads were filling up with people in cars not watching the road, or opening car doors without looking, or standing in the middle of the road to take in the view. Or they really hated long haired kids on bikes. Several times I found myself checking over my shoulder or under my left arm to find the mirror of a Winnebago 3-4 feet from my head even though I was hugging the right-hand edge of the asphalt, and the driver glaring at me with intent. There was plenty of room to give me the lane, let alone 1-2 feet of space, but no, I didn't belong there and he was going to give me a lesson. There were too many people who didn't have a qualm running a long haired teenager off the road or hitting them with their vehicle.

    So I took to riding at night. Nearly no body was on those roads at night, and I could hear cars coming from a long way off or see the headlights, and I would just pull of the road. Or in winter, I rode in stormy weather which kept the tourists away as well. I would try and race the squalls coming in off the Pacific. A couple of years later, I cut my hair, but it was still a bit too risky to ride when the tourists were out. And it was quiet and peaceful having the rods to myself.

   I don't propose this as a solution for anyone. I'm just saying I know what it feels like to fear riding has just become way too dangerous to do anymore.

John

PS: There weren't any sidewalks, but sometimes I rode the golf cart paths at night when no one was playing. Mea culpa.

[Joe Bernard]

I had this when I lived in Lake County CA. No shoulders, high speed two-lane roads and douchebags in pickups. It just sucked and I didn't ride much.

[Leah Peterson]

I know this was a horror story with the threatening drivers and untimely death of your mother. But aside from that, I was enthralled picturing a free-spirited but grieving long-haired teen riding along the ocean, racing the squalls coming off of the Pacific and night riding on lonely beach town streets. 

I’m so sorry about your mom, John. It sounds like your bike helped you deal, and I’m glad it did and that you were unharmed on your rides.

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 2, 2020, at 11:39 AM, John Phillips <w00ly...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[George Schick]

Truegolden and masmojo:

I'm finding your comments about the Dallas area intriguing.  I had to live there for about 18 months in the mid-90's for business purposes.  I rented a small apartment along Royal Lane in Irving, just North of the John Carpenter.  I took my bike down there with me and after working hours I'd pull out of the apt. complex onto Royal Lane, go West bound across the Beltline, and ride along various business park streets up to Tweat(sp?) Road, after which I'd ride the frontage road parallel to 121 until it dead ended at the river, loop around under the bridge and ride the South bound frontage until it stopped.  Then I'd turn around and ride back to complete the distance.   Something tells me that such an undertaking might be suicidal nowadays.  For one thing, I've been told that Royal Lane has been cut through to Dallas County now and runs along the Northern side of the city.  Seems to me that such a change would turn Royal Lane into an expressway.  Also, as a aside, I recall that one of the most nightmarish places to drive (besides the Airport Expressway) was Loop 12.  Still the case?  Just curious.

[Patrick Moore]

I have to agree with those whose approach to obeying traffic laws is pragmatic, since sometimes these laws don't fit well with the situation; this applies in spades to cycling where, IMO, one's own safety is paramount after that of others for which you are responsible, and where following the strict letter of the law can be death (as St. Paul teaches us. Wait a minute ...).

I live 1/2 mile north off an access road from a major E-W artery, which it is necessary to cross to get to the city's major N-S bike/recreational trail. The artery is divided at the intersection, with provision only for cars heading West and turning South. I have with full deliberation, for lo these 16 years, violated the traffic law by using this left/South turn lane as a way to turn East toward the bike path. Until I carped and nagged at the City to put in a ped crossing a few yards East of the intersection, there was no realistic legal way for a cyclist to make this crossing. They did put in said ped crossing, but it's a half-assed (tech term in project management) solution that requires the cyclist to walk or ride East across the mouth of the access road just where cars behind him are piling up to turn right/West, and cars approaching from the East may well be planning to turn right/North. So I continue to violate the law happily unless traffic his really heavy, in which case I walk the bike as described to the new ped crossing. So sue me!

(When I gently suggested that the City install a zebra crossing, or at least a ped crossing sign, either at the junction or a few yards north, the rep said, "Nope, 'cause that would give pedestrians the idea that they had a legal right to cross there." Or meaning to that effect. Again, dumbass half assery predicated on the principle that the car is real and that nothing else is.)

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[Patrick Moore]

This is hors sujet but not entirely, relating to rednecks in pickup trucks.

Long ago, I stupidly planted my front wheel in a cattle guard at a relatively heavily trafficked intersecton and did the expected flip over the bar, smashing the wheel and bruising ribs. A line of cars pass me by with gawking occupants, some laughing, but I was picked up by 2 lily-white fatboys out of Deliverance with full beards in a black-primered pickup, who kindly took me to the ER -- they were on the way to get valves for one of their Harley's ground. Moral, don't judge the book by its beard and paint job. (I wasn't badly injured except in my pride.)

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[John Phillips]

Hi BBDD,

    Thank you for your kind words. You're right, my bike was my lifeline back then.

I envy you your sidewalks! Compared to my sidewalks, those look like MUP's!

John

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[Ian Dickson]

I was just telling my girlfriend about how, when I was a bike messenger many years ago, I got hit by cars several times and always bounced up and kept riding. I'm almost 50 now, and there are people who depend on me. I do still ride in the city, but I'm a lot more judicious about where and how I do it. It is important to be safe, but more importantly, there is no point forcing yourself to do it if you don't enjoy it.

I'd only say, if you find that you miss riding, that it's worth giving other kinds of cycling a shot to see if you like them after all. I used to be strictly a road rider, but now I strongly prefer gravel roads and double track. I don't have much interest in real mountain biking, but riding in the woods or mountains is great. It's okay to drive your bike somewhere and then ride.