RD compatible with index shifters?

[Dave Redmon]

My goal is rear index shifting because I'm mostly deaf to improper shifting in friction mode. My LBS tells me my Shimano 7700 9 speed index bar end shifters are not compatible with my Shimano 9 speed XT rear derailer in index mode. Has anyone else had this problem and found a solution?

Dave in Kansas

[Garth]

   What's the exact XT RD model ? Did they actually try it ?  

[Dave Redmon]

Yes, we tried it. With a  barrel adjuster, it would hit only 6 or 7 gears. The XT was taken off a MTB and sold to me,  but it seems to be in good shape. I don't see a number on it anywhere.

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[Nick Payne]

On Tuesday, 4 June 2019 07:07:06 UTC+10, Dave Redmon wrote:

My goal is rear index shifting because I'm mostly deaf to improper shifting in friction mode. My LBS tells me my Shimano 7700 9 speed index bar end shifters are not compatible with my Shimano 9 speed XT rear derailer in index mode. Has anyone else had this problem and found a solution

If it is actually a 9-speed XT RD then it should work fine, as I have that exact combination indexing fine on a couple of bikes. If it's 9-speed RD, there should be a model number like M771 or M772 stamped on the back of the derailleur parallelogram. If the model number is M780 then it's an XT 10-speed RD, and that won't index with your shifters as Shimano changed the cable pull between 9- and 10-speed MTB components.

Nick

 

[Dave Redmon]

This XT RD is black but clean. I examined it carefully with a light and magnifying glass but I see no model number in the parallelogram area. 

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[Joe Bernard]

Got a pic?

[William deRosset]

Dear Dave,

If you look on the inner parallelogram link, there should be an engraved model number..

All 9v Shimano derailleurs are interchangeable. 10v and later is not (dynasys has a different pull ratio, and 11v is also internally mutually incompatible), and 8v and prior Dura-ace do not interchange with other Shimano stuff.

Best Regards,

Will
William M deRosset
Fort Collins, CO

[Dave Redmon]

Here's a photo of my Shimano XT RD

[Jeremy Till]

That is definitely a M771 rear derailleur and is 9spd compatible: 

https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=19237 

Like others, I have two bicycles which run the 7700-series bar ends with mountain derailleurs, so they are compatible. To work through the other possibilities: 

-Are you sure you have the 9 speed bar-end shifters? Shimano also has an 8 spd version, and 8 speed cog spacing is different than 9 spd.

-Are you sure you have a 9 speed cassette?

-Probably highly unlikely, but is there any chance your cassette is a Campagnolo cassette? Campagnolo also uses a different cog spacing. 

-Are the shift cable and housing in good shape?

[Joe Bernard]

Jeremy's right, I've had a couple of those connected to various 9-speed Shimano shifters including bar-cons. Either the shifter is 8-speed (click through it to count 'em), or the cable is mounted on the wrong side of the fixing bolt at the derailer. Or the inner wire is hanging up in the housing.

[Dave Redmon]

Thanks for your observations. My BES are 7700s for 9 speed cassettes. My chain and cassette (11-28t)  and the cables and housing are new Yokozunas. I added a Jagwire RD barrel adjuster since it was missing. 

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[Steve Palincsar]

Where is your LBS getting this stuff?  I am not aware of any Shimano 9 speed bar end shifter that is not compatible with any Shimano 9 speed rear derailleur in index mode.  The incompatibilities between Shimano road shifters and MTB rear derailleurs don't come into play until you get to DynaSys 10 speed MTB.   If it's not working now either it's a set-up issue or the shifters are broken.  Maybe once you get this sorted you should find a better LBS.

On 6/3/19 5:07 PM, Dave Redmon wrote:

My goal is rear index shifting because I'm mostly deaf to improper shifting in friction mode. My LBS tells me my Shimano 7700 9 speed index bar end shifters are not compatible with my Shimano 9 speed XT rear derailer in index mode. Has anyone else had this problem and found a solution? 

Dave in Kansas

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Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Dave Redmon]

Thank you for that clarification, Steve. I'll try again.

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[Joe Bernard]

Going back over your original post, it sounds like it's indexing correctly, just not all the way across the cassette. I think your LBS mounted the bar-end in the wrong orientation and it's not clicking through all 9 steps. Everyone who's used these has made this mistake at least once.

[Chad]

I know Dave well and provided him with the Dura Ace 9-Spd BES (model SL-BS77) and Deore XT RD-M771-SGS long cage and we've been talking about his setup. I suggested he post here for more advice. This setup worked great for me on my old Bombadil. I also used both SRAM and IRD 9-speed cassettes and the matching M771 triple FD with Sugino XD2 triple and 110mm BB with this build I also used those BES with the M772-SGS 9-spd RD and the M782 10-speed triple FD with success on my Sam. Most of this stuff I got from RBW or sought their advice, though they now incorrectly list the RD-M771 and RD-M772 as 10-speed when they are in fact 9. I had my LBS originally set things up, though the mechanic was used to experimenting with slightly unusual combinations. It was always my understanding that most 9-speed and lower MTB and road components usually work together. I believe Dave is also using a Claris double FD with Sugino XD-2 converted to a double with chainguard. Could this combo be causing an issue?

[Chad]

Oh, I forgot I did not use a barrel adjuster and everything worked fine, but both my mechanic and RBW pointed out that the M771 and M772 do not have built in barrel adjusters. I told Dave he might try adding one at the RD to ease in indexing adjustment. Maybe this is also causing a problem. The indexing worked perfect when I used the BES and XT derailleurs. I wish I could help Dave more, but I struggle to get my own derailleurs adjusted perfectly.

[Steve Palincsar]

Inline adjusters work too.  And if you're using downtube shifter boss cable stops, they come with a cable adjuster as well.

On 6/4/19 3:26 PM, Chad wrote:

Oh, I forgot I did not use a barrel adjuster and everything worked fine, but both my mechanic and RBW pointed out that the M771 and M772 do not have built in barrel adjusters.  I told Dave he might try adding one at the RD to ease in indexing adjustment.  Maybe this is also causing a problem.  The indexing worked perfect when I used the BES and XT derailleurs. I wish I could help Dave more, but I struggle to get my own derailleurs adjusted perfectly.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 6/4/19 3:19 PM, Chad wrote:
> I know Dave well and provided him with the Dura Ace 9-Spd BES (model SL-BS77) and Deore XT RD-M771-SGS long cage and we've been talking about his setup. I suggested he post here for more advice. This setup worked great for me on my old Bombadil. I also used both SRAM and IRD 9-speed cassettes and the matching M771 triple FD with Sugino XD2 triple and 110mm BB with this build I also used those BES with the M772-SGS 9-spd RD and the M782 10-speed triple FD with success on my Sam. Most of this stuff I got from RBW or sought their advice, though they now incorrectly list the RD-M771 and RD-M772 as 10-speed when they are in fact 9. I had my LBS originally set things up, though the mechanic was used to experimenting with slightly unusual combinations. It was always my understanding that most 9-speed and lower MTB and road components usually work together. I believe Dave is also using a Claris double FD with Sugino XD-2 converted to a double with chainguard. Could this combo be causing an issue?

The reported problem is that the rear shifter doesn't reach across the
full span of the cassette, so he could be using a pointed stick to shift
the front derailleur and that wouldn't figure into this problem at all.

[Dave Redmon]

Joe, you may be onto something important. With the cable released from the RD and the 9 speed bar end shifter in index mode, I hear only 3 or 4 clicks as I move the shifter from bottom to top. 

I've used similar Shimano BES over the years (mostly 7 speed), so I felt comfortable installing this 9 speed shifter on the right side of the handlebar. 

I took the BES apart and put it back together in the same way I've successfully installed 7 speed units, but I get the same results. Where can I find accurate instructions on how to do this?

Btw, I've removed the barrel adjuster and installed the cable on the side of the bolt nearest me--not behind the bolt as I usually do. (Bill from El Cerrito had advised this in a similar situation some time earlier on this board.) 

This us quite a learning experience for me.

Dave

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019, 9:20 AM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com wrote:

Going back over your original post, it sounds like it's indexing correctly, just not all the way across the cassette. I think your LBS mounted the bar-end in the wrong orientation and it's not clicking through all 9 steps. Everyone who's used these has made this mistake at least once.

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[Bill Lindsay]

Dave

The bar end "pod", the part that goes into the handlebar, has a square shaped protuberence on it.  The first piece you put on is a chrome base piece.  It looks like this:

See how the external shape of that washer piece is round?  See how there's a raised inner part that is round, but it has a bump, a keyway part off that raised part.  See it?  When you put that chrome washer piece onto the square protuberance on the barcon pod, that bump, that key part is pointing DOWN.  It's not totally straight down, because that square thing will have a bit of an angle to it, but it is absolutely the MOST DOWN of the four possible choices.  When the washer is in that position, the shifter will fit onto the washer in only one position.  From there, you should find all your clicks.  You will conclude that you previously had that washer rotated 90 degrees and you lost 90 degrees of your clicks. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 4:12:24 PM UTC-7, Dave Redmon wrote:

Joe, you may be onto something important. With the cable released from the RD and the 9 speed bar end shifter in index mode, I hear only 3 or 4 clicks as I move the shifter from bottom to top. 

I've used similar Shimano BES over the years (mostly 7 speed), so I felt comfortable installing this 9 speed shifter on the right side of the handlebar. 

I took the BES apart and put it back together in the same way I've successfully installed 7 speed units, but I get the same results. Where can I find accurate instructions on how to do this?

Btw, I've removed the barrel adjuster and installed the cable on the side of the bolt nearest me--not behind the bolt as I usually do. (Bill from El Cerrito had advised this in a similar situation some time earlier on this board.) 

This us quite a learning experience for me.

Dave

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019, 9:20 AM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com wrote:

Going back over your original post, it sounds like it's indexing correctly, just not all the way across the cassette. I think your LBS mounted the bar-end in the wrong orientation and it's not clicking through all 9 steps. Everyone who's used these has made this mistake at least once.

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[Joe Bernard]

Ok let's get this thing sorted. This is the 8-speed version, same guts, and this is what you need to see with the shift lever removed. That chrome plate has a notch the shifter fits onto, you want that facing down towards the ground as it sits on a bar. Then pop the shifter on - it will only go the way the notch guides it - and snug the bolt up tight. Make sure the red arrow is firmly pointed to "SIS", put the cable back behind the derailer bolt and you should be shifting 9 gears!

On Tuesday, June 4, 2019 at 4:12:24 PM UTC-7, Dave Redmon wrote:

> Joe, you may be onto something important. With the cable released from the RD and the 9 speed bar end shifter in index mode, I hear only 3 or 4 clicks as I move the shifter from bottom to top. 
>
>
> I've used similar Shimano BES over the years (mostly 7 speed), so I felt comfortable installing this 9 speed shifter on the right side of the handlebar. 
>
>
> I took the BES apart and put it back together in the same way I've successfully installed 7 speed units, but I get the same results. Where can I find accurate instructions on how to do this?
>
>
> Btw, I've removed the barrel adjuster and installed the cable on the side of the bolt nearest me--not behind the bolt as I usually do. (Bill from El Cerrito had advised this in a similar situation some time earlier on this board.) 
>
>
> This us quite a learning experience for me.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 4, 2019, 9:20 AM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com wrote:
> Going back over your original post, it sounds like it's indexing correctly, just not all the way across the cassette. I think your LBS mounted the bar-end in the wrong orientation and it's not clicking through all 9 steps. Everyone who's used these has made this mistake at least once.
>
>
>
> --
>
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>

> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

[Dave Redmon]

Hey Bill--

When I try to follow your directions, the lever is sticking almost straight up just before the jacked up movable part of the mechanism comes up against the fixed part, blocking access to a full joining of the two halves. This doesn't look right to me, but I seem to be unable to "reset/adjust" the movable section so it is oriented correctly. 

Dave

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[Bill Lindsay]

Dave

No problem. Just mail it to me and I’ll fix it and mail it back to you.

Bill

[Dave Redmon]

Thanks for your offer, Bill. Is an internal "reset" of that inner ring  required? (I can't budge it even a little.)  Is that something my LBS can handle?  To be fair, my LBS mech did not install the shifters on the handlebars--I did.

Dave

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[Joseph Bernard]

Dave, can you post a pic of the pieces as you see them now? I/we should be able to tell you how it needs to go back together, or determine something's drastically wrong with it. 

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[sameness]

Here's an exploded diagram for the SL-BS77, and installation instructions for the SL-BS78.

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes, it's an internal reset.  It's either fixable or it isn't.  If it's fixable I'm confident I can fix it.  I have no clue what your LBS can handle.  If you installed it and brought it to me, I would know what to do and would do it in under a minute.  Your mech not fixing it immediately tells me it's permanently broken or your mechanic is not experienced.  If it's not fixable, I'll tell you and send it back.

Bill

On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 11:11:25 AM UTC-7, Dave Redmon wrote:

Thanks for your offer, Bill. Is an internal "reset" of that inner ring  required? (I can't budge it even a little.)  Is that something my LBS can handle?  To be fair, my LBS mech did not install the shifters on the handlebars--I did.

Dave

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019, 12:41 PM Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com wrote:

Dave

No problem. Just mail it to me and I’ll fix it and mail it back to you.

Bill

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[Melanie]

Thanks to Bill, Joe B., and the other participants on this thread I was able to fix the same problem Dave was having. It took no time at all. Too bad I wasted a couple of hours on the issue before reading the thread.
Melanie

[Bill Lindsay]

Did you fix it?  Are you determined to try to fix it yourself, or do you want to remove it and send it to me? 

If you are determined to fix it yourself, then I'll try to describe what I'd do to fix it. 

1.  Shifter is installed on the pod

2. Push the shift lever all the way down

3. remove the shifter, but leave the chrome washer on the pod

4.  What position is the chrome washer in?  Is it in the right position, with the key(bump) pointed DOWN?  Is it rotated 90 degrees clockwise?  Is it rotated 180 degrees?  Is it rotated 270 degrees clockwise? 

5.  If it is in the right position, reinstall the shifter and use it.  If it has the right number of clicks, you're done and it works.  If it doesn't have the right amount of clicks, it's broken.  Throw it away. 

6.  If it is in the wrong position in step 4, rotate the chrome washer 90 degrees counter-clockwise and return to step 1. 

That's it.

Bill

On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 11:11:25 AM UTC-7, Dave Redmon wrote:

Thanks for your offer, Bill. Is an internal "reset" of that inner ring  required? (I can't budge it even a little.)  Is that something my LBS can handle?  To be fair, my LBS mech did not install the shifters on the handlebars--I did.

Dave

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019, 12:41 PM Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com wrote:

Dave

No problem. Just mail it to me and I’ll fix it and mail it back to you.

Bill

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[Dave Redmon]

Hi Bill--

It's at my LBS now and so I forwarded your directions to the owner/mech there who is my friend. So we'll see pretty soon. If it's broken, I think I'll replace it with a 9 speed trigger shifter and be done with BES on this bike, which is a  recent Sam build.

Dave in Kansas

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[Dave Redmon]

The rear bar-end shifter is working properly now. My LBS owner/mech seems to have prevailed. Thank you everyone for your generous tips and advice.

Dave in Kansas